The [Tactical] Damage Dealer Tanking.

[Rabenschwinge]

As someone who doesn't do operation, but still does conquest I do a lot of flashpoints, to reap the daily bonus with several characters. Tactical flashpoints with an actual level 65, particularly if you actually have relatively good gear (which basically means at least 208 in average over all 14 slots and full augments in this context) you are tanking, no matter what your class and roll is.

 

That's perfectly fine when you have a healer who knows what he's doing and when you're playing a class that has at least a taunt and decent off tanking capacities. My vigilance guardian typically acts like a tank by default in tactical flashpoint (unless there is an actual tank of at least level 40, of course).

 

There are encounters which are really painful. In "The Red Reaper" there are quite a few with loads of strong enemies, but neither bosses nor normal enemies. You can't mitigate the damage with Awe, because they are droids, you can't mitigate the damage with Vigilant Thrust, because they are strong and it only stuns normal enemies. They go down faster than boss types, but you still have to eat the entirety of the damage for quite a while.

 

In general, due to the healing terminals, the boss fights aren't really the difficult part any more. The group at the entrance of the temple in Korriban Incursion is one of the toughest - you get through eventually because enemies you kill stay dead, but it's rare that I can take a group through there without loosing a team mate (and I do have the ambition to keep everyone alive).

 

Particularly frustrating is it when you end up having all the aggro with a character that is absolutely not cut out for it, such as my marksmanship sniper.

 

The most stupid thing about it is that there is no way a tank can learn how to play their role, because even if I drop aggro regularly on a level 65 I still have aggro. There is no way a healer can learn their roles because there is no way a mid level healer can keep up with the terminals or with a companion.

[Nkya]

In typical pug, you have newbie tunneling on the strongest one or using AOE: leave them having fun playing the meat shield. Kill trash one by one from weaker to stronger. Don't use AOE unless you're sure you can stand all the aggro.

 

But i aggree it's unfair. Low level can do whatever; they have no punishment (low gear repair or no gear repair at all since they're upgrading often). Higher geared player tend to play the role they're not wanting to play and pay credits for group mistakes.

[Rabenschwinge]

In typical pug, you have newbie tunneling on the strongest one or using AOE: leave them having fun playing the meat shield. Kill trash one by one from weaker to stronger. Don't use AOE unless you're sure you can stand all the aggro.

 

It helps a lot if they at least have the patience to wait when I say my defensive abilities need to come off cooldown first.

[Warlocc]

I see this a lot on my tank- DPS focusing on the strongs instead of killing off the weak ones... Meaning I have to switch to the weak ones and try to keep all the threat off the healer (or weakest player), and I wind up holding no threat at all, or having to let people die to try to gather everything up.

 

Or they simply pull boss threat, forcing the healer to have to use terminals to keep up with all the damage they're taking.

 

Honestly, I do sometimes wish the content were more difficult. I feel like if people died more, they'd dial it back a little.

[KevinQCowart]

I thought the flashpoint meta was kick the lowest level noob and summon an OP healer companion?

 

Ive soloed a few tacticals just for kicks they are hilariously easy. I even soloed Korriban on a level 65 Watchmen in PvP gear with a level 46 healer comp, and yeah that door mob was my only wipe.

[Warlocc]

I thought the flashpoint meta was kick the lowest level noob and summon an OP healer companion?

 

Ive soloed a few tacticals just for kicks they are hilariously easy. I even soloed Korriban on a level 65 Watchmen in PvP gear with a level 46 healer comp, and yeah that door mob was my only wipe.

 

The system is in a terrible place when flashpoints are easier solo (with a companion) than they are with other players.

[gabigool]

The thing is, tacticals are simple if you have a group that fully communicates.

 

Do you try marking each target, assigning particular ones to your team, and use cc's? If your groups are wiping on trash I can pretty much promise they would not wipe by marking /assigning.

 

Or you could put down the nub pants and do it properly, by having the DPS focus down the weak stuff first.

 

The problem is not that the content is hard. It is not. Not even a little bit.

 

The problem is you have people in your group that do not know what they are doing. 99% of the time one or two of the DPS are going to tunnel the strongest mob and your group is going to get wrecked. And telling them a way to do it properly/safely will usually get ignored.

