Proposed Lightning/TK Changes

[DarthCognusSion]

In my opinion, ever since 4.0 launched Sorcs/Sages have felt somewhat lackluster. There are numerous things that contribute to this, and I will try to address each and offer possible solutions. These suggestions are designed to give LIghtning/TK a small boost in PvE while hopefully having as little to no impact on PvP at all. For the rest of this thread I will only use Sorc terms, but obviously this applies to TK as well. Constructive criticism is welcome, but saying "Sorcs op, must nerf" does not count as constructive.

 

1) One of the reasons I think that Sorc feels just ok is the fact that both Chain Lightning and Lightning Flash actually do less damage while critting than they did in 3.X. The reason for this of course is the surge nerf. Unfortunately to maintain some semblance of balance this needs to stay as is. I would love 30% surge boost back, but it would cause too many problems on both sides of the game and would quickly unbalance things.

 

2) Thundering Blast super crit does not work properly. One of the major issues with Lightning dps right now is that super crit just doesn't work for Thundering Blast. It has been postulated that this is most likely because it does not operate like other autocrits in how the game registers it. More or less it is believed that the game calculates whether Thundering Blast will crit when it hits the target, but the crit chance is calculated on abilty cast, therefore the super crit never occurs. I do not know if this has always been the case, or simply became an issue when they added a travel time to the ability. Regardless, this is something that needs to be fixed in order for Lightning to be healthier as the extra proc from our current 6-piece becomes more or less useless because of this.

 

3) 3.3 single target nerfs hurt Sorcs a lot. I am not suggesting a reversal of these as that would put too much damage back into our kit all the time. The damage nerfs hurt, but what hurt more was the reduction on our proc chances and damage. Therefore I suggest a change to the Chaos Nexus passive. Instead of making the proc chance of Forked Lightning increase to 50%, the proc chance for either just Forked Lightning or both Forked Lightning and Darkness should be 100%. This would increase dps by about 100 and 200 respectively, and move Lightning closer in line with other dps specs. At the same time this would only be while Polarity Shift is up. This would keep with the theme of a burst spec, just making Polarity Shift a little more powerful of a burst window, while not increasing it too much or touching the sustained damage outside that window.

 

Anyway this is what I think could help PvE Lightning. I would like to hear what other people think of these changes, and if anyone has any other ideas or suggestions I would love to hear them. I only ask everything be within reason as this is designed to make the class healthier, not the best dps class.

Edited June 6, 2016 by DarthCognusSion

[LudhaninRolgge]

The problem with TK is that it's very mobile, has good passive defense and a **** load of AOE so if you want to increase its single target, you have to make concession elsewhere (even if they should really fix the supercrit).

[DarthCognusSion]

I agree that we have good mobility for a range class, and we also have decent passive defense, though we still have light armor. As for the AoE, I don't entirely agree. We have 2 moves that are AoE, Chain Lightning and Force Storm. Yes Force Storm is spammable, but other classes have just better AoE than Sorc's do. Hatred has some of the best AoE in the game with a spammable dot spread ability in lacerate, Madness can dotspread via deathfield (though nerfed a bit now to be fair) and then Force Storm, and Virulence for example can dotspread and then do suppression fire which does more damage than Force Storm. My point is that we are far from the best in AoE. It's good, but not the top.

[midianlord]

I want my Lightning Barrage back, dammit

[LudhaninRolgge]

I agree that we have good mobility for a range class, and we also have decent passive defense, though we still have light armor. As for the AoE, I don't entirely agree. We have 2 moves that are AoE, Chain Lightning and Force Storm. Yes Force Storm is spammable, but other classes have just better AoE than Sorc's do. Hatred has some of the best AoE in the game with a spammable dot spread ability in lacerate, Madness can dotspread via deathfield (though nerfed a bit now to be fair) and then Force Storm, and Virulence for example can dotspread and then do suppression fire which does more damage than Force Storm. My point is that we are far from the best in AoE. It's good, but not the top.

 

But you're comparing DoT AOE with burst AOE. The former will always be better since you have multiple DoT ticking while using instant damage abilities. But what's powerful with TK (and even sages in general, and Serenity Shadow to an extend aswell) is that AOE is rotational. What that means is that you don't lose any DPS on the boss if you want to kill the adds surrounding them. That may seems like nothing, but 5k average hits on up to 8 targets including the boss with TK Wave (without counting crits nor the double cast procs) is really powerful. For a burst spec, TK has an amazing AOE, probably one of the best.

