Proposed PVE Balance

[LosevV]

Great thread...but it realy sad that Bioware don't give a f...ahem, wll you get the idea. If there was any way to make developer team that doing balance class DO this changes and make believe financial department that this will make more money.

Still, big thanks, Aelanis, Goblin_Lackey, LudhaninRolgge for your hard work.

[Goblin_Lackey]

Okay, now I want to argue against having so tight a balance.

(also update the first page; I made some minor edits on my other post)

Side Note: not all these thoughts are coherent because I made them over the course of a few weeks.

 

1. AOE damage is not taken into effect
   
2. The damage levels don’t have enough correspondence with rotational difficulty.
   
3. Non-damage based utility will take priority over damage when choosing DPS.
   
4. The damage level currently targeted is higher than the current assumed balance point for operations
   
5. It gives a large advantage to Burst and RNG based disciplines versus Sustained DoT based Disciplines.
   
6. I have been incorrect in the past.
   

 

Now expanding these statements:

 

1) Currently, there are some classes that are amazing at dealing damage to multiple opponents at once (for example Vengeance Juggernauts) without any rotational changes. Conversely there are those that aren’t (any Operative). This makes certain classes much better at dealing with multiple adds or bosses than others. It also makes balancing for PVP harder due to the inherent advantage in multiplying your damage output for each additional target. Dot Spreading is also a concern that should be addressed (and I don’t have a solution for this). One of the biggest Dot spread issues is that the ability that spreads the dots is rotational for some classes (Vengeance, Hatred,Madness,Pyrotech, Virulence), but not for others (Annihilation, Innovative Ordinance, Lethality) meaning that there is no balancing penalties for spreading those dots.

 

2) My damage estimations assume that all rotations are equally difficult to play perfectly. But everyone knows that perfect rotation goes out the window the moment the boss is pulled. There are both long and short rotations in the game that can sometimes be boiled down into priority lists. The harder to accomplish rotations should be the ones that reward the players that can accomplish the rotation with better dps. An in game example where this is not the case currently is the differences between Arsenal and Innovative Ordinance. IO heavily punishes players that don’t follow the strict rotation while Arsenal is forgiving with heat management. But they currently do similar damage so the 3.0 heavy IO dominance gave way to few players actually running the discipline any more. (Side note: perfectly played Arsenal has a much longer set rotation than IO; but it can easily be boiled down to a priority list instead)

 

3) Utility will take priority over damage while choosing DPS. This will actually be the reason that you won’t see many disciplines. An in game example where this is not the case currently is the differences between Advanced Prototype and Pyrotech. Pryotech does more damage but comes with two huge penalties (and one minor bonus): It has to stand channel 20% of the time and it does not have the 30% AOE damage reduction. (The bonus is hearing people complain about the giant showerhead of fiery doom) The best way to solve this would be to spend some time looking over the Utility and discipline trees for each class and move damage reduction abilities to utilities while moving damage increasing abilities to individual trees. The other thing to do would be to remove some of the uniqueness of discipline trees and implement some Global Utilities (for example: give all specs access to 30% AOE damage reduction at the same tier level [likely tied to stance because that would be almost too good for tanks])

 

4) 7000 Average Dummy DPS seems a bit high based on the ideal stated goals and current Nightmare balance. Still using the assumption that you balance for the high end and the low end sorts itself. I use the rule of thumb that the best teams can do at least 85% of their dummy DPS while still accomplishing all of the mechanics (not counting any damage boosters such as adds). But with the current participation in Nightmare raids at an all time low, it likely will not hurt to boost DPS.

 

5) I finally have a method to assign an expected damage range to a disciplines output. I can only give an approximate output that is based on perfect rotation and perfectly average luck. All of the RNG based disciplines should be able to outperform (and underperform) this some of the time. This also affects classes with a low number of hits that each deal large amounts of damage. With the narrowing and raising of the damage range comes the point where the burst specs are almost always the best option. There would be no downside because the sustained damage of the burst will be indistinguishable from the true sustained classes but also will have the increase in flexibility of switching targets.

 

6) I have been iterating through my dps estimater for a while now and everytime it gets more accurate. But it is not 100% accurate and it makes lots of assumptions that may or may not be valid in certain situations. It is very likely that there could be small differences that add up to large amounts of missing or additional dps. Therefore take everything above with a grain of salt and look for potential pitfalls I may have missed.

 

 

Other Concerns:

• We also need a good way to solve the issue of Skank tanks (Tanks in DPS gear) in both PVP and to a lesser degree in PVE. I don’t have a solution to this.
  