 

/shrug this is swtor man, the game that Ben & others have made consistent systematic changes to encourage the lack of skill development. They believe it is a richer experience for players to not have to worry about bothersome, tiring issues such as knowledge or effort.

 

Group in this game, you will be grouped with people who do not yet realize their character can actually die. They will certainly have no idea how threat works and they will get you killed. Repeatedly.

 

edit: zomg I forgot to mention. You probably are doing tacticals in the first place because they pop as a DPS. Obviously HMFP's never do, right? no - actually they do if you stay in the queue for 45 mins or so and sadly, as DPS, you'll take FAR more agro in there. GL!

Edited May 28, 2016 by gabigool

[Rabenschwinge]

Hmmm... you refer to "the damage dealer" as though there any other characters, which isn't the norm. In a typical tactical flashpoint you have three damage dealers and either a healer or a tank.

 

The tanks usually don't realize that they are supposed to attack first, and while I do try to make them, it doesn't always help, and even if they do, they are rarely familiar with their defensive abilities. The concept of healing seems to be something that the fewest healers are familiar with.

 

I've been in The Foundry [HM], yesterday, playing the tank (Darkness Assassin). That healer... he rushed forward and cast a lightning storm straight into the group before I had the chance of sorting things. We had to ask him several times to stop attacking at all and focus on healing. He did. For like ten seconds.

 

About the difficulty: Yes and no. I've been around for a while and I know what flashpoints were like when the game was new. An example where we had a good group, were discussing things, changing tactics and just didn't cut it was without a level 65 in the Maelstrom Prison. The fight against Kilran. I was the toughest group member and a penetrating blasts from him took two third of my health. A single one snipe (and if you want to attack you cannot hide behind the pillars forever) was a one shot for half of us.

 

We had a level 22 healer and the rest was damage dealers, ranging from level 32 to 40. In a hard mode version it's ridiculously simple compared to that if all are level 65, because he cannot one-shot you and you have an actual tank and an actual healer. I am inclined to say: If you have a group of low levels in a tactical flashpoints, there are situations when even experienced players can't go on, and it is a lot harder, even with the terminals, than it used to be when the game was new. If you don't believe it, try it. Hard mode flashpoints with level 65 characters only are a lot easier than tactical flashpoints without either a balanced group or a character of level 60+. And that includes Kaon Under Siege or Lost Island.

 

This isn't primarily about the lack of experience with other player. I am just saying I am frustrated with tanking on characters who are not tanks. But what else do you want to do? Take the Beastmaster in Mandalorian Raiders. Someone must take the boss aside and if I play the by far toughest character in a group of four damage dealers, it's better me than anyone else. That's not a fault of my team members, that's what happens when you don't have a tank.

 

Being carried through by a level 65 is the most viable way to go about a tactical flashpoint right now. Even if they attack the mobs in a meaningful order, pay attention to each other and who has aggro and don't do anything rash or foolish. Even if you determine an order at every single encounter.

 

I wish they'd revert the system to the old story mode flashpoints. Each flashpoint with its own meaningful level range and enforce balanced groups. The group finder would only offer appropriate flashpoints and the healing terminals would be removed. Then things would start to make sense again, and new players had at least the chance of learning something.

Edited May 28, 2016 by Rabenschwinge

[MWidowmaker]

its painful but not impossible on my sorc. and i've had to use cloud mind more times than i remember when we have an actual tank and i rip agro from them too... ditto on my sniper

[JediQuaker]

. Tactical flashpoints with an actual level 65, you are tanking, no matter what your class and roll is.

I would disagree. Tacticals don't even require a tank. and just because enemies are attacking you, doesn't make you a tank.

From what I've seen in gameplay, and posts on these forums, the people who have the hardest time with Tacticals are the ones that insist on trying to impose their "role" on the mechanics. If you stop worrying about tanking (or healing) and just kill stuff, it goes much easier.

I've done lots of Tacticals with teams of 4 DPS with no problems. I've also done tacticals as a healer and spent most of the time just DPS'ing.

Edited May 28, 2016 by JediQuaker

[Rabenschwinge]

I would disagree. Tacticals don't even require a tank. and just because enemies are attacking you, doesn't make you a tank.