Now don't get me wrong, TK could use some love and I totally agree with that but what really need love is the DPS balance in general more than one special spec.

[DarthCognusSion]

I want my Lightning Barrage back, dammit

 

I too would like our Force Lightning proc back. I miss how Sorc played before 3.0, but at this point I don't see them giving it back to us. I still don't understand why they made Force Lightning not part of the Lightning rotation but whatever. As much as I would love to bring it back, I don't think that they will. I would like it because it would mean less Lightning Bolt spams, but especially with them giving Madness a passive called Lightning Barrage, I just don't think we will get it back.

 

But you're comparing DoT AOE with burst AOE. The former will always be better since you have multiple DoT ticking while using instant damage abilities. But what's powerful with TK (and even sages in general, and Serenity Shadow to an extend aswell) is that AOE is rotational. What that means is that you don't lose any DPS on the boss if you want to kill the adds surrounding them. That may seems like nothing, but 5k average hits on up to 8 targets including the boss with TK Wave (without counting crits nor the double cast procs) is really powerful. For a burst spec, TK has an amazing AOE, probably one of the best.

Now don't get me wrong, TK could use some love and I totally agree with that but what really need love is the DPS balance in general more than one special spec.

 

I agree that the rotational AoE is really good, but on any fight where killing adds is necessary it is somewhat irrelevant as you need to peel off and kill them fast anyway, and any fight that the adds aren't that big a threat it is just fluff damage. I see what you are saying, and I agree that having rotational AoE is strong, but I don't think this in any way prohibits a small buff to single target damage. I mean in 3.3 they nerfed both AoE and single target, and with 4.0 our single target got nerfed again thanks to the surge reduction. Our AoE is good, but for PvE I think that it is good but not nearly the best in situations that matter, and in PvP if all you are doing is hitting a few other people with chain lightning, that isnt that much damage compared to what a dot spec can do. I see your point, and I concede that we have some of the best AoE for burst specs. I just don't think it is so good to stop a single target buff without nerfing it first.

[LudhaninRolgge]

I agree that the rotational AoE is really good, but on any fight where killing adds is necessary it is somewhat irrelevant as you need to peel off and kill them fast anyway, and any fight that the adds aren't that big a threat it is just fluff damage. I see what you are saying, and I agree that having rotational AoE is strong, but I don't think this in any way prohibits a small buff to single target damage. I mean in 3.3 they nerfed both AoE and single target, and with 4.0 our single target got nerfed again thanks to the surge reduction. Our AoE is good, but for PvE I think that it is good but not nearly the best in situations that matter, and in PvP if all you are doing is hitting a few other people with chain lightning, that isnt that much damage compared to what a dot spec can do. I see your point, and I concede that we have some of the best AoE for burst specs. I just don't think it is so good to stop a single target buff without nerfing it first.

 

I totally understand that you want a slight buff, and I think the spec needs a bit of love to make it appealing for harder content, but even a 100 DPS would put it ahead of Serenity and you'd have to trade a lot off to make it even remotely balanced. Let's not forget that TK has no force management at all. I'm not criticizing here, but that makes the spec really easy mode and you can't expect an easy spec with good passive defense, good AOE and mobility to also do a lot of damage.

Don't think I hate TK, that's not true at all. But as I said earlier considering the actual class balance, increasing TK DPS would break the balance even more. You need a balance rework before you can even consider a TK buff.

[DarthCognusSion]

I totally understand that you want a slight buff, and I think the spec needs a bit of love to make it appealing for harder content, but even a 100 DPS would put it ahead of Serenity and you'd have to trade a lot off to make it even remotely balanced. Let's not forget that TK has no force management at all. I'm not criticizing here, but that makes the spec really easy mode and you can't expect an easy spec with good passive defense, good AOE and mobility to also do a lot of damage.

Don't think I hate TK, that's not true at all. But as I said earlier considering the actual class balance, increasing TK DPS would break the balance even more. You need a balance rework before you can even consider a TK buff.

