Why are tanks being punished for progressing into harder content?

[Shrodinher]

I cleared all 4.0 NiMs cept Styrak (but it's dps/coordination/luck fight anyway) as tank, and, dunno, maybe half as healer. If I ever had sub-80k tank in group when healing, I'd just quit there and then. It's simply not viable if you want to mitigate stress. Over 8 months of 4.x, I had exactly 0 cases of a wipe due to insufficient healing. Wipes because someone got globalled or because healers were busy with improperly geared tank? Tons of em, every day.

 

Can you survive most of spikes with low hp? Yes you can. But truth is, getting extra 4k hp can decrease chance of dying due to bad mitigation rolls in half. When will you understand, what's going on when everyone does their job is. Not. Relevant. Do you go in nim operation and one shot every boss? If yes then stick to your gearing. Did you wipe because someone died? Was it a tank? Your gearing is probably wrong. Was it someone else? You do realize, that if healer can't heal dps, say, standing in stupid, because tank got a nasty spike and needs to be topped off, it could've been mitigated by having extra hp pool, allowing healers take a break from oh-so-precious-one-bad-roll-and-on-a-brisk-of-death tank?

 

Tanks' job is NOT minimizing damage taken. Tanks' job (except obvious stuff like mechanics/threat/etc) is to minimize chance of him or anyone else dying. Once cooldowns are done with, endurance is only reliable tool to do that. On one night on boss like Brontes or Bestia extra hp pool will allow you to save and salvage more **** ups than high mitigation over all raids you could've possibly had in swtor's history. Mitigation brings overall damage down, denying your healers top of charts and making your numbers sexier. Unfortunately, when you need lots, lots of healing in short amount of time, it doesn't matter if you're 224 or high endurance or maybe even full crit/power.

[UberSamoyed]

Shrodinher,

 

Your viewpoint sounds decidedly "Sin tanky."

Edited June 16, 2016 by UberSamoyed

[Zero_Unlimited]

I cleared all 4.0 NiMs cept Styrak (but it's dps/coordination/luck fight anyway) as tank, and, dunno, maybe half as healer. If I ever had sub-80k tank in group when healing, I'd just quit there and then.

 

If you quit the moment you saw a sub 80k hp tank then how do you know that he wouldn't have been fine with max mitigation? Sounds like you left before you ha the chance to make that observation. Obviously biased.

[ArcAngelSeth]

Why do people still say this?

 

Blocking, or more precisely, mitigating damage is meaningless if you cannot survive the spikes. At some point you take 2-3 hits in a row. The damage profiles of many NM encounters - and a couple HM ones - in no way align with, as you say, min-max gear.

 

And, frankly, on the others it doesn't matter.

 

Tanks that are actually killing difficult content do not gear for highest possible mitigation -- or they wouldn't be killing it.

 

uhm...you're stupid. And if you're doing NiM right and having a PT eat all the spikes, mitigation should not be a problem. Tanking is the easiest part of NiM content, cause all you have to do is hold aggro and pop a cd if healers are stressed from dps standing in dumb. This whole topic is stupid, tanks are completely fine where they are. 220 Bmods give more then enough health to survive spikes, and if you're not retarded you can force mitigation.

[Narudan]

uhm...you're stupid. And if you're doing NiM right and having a PT eat all the spikes, mitigation should not be a problem. Tanking is the easiest part of NiM content, cause all you have to do is hold aggro and pop a cd if healers are stressed from dps standing in dumb. This whole topic is stupid, tanks are completely fine where they are. 220 Bmods give more then enough health to survive spikes, and if you're not retarded you can force mitigation.

 

What's your point? You argue the same thing, Mitigation is not a problem and B-mods are a good way to get more health which is important to survive spikes.

If you're not feeling stressed out enough when tanking NiM, try doing more damage.