From what I've seen in gameplay, and posts on these forums, the people who have the hardest time with Tacticals are the ones that insist on trying to impose their "role" on the mechanics. If you stop worrying about tanking (or healing) and just kill stuff, it goes much easier.

I've done lots of Tacticals with teams of 4 DPS with no problems. I've also done tacticals as a healer and spent most of the time just DPS'ing.

 

That would be the other extreme. If you're not flexible enough to adjust your tactics to the situation, you die. But that doesn't change the problem.

[casirabit]

I am going to have to disagree with you. My healer has no trouble keeping up with the healing but then again I started healing in hard modes before tactical were ever introduced. The tactical on my healer are simple compared to the hard modes.

 

The problem with learning your role some people don't pay attention to what is going on and no a dps should not tank if there is a tank there. That is where the problem comes in at.

[lightSaberAddiCt]

Tactical's (in my point of view only), are probably the worst thing to ever happen to this game. It has basically told people it is ok to just churn and burn, no need to worry about those pesky mechanics, or crowd control, or even aggro management. Just run in and burn down.

 

Then when they get into HM GF's, basically they can't seem to understand why people are so mad at them, or vote kick them within 5 minutes, and like an above poster stated, pull a comp because they can do a better job then a PC.

 

It is kind of a sad, endless chain of bleh....

[Rabenschwinge]

I am going to have to disagree with you. My healer has no trouble keeping up with the healing but then again I started healing in hard modes before tactical were ever introduced. The tactical on my healer are simple compared to the hard modes.

 

The problem with learning your role some people don't pay attention to what is going on and no a dps should not tank if there is a tank there. That is where the problem comes in at.

 

I believe you're mixing up two independent statements of mine: With a level 65 it is in fact easy to carry a group through, easier than a hard mode flashpoint. I can solo many of them with a decent companion. So, it does happen that I say "thank you" when the first rage quits, because then I can pull my companion and finish the rest in easy mode.

 

I just find it frustrating that I end up tanking, but I know how much I can take and it's not like it was me who was dying if things go wrong. If things go wrong I have to do as most players suggest, take it one enemy at a time. And the consequence is usually that two team mates die, because they can't take the heat like I can.

 

And yes, part of the problem is usually that the other damage dealers typically go for the biggest mob, even split up if there is two of them, and don't care about the rest, or that there is a strong enemy attacking the healer.

 

What is difficult, and in fact more difficult than a hard mode flashpoint is when you're in a tactical without either a balanced group or a level 65. I cannot imagine how anyone can seriously disagree with that, unless they haven't played a low level char in a long time... a hard mode flashpoint, assuming that you don't have the occasional level 50 tank in pvp gear in the group, is a walk in the park compared to that. You go there, beat the crap out of everyone and be done with it.

 

But that is an entirely different topic.

Edited May 28, 2016 by Rabenschwinge

[cyrusramsey]

I have very mixed feelings about this. For the most part I am happy with the changes, this is that while the old SM FPs were more.. let's say 'orderly', relatively speaking, they barely ever happened anymore for me, and I don't play on one of the servers that's been declared virtually dead, though also not on one of the few big ones.

 

Low level FPs like hammer station and athiss taught me to love tanking and I can't help but assume that if I had started playing in the tactical era, I might not have discovered that joy, being someone who actively avoided guilds and knew nothing of trinity before this game.

 

That said.. I find that the current state of things requires more insight into a situation and better judgment. Whether it's to purposefully let the group keep the brunt of the enemy forces off you while you thin the pack, only to unleash your AoE hell when it's become something you can manage, or using whatever utility, sense and situational awareness you have to keep your group alive.. and I would like to note that this is coming from someone who does not like to talk to strangers and will rarely discuss such strategies beforehand, but also from someone who's been known to carry groups on lowbies as well as 65s.

 

On the other hand.. the pool of players does feel like it has become more clueless, from my perspective. Is this the fault of tacticals? I think it's more likely that the game was just made so much easier that a large portion of players has not felt the need to examine their strategy. Rather call tacticals broken and return to facerolling soloplay than to acknowledge that you might not be carrying your weight.

 

I would not want to go back. Flashpoints are my favorite filler activity in the game, and having to wait long times for HMs, even as tank or healer, on occasion, is bad enough, I'd hate it if my fast popping tacticals were taken away from me now that I've gotten used to them.