 

I don't understand where you are getting this "Lightning is just barely not op, any buff will break the game's balance" mentality. The point is to provide concrete suggestions, not just say rework is needed, can't do anything until then. I still haven't seen any tangible evidence that Lightning is too strong for a slight dps buff to make it more viable in NiM. You can't claim AoE because other classes are still much better, and the same goes for survivability. This is Lightning, not Sorc's in general. The mobility complaint is valid to some degree, but with the mechanics in most boss fights now without it Sorc damage would need to be buffed considerably to offset the dps loss, which is also not to mention the fact that as a ranged dps that can be leapt to in pvp, some ability to kite is necessary as well. All I am saying is if you are going to say that Lightning is going to need counterbalance for a single target buff, please provide realistic and fleshed out points instead of generic arguments.

[LudhaninRolgge]

I don't understand where you are getting this "Lightning is just barely not op, any buff will break the game's balance" mentality. The point is to provide concrete suggestions, not just say rework is needed, can't do anything until then. I still haven't seen any tangible evidence that Lightning is too strong for a slight dps buff to make it more viable in NiM. You can't claim AoE because other classes are still much better, and the same goes for survivability. This is Lightning, not Sorc's in general. The mobility complaint is valid to some degree, but with the mechanics in most boss fights now without it Sorc damage would need to be buffed considerably to offset the dps loss, which is also not to mention the fact that as a ranged dps that can be leapt to in pvp, some ability to kite is necessary as well. All I am saying is if you are going to say that Lightning is going to need counterbalance for a single target buff, please provide realistic and fleshed out points instead of generic arguments.

 

I'm not saying it's too strong. I'm saying that seeing the balance as it is where it should be. The balance may be totally garbage, but that's the only one we have.

As I said, if you give TK just a 100 DPS buff, which is nothing, that would put the spec in the middle of the pack just ahead of Serenity. A ranged burst ahead of a melee dot, doesn't it seem wrong to you ?

I stated earlier, and you agreed with me, that TK has good passive defense, incredible AOE for a burst spec, is very mobile and has no force management system at all. Given all that, you can't on top of that give it incredible damage.

And given the fact that for a sane balance you have to do melee dot > melee burst - ranged dot > ranged burst, and since we have only 3 ranged burst (TK, Gunnery and Sharpshooter), TK can't possibly be higher than the low end.

Now, I'm well aware that TK is not really a desired spec for NiM and need some love but as the balance is right now if you put it at the stated of early 3.0 it'll be overpowered. Even if you put it in the middle of the field it'll be too much, look at Gunnery.

Now, if you want to talk about PVE class balance, I invite you to come here

[DarthCognusSion]

I'm not saying it's too strong. I'm saying that seeing the balance as it is where it should be. The balance may be totally garbage, but that's the only one we have.

As I said, if you give TK just a 100 DPS buff, which is nothing, that would put the spec in the middle of the pack just ahead of Serenity. A ranged burst ahead of a melee dot, doesn't it seem wrong to you ?

I stated earlier, and you agreed with me, that TK has good passive defense, incredible AOE for a burst spec, is very mobile and has no force management system at all. Given all that, you can't on top of that give it incredible damage.

And given the fact that for a sane balance you have to do melee dot > melee burst - ranged dot > ranged burst, and since we have only 3 ranged burst (TK, Gunnery and Sharpshooter), TK can't possibly be higher than the low end.

Now, I'm well aware that TK is not really a desired spec for NiM and need some love but as the balance is right now if you put it at the stated of early 3.0 it'll be overpowered. Even if you put it in the middle of the field it'll be too much, look at Gunnery.

Now, if you want to talk about PVE class balance, I invite you to come here

 

First off this thread is about PvE class balance while keeping in mind that what is done in PvE affects PvP. You can't get around that and pretending like they don't interact is pointless. I also said in the beginning that I do not think that Sorc can return to the state it was in between 3.0 and 3.3. With that being said I have no issue with the melee sustain>melee burst>ranged sustain>ranged burst balance approach, but if you are going to do that you need to have a much smaller dps spread. The current spread is way too large to in any way support that methodology as it leaves classes that are ranged burst that are where they are supposed to be, i.e. at the bottom, out in the cold.

