Thank you BioWare for the best expansion yet.

[Shwarzchild]

It proves a lot, actually. Many have been claiming BioWare is just another MMO where the focus was on the endgame and not the story. This is simply not true based on personal experience of beta testing the game and BioWare's pre-launch marketing of the game from October 2008 to December 2011.

 

Whoever said players left because of a lack of endgame? Did you ever consider many left because their stories ended? Certainly some were disappointed by a lack of endgame content, but you have to remember everybody playing at launch was not an MMO fan. In fact, SWTOR had the fastest growing MMO player base to date largely because the game was bringing in fans who were not traditionally MMO players.

 

I know quite a few players who merely purchased SWTOR just to play a class story or two that they were interested in and did not resubscribe. Not everybody was interested in operations, flashpoints, or PvP, which most folks knew next to nothing about those features before launch. It's difficult to understand exactly what SWTOR is if you don't understand the kinds of gamers it was appealing to initially.

 

Interviews are just that: interviews. They are PR stunts as a way of trying to appeal and improve community relations. Ben Irvin represents the SWTOR team, so of course he'll say BioWare needs to improve on group content just because a vocal minority of the community keeps bringing it up on the forums and social media. That doesn't necessarily mean those words will become action. It doesn't even necessarily mean that those features are "equally . . . important" in the eyes of BioWare. Again, metrics know the true answer and a few angry posters on the forums do not.

 

In truth, I think what he was likely alluding to more than anything else is a need to keep players occupied better between chapter releases. That doesn't necessarily mean ops or flashpoints. It could mean a variety of things from more Alliance alerts and content, or just including basic QoL updates. We just don't know and to speculate really won't get us far. I just think it's a fool's errand to believe BioWare will pivot back to "raids and fp content" while lessening on the story as KOTET already refutes that argument.

 

We'll see what BioWare does but it seems as if SWTOR is going a new direction and BioWare isn''t going to compromise on it.

 

From what I can recall from launch to the exodus, a primary reason for players leaving was lack of end game along with bugs. From what I remember the articles saying back then was something along the lines of "man we under estimated the time it would take content to be consumed, and the lesson we learned was that we had to absolutely have a more fleshed out end game to keep people busy"....then enter group finder, more operations, and all that. I'm not entirely being accurate I know, but it's the general jist of what I remember reading every where from pcgamer to kotaku to even Forbes.

[CaptRogue]

From what I can recall from launch to the exodus, a primary reason for players leaving was lack of end game along with bugs. From what I remember the articles saying back then was something along the lines of "man we under estimated the time it would take content to be consumed, and the lesson we learned was that we had to absolutely have a more fleshed out end game to keep people busy"....then enter group finder, more operations, and all that. I'm not entirely being accurate I know, but it's the general jist of what I remember reading every where from pcgamer to kotaku to even Forbes.

 

Yes you're correct Shwarzchild, that's why people left. It's not hearsay, rumors, etc... It was stated by the Devs themselves.

The story was NOT enough.

 

And Aowin, you can throw around your "beta creds" all you want, but like Shwarz said, it doesn't matter; has nothing to do with the state of the game now or if people stayed or not.

(BTW, one of my accounts was closed beta, does that make me important too?? )

[ZanyaCross]

Seconded. Was really happy with the way the last chapter went, twists and turns all over the place that made me go "WHAAAAAAAAA?!" more than once, and a legit challenging and satisfying fight with Arcaan that wasn't needlessly convoluted, but still required a lot more than just facerolling. Edited August 13, 2016 by ZanyaCross

[Aowin]

From what I can recall from launch to the exodus, a primary reason for players leaving was lack of end game along with bugs. From what I remember the articles saying back then was something along the lines of "man we under estimated the time it would take content to be consumed, and the lesson we learned was that we had to absolutely have a more fleshed out end game to keep people busy"....then enter group finder, more operations, and all that. I'm not entirely being accurate I know, but it's the general jist of what I remember reading every where from pcgamer to kotaku to even Forbes.