[Island_Jedi]

I think the point to make here is that as a new tank, gearing for endurance over mitigation might be more beneficial. But, as you learn the mechanics and fights(and tricks), you'll realize that many of these massive spikes can be flat out avoided. Regardless, the days of gearing for hi/mid/low are gone. But, it's not a terrible idea to have some endurance gear in the inventory if you think you're getting spiked down too fast. That hasn't happened to me, but each group's composition and ability is different. There's nothing wrong with that...at all.

 

There is no catch-all "best" way to gear for Nim. Why? Because there's far too many human variables in play. And, in the end, it's fairly inconsequential. Nailing mechanics and avoiding "avoidable" damage is what makes a good Nim tank. Nim content can be cleared employing a variety of gearing methods. Nim content cannot be cleared unless you hit your marks.

 

Want to be a great Nim tank? Gear towards your group's strength's. Nail mechanics flawlessly until you're not only aware of the tank's job, but everyone else's. And, learn all the tricks. If there's any mantra to tanking, then that's it.

 

You forgot how alacrity can tremendously increase you're avoid chance which runs parallel to your defense chance. See as tanks stack alacrity they gain a tremendous boon! THE NEWLY DISCOVERED AVOID CHANCE which not only affects M/R but also affects F/T its fantastic. Bring an alacrity adrenal for greater effect!

Edited June 18, 2016 by Island_Jedi

[gabigool]

What's your point? You argue the same thing, Mitigation is not a problem and B-mods are a good way to get more health which is important to survive spikes.

If you're not feeling stressed out enough when tanking NiM, try doing more damage.

 

Yeah I'm kinda trying to figure out what he's even talking about.

[Seaturkey]

I keep seeing players saying the same thing over and over, "You can just use 220 b-mods." Completely ignoring the fact that you shouldn't have to. Players, especially tanks, shouldn't be required to wear lesser gear than DPS/heals in order to succeed in HM/NiM operations in the first place. Yet BW does nothing to address the issues current plaguing tanks.

 

Players shouldn't be required to make up for the Dev's inability to properly itemize tanking gear. The Dev's are doing it wrong and they need to start holding themselves accountable for it.

[Bonzenaattori]

As the title implies, it seems to me that BW has decided that tanks should not be rewarded for progressing. Instead, they apparently feel its better to take away endurance when facing content that hits harder? I don't understand it. If BW doesn't want to increase endurance for tanks on higher gear, fine, but why lower it? Wouldn't it make more sense to keep the tank's endurance levels the same?

 

I would think that comms gear, which is the source of B-mods, and therefore much easier to achieve would be the floor for a certain tier of content (SM/HM/NiM) with the Unassembled drops giving gear with increased def/shield/absorb while maintaining the endurance levels of B-mods, or atleast keeping them close enough so as to not feel like being nerfed for earning the "better" gear.

 

I just don't get it. What's the logic here?

In short - Because the role is easy - You dont need to secrete your gear with endurance (at least I've never had to)

Instead you should be analysing key points where you struggle and save your cooldowns for that moment.

 

I'm noticing this trend, where tanks i run with (both in pugs and in pre-arranged groups) save their cooldowns for the moment they come to the realization that they are dying, or they're healers cannot top them off.

People have this dumb idea that the whole dichotomy is supposed to be you take the exact same damage, you receive the exact same heals, and you live, you hold aggro, you kill the boss and you win loot.

You can't be serious, the boss is supposed to try and kill you?

 

Perhaps you need to play better or work harder at it, but complaining about the gear & stat composition is a lazy way to say that you can't figure it out for yourself.

Edited June 18, 2016 by Bonzenaattori

[LudhaninRolgge]

You forgot how alacrity can tremendously increase you're avoid chance which runs parallel to your defense chance. See as tanks stack alacrity they gain a tremendous boon! THE NEWLY DISCOVERED AVOID CHANCE which not only affects M/R but also affects F/T its fantastic. Bring an alacrity adrenal for greater effect!

 

What are you talking about ?

[Island_Jedi]

What are you talking about ?