• Assassin Tanks should lose the 50% critical bonus on Shock under Recklessness if Recklessness is retooled to 100%. This is a relic pre 4.0 when Supercrit did not exist (it also makes the Recklessness change provide 10% less boost rather than 40% more). While I’m on Assassin Tanks, I would like a return of the 3% healing received buff on Assassins Shelter Utility because it matched the endurance boost so that all the tanks got the same percentage heals, but that is a different thread than DPS balance.
  
• Since Forum Readership is low for the combat balance team, LudhaninRolgge you should compose a nice message for Musco or Tait and ask for it to be passed to the combat team for their consideration. (I am eternally optimistic) I can also provide access to the tools I used to generate the dps values.
  

 

 

As a Bonus here is the Changed DPS hierarchy with damage spread included:

Rank: DPS +-Error (% vs Average) Imperial Discipline || Republic Discipline

01: 7089+-228 (+2.26%) Assassin - Hatred || Shadow - Serenity

02: 7051+-191 (+1.72%) Marauder - Annihilation || Sentinel - Watchman

03: 7039+-158 (+1.54%) Operative - Lethality || Scoundrel - Ruffian

04: 7034+-201 (+1.47%) Juggernaut - Vengeance || Guardian - Vigilance

05: 7016+-191 (+1.20%) Powertech - Pyrotech || Vanguard - Plasmatech

06: 6965+-211 (+0.47%) Sorcerer - Madness || Sage - Balance

07: 6950+-107 (+0.26%) Sniper - Virulence || Gunslinger - Dirty Fighting

08: 6947+-153 (+0.21%) Sniper - Engineering || Gunslinger - Saboteur

09: 6942+-146 (+0.14%) Marauder - Carnage || Sentinel - Combat

10: 6927+-378 (-0.07%) Assassin - Deception || Shadow - Infiltration

11: 6923+-230 (-0.13%) Mercenary - Innovative Ordinance || Commando - Assault Specialist

12: 6921+-325 (-0.16%) Operative - Concealment || Scoundrel - Scrapper

13: 6912+-311 (-0.29%) Powertech - Advanced Prototype || Vanguard - Tactics

14: 6865+-222 (-0.97%) Marauder - Fury || Sentinel - Concentration

15: 6839+-306 (-1.35%) Juggernaut - Rage || Guardian - Focus

16: 6793+-207 (-2.01%) Sorcerer - Lightning || Sage - Telekinetics

17: 6788+-265 (-2.09%) Mercenary - Arsenal || Commando - Gunnery

18: 6780+-307 (-2.20%) Sniper - Marksman || Gunslinger - Sharpshooter

 

Edit:

Neat Images attached:

Live DPS Spread

Alternate DPS Spread

Edited July 2, 2016 by Goblin_Lackey

[LudhaninRolgge]

Great thread...but it realy sad that Bioware don't give a f...ahem, wll you get the idea. If there was any way to make developer team that doing balance class DO this changes and make believe financial department that this will make more money.

Still, big thanks, Aelanis, Goblin_Lackey, LudhaninRolgge for your hard work.

 

I just typed the 1st post, there's really nothing to thank me about. Aelanis was the 1st to do the hard work and Bant completed it in an unexpected way.

 

snip

 

Regarding what you said. Rotation difficulty is a thing and I understand players playing those more difficult specs should be rewarded, but when you're making a group to down NiM, you don't care what spec is harder than the other. All you watch is raw DPS numbers. The solution would be to give harder specs less utility so it's justified for them to do a lot more DPS.

 

As for AOE, I don't have a solution. You can put every dot spreading abilities in every spec's rotation, but that would make them a bit more like the other (just a tiny bit, but still)

 

Your idea to message Musco and Tait is noted, I'm also an eternal optimistic and I'll probably do it.

[Aelanis]

Okay, now I want to argue against having so tight a balance.

(also update the first page; I made some minor edits on my other post)

Side Note: not all these thoughts are coherent because I made them over the course of a few weeks.