 

Again, as I already stated, for some a lack of endgame was definitely an issue. You have to remember it wasn't only MMO players who were playing SWTOR. There were three specific groups interested in this game: BioWare fans, MMO fans, and Star Wars fans. This, again, explains why SWTOR was the fastest growing MMO in history because it wasn't just appealing to one demographic, as is the case with many MMOs.

 

You are absolutely right that some left because of a lack of endgame. However, that's just a part of the entire picture. Some folks were only interested in the story and once it was done they left. People bought SWTOR for a variety of reasons and a large chunk of the 700,000 players who did not resubscribe were folks who wanted their KotOR 3 story and left after they had their fill of SWTOR.

[Aowin]

Seconded. Was really happy with the way the last chapter went, twists and turns all over the place that made me go "WHAAAAAAAAA?!" more than once, and a legit challenging and satisfying fight with Arcaan that wasn't needlessly convoluted, but still required a lot more than just facerolling.

 

I was overall very happy with Chapter 16. My only slight issue is the ending of the chapter felt very similar to the ending of Chapter 9. We have more of the Republic and the Empire coming to join the Alliance in the fight against the Eternal Throne. It was a small victory in that we removed Arcann as a threat (for now). But, at the same time I understand why others felt in some ways nothing was really, truly resolved. That's only a slight criticism as I enjoyed the finale and thought BioWare did a great job.

[Shwarzchild]

Again, as I already stated, for some a lack of endgame was definitely an issue. You have to remember it wasn't only MMO players who were playing SWTOR. There were three specific groups interested in this game: BioWare fans, MMO fans, and Star Wars fans. This, again, explains why SWTOR was the fastest growing MMO in history because it wasn't just appealing to one demographic, as is the case with many MMOs.

 

You are absolutely right that some left because of a lack of endgame. However, that's just a part of the entire picture. Some folks were only interested in the story and once it was done they left. People bought SWTOR for a variety of reasons and a large chunk of the 700,000 players who did not resubscribe were folks who wanted their KotOR 3 story and left after they had their fill of SWTOR.

 

I think you missed the meaning of the point I was getting at as it related to your previous arguments.

[Aowin]

I think you missed the meaning of the point I was getting at as it related to your previous arguments.

 

I understood your "meaning" entirely. You were claiming the "determining factor" for why SWTOR lost two-thirds of its subscriber base was "a lack of endgame content." I have disagreed with your assertion multiple times as that is a superficial understanding of what actually happened at the time. I think the only one failing to understand the subtleties of how diverse this community is and why it's not just comprised of MMO players who want endgame is you.

[Shwarzchild]

I understood your "meaning" entirely. You were claiming the "determining factor" for why SWTOR lost two-thirds of its subscriber base was "a lack of endgame content." I have disagreed with your assertion multiple times as that is a superficial understanding of what actually happened at the time. I think the only one failing to understand the subtleties of how diverse this community is and why it's not just comprised of MMO players who want endgame is you.

 

Saying "a determining factor" does not mean "the determining factor". Following that statement with saying that neglect of end game is potentially a risky strategy based on history. Your arguments are skewed it seems to indicate that story was the determining factor based on your general experience, and could be argued that your understanding is equally as superficial.

 

Here's my original post. Reread it for understanding:

 

It's interesting people are bringing beta into things thinking that it proves anything. It only means that swtor started at X, and was forced to evolve into Y and now Z. If I recall correctly, a determining factor in players leaving by the masses after release was a lack of end game. It was shown then that alone story does not carry this product. Maybe it shows it differently now. I don't know. I don't pay attention to metrics anymore. Secondarily, Ben Irvin just came out on Bad Feeling (which was a great interview btw if anyone hasn't listened to it yet in its entirety) admitting that repeatable content and repeatable group content was a thing they absolutely had to improve upon.

 

So while claiming this return to story is or is not a good thing, it seems as if there are facts that say end game is potentially equally as important in maintaining a healthy game population thus leaving portions of it neglected (whether its GSF, PvP, Operations, Flashpoints, etc.) is a dangerous tactic.

Edited August 13, 2016 by Shwarzchild

[Aowin]

Saying "a determining factor" does not mean "the determining factor". Following that statement with saying that neglect of end game is potentially a risky strategy based on history.