 

Iam talking about how alacrity is the highest stat you should stack as a tank as it affects each class differently. In the case of tanks it raises their avoid chance. Avoid chance not only works against all damage types it allows you to win you're loot roles much easier. It can even One shot Revan if its high enough. Do not underestimate the power of alacrity. Make sure you save you're alacrity adrenals for the loot rolls though.

Edited June 20, 2016 by Island_Jedi

[Shrodinher]

If you quit the moment you saw a sub 80k hp tank then how do you know that he wouldn't have been fine with max mitigation? Sounds like you left before you ha the chance to make that observation. Obviously biased.

 

Because I quit precisely because I had more than enough experience with improperly geared tanks in the months passed? Imbecile who thought 220/224 full-mitigation pt is tankier than sin (and got utterly rekt on dread guards). Juggernaut who swapped to full fort augs for kephass (which immediately turned him dying to spikes into a boss kill). Plenty of others.

 

In short - Because the role is easy - You dont need to secrete your gear with endurance (at least I've never had to)

Instead you should be analysing key points where you struggle and save your cooldowns for that moment.

 

I'm noticing this trend, where tanks i run with (both in pugs and in pre-arranged groups) save their cooldowns for the moment they come to the realization that they are dying, or they're healers cannot top them off.

People have this dumb idea that the whole dichotomy is supposed to be you take the exact same damage, you receive the exact same heals, and you live, you hold aggro, you kill the boss and you win loot.

You can't be serious, the boss is supposed to try and kill you?

 

Perhaps you need to play better or work harder at it, but complaining about the gear & stat composition is a lazy way to say that you can't figure it out for yourself.

Go on, give us a layout of 100% cooldown coverage for Brontes -- finger phase starting on 2 stacks on Hands -> 6..7 + 7 slams in burn on any tank class (hint: you can't do that, unless you are veng or dec specced, and you will eat slams without cooldowns up and, if it's not your shielding day, you'll die).

 

You know, just an example for one very irrelevant fight, yeah?

 

What are you talking about ?

 

Translation: "kids, don't smoke as many deathsticks as I do!"

[UberSamoyed]

Brontes is certainly one of the hardest Nim bosses in the game, and especially hard on PT's. I kinda place that one as an exception to the rule, but that's just me. It's a fight that is made for Sins.

 

Regardless, I totally agree that not having 224 B-mods or endurance on relics is just plain wrong. I'd love to hear the reasoning behind that from the Devs.

 

Still, my PT runs 220 B-mods and the rest 224 with no spike down issues. If you're running double Sins, then yeah...you gotta make it work with more endurance. But, that's a requirement for a specific combination of tanks. And, don't forget that the groups overall ability to hit mechanics, dps, and heal make a significant contribution to one's tanking success. If any is less than elite, then you're going to have to adjust your gearing and playstyle to make it work. I guess it's just a difference of opinion on general tank gearing. Based on the numerous variables in play, both can be "right." It doesn't really matter much anyways. If you're consistently clearing, then you're golden.

Edited June 22, 2016 by UberSamoyed

[Shrodinher]

Brontes is certainly one of the hardest Nim bosses in the game, and especially hard on PT's. I kinda place that one as an exception to the rule, but that's just me. It's a fight that is made for Sins.

 

Regardless, I totally agree that not having 224 B-mods or endurance on relics is just plain wrong. I'd love to hear the reasoning behind that from the Devs.

 

Still, my PT runs 220 B-mods and the rest 224 with no spike down issues. If you're running double Sins, then yeah...you gotta make it work with more endurance. But, that's a requirement for a specific combination of tanks. And, don't forget that the groups overall ability to hit mechanics, dps, and heal make a significant contribution to one's tanking success. If any is less than elite, then you're going to have to adjust your gearing and playstyle to make it work. I guess it's just a difference of opinion on general tank gearing. Based on the numerous variables in play, both can be "right." It doesn't really matter much anyways. If you're consistently clearing, then you're golden.

