Point of a Tank?

[Eotienses]

I love Juggernaut.. even the name.. Juggernaut.. reminds you of the man standing admit the carnage and while he is beaten broken bruised and bleeding, he stands ... I know the job of a tank in a WZ, i guard the healer, stand on/by them, CC for them so they don't get beat to hell, Before this starts i am lvl 65, with 208 PvP gear, fully augmented with 208 augs. and full expertise crystals.

 

But whats the point, when any assassin or Shadow running the new "hello I'm god" hybrid gear can 3 shot you. By running in a circle and spamming that stupid stab. Then vanish easily and repeat the process on the next poor shmuck who entered the wrong WZ at the wrong time.

The new "glitch" that lets Sorc / Sage be invisible even when your beating the ever loving hell outta em (and I've seen it too often for it to be a random "bug")

 

I like to PvP, i don't mind losing, when our team is crap, i don't mind losing when you have no communication, or yoru team makes mistakes..

 

I DO mind losing when its not the fault of the team, but the cheese-tastic crap of the other side. teams of 3-4 Shadow Hybrids running in circles stabbing you with what ever that thing is that takes like 1/4 of your hp bar. invisible Sage's running around the Wz that you can see the name over there head, but can only target them with Tab or when they are hit by tech they light up like they have a shield. .

 

Example - Names removed -

http://imgur.com/u2VqnQl

 

This was the 4th time I've seen a Sage with this "bug" they are invisible, you cant see em , when you hit em they light up a bit, as you can see in the picture, (thanks to my team-mate) otherwise you see a name, and that is it ,

 

The mage thing, could be a bug, could be glitch,.. its livable, harder to work around sometimes, when you take the nameplates off, but its doable.. the Sin doing 1/3 a Juggernauts HP by running in circles and spamming a single ability.. is dumb. 3-4 hits and the Tank dies.. WTH are the other people supposed to do? bend over? its about all it seems you can do, oh look a team of sin's , is there a surrender button? and i know its most likely the same team of people, and i know there is really nothing anyone can do about it. Save try not to get put against em, but I am tried of people who exploit a bug, some part of a game system then think they are so skilled cuz they abuse it. its sad

 

Tank spec, DPS gear, you're welcome.

[kweassa]

I think you've got that covered.

 

Nothing much else to do.

 

65.3k with the end stim (62.9k w/o), 54.72% shield chance, 26.25% defense chance.

 

I can always swap to a dps set mid-match.

 

You could divert the shield-related stats to a standard END related modificiations, which will bring your HP upto little over 70k at same defense chance, and around 35% shield... although there probably won't be much difference in functionality.

[Lalainnia]

Tanks in dps gear have always been stupidly strong and the importance of tank gear is far to weak. The surge in damage thought was mostly brought on in 3.1 ish when they intially buffed tank damage on sins and jugs to bring them closer to overturned pt tank damage and buff them in pve cause dps are stupid and won't let their tanks get aggro. Those didn't translate well into 4.0 with the crit changes and general over all power creep.

 

If ppl want to reduce tank damage I would personally just add a 10% crit damage reduction for the tank stance in addition to the other stuff it already has. Then add a new tank move called intimidate that matchs (not force to attack like a taunt) the aggro of the highest threat 6 targets max 30m range on a 35 or 40 sec cd this way the damage nerf won't hurt pve and if anything would buff pve

[kweassa]

Tanks in dps gear have always been stupidly strong and the importance of tank gear is far to weak. The surge in damage thought was mostly brought on in 3.1 ish when they intially buffed tank damage on sins and jugs to bring them closer to overturned pt tank damage and buff them in pve cause dps are stupid and won't let their tanks get aggro. Those didn't translate well into 4.0 with the crit changes and general over all power creep.

 

I've mentioned it elsewhere, but if to repeat myself, the changes in relation to 3.x and 4.x certainly may have affected certain things, but basically complaints along these lines have always existed even right after launch.