 

You can play semantics or recognize that maybe all 700,000 of those subscribers did not leave because of "a lack of endgame." The difference between you and me is I recognize there are multiple communities and not all of them left because of "a lack of endgame." You only seem to recognize one community as existing and repeating the same statements over and over. Again, you are simplifying what is a very diverse body of players. Don't take offense, just recognize your wrongdoing and move on.

 

I never once claimed BioWare should "neglect . . . end game." I merely stated that not everybody who plays SWTOR (then and now) cares about endgame, specifically operations. We can argue all night whether a vocal minority on the forums complaining about group content is really as large of a population as some claim or we can let BioWare's metrics do the talking and determine what content should be made.

 

My point is, and will continue to be, that BioWare should focus on story because that is what separates it from every other MMO on the market. That doesn't mean BioWare should only do story, but that should be its primary focus.

Edited August 13, 2016 by Aowin

[Shwarzchild]

You can play semantics or recognize that maybe all 700,000 of those subscribers did not leave because of "a lack of endgame." The difference between you and me is I recognize there are multiple communities and not all of them left car about endgame. You only seem to recognize one community as existing and repeating the same statements over and over. Again, you are simplifying what is a very diverse body of players. Don't take offense, just recognize your wrongdoing and move on.

 

I never once claimed BioWare should "neglect . . . end game." I merely stated that not everybody who plays SWTOR (then and now) cares about endgame, specifically operations. We can argue all night whether a vocal minority on the forums complaining about group content is really as large of a population as some claim or we can let BioWare's metrics do the talking and determine what content should be made.

 

My point is, and will continue to be, that BioWare should focus on story because that is what separates it from every other MMO on the market. That doesn't mean BioWare should only do story, but that should be its primary focus.

 

I edited my post to kind of flesh out my thoughts if you haven't seen it. But you are definitely ascribing characteristics to me that you really don't know if they are true or not. And, this further makes me agree with Gabigol that your understanding of things might be a bit more subjective than you may want to believe.

[Aowin]

I edited my post to kind of flesh out my thoughts if you haven't seen it. But you are definitely ascribing characteristics to me that you really don't know if they are true or not. And, this further makes me agree with Gabigol that your understanding of things might be a bit more subjective than you may want to believe.

 

Funny how that works since you are actually the one "ascribing characteristics." I'm just trying to get you to admit that everybody who left did not leave purely because of "a lack of endgame." At this point I recognize you are too stubborn and are not going to budge, so I'll just leave it at that. You are free to believe endgame is as crucial to this game's success as you seem to believe purely based on your own subjective bias. I'll stick to metrics and what BioWare actually develops as that determines what most people actually care about.

[Shwarzchild]

Funny how that works since you are actually the one "ascribing characteristics." I'm just trying to get you to admit that everybody who left did not leave purely because of "a lack of endgame." At this point I recognize you are too stubborn and are not going to budge, so I'll just leave it at that. You are free to believe endgame is as crucial to this game's success as you seem to believe purely based on your own subjective bias. I'll stick to metrics and what BioWare actually develops as that determines what most people actually care about.

 

...you're literally trying to get me to say something I didn't say. You do understand that right? I mean trying to bully me into saying what I don't mean won't change things.

 

I'll try to revamp what I said so you might understand

 

I find it interesting that [you] are pulling Beta into this discussion. I have the opinion that pulling Beta testing into what we have now is ill advised because the game has gone through changes to its direction over its 5 year period of existence. But, if we are to pull in experiences from the beginning portion of this game's life, it should be mentioned that among the [700,000 people who unsubscribed] many did so because of a lack of end game as well as bugs within the game that took too long to fix as reported by sources such as Kotaku, pcgamer, and an interview with James Ohlen if memory serves me correctly. While the game may focus on story as it's selling point, and have demonstrated an overall switch to story only with this expansion we just finished it should be noted that history has shown story did not support this game when originally. They had to adapt their model to include a heavier focus on MMO portions (whether it be pvp, operations, gsf, etc). This has been further articulated that the model needs to change back to include mmo bits as stated by Ben Irvin in his bad feeling podcast interview.