 

1. AOE damage is not taken into effect
   
2. The damage levels don’t have enough correspondence with rotational difficulty.
   
3. Non-damage based utility will take priority over damage when choosing DPS.
   
4. The damage level currently targeted is higher than the current assumed balance point for operations
   
5. It gives a large advantage to Burst and RNG based disciplines versus Sustained DoT based Disciplines.
   
6. I have been incorrect in the past.
   

 

Now expanding these statements:

 

1) Currently, there are some classes that are amazing at dealing damage to multiple opponents at once (for example Vengeance Juggernauts) without any rotational changes. Conversely there are those that aren’t (any Operative). This makes certain classes much better at dealing with multiple adds or bosses than others. It also makes balancing for PVP harder due to the inherent advantage in multiplying your damage output for each additional target. Dot Spreading is also a concern that should be addressed (and I don’t have a solution for this). One of the biggest Dot spread issues is that the ability that spreads the dots is rotational for some classes (Vengeance, Hatred,Madness,Pyrotech, Virulence), but not for others (Annihilation, Innovative Ordinance, Lethality) meaning that there is no balancing penalties for spreading those dots.

 

2) My damage estimations assume that all rotations are equally difficult to play perfectly. But everyone knows that perfect rotation goes out the window the moment the boss is pulled. There are both long and short rotations in the game that can sometimes be boiled down into priority lists. The harder to accomplish rotations should be the ones that reward the players that can accomplish the rotation with better dps. An in game example where this is not the case currently is the differences between Arsenal and Innovative Ordinance. IO heavily punishes players that don’t follow the strict rotation while Arsenal is forgiving with heat management. But they currently do similar damage so the 3.0 heavy IO dominance gave way to few players actually running the discipline any more. (Side note: perfectly played Arsenal has a much longer set rotation than IO; but it can easily be boiled down to a priority list instead)

 

3) Utility will take priority over damage while choosing DPS. This will actually be the reason that you won’t see many disciplines. An in game example where this is not the case currently is the differences between Advanced Prototype and Pyrotech. Pryotech does more damage but comes with two huge penalties (and one minor bonus): It has to stand channel 20% of the time and it does not have the 30% AOE damage reduction. (The bonus is hearing people complain about the giant showerhead of fiery doom) The best way to solve this would be to spend some time looking over the Utility and discipline trees for each class and move damage reduction abilities to utilities while moving damage increasing abilities to individual trees. The other thing to do would be to remove some of the uniqueness of discipline trees and implement some Global Utilities (for example: give all specs access to 30% AOE damage reduction at the same tier level [likely tied to stance because that would be almost too good for tanks])

 

4) 7000 Average Dummy DPS seems a bit high based on the ideal stated goals and current Nightmare balance. Still using the assumption that you balance for the high end and the low end sorts itself. I use the rule of thumb that the best teams can do at least 85% of their dummy DPS while still accomplishing all of the mechanics (not counting any damage boosters such as adds). But with the current participation in Nightmare raids at an all time low, it likely will not hurt to boost DPS.

 

5) I finally have a method to assign an expected damage range to a disciplines output. I can only give an approximate output that is based on perfect rotation and perfectly average luck. All of the RNG based disciplines should be able to outperform (and underperform) this some of the time. This also affects classes with a low number of hits that each deal large amounts of damage. With the narrowing and raising of the damage range comes the point where the burst specs are almost always the best option. There would be no downside because the sustained damage of the burst will be indistinguishable from the true sustained classes but also will have the increase in flexibility of switching targets.

 

6) I have been iterating through my dps estimater for a while now and everytime it gets more accurate. But it is not 100% accurate and it makes lots of assumptions that may or may not be valid in certain situations. It is very likely that there could be small differences that add up to large amounts of missing or additional dps. Therefore take everything above with a grain of salt and look for potential pitfalls I may have missed.

 

 

Other Concerns:

• We also need a good way to solve the issue of Skank tanks (Tanks in DPS gear) in both PVP and to a lesser degree in PVE. I don’t have a solution to this.
  
• Assassin Tanks should lose the 50% critical bonus on Shock under Recklessness if Recklessness is retooled to 100%. This is a relic pre 4.0 when Supercrit did not exist (it also makes the Recklessness change provide 10% less boost rather than 40% more). While I’m on Assassin Tanks, I would like a return of the 3% healing received buff on Assassins Shelter Utility because it matched the endurance boost so that all the tanks got the same percentage heals, but that is a different thread than DPS balance.
  
• Since Forum Readership is low for the combat balance team, LudhaninRolgge you should compose a nice message for Musco or Tait and ask for it to be passed to the combat team for their consideration. (I am eternally optimistic) I can also provide access to the tools I used to generate the dps values.
  