 

As to your balance thread that you point to, I have some questions regarding how you have presented your case here. I am assuming that the dps values you have there are meant to be average and not peak dps. With that in mind I will use Bant's numbers to compare. I suggest a 100-200 dps increase for the current system to put Lightning in a position where it can be competitive in NiM (not the best, just competitive). Bant has the current Lightning value at 6470 so if my suggestions were to be applied we are looking at 6560-6670. Now your thread has Lightning at 6790. So what I am seeing here is that you are taking issue with me not making a post about how to rebalance every class and spec instead of just the Class and Spec that I know like the back of my hand. As to your point about Madness/Serenity of course it should be higher dps than it currently is, and it should get a Force management buff too as it shouldn't be Force negative. I think you have missed the point though. This was a post about how to make Lightning better, not address class balance as a whole. Just because I don't address every other spec on how they should perform does not mean that Lightning should not do better damage in order to be competitive in NiM.

 

One additional point for your other thread; please explain how Sorc's, both Madness and Lightning, have bad or nonexistent active defenses. Lightning Barrier absorbs 10k+ (just got buffed so im not sure the exact value now), cloud mind suppression which is 25% damage reduction, and Force Bubble which is immunity to all non 0 damage kill mechanics and damage. Seems to me like they have some really good active defenses

[LudhaninRolgge]

First off this thread is about PvE class balance while keeping in mind that what is done in PvE affects PvP. You can't get around that and pretending like they don't interact is pointless. I also said in the beginning that I do not think that Sorc can return to the state it was in between 3.0 and 3.3. With that being said I have no issue with the melee sustain>melee burst>ranged sustain>ranged burst balance approach, but if you are going to do that you need to have a much smaller dps spread. The current spread is way too large to in any way support that methodology as it leaves classes that are ranged burst that are where they are supposed to be, i.e. at the bottom, out in the cold.

 

As long as BW tries to balance PVE and PVP with the same talent tree, it won't ever work since the 2 are totally different. My thread is about hypothetical PVE class balance, but I know that as long as they don't implement 2 separated trees it'll always be gimped

 

As to your balance thread that you point to, I have some questions regarding how you have presented your case here. I am assuming that the dps values you have there are meant to be average and not peak dps. With that in mind I will use Bant's numbers to compare. I suggest a 100-200 dps increase for the current system to put Lightning in a position where it can be competitive in NiM (not the best, just competitive). Bant has the current Lightning value at 6470 so if my suggestions were to be applied we are looking at 6560-6670. Now your thread has Lightning at 6790. So what I am seeing here is that you are taking issue with me not making a post about how to rebalance every class and spec instead of just the Class and Spec that I know like the back of my hand. As to your point about Madness/Serenity of course it should be higher dps than it currently is, and it should get a Force management buff too as it shouldn't be Force negative. I think you have missed the point though. This was a post about how to make Lightning better, not address class balance as a whole. Just because I don't address every other spec on how they should perform does not mean that Lightning should not do better damage in order to be competitive in NiM.

 

I get that, but as long as the whole class balance is not adjusted, every change is just gonna worsen everything

 

One additional point for your other thread; please explain how Sorc's, both Madness and Lightning, have bad or nonexistent active defenses. Lightning Barrier absorbs 10k+ (just got buffed so im not sure the exact value now), cloud mind suppression which is 25% damage reduction, and Force Bubble which is immunity to all non 0 damage kill mechanics and damage. Seems to me like they have some really good active defenses

 

Force Barrier has a 3' CD, that fairly long (you can reduce it's CD by 30", but you likely wont take this utility in most encounter, Static Barrier just absorbs around 10k anymore than that and you still take a hit, 25% DR on Suppresion is good though. Anyway, that's just subjective opinion. I probably must be a bit biaised by the amount of time I spend on my Shadow though ^^

 

I may have gone a bit too far by seeing the grand scheme of things in your thread and not how it was supposed to be, my bad.

[DarthCognusSion]

As long as BW tries to balance PVE and PVP with the same talent tree, it won't ever work since the 2 are totally different. My thread is about hypothetical PVE class balance, but I know that as long as they don't implement 2 separated trees it'll always be gimped

 

I completely agree that they should be completely separate, but given how long people have said this and the reality of this game, I operate under the assumption that this will never happen. There are other things I would love Lightning to have in PvE that will never happen because of PvP. That is just something that I think we need to accept for now unfortunately.