 

You just don't get what I'm talking about all the time. It's not about how "elite" my group is... no matter how good/bad others (and me) are, **** ups happen. We have pulls with textbook execution, we have pulls where everything that can go wrong, goes wrong. My gearing method (high endurance and sick 70% shield) allows to survive better when **** hits the fan and potentially salvage more such situations, while losing... umm... possibility to get 99% rating from starparse? Or, speaking game theory, I prefer to use strategies that have the least outcomes with "negative" payoff, without even looking at the value of it when it's positive; I'll probably get rekt in Las Vegas but hey, losing at blackjack doesn't hit you for 70k Seriously, give me one scenario where non-bis mitigation can matter and I'll re-evaluate my principles, until then I see them mathematically... well, not correct, just less wrong.

[UberSamoyed]

I totally get what you're saying. We just disagree on what is optimal for ourselves. And, from our experiences, what is optimal for everyone else. I'm pretty sure this isn't the first mitigation versus endurance debate on these forums. And remember, I'm not arguing for full mitigation, just a hybrid where you build up endurance to a certain level and then add mitigation.

 

As for Starparse ratings, it unfairly groups Nim tanks with Hm tanks. So...no one is really getting a stellar rating regardless of what you do or what you wear...barring fights that you can super cheese. Most Nim fights are more punishing than Hm, well...except for Raptus. So...Starparse ratings are essentially worthless. It's great info and such, but that's were it ends.

 

I ran both gearing theories in 4.0. I started out with high endurance and shaved off a bit each time I realized I wasn't coming close to getting spiked down. Eventually, I ended up with all B-mods plus 224's. I still carry that old endurance gear around with me so I haven't abandoned the theory completely. I just haven't found a reason to wear it. If we wipe, then it's almost always because someone missed a mechanic that caused a wipe that no gearing could overcome.

 

From my experiences, starting out with a high endurance build is probably optimum. Then, you whittle off endurance and add mitigation until you find that sweet spot for yourself and your group. I mean, if you aren't getting spiked down or hitting a danger zone with your health pool, then you're just wasting that endurance instead of applying that percentage of a percentage on mitigation. Either theory is viable. You hedge your bets towards surviving the worst case scenarios. I'd rather hedge mine on what I perceive as typical. It's like arguing whether medium rare or rare is optimal for steaks. It's a matter of taste. I prefer rare, but don't trust people enough to order it and hit the right temps. I guess I'm an endurance stacking steak eater? My wife enjoys the burnt mess of well done w/ some sort of steak sauce which is sacrilege to my Texas heart, but I darn don't tell her she's wrong. The steak gets eaten just the same, I just die a little inside every time I witness it.

 

As for the nitty gritty of theory-crafting tank gearing, it's actually even more complicated than what we have discussed. Depending on the damage types of each boss, one approach may hold an advantage over another. More importantly, if we're truly trying to define what is precisely optimum for tanks, then one would need to set an optimum endurance number (for each class) and gear accordingly...for each boss. The variables in play make that exercise virtually impossible. It also smacks of effort. So...we run with what we're comfortable with...and blame the healers and dps if we wipe because any good tank knows it's never really our fault.

 

At least we can agree on that?

Edited June 22, 2016 by UberSamoyed

[AdjeYo]

So, in conlusion always blame the healers? I can get behind that definitely

[UberSamoyed]

So, in conlusion always blame the healers? I can get behind that definitely

 

Every now and then, blame a random dps to throw them off your tracks.

[Diviciacus]

If TEC is to prepare people for group content dont be surprised if they do away with the trinity.

 

Ironically, Guild Wars 2, which always touted that it abolished the trinity, had to add in a dedicated healing spec when it introduced raids in Heart of Thorns.

 

Unless damage taken is absolutely trivial, there has to be SOMEONE healing or people die. You could get away with not needing a tank spec tank (in GW2 anyway, since it has a player-controlled dodge mechanic), but someone has to be there to prop up the health bars; most classes in any MMO just don't have enough self healing to survive anything drastic.