 

 

As a Bonus here is the Changed DPS hierarchy with damage spread included:

Rank: DPS +-Error (% vs Average) Imperial Discipline || Republic Discipline

01: 7089+-228 (+2.26%) Assassin - Hatred || Shadow - Serenity

02: 7051+-191 (+1.72%) Marauder - Annihilation || Sentinel - Watchman

03: 7039+-158 (+1.54%) Operative - Lethality || Scoundrel - Ruffian

04: 7034+-201 (+1.47%) Juggernaut - Vengeance || Guardian - Vigilance

05: 7016+-191 (+1.20%) Powertech - Pyrotech || Vanguard - Plasmatech

06: 6965+-211 (+0.47%) Sorcerer - Madness || Sage - Balance

07: 6950+-107 (+0.26%) Sniper - Virulence || Gunslinger - Dirty Fighting

08: 6947+-153 (+0.21%) Sniper - Engineering || Gunslinger - Saboteur

09: 6942+-146 (+0.14%) Marauder - Carnage || Sentinel - Combat

10: 6927+-378 (-0.07%) Assassin - Deception || Shadow - Infiltration

11: 6923+-230 (-0.13%) Mercenary - Innovative Ordinance || Commando - Assault Specialist

12: 6921+-325 (-0.16%) Operative - Concealment || Scoundrel - Scrapper

13: 6912+-311 (-0.29%) Powertech - Advanced Prototype || Vanguard - Tactics

14: 6865+-222 (-0.97%) Marauder - Fury || Sentinel - Concentration

15: 6839+-306 (-1.35%) Juggernaut - Rage || Guardian - Focus

16: 6793+-207 (-2.01%) Sorcerer - Lightning || Sage - Telekinetics

17: 6788+-265 (-2.09%) Mercenary - Arsenal || Commando - Gunnery

18: 6780+-307 (-2.20%) Sniper - Marksman || Gunslinger - Sharpshooter

 

Edit:

Neat Images attached:

Live DPS Spread

Alternate DPS Spread

 

Honestly, I think you're blowing a few of those bullet points out of the water. For instance:

 

1. Name a single fight where your group's AoE will make or break the fight.
   
2. None of the rotations in this game are particularly hard to execute. Maybe this is a bit biased, but most Disciplines regularly use less then 10 moves and in a very particular order. Having to adjust to a boss fight is not hard either: it just requires a time investment in practice.
   
3. Easily your best point, and, from past examples, one I don't think the combat team can compensate for in terms of balance without simply homogenizing the classes.
   
4. So make the DPS checks harder. Not in the 4.0 way by increasing health, but by making good DPS harder to maintain. This is a small rebalance issue, and honestly only requires some small tweaks to bandaid, if they won't put in the effort to do it right. Besides, like you implied: the true potential will rarely be seen anyway.
   
5. Here's another thing that could easily be solved with some clever design, but again, not something I'm expecting. If the DPS checks are sufficiently tight, then you'll see a reason to take the sustained doing lightly better average DPS, or else the burst specs will need to step it up. But gone are the days of 0% Brontes wipes.
   
6. This is all theoretical anyway, so I don't expect it will ever get noticed.

 

I think your miscellaneous concerns are much more pressing, to be honest.

Edited July 14, 2016 by Aelanis

[Goblin_Lackey]

Honestly, I think you're blowing a few of those bullet points out of the water. For instance:

 

 

1. Name a single fight where your group's AoE will make or break the fight.
   
2. None of the rotations in this game are particularly hard to execute. Maybe this is a bit biased, but most Disciplines regularly use less then 10 moves and in a very particular order. Having to adjust to a boss fight is not hard either: it just requires a time investment in practice.
   
3. Easily your best point, and, from past examples, one I don't think the combat team can compensate for in terms of balance without simply homogenizing the classes.
   
4. So make the DPS checks harder. Not in the 4.0 way by increasing health, but by making good DPS harder to maintain. This is a small rebalance issue, and honestly only requires some small tweaks to bandaid, if they won't put in the effort to do it right. Besides, like you implied: the true potential will rarely be seen anyway.
   
5. Here's another thing that could easily be solved with some clever design, but again, not something I'm expecting. If the DPS checks are sufficiently tight, then you'll see a reason to take the sustained doing lightly better average DPS, or else the burst specs will need to step it up. But gone are the days of 0% Brontes wipes.
   
6. This is all theoretical anyway, so I don't expect it will ever get noticed.

 

 

I think your miscellaneous concerns are much more pressing, to be honest.

 

I mainly wanted to put in writing the potential issues I spotted with adjusting the balance level. Not all of my points were as well thought out as they could have been, but I wanted them out in the open to so that they could be debated and rational arguments could be made for or against them.