 

I get that, but as long as the whole class balance is not adjusted, every change is just gonna worsen everything

I understand, and I don't really disagree, but I just don't see Bioware implementing all of the class changes at once, which is what would be necessary. Either we have to deal with this ****** balance the way it is right now til 5.0, whenever that will be, or the can over the course of a few months change a few specs at a time. I don't know which is more likely as they don't seem to care about class balance all that much. I'm just hoping that a dev looks at this thread, and yours, and considers what we are saying. The only other thing I want back is Force Lightning in the rotation again. They don't have to call it Lightning Barrage as the gave that name to Madness passive, but I wish they would bring back the proc. That aside, I believe that for Sorc, the Chaos Nexus and Thundering Blast changes would probably put it in a good spot. That being said, a lot of other classes need some minor or major tweaking to bring them in line with where they should be as well.

I may have gone a bit too far by seeing the grand scheme of things in your thread and not how it was supposed to be, my bad.

No hard feelings. I get a little too excited about Sorc sometimes, Lightning in particular, due to its awkward OP status in PvP and low end in PvE. I appreciate the criticism, and for what it is worth I think your class balance thread looks pretty good. I wish that was what we had right now.

Edited June 9, 2016 by DarthCognusSion

[LudhaninRolgge]

I completely agree that they should be completely separate, but given how long people have said this and the reality of this game, I operate under the assumption that this will never happen. There are other things I would love Lightning to have in PvE that will never happen because of PvP. That is just something that I think we need to accept for now unfortunately.

 

I guess you're right, but I'm an eternal optimistic and as long as this game will live, I think I'll hope for 2 separated trees ^^

 

I understand, and I don't really disagree, but I just don't see Bioware implementing all of the class changes at once, which is what would be necessary. Either we have to deal with this ****** balance the way it is right now til 5.0, whenever that will be, or the can over the course of a few months change a few specs at a time. I don't know which is more likely as they don't seem to care about class balance all that much. I'm just hoping that a dev looks at this thread, and yours, and considers what we are saying. The only other thing I want back is Force Lightning in the rotation again. They don't have to call it Lightning Barrage as the gave that name to Madness passive, but I wish they would bring back the proc. That aside, I believe that for Sorc, the Chaos Nexus and Thundering Blast changes would probably put it in a good spot. That being said, a lot of other classes need some minor or major tweaking to bring them in line with where they should be as well.

 

If they did what they said, little frequent changes to balance, it could have been done. Unfortunately, 6 month is what BW consider frequent.

 

No hard feelings. I get a little too excited about Sorc sometimes, Lightning in particular, due to its awkward OP status in PvP and low end in PvE. I appreciate the criticism, and for what it is worth I think your class balance thread looks pretty good. I wish that was what we had right now.

 

To be fair, I'm not the one who deserve congratulations for it since Aelanis did all the hard work. I just copy-pasted it and edited the thread. But that's encouraging to see I'm not the only one that find this balanced good.

[Bejujular]

I have a couple thoughts. First I think its right to think we could use a small increase, but lightning really is not that far off. I have had a lot of fun in 4.0 so far on my sorc. I missed the night my group killed Calph and Raptus, and we haven't done Sryrak and Brontes yet, but I played lightning on every other fight and haven't embarrassed myself.

 

The movement and force management really are amazing! The AOE is alright, but its not enough to be top dps in any fight I came across. Carnage and virulence are always gonna get more from aoe than lightning.

 

So I like the idea of adding in the extra dps in the polarity shift window, but thats also a buff in pvp. I think lightning in pvp uses less lightning bolts than in pve, so would it make sense to put the small buff there?

[DarthCognusSion]

I have a couple thoughts. First I think its right to think we could use a small increase, but lightning really is not that far off. I have had a lot of fun in 4.0 so far on my sorc. I missed the night my group killed Calph and Raptus, and we haven't done Sryrak and Brontes yet, but I played lightning on every other fight and haven't embarrassed myself.

 

The movement and force management really are amazing! The AOE is alright, but its not enough to be top dps in any fight I came across. Carnage and virulence are always gonna get more from aoe than lightning.

 

So I like the idea of adding in the extra dps in the polarity shift window, but thats also a buff in pvp. I think lightning in pvp uses less lightning bolts than in pve, so would it make sense to put the small buff there?

 

Not bad ideas. I am not an expert on these things. If you haven't seen it, I suggest you take a look at Bant's masterful work here.