[Shrodinher]

And I do not argue for full endurance even though I consider it a slightly better option than full mitigation

 

I know about Starparse... point was, difference in rating is only noticeable "negative" thing one may notice from gearing for extra endurance. As long as you use cooldowns somewhat properly and use tank stats, there's no possible way to gear yourself to become "unhealable". I even have an assassin with 104.7k hp (only missing 224 relics for max possible endurance) that I bring in raids for fun (well, I also bring it for Warlords, but it's pure "because I can" rather than necessity). Main build is 224/220b/224 (with 2p 186), left side Mk2/Mk26.

 

Theory to get gear for single bosses is so casual. Try modelling particular fragments of encounters, minmax for it and then hot-swap mods between phases, then you're a pro. I mean, UI in this game is so ****ed that since 4.4 or so game randomly freezes for ~10..15 seconds when I mouseover items, but it's surely can be endured by healers, if not, their fault

 

P.S. It's a tank's fault if you aren't fast enough to blame healers/dps and they get a chance to blame you first. Better macro it

[GhOsTPrOz]

I know this thread is kinda dead but I am gonna throw my spin on this. In my opinion everyone thus far has misunderstood the OP

 

Why doesnt 224 gear give tanks more endurance?

 

I main a tank and personally I gear very awkwardly and almost no one agrees with my methods but my healers do not complain and my dtps is rarely above 4K even taking double adds on NiM bestia. But the point I think the OP is trying to make, however you gear your tank, max mitigation or max endurance or some hybrid in between, wouldn't it be nice if they gave you more endurance?

 

Example: My vanguard is fully geared the way I want him to be and the stats look like this:

(Yes I am aware this is a weird stat pool but I like it)

Sheild- 2056

Defense- 1159

Absorb- 992

Health- 82593

 

Wouldn't it be nicer if I just had like 88k health on top of all my stats allocated as I desire?

 

If you ask me tanks should have a passive 5% more health maybe even 10%. Arguably this would make healing even easier but it would make tanks have more appropriate health. It's really sad when the fully 224 geared commando on my raid team has 83k health which is more then me and the other tank!

 

I made a full endurance set for lawls to see, full 220 vender pieces with 224 armorings and full endurance augments and this was my stat pool

 

Defense- 2500ish

Absorb- 700ish

Sheild- 800ish

Health- 102000ish

 

I have done a few test runs of this tank, the dtps is very high, but I also find myself being able to laugh at things. Like on SM xeno I can stand through the full thermal tolerance with reactive Sheild up and live with 0 heals received.

 

Anyway, tanks having passively more endurance would be really nice, I think that's what the OP was saying, and I agree.

[Chiltonium]

Higher quality gear would include higher damage mitigation, Defense, Absorb mods, not higher Endurance.

 

Having higher HP is not what is desired but the ability to block damage is.

 

Try tor-tank.com for min/maxing gear.

 

This. Tanks do exactly what they're supposed to. Not die, with the hp they have. Hell in pvp, it takes AGES to kill one compared to a DPS. Like, good freaking GOD does it take forever.

[UberSamoyed]

This. Tanks do exactly what they're supposed to. Not die, with the hp they have. Hell in pvp, it takes AGES to kill one compared to a DPS. Like, good freaking GOD does it take forever.

 

And this is the crux of the issue. Attempting to find some balance between a PVP and PVE tank via the same gear/mechanics is a flawed exercise that has only been exacerbated over time.

 

It would take a ton of effort to fix it. Sadly, it's not going to happen. Heck, I'd settle for a 224 B-mod and call it a day.

 

There's a ton of work to be done on balancing/optimizing endgame content and gear. It's not just tanks either. Regardless, at this point, most of us are just hoping for some new content. Beggars can't be choosers...and we certainly have become the former.

 

When a "fat suit" (credit to Bant for the term) tank is even remotely optimal, is when you know something is very, very wrong.