As it is I don't stand fully behind the points I gave, but they are all questions that may need consideration.

 

1) AOE.

I agree that there is not a single fight where lack of AOE will cause a fight to fail. The closest I can think of is Nightmare Dread Fortress for Gate Commander Draxus. Even there it’s possible to do with 4 Excellent Concealment Operatives (just think of the stabbing with constant Tactical Advantage Giggles). Its main function is to serve as a DPS multiplier to make some situations easier. Even so, I would like operatives to be a bit more completive with their AOE (so that trash pulls go faster).

 

2) Rotation

I fully agree that none of the rotations in this game are hard. But you have to agree that some rotations require more to accomplish than others. All of the rotations can be accomplished in Raid situations, but there are some that require larger awareness investments than others.

There are multiple flavors of rotation difficulty as well:

• Static Rotation vs. Priority List (ex: IO vs Arsenal)
  
• Easy Energy Management vs. Tight Energy Management (ex: Arsenal vs IO)
  
• Proc/DOT constrained vs Ability Cooldown constrained (ex: Hatred vs Lightning)
  
• Setup time vs. Instant Start (ex: Lethality vs Concealment)
  
• RNG based resource availability (ex: Virulence)
  
• Mobility (ex: AP vs Pyrotech)
  

I feel that doing the harder version of any of these should reward the player with better DPS outcomes. But I didn't come with a sliding scale to us.

 

3) Utility

It had to be brought up at least.

 

4) 7000 DPS

I wanted to put together a list that involved the least number of changes possible. That is why I focused on Disciplines specific abilities only without making changes to coefficients. Changing the health of all mobs and bosses I considered beyond the scope of work as defined due to a large number of variables and changes.

I'm also not sure that the much in the way of band aiding will be required because the "higher end" classes were not drastically changed in their DPS outputs. Due to timing, it makes more sense to stage the changes by first balancing the DPS and then at a later time tweak the boss HP numbers. Or leave it as is to try and attract the priority HM raiders to make the jump and look at nightmare. Slightly raising the DPS balance won't suddenly change who can clear what content, it just allows for players to bring any disciplines that would like or tryout different combinations.

 

5) Burst vs Sustain

I actually think my point here is irrelevant.

This game labels some classes burst and sustained, but it never really had much to actually support those labels. None of the boss fights have any phases that are short enough to really show any DPS difference between these two types. A better term is that some disciplines require a setup time while others can simply tab target and continue. Utility should and does play a larger role that this label.

 

6) Incorrect

In theory, I'm always 100% right.

In practice, the previous sentence is 100% incorrect.

 

 

-Posted via the Bantphone

[LudhaninRolgge]

On the "more difficult rotation" subject, that's also a matter of preference. I find Focus rotation easier than Vigilance, but Infiltration easier than Hatred. I find one static easier than a priority for one class, but the , other way around for another class. Anyway, I may be just a bit weird also ^^

 

On another note, I've send a PM to Musco and Tait about a week ago asking them if they coul forward this to the combat team. Still no answer, but maybe one of them did it without telling me.

[CrazyOldMystic]

I pvp at times, not like I used to, and I have done my fair share of pve over the years.

 

My number one problem with the ops suggestion is its based on stats and thats it. This is the exact type of thinking that got a massive nerf bomb sent to the vanguard/power tech. The stats declared that full auto was not necessary. So now the baseline, 100 percent immersion ability of unload and full auto is now only available via merc/commando. This really put a kill shot into the vanguard, at least with the power tech your still using flames/fire, which makes it interesting. Lets not forget the nerf for those classes by way of range, everything down to 10 meters.

 

My point is stats are a portion of the picture, but never the whole. If someone at bioware had bothered to use practical knowladge of the trooper class, they would have never removed full auot/unload. Trying to balance the game based on stats alone is a bad idea. There is a whole lot more to class balance then just stats.

[LudhaninRolgge]

I pvp at times, not like I used to, and I have done my fair share of pve over the years.

 

My number one problem with the ops suggestion is its based on stats and thats it. This is the exact type of thinking that got a massive nerf bomb sent to the vanguard/power tech. The stats declared that full auto was not necessary. So now the baseline, 100 percent immersion ability of unload and full auto is now only available via merc/commando. This really put a kill shot into the vanguard, at least with the power tech your still using flames/fire, which makes it interesting. Lets not forget the nerf for those classes by way of range, everything down to 10 meters.