 

If anything.. I'd suggest that the game implement some sort of useful tutorial. The game is absolutely horrible at teaching people how to play, so if they do not find anyone to teach them, they will not learn.

 

I have 39 characters on my primary server, level most almost exclusively via flashpoints, play all classes, all tank specs, all heal specs and most dps specs; I realize that I might be upper bracket experience wise, at least relatively speaking, but any class at any level can make themselves useful, even if they don't have their full utility or are able to put out the large numbers. This is not about skill in the traditional sense, but insight and adaptability.

[Rabenschwinge]

I believe that before you even start improvising, you need a deep understanding of your character in a traditional sense. In a low level group of four damage dealers only it is more efficient to split enemy groups up, so that everyone takes a part of the heat, rather than a single one character everything, but still focus attacks on one or two enemies at a time. But before you teach that to a player they need to have a deep understanding of the aggro mechanic and the ability to asses the different kinds of threat that enemies pose - may it be through damage, pushbacks or whatever.

 

It difficult enough to teach another to recognize and not break crowd control effects. Even if a new player recognizes a CC from a shadow, they might miss one from a sage or a scoundrel.

 

I perfectly agree, per se, that being flexible in tactics rather than using a stiff triad approach is a good thing, but the basics need to sit first.

Edited May 28, 2016 by Rabenschwinge

[kirorx]

Aside from having the tank/healer and 2 dps players; The best way to crush tacticals...is two or three players with a healer companion out. 2 players and 2 healer companions...unkillable.

 

When someone inevitablly drops an all dps group, i always suggest just grabbing a healer companion.

 

I understand the dps/tank feel in tacticals......my commando gets put it spot often, but it works out because he has so much mobility and plenty of utilities

 

Also, suggest using LOS a lot with the mobs, that seems to help a bit. I dont bother much with cc because you get a lot of newer people that are still in the learning process

Edited May 29, 2016 by kirorx

[Astaldoath]

tacticles are insanely simple if people just use half their brain. Really thats all there is to it. When ive been with a good group, ive never had a problem, but when you get these lower than 30 players, they cannot do anything, they cant keep up with damage, or tanking or heals. The Tacticles should be split, at 35. 35 and below 1 group, 35 and above another group, so a 20 cant group with a 65.

 

Thats my opinion, then all the idiots will have to group together and it will be funny watching them cry at how hard it is and maybe then they will learn how to play them properly

[Rabenschwinge]

Aside from having the tank/healer and 2 dps players; The best way to crush tacticals...is two or three players with a healer companion out. 2 players and 2 healer companions...unkillable.

 

When someone inevitablly drops an all dps group, i always suggest just grabbing a healer companion.

 

I understand the dps/tank feel in tacticals......my commando gets put it spot often, but it works out because he has so much mobility and plenty of utilities

 

Also, suggest using LOS a lot with the mobs, that seems to help a bit. I dont bother much with cc because you get a lot of newer people that are still in the learning process

 

What I find really frustrating is when you have an impatient experienced player. The main problem with trying to explain things is that 90% of the time you have a player who can't be bothered with waiting. The problem with experienced players is that they always want to speed run it, complain a lot about "stupid" players but never explain anything!

 

Even when I am playing a tank (i.e. an actual tank, my darkness assassin), put markers on enemies and am going to explain things, an experienced players who considers "speed tanking is the only true way" will cut things short and take matters into their own hand.

 

Then there is no guarantee that level 65s actually know what they are doing. Example: Blood Hunt, I was playing a level 42 damage dealer. The others were all level 65. The flashpoint was in-progress and before I even finished loading I saw a "kick message". Unfortunately it didn't follow through. They hadn't even killed the first boss yet!

 

The first boss then suddenly constitute a problem no longer, because suddenly there was someone dealing with the adds and clicking the terminals, both concepts that seems beyond some players. However, I was still eventually kicked from the group. We failed at the fight vs. the Jos and Valk. They stood in the middle of the arena and reaped the full damage of Jos's knife attacks and ignoring all kinds of area of effects, while I was running from terminal to terminal like crazy. Eventually Jos pushed me off the platform, though, and that was a mistake they weren't willing to forgive someone below max level.

Edited May 29, 2016 by Rabenschwinge