Edited September 1, 2016 by UberSamoyed

[Tsetso]

And this is the crux of the issue. Attempting to find some balance between a PVP and PVE tank via the same gear/mechanics is a flawed exercise that has only been exacerbated over time.

 

It would take a ton of effort to fix it. Sadly, it's not going to happen. Heck, I'd settle for a 224 B-mod and call it a day.

 

There's a ton of work to be done on balancing/optimizing endgame content and gear. It's not just tanks either. Regardless, at this point, most of us are just hoping for some new content. Beggars can't be choosers...and we certainly have become the former.

 

When a "fat suit" (credit to Bant for the term) tank is even remotely optimal, is when you know something is very, very wrong.

At least for pvp fat suit is optimal aty least in regs and yolo

[Seaturkey]

I know this thread is kinda dead but I am gonna throw my spin on this. In my opinion everyone thus far has misunderstood the OP

 

Why doesnt 224 gear give tanks more endurance?

 

I main a tank and personally I gear very awkwardly and almost no one agrees with my methods but my healers do not complain and my dtps is rarely above 4K even taking double adds on NiM bestia. But the point I think the OP is trying to make, however you gear your tank, max mitigation or max endurance or some hybrid in between, wouldn't it be nice if they gave you more endurance?

 

Example: My vanguard is fully geared the way I want him to be and the stats look like this:

(Yes I am aware this is a weird stat pool but I like it)

Sheild- 2056

Defense- 1159

Absorb- 992

Health- 82593

 

Wouldn't it be nicer if I just had like 88k health on top of all my stats allocated as I desire?

 

If you ask me tanks should have a passive 5% more health maybe even 10%. Arguably this would make healing even easier but it would make tanks have more appropriate health. It's really sad when the fully 224 geared commando on my raid team has 83k health which is more then me and the other tank!

 

I made a full endurance set for lawls to see, full 220 vender pieces with 224 armorings and full endurance augments and this was my stat pool

 

Defense- 2500ish

Absorb- 700ish

Sheild- 800ish

Health- 102000ish

 

I have done a few test runs of this tank, the dtps is very high, but I also find myself being able to laugh at things. Like on SM xeno I can stand through the full thermal tolerance with reactive Sheild up and live with 0 heals received.

 

Anyway, tanks having passively more endurance would be really nice, I think that's what the OP was saying, and I agree.

Finally someone who gets it, ty!

[Loadsamonie]

The problem with PvP tanks, and it's an issue that isn't likely to ever be fixed, is that Tank stats don't work the way they're supposed to in PvP. Autocrits bypass shield completely, and Force/Tech bypass Defense completely. Defense only mitigates White damage, and Shield only works if the attack that hits isn't a Crit, and since so many DPS builds basically GORGE themselves on Crit or have Autocrits in their rotation, Shield gets laughed at. And Absorbed gets laughed at as well, since it's tied to Shield. And that's not even considering Internal/Elemental damage.

 

The only reliable way to become Tankier in PvP is to stack Endurance. Tanks need to know how to Guard Swap and make judicial use of their cooldowns, leaps and taunts, but Mitigation stats just don't work in PvP. You need to stack Endurance as much as you can, and then you're better served with DPS stats so you can contribute some damage on the side, otherwise you hit like a wet noodle in exchange for living maybe 1 or 2 seconds longer.

 

It's doubly insulting that the DPS Mods/Enhancements have more Endurance than the Tank ones, excluding the Implants/Earpiece. Even the DPS Relics have Endurance where the Tank ones don't (and much better procs to boot). So the DPS mods not only get you more useful stats for PvP, BUT more HP as well. And as a PvP Tank, HP is what you really want.

 

The fix? Make Defense effective against Yellow damage and Shield effective against Crits. All of a sudden Tanks are much beefier in PvP, and teams will pretty much HAVE to tunnel you to take you down, or otherwise CC you or ignore you.

 

But no, the PvP Gods will never see this happen.

Edited September 10, 2016 by Loadsamonie