[LudhaninRolgge]

I don't know if you've seen, but Bant has proposes those changes

 

 

Sorcerer - Lightning || Sage - Telekinetics

Current DPS: 6470

Goal DPS: 6790

Changes:

Increase Critical Hit chance of Recklessness || Force Potency to 100% (from 60%)

Fix the current interaction between Thundering Blast || Turbulence and SuperCrit.

Increase the duration of the proc from Lightning Flash || Telekinetic Gust to 15s (from 12s)

Increase proc and damage from Forked Lightning || Telekinetic Momentum to 30% (from 25%)

Increase proc and damage from Forked Darkness || Mental Momentum to 30% (from 25%)

Increase Critical Hit Damage Reverberating Force || Reverberations to 15% (from 10%)

Changed DPS: 6793

Reason:

Recklessness to 100% critical chance is a quality of life fix that affects all Inquisitors and Consulars. This plays into the 4.0 super crit and allows Sorcerers to behave the same as the other classes.

The Supercrit bug for Thundering Blast is a quality of life annoyance that can eat recklessness charges without providing any benefits to the caster. This fix is optional due to difficulty of implementation.

Increasing the duration of the buff from Lighting Flash is a quality of life change that extends the buff to the full cooldown of the ability. This is a change that has been needed since the cooldown of Lightning flash was raised to 15s from 12s.

Increasing the proc and damage ratio for Forked Lightning and Forked Darkness is the easiest way to increase damage without making any one move too powerful. This does involve changing coefficients, but since it is a straight percentage it should be easy to change.

Increasing the critical hit damage for most of the moves will increase the overall damage by a slight

 

 

In my proposed PVE balance thread. I think they're really good.

[MusicRider]

The problem with tk/ling is that it has double rng, one from crit and one from double procs, can't recall at the moment any other class that has that. My outlier best parse so far is this: http://parsely.io/parser/view/177941/0. But, from analysing my parses in general I would say mostly they are between 6.1k-6.4k and a few 6.4k+, which is 300 dps variability. Although these two variables are indeed independent, so the model can assume the mean crit and mean forkeds, the chance of actually "rolling" both at their means or better is lower than having one random variable. And even when stars align and both are positive, the top parse is nowhere near other burst classes, at least if compared with arsenal.

 

To changes:

1. supercrit blast for sure

2. I like the proposed idea from another thread of recklessness to 100% as it will make flash and chain superscris also then which is pure dps and burst increase.

3. Regarding the double randomness it is by far the most difficult to find a solution. Another thread suggested increase the chance of the proc, but it hardly resolves the situation.

[DarthCognusSion]

The problem with tk/ling is that it has double rng, one from crit and one from double procs, can't recall at the moment any other class that has that. My outlier best parse so far is this: http://parsely.io/parser/view/177941/0. But, from analysing my parses in general I would say mostly they are between 6.1k-6.4k and a few 6.4k+, which is 300 dps variability. Although these two variables are indeed independent, so the model can assume the mean crit and mean forkeds, the chance of actually "rolling" both at their means or better is lower than having one random variable. And even when stars align and both are positive, the top parse is nowhere near other burst classes, at least if compared with arsenal.

 

To changes:

1. supercrit blast for sure

2. I like the proposed idea from another thread of recklessness to 100% as it will make flash and chain superscris also then which is pure dps and burst increase.

3. Regarding the double randomness it is by far the most difficult to find a solution. Another thread suggested increase the chance of the proc, but it hardly resolves the situation.

 

Yeah i completely agree. I am a big fan of Bant's suggestions as they go a long way to help the spec. I talked to him about possibly changing the proc to a guarantee and then lowering the damage it does (apparently it would be about 1/16th the current damage). This would take out the rng factor, but as Bant reminded me of course it affects Polarity shift too much. The cooldown on it would be so low with all those procs, it would ridiculous. The suggestion being, making a further flat reduction of Polarity shift through Chaos Nexus, or you could reduce the amount of time it shaves off the cooldown (perhaps .5 seconds or something to that effect). I've wracking my brain lately trying to find a good answer to this solution, but I can't seem to find one. Perhaps they could implement something to Lightning like what Massacre does with Ataru form procs for Carnage and possibly tie it into Thundering Blast. This is just me throwing out ideas at this point hoping something sticks. I'm really not sure what to do with it.