 

My point is stats are a portion of the picture, but never the whole. If someone at bioware had bothered to use practical knowladge of the trooper class, they would have never removed full auot/unload. Trying to balance the game based on stats alone is a bad idea. There is a whole lot more to class balance then just stats.

 

So the fact strength and weaknesses of each and every specs regarding survivability, ranged options, raid utility or usefull tools are taken into account is basing only on stats ?

 

What this proposed balance tries to achieve is a certain equal footing for every specs when considering them for high-end raiding. It's probably not perfect, but it's considering more than stat.

[GrandLordMenace]

This is pretty much perfect, but AP needs to be lower. Even with the DPS it has right now, it's still putting up good numbers and dominating the boards.

 

Vengeance would be amazing in this spot, the buffs are spot on.

 

- Rydarus

[Bonzenaattori]

Why are you considering the armor rating of classes as a DPS role when during an optimized situation or boss fight, You're never expected to directly take damage.

 

Why push every classes dps potential so high with boss fights that demand approx 5k+ dps and sometimes less due to consideration of gaps in fights and whatnot. You're simply making the game easier.

Do you not realize that every class DPS output is already viable?

 

Why are you ignoring mechanical prowess from classes, and then resort to saying they have bad or poor survivability simply because another class has what you would consider an adequate amount as such.

Again something that is comprised as a DPS role, where your objective is to inflict an optimal or better amount of damage on the boss, not to survive every hit you take by usage of a cooldown or ability

Yet you use factors such as their ability to survive as a crutch to not only circumvent, but also to justify a classes damage output should be significantly higher.

 

If you propose changes for their dps output... you look at their dps.

Not their ability to run from a fight, survive a burst of damage, or whether the class is in light armor or heavy.

 

Yeah sure an operative, merc and sorc has cast heal abilities that let them heal. But from a dps perspective, that is beyond sub optimal and many cases just plain bad.

Unless you're in a position where you will NEVER receive heals from the role known as HEALER, then I wouldn't question my classes ability to survive, I would question the skill and awareness of my HEALER.

 

You seem like the player that is immediately disheartened simply because you say to yourself: "I will never be top dps on parse, because we have a marauder in the group, and they have the highest dps in the game."

 

Firstly, I wouldn't ever want to compare a Marauder's dps numbers with anything other than a... ...you guessed it... MARAUDER!

Why? The f*ck cares about other classes? Knowing another class can get better numbers than me does not mean a thing. But I compare my dps with myself and my own class.

Other players of the same class give me the insight to know I can be better!

Comparing dps with myself creates personal bests, which marks a personal achievement to be better.

But if another class has higher or lesser dps than me, but they're still well over the optimal amount, what do you hope to learn from comparing the two? Bragging rights?

Sounds like nothing but melancholy to me.

 

Say what you will about what you think should be top DPS or whatever, but making a sin, pt, jugg, sorc, op or merc top dps will simply dissuade them from being other mandatory roles, or make it highly convincing to fall to DPS roles.

How will you make TANK and HEALER roles appealing, when those roles are already p*ss easy without making it easier?

Your simply cutting your left arm with a more deeper wound to ignore the one on the right..

 

As a dps your priority should be aligned as such

1) Did you Kill the boss? Yes (go to 2) No (kill the boss)

2) Was your dps adequate? Yes (go to 3) No (improve your dps)

3) Was your dps better than your last attempt at said boss? Yes (new PB... yay! self reflection, Can I get it higher?) No (self reflection, what did I fail to do this attempt, that I did so well the last attempt at this boss fight)

 

Anything else is you simply spiting a class, you don't even have an valid argument to suggest a class should be better dps if it is already viable to clear all content. So what concept of 'balance' are you looking at?

Edited July 17, 2016 by Bonzenaattori

[AndoEyrune]

Anything else is you simply spiting a class, you don't even have an valid argument to suggest a class should be better dps if it is already viable to clear all content. So what concept of 'balance' are you looking at?

 

The issue is, some classes are underpowered compared to other classes that are easier to play, and as such they aren't used in raids.

Sure, all classes are viable, but some not nearly as much as others. These suggested changes may raise the DPS of several individual specs, but it is not raising the complete DPS cap.

These changes simply make it so people have more freedom in which classes they bring to raids, as they will be capable of pulling numbers they couldn't due to imbalance.

Edited July 17, 2016 by AndoEyrune

[Memo-]

Why push every classes dps potential so high with boss fights that demand approx 5k+ dps and sometimes less due to consideration of gaps in fights and whatnot. You're simply making the game easier.