 

Thus, based on historical evidence to show that mmo bits are important, KOTFE may not be seen as the best expansion in this game's history.

[Aowin]

...

 

You are claiming my argument is flawed because this game has changed "direction over its 5 year period of existence." Yet, you then claim that because of alleged issues of "a lack of end game" five years ago, those issues are still relevant today even though the game has changed "direction over its 5 year period of existence." Do you not see how silly you look that my point doesn't apply because the game has changed yet yours apparently still does even though the game has changed?

 

You are assuming a lot from Ben Irvin's remarks considering he only stated BioWare needs to do better with group content. He never states what kind nor does he say its equally as important if not more so for SWTOR's success. You are building inferences based on nothing other than your own personal preference for operations more than likely. Irvin could very well mean they need to do a better job with the kinds of group oriented content that KOTFE released. Until we actually know what kind of group content BioWare is working on, you are merely assuming what you want to believe and nothing more.

[SketchyBluntWrap]

It makes me laugh over how much you guys love the new expansion. Good for you guys! I for one thought that it has been a complete ****** expanaion, like bioware said we are bring epic class storyline back to the game! You're choices will matter to what will happen! Are you daft ****s brainwashed? All that this expansion proves is that choices DONT matter and they dont give a **** how a story goes its all the same **** outcome i for one am done with this game you dumb ***** keep paying your money to such a worthless *********** game and company as bioware and have a nice *********** day halfwits. Hopefully i dont run into half you fuvktards in the next star wars mmo

[Aowin]

It makes me laugh over how much you guys love the new expansion. Good for you guys! I for one thought that it has been a complete ****** expanaion, like bioware said we are bring epic class storyline back to the game! You're choices will matter to what will happen! Are you daft ****s brainwashed? All that this expansion proves is that choices DONT matter and they dont give a **** how a story goes its all the same **** outcome i for one am done with this game you dumb ***** keep paying your money to such a worthless *********** game and company as bioware and have a nice *********** day halfwits. Hopefully i dont run into half you fuvktards in the next star wars mmo

 

BioWare never stated that your choices would have immediate impact in the story or in any of the chapters of KOTFE, for that matter. What BioWare did state is that your choices would matter, and we knew before KOTFE released that the story would go far beyond these first 16 chapters. Also, while many people like to say none of our choices mattered, we already know that your choices do affect whether Koth stays or leaves and whether he decides to steal the gravestone or not.

 

You also have the choice to kill Aric or Kaliyo if you choose so based on their failed mission to recover the GEMINI frequency. We even know that all the main characters have a checklist based on the choices you make and whether they approve or not, alluding to the fact that these accumulation of choices will lead to major consequences for these particular companions (Lana, Koth, Senya, etc.) I'm all for players critiquing what they did not like, but lets not play ignorance and state BioWare didn't provide us with any choice.

[Sommyboy]

I guess you are new to BioWare games. BioWare Storytelling is a choice-driven experience where the choices you make throughout the game not only impact yourself, but others. It has been a staple of BioWare since Baldur's Gate all the way to the present.

 

Oh you mean the famous BioWare storytelling from mass effect 3 where 2 biggest choices from previous games didn't matter at all? Dragon Age Inqisition where the choices were maliciously presented as important (Do you want to help your commander get rid of his drug addiction?) but didn't play any role in the later game at all? Or the whole kotfe which was made specificaly for LS jedi knight and doesnt make sense for any other class and choices? Sounds like real choice-driven experiences to me. I'm just hoping Witcher 3 GOTY, which demolishes latest bioware games in terms of story, character, and your impact on the world, gonna sell even better to prove to BioWare that it's time to change.

Edited August 13, 2016 by Sommyboy

[Aowin]

Oh you mean the famous BioWare storytelling from mass effect 3 where 2 biggest choices from previous games didn't matter at all? Dragon Age Inqisition where the choices were maliciously presented as important (Do you want to help your commander get rid of his drug addiction?) but didn't play any role in the later game at all? Or the whole kotfe which was made specificaly for LS jedi knight and doesnt make sense for any other class and choices? Sounds like real choice-driven experiences to me. I'm just hoping Witcher 3 GOTY, which demolishes latest bioware games in terms of story, character, and your impact on the world, gonna sell even better to prove to BioWare that it's time to change.