[MusicRider]

Yeah i completely agree. I am a big fan of Bant's suggestions as they go a long way to help the spec. I talked to him about possibly changing the proc to a guarantee and then lowering the damage it does (apparently it would be about 1/16th the current damage). This would take out the rng factor, but as Bant reminded me of course it affects Polarity shift too much. The cooldown on it would be so low with all those procs, it would ridiculous. The suggestion being, making a further flat reduction of Polarity shift through Chaos Nexus, or you could reduce the amount of time it shaves off the cooldown (perhaps .5 seconds or something to that effect). I've wracking my brain lately trying to find a good answer to this solution, but I can't seem to find one. Perhaps they could implement something to Lightning like what Massacre does with Ataru form procs for Carnage and possibly tie it into Thundering Blast. This is just me throwing out ideas at this point hoping something sticks. I'm really not sure what to do with it.

 

Possibly, could adjust damage coefficients appropriately, remove the damage proc and leave it only as an alacrity reduction one.

[verfallen]

Possibly, could adjust damage coefficients appropriately, remove the damage proc and leave it only as an alacrity reduction one.

 

The easiest way to do away with the RNG would be removing the procs entirely, and adding 6,25% flat damage to all abilities that used it (since 25% damage bonus 25% of the time normally means 6,25% in an "average" parse)

 

Since it also affects polarity shift, a further blunt cooldown reduction of roughly 15 seconds to 20 seconds from somewhere in the tree should put it back around the current values.

 

When polarity shift is on, additionnaly increase all damage done by 6,25%. This will factor in the double chance to proc most ability had, and would benefit Force Storm to be more on par with Carnage, Virulence and madness while polarity shift is on. Can always be only applied to damage done by LF, LB, CD and TB if its proven to be too hard hitting in AoE situation.

 

As for QoL:

 

Lightning Flash back to 12s OR its proc up to 15s. With alacrity, its not a massive pain, but still you have a small 1,5s window where the proc will fall off and LF is still on cooldown, and CD will sometimes come off cd then, which force you to delay it 2 gcd (1 gcd due to LF on cd, and 1 gcd to cast LF to get the proc).

 

I'd think that LF being reduced to 12s would add some more DPS. we are currently lacking.

 

As of Recklessness, the easiest way I see is to get that useless 6 piece bonus to give that missing 40% crit chance to enable CL and LF supercrits rather than a pretty useless 3rd charge for both dps specs. This would put the 3rd piece similarly on par with sniper's laze target mechanic, altough it does give more control over it than the regular autocrit other class procs every minute. The fact it would be on slightly longer cd, I think, balance it out tough.

 

This is in the optic that it would be too hard for TB to ever get a supercrit from the hypothesis of the autocrit mechanic not being checked at the same time as the recklessness crit buff, and that it would require a total rework of TB to make it work correctly.

 

Correcting TB's travel time so it stop eating a recklessness unless you buffer it with LB would be quite welcomed too.

 

This would also not change pvp too much, which should be corrected via utilities, not the main tree. Lightning isnt that OP in pvp imo, its hard hitting, got decent fight mobility however it lacks the strategic mobility on the offense, altough Phase walk gives good defensive mobility possibilities. (its rather hard to pre-plant phase walk in a offensive position safe for certain specific maps and situation, but still require you to go there yourself 1st).

 

The barrier is a bit strong in arena where cooldown reset between rounds, but for regular WZ the long cd on it doesnt make it that OP. You also have to take an heroic utility to unlock its full strenght, 2 if you also want a lower cooldown. And even with that, you'll need to cc yourself for the full duration.

 

Its especially powerful for sorc heals tough, which is why there is a big outcry about it, where they are already pretty hard to kill, but I wouldnt say its out of line compared to other classes more frequent dcds at least on dps.