Do you not realize that every class DPS output is already viable?

 

To counter this somewhat, and some other points Bonzenaattori made...

 

The calculations here are made by bant, according to his earlier work here: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=847112 The numbers both there and here are theoretical averages. Now, you'll see that in the current meta, bant's calculations have Annihilation at the top with 7068 and Marskmanship at the bottom with 6238. The proposition would have Hatred at the top with 7089 and Marskmanship at the bottom with 6780. So yes, while it will buff many of the lower ranking ones, the top isn't changed at all. Odds are anyone's current composition would not get a major boon in total DPS if these changes were applied.

 

We would also be going from a difference of 830 dps to just 309. This would let people still play with more optimal specs for different fights, but wouldn't completely wreck the lower ranking ones. Overall it would make the game a bit easier, sure, but the end result would be more variety in compositions, and people wouldn't be as opposed to playing specs they like the most from a pure gameplay point of view.

[Noyjitat]

Need to stop wasting dev time on balanced every time someone get's there *** kicked in pvp and just go back to the forumulas we had during the original launch with the adjustments for leveling up to the current max. The game played just fine and those forumulas received tons of testing during open and closed beta. It doesn't make sense to change this to that and then back to that every time someone cries nerf.

 

If developemnt spent a 1/3 of the time they spend constantly nerfing, unnerfing and buffing combat we'd have so much more to do in this game. You know, actual content and more places for pvpers to go, endgame and maybe someday a major expansion that has 1 chapter for every class again. As it stands now they make far more money than they ever have on this game from chance packs and do less work content wise for that money.

[Greezt]

Need to stop wasting dev time on balanced every time someone get's there *** kicked in pvp and just go back to the forumulas we had during the original launch with the adjustments for leveling up to the current max. The game played just fine and those forumulas received tons of testing during open and closed beta. It doesn't make sense to change this to that and then back to that every time someone cries nerf.

 

If developemnt spent a 1/3 of the time they spend constantly nerfing, unnerfing and buffing combat we'd have so much more to do in this game. You know, actual content and more places for pvpers to go, endgame and maybe someday a major expansion that has 1 chapter for every class again. As it stands now they make far more money than they ever have on this game from chance packs and do less work content wise for that money.

 

Do we play the same game? Last nerf - 4.5. The one before it (not counting bug fixes) - 4.0.3. That's almost 6 months between balancing. Which is a lot of time for when things are out of balance...

 

But sure, let's leave things the way they are. We can't have them fixed now, can we?

[Aelanis]

Why are you considering the armor rating of classes as a DPS role when during an optimized situation or boss fight, You're never expected to directly take damage.

 

Why push every classes dps potential so high with boss fights that demand approx 5k+ dps and sometimes less due to consideration of gaps in fights and whatnot. You're simply making the game easier.

Do you not realize that every class DPS output is already viable?

 

Why are you ignoring mechanical prowess from classes, and then resort to saying they have bad or poor survivability simply because another class has what you would consider an adequate amount as such.

Again something that is comprised as a DPS role, where your objective is to inflict an optimal or better amount of damage on the boss, not to survive every hit you take by usage of a cooldown or ability

Yet you use factors such as their ability to survive as a crutch to not only circumvent, but also to justify a classes damage output should be significantly higher.

 

If you propose changes for their dps output... you look at their dps.

Not their ability to run from a fight, survive a burst of damage, or whether the class is in light armor or heavy.

 

Yeah sure an operative, merc and sorc has cast heal abilities that let them heal. But from a dps perspective, that is beyond sub optimal and many cases just plain bad.

Unless you're in a position where you will NEVER receive heals from the role known as HEALER, then I wouldn't question my classes ability to survive, I would question the skill and awareness of my HEALER.

 

You seem like the player that is immediately disheartened simply because you say to yourself: "I will never be top dps on parse, because we have a marauder in the group, and they have the highest dps in the game."

 

Firstly, I wouldn't ever want to compare a Marauder's dps numbers with anything other than a... ...you guessed it... MARAUDER!

Why? The f*ck cares about other classes? Knowing another class can get better numbers than me does not mean a thing. But I compare my dps with myself and my own class.

Other players of the same class give me the insight to know I can be better!

Comparing dps with myself creates personal bests, which marks a personal achievement to be better.

But if another class has higher or lesser dps than me, but they're still well over the optimal amount, what do you hope to learn from comparing the two? Bragging rights?

Sounds like nothing but melancholy to me.