 

Of course we can completely disregard that in the ME trilogy your choices can impact whether most of your companions are living or not. It's also worth pointing out that every choice you make doesn't have to have large and sweeping consequences as that's not even remotely realistic. The Commander Cullen side story was merely that, a side story. I agree that it's obvious KOTFE was written for a Jedi Knight and I'm hoping BioWare can do a better job at crafting a story that works for the seven other classes as well.

 

I love CDPR and TW3. I've been a huge fan of CDPR since TW1 released in 2007 and CDPR is in many ways the new BioWare. That being said, BioWare learned from BGS with Skyrim when making DAI and I will not be surprised if they've also learned from CDPR and other studios while making MEA. However, comparing an MMORPG to a single player RPG is already erroneous to start as they are two completely different kinds of beasts.

[Sommyboy]

I love CDPR and TW3. I've been a huge fan of CDPR since TW1 released in 2007 and CDPR is in many ways the new BioWare. That being said, BioWare learned from BGS with Skyrim when making DAI and I will not be surprised if they've also learned from CDPR and other studios while making MEA. However, comparing an MMORPG to a single player RPG is already erroneous to start as they are two completely different kinds of beasts.

 

We're only comparing stories and characters, since that was kotfe was adveristed and delivered as. I want them to finally learn and to put some effort into swtor (I don't care about MEA yet) instead of giving us the same tropes and cliches over and over again. Hell, if they would only provide a story content thats the same quality as the vanilla class stories are.

[Aowin]

We're only comparing stories and characters, since that was kotfe was adveristed and delivered as. I want them to finally learn and to put some effort into swtor (I don't care about MEA yet) instead of giving us the same tropes and cliches over and over again. Hell, if they would only provide a story content thats the same quality as the vanilla class stories are.

 

Well, in my personal opinion, all of the vanilla class stories were below the storytelling standards of BioWare's single player games, particularly KotOR 1. I actually understand why BioWare wants to focus on just telling one story instead of eight because quality can trump quantity and generally does. BioWare just needs to make a story that's more accommodating to every class going forward.

 

I think KOTET and future BioWare expansions have the capacity to be great storytelling adventuers. BioWare just needs to keep honing, refining, and improving to get to that level of storytelling prowess we are used to and expect from a BioWare game. Since Drew Karpyshyn (Lead Writer on KotOR 1, ME 1, and ME 2) is back at BioWare Austin, I'm very hopeful for the quality of storytelling getting much better in SWTOR going forward.

[Keta]

Seconded. Was really happy with the way the last chapter went, twists and turns all over the place that made me go "WHAAAAAAAAA?!" more than once, and a legit challenging and satisfying fight with Arcaan that wasn't needlessly convoluted, but still required a lot more than just facerolling.

 

For some of us there wasn't a single twist plot-wise in the last chapter of season 1. And the final fight? Pick up the glaringly obvious shield, charge it and then bash away. wash, rinse, repeat. It was actually far easier than using autoattack.

 

The final chapter did not have to be that way. The could have brought Excalibur -- umm I mean the Gravestone- out for another fight before returning it to the Lady in the Lake, and still provided story development that left people knowing more and wanting more. They could have had the Senya betrayal handled far differently and accomplished the same thing. They painted themselves into a corner with Arcann now. There's nothing they can do with him that will not be forced. Same with Koth and those who chose (intentionally or otherwise) to have him leave the alliance.

 

Season 2 needs to step up big time.

[Keta]

It makes me laugh over how much you guys love the new expansion.

 

To misquote Jack Sparrow, "But you ARE talking about me?"

 

In my case I find the discussion entertaining. And more so than grinding yet another character through KOTFE or the portions of the LvD event i despise (pvp). Oh and my game time is limited for a few more days anyway.

[Aowin]

...

I actually enjoyed the fight mechanics with Arcann, myself. You can bring down most of his health without even using the shield. It's far more interesting than just a simple button spam until his health bar reaches zero. That was virtually every other boss fight in KOTFE.