 

Obviously, the biggest issue of PvP is less class balance than actually finding an intelligent opinion among pvpers that isnt aimed at making their favorite class FoTM. "Nerf paper, scissor is fine. Signed - Rock"

Edited June 29, 2016 by verfallen

[mwissie]

I like the suggestions from bant that were quoted here

especially autocrit on turb/thundering blast

 

in my opinion the only thing the class needs to be completely on par with others is to have TKwave instant cast (or 1.5sec cast, for pvp) by default (this can be glitched, and if you do, your dps is on par with other classes)

though this would ofc make the proc redundant, maybe replace the proc with a passive activation reduction

 

I completely disagree with the idea that tk/lightning isn't one of the best aoe dps specs ingame

especially if you use an aoe rotation (meaning you have twice as much splash dps, while loosing only like 100 dps on your main target)

one big advantage we have, is being ranged, and pure burst; a few melee dps have strong dotbased aoe

 

also, tk is completely viable for all NiM content, proven by the fact that the tk sage in our raidgroup regularly is top dps (and that's not because the rest sucks); the burst is enough for nearly all mechanics ingame, the sustained is strong, the aoe is great

this class doesn't need much work, a tiny buff, and some QoL fixes is all

[badou]

The problem is that ppl at Bioware see their numbers and numbers say that sorcs are most of the time top dps at pvp games.That makes them believe that sorc dps is really good but if you break it down sorc is the only class that his biggest hit is like 10-13k max when rest of the classes get like 16-20 even 25k hits,many ppl will say so what we got less burst but good dmg overall still not true we get best dps on pvp games cause we can dot their team that doesnt mean we kill them or that we are any usefull.Trying to burst down a healer with a sorc especially a lightning sorc is crazy.What i propose is to make thundering blast hit harder and be on par with the rest of the classes and yes i know its a standar crit but with pvp gear you get like 40% crit chance so most classes crit anyway.Or change the 10% crit bonus to 30% like its on merc/commando and we will be ok dont just look at numbers.

[vfreelancerv]

I couldn't agree more. I too feel that the developers rely too much on leaderboards in the like. I am aware that this thread is discussing PVE status of the lightning spec, but from a PVP perspective, lightning is outright victimized by its single-target damage output. For a BURST spec, it is not up to par.

[Xertasian]

..the old man will add his 2 cents..lightning spec reason why don't have the big burst ..most burst classes have to ramp up to get there burst dps going..sorcs have all there burst up front and rdy to go..actually lightning sorc is fine..the only thing needed to be changed is putting the crit damage bonus back to 50%..

 

reason for this is because lightning suppose to be a quick burst dps class..unfortunately Bioware didn't follow through and made it a semi burst class these days..the 50% crit bonus damage won't effect game play in PVE or PVP..

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

..the old man will add his 2 cents..lightning spec reason why don't have the big burst ..most burst classes have to ramp up to get there burst dps going..sorcs have all there burst up front and rdy to go..actually lightning sorc is fine..the only thing needed to be changed is putting the crit damage bonus back to 50%..

 

reason for this is because lightning suppose to be a quick burst dps class..unfortunately Bioware didn't follow through and made it a semi burst class these days..the 50% crit bonus damage won't effect game play in PVE or PVP..

 

I don't mean to sound critical but if the "50% crit bonus damage won't effect game play in PVE or PVP.." there's really no point in making that change heh.

 

I don't play a sorc, I play a carnage mara, but, I see what they are capable of in PVP, I do agree that they appear to be extremely effective, but the damage is misleading as a great deal of it is "fluff" damage from doting. That said, however, it is still damage being done and pure DPS classes like Sniper and Marauder being out DPSed by Sorc still just doesn't sit well with many players, namely because at the same time these Sorcs are out DPSing them they are also out-surviving them. They are doing more DPS and a shizload of healing to boot. When healers are doing more damage than DPS specs, something is not exactly right.

 

To be fair, however, it is vital to seperate PVP from PVE. Because the nerfs that are slamming the hell out of Sorcs and Assys while they may have some legitimate grounds in PVP, they are undeserved in PVE. This disparity between the two modes of play is no secret. Everyone is aware of this underlying problem that continues to unbalance everytime changes are made is the name of balance.

 

Sadly, just because a nerf or a buff may be deserved in one mode of play, that it is undeserved in the other mode of play, can't be used as grounds to leave a class under or overperforming in said one mode of play. It's a vicious cycle.

 

Until PVP and PVE have seperate modes of play independent of each other balance is an impossibility. While lightning spec may not warrant a nerf, sorc healers has been begging for a nerf for a long time and I am in favor of it [in pvp , and no one in pvp loves a healer more than a mara] They're just too potent.

 

I'm not at all in favor of sorc nerfs in pve.

 

Best of luck to all you PVE Sorcs in the new meta. I hope the changes don't turn out to be as severe as they seem.

Edited October 6, 2016 by WayOfTheWarriorx