 

Say what you will about what you think should be top DPS or whatever, but making a sin, pt, jugg, sorc, op or merc top dps will simply dissuade them from being other mandatory roles, or make it highly convincing to fall to DPS roles.

How will you make TANK and HEALER roles appealing, when those roles are already p*ss easy without making it easier?

Your simply cutting your left arm with a more deeper wound to ignore the one on the right..

 

As a dps your priority should be aligned as such

1) Did you Kill the boss? Yes (go to 2) No (kill the boss)

2) Was your dps adequate? Yes (go to 3) No (improve your dps)

3) Was your dps better than your last attempt at said boss? Yes (new PB... yay! self reflection, Can I get it higher?) No (self reflection, what did I fail to do this attempt, that I did so well the last attempt at this boss fight)

 

Anything else is you simply spiting a class, you don't even have an valid argument to suggest a class should be better dps if it is already viable to clear all content. So what concept of 'balance' are you looking at?

Somebody never tried 16 man Cora HM on a Sorc. It didn't matter how good your healers were: if the mouse droids targeted you, you died. Survivability matters, though there is a serious lack of meaningful heal checks that matter that involve healing party members through damage. But it happens, and that's when survivability counts.

 

It also seems like you didn't do HM raids in 3.0, when you played a Bounty Hunter or you held your group back. This is about making class choice purely a preference. I'm also not sure if you're aware, but the suggested +/- 2% spread is pretty nearly tight enough that last place can beat first place with some luck and purely equal skill and gear optimization.

[Tsetso]

It's all very good but the sad truth is that without new operations pve balance is almost meaningless.

[UberSamoyed]

Why are you considering the armor rating of classes as a DPS role when during an optimized situation or boss fight, You're never expected to directly take damage.

 

Why push every classes dps potential so high with boss fights that demand approx 5k+ dps and sometimes less due to consideration of gaps in fights and whatnot. You're simply making the game easier.

Do you not realize that every class DPS output is already viable?

 

Why are you ignoring mechanical prowess from classes, and then resort to saying they have bad or poor survivability simply because another class has what you would consider an adequate amount as such.

Again something that is comprised as a DPS role, where your objective is to inflict an optimal or better amount of damage on the boss, not to survive every hit you take by usage of a cooldown or ability

Yet you use factors such as their ability to survive as a crutch to not only circumvent, but also to justify a classes damage output should be significantly higher.

 

If you propose changes for their dps output... you look at their dps.

Not their ability to run from a fight, survive a burst of damage, or whether the class is in light armor or heavy.

 

Yeah sure an operative, merc and sorc has cast heal abilities that let them heal. But from a dps perspective, that is beyond sub optimal and many cases just plain bad.

Unless you're in a position where you will NEVER receive heals from the role known as HEALER, then I wouldn't question my classes ability to survive, I would question the skill and awareness of my HEALER.

 

You seem like the player that is immediately disheartened simply because you say to yourself: "I will never be top dps on parse, because we have a marauder in the group, and they have the highest dps in the game."

 

Firstly, I wouldn't ever want to compare a Marauder's dps numbers with anything other than a... ...you guessed it... MARAUDER!

Why? The f*ck cares about other classes? Knowing another class can get better numbers than me does not mean a thing. But I compare my dps with myself and my own class.

Other players of the same class give me the insight to know I can be better!

Comparing dps with myself creates personal bests, which marks a personal achievement to be better.

But if another class has higher or lesser dps than me, but they're still well over the optimal amount, what do you hope to learn from comparing the two? Bragging rights?

Sounds like nothing but melancholy to me.

 

Say what you will about what you think should be top DPS or whatever, but making a sin, pt, jugg, sorc, op or merc top dps will simply dissuade them from being other mandatory roles, or make it highly convincing to fall to DPS roles.

How will you make TANK and HEALER roles appealing, when those roles are already p*ss easy without making it easier?

Your simply cutting your left arm with a more deeper wound to ignore the one on the right..

 

As a dps your priority should be aligned as such

1) Did you Kill the boss? Yes (go to 2) No (kill the boss)

2) Was your dps adequate? Yes (go to 3) No (improve your dps)

3) Was your dps better than your last attempt at said boss? Yes (new PB... yay! self reflection, Can I get it higher?) No (self reflection, what did I fail to do this attempt, that I did so well the last attempt at this boss fight)

 

Anything else is you simply spiting a class, you don't even have an valid argument to suggest a class should be better dps if it is already viable to clear all content. So what concept of 'balance' are you looking at?

 

Thank you for bringing humor to this thread.