 

I was somewhat hoping the Gravestone would be destroyed just because it's an obvious plot device to keep the story moving forward. I'd like to see that go away to force BioWare to have to come up with better methods for how to combat this seemingly unstoppable Eternal Fleet. The Rebel Alliance in the OT never had a super weapon and were able to eventually defeat the Galactic Empire just fine.

 

We can't say whether or not Arcann has been painted into a corner. On the contrary, I can see your decision to shoot down his ship or not having two very divergent paths. If you chose to show mercy and Senya is grateful, Arcann could potentially become an ally in the future. However, if you chose to try and shoot down his ship in an attempt to kill Arcann and his mother, I could see that solidifying Arcann as an enemy. Whether he were to join his sister or not again is an entirely different story, but I think allegiances are absolutely determined by the choices you make.

 

As far as Koth is concerned, it's too soon to know what repercussions there will be with him joyriding around in the Gravestone for Dark Side players. What we do know is he is unlikely to ever trust Senya or Arcann, so depending on where their allegiance ultimately falls will likely affect Koth's allegiance as well.

[Keta]

As far as Koth is concerned, it's too soon to know what repercussions there will be with him joyriding around in the Gravestone for Dark Side players. What we do know is he is unlikely to ever trust Senya or Arcann, so depending on where their allegiance ultimately falls will likely affect Koth's allegiance as well.

 

My full LS Jedi chose to get rid of Koth as did my full DS Sith Assassin. The Jedi did because Koth exhibits zero compassion for anything beyond Zakuul. The DS Sith did because he's after vengeance and nothing more. Saving the galaxy is a side effect. The choices offered are neither LS nor DS. Incidentally they had very different conversations when Koth returned. The Jedi harbors no grudge and gave the "good to see you" response. The Sith basically told him to kill himself or she would. The only other character who's done the chapter kept Koth and I did that just to see what difference it makes ... none.

[Aowin]

...

 

I wouldn't say that's entirely true. In fact, the reason Koth deserted from the Zakuul military to begin with is because he didn't want to kill innocent civilians in the Core Worlds. Don't get me wrong, he certainly seems to put Zakuul first as much as he can. However, he's not completely devoid of compassion and empathy for other people. Koth and Senya were both pretty upset when the Eternal Fleet bombarded five planets that were not Zakuul as an example to the Alliance.

 

I don't know about that. The fact that Koth leaves and goes off the radar at all is pretty troubling and was already foreshadowing what he might do with the Gravestone. The fact that he actually stole the Gravestone is a pretty major blow to the Alliance if BioWare actually makes that a huge factor in the story going forward. We can't say for sure that ultimately nothing will come of this just because some folks still have Koth and the Gravestone.

[Sommyboy]

Well, in my personal opinion, all of the vanilla class stories were below the storytelling standards of BioWare's single player games, particularly KotOR 1. I actually understand why BioWare wants to focus on just telling one story instead of eight because quality can trump quantity and generally does. BioWare just needs to make a story that's more accommodating to every class going forward.

 

Im currently playing as a Bounty Hunter for the first time. Even though the game is linear there I actually feel like im in charge here. I can kill stuff, freeze stuff, spare them, I always have 3 dialogue options that always lend different answer, might even affect hows the rest of the dialogue is operated. When I accomplish something I feel like I acomoplished something on my own. KoTFE on the other hand, everyone calls you commander and treat you like some kind of amazing leader but I don't remember making ONE memorable decision in the whole expansion. You don't have ANY input on whats going on. All I remember is being a fetch slave and yes guy for all the cliche companions I met on the way. All i remember is shooting at Arcann with cutscene pistol even though, with help of marr and Satale, I made a giant *** minigun for that purpose only. As a Sith warrior i can chose to kill people or torture them every few minutes, in KoTFE I'm just a big talk loser who can't do stuff. I'm forced to coopare with shady robot that will betray you that (shockingly!) betrays you for no real purpose whatsoever. Quality over quantity? I'm willing to say KotFE is story-wise worst thing that ever got spit out with BioWare name on it.

Edited August 13, 2016 by Sommyboy