 

IIRC it was sometime around 1.2 where numerous tests from theorycrafters have exactly figured out how tanking works in game (the relation between damage types, defense and shield mechanics, etc etc..), and between 1.2 ~ 1.5 there was the great "TTK debate" started from some posts from Taugrim, which caused a big ruckus among players locked into to differing factions where one sided supported the (then) current "Time To Kill" factor, while the others thought it was way too short.

 

Around that time the game's most renowned guardians and juggernauts were constantly trying to remind the problems with how defense stats become useless in PvP, and therefore a change is required. Sadly, for the last 5 years it seems to have fallen on deaf ears.

 

 

If ppl want to reduce tank damage I would personally just add a 10% crit damage reduction for the tank stance in addition to the other stuff it already has. Then add a new tank move called intimidate that matchs (not force to attack like a taunt) the aggro of the highest threat 6 targets max 30m range on a 35 or 40 sec cd this way the damage nerf won't hurt pve and if anything would buff pve

 

IMO, like mentioned before, the general premise for a tank class/build to find a role as a tank, would be:

 

★ Tanky stats and specs should be what defines a tank's role

 

I don't disagree with some of the comments in this thread about what makes a good SWTOR tank. But like I've repeatedly mentioned, the big irony is none of such roles are actually involved with tanky stats -- which IMO should define a tank.

 

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1. Dealing CCs, interruptions, certain buffs/debuffs and generally being a hinderance/disruption to enemies

→ any class with a healer behind its back can do generally the same thing

 

2. Dealing ST/AoE taunts to reduce damage

→ DPS builds have the exact same ability

 

3. Guard

→ Only unique function a tank has, but unrelated to tanky stats, and therefore, any 'skank' does the same

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I don't wish the tank to be an unkillable monster even without healers, but currently, we're seriously weak. Some setups with high-END does seem to last a certain amount, but as mentioned, since the base "tankistats" aren't functioning well enough for tanks, the resilience of a tank (guardian/juggs, for example) is entirely governed by its four main CD powers which have at the least 1.5min cooldown. This means any 'skank' could last as long as any 'tank' in the first place.

 

IMO active defense powers with 2~3min long CDs should be a considerable BOOSTER mechanic to increase survival, but I don't think its reasonable for a tank to entirely depend on it. Sorc/sage healers have the (often despised) Force Barrier and PW mechanic, but that doesn't mean their survival totally depends on it. In most combat/engagement situations, its their ability to heal itself that keeps them alive and going. We can easily confirm this by comparing to TK/Lightning sorc/sages, in which case their survival is really, really weak despite having the same FB and PW.

 

This is the reason why some people consider sent/maras having actually better defense mechanics than guard/juggs, which I tend to agree with. Unless tankistats take constant effect during PvP combat, the (real tank build) tank in PvP doesn't have any unique role outside of the Guard toggle, and that one toggle power does more to benefit the team than your entire stat, spec, build.

 

...

 

We need Defense to work against all attacks.

 

Its almost penalizing when you have to try so hard to bring up the defense chance. Work your arse off and 2,000 defense only gives me 25% base, and 35% on average due to certain combat buffs. This hard earned, low chance Defense doesn't work on around half or more attacks thrown at us.

 

To add insult to injury: accuracy -- a stat which PvPers don't even consider as tertiary, or even quarternary... something which is just considered non-important bonus stat, something everyone gains without even thinking about it, just straight-off-the-top guts the defense chance

 

- 111% accuracy is a 44% debuff to my defense chance (25% base defense -> 14%)

- 105% accuracy is a 20% debuff to my defense chance (25% base defense -> 20%)

 

Tanks go through terrible burdens to gain around 25% Defense chance by gaining around 2,000 defense point under that abysmal diminishing returns/soft cap (can't really go above 2,000, because at this point, even a +120 defense gains you increase less than 1% -- by decimals), and a non-essential stat others just gain without even thinking about it, neuters it to the ground.

Edited April 8, 2016 by kweassa

[kweassa]

As long as fantasizing goes, this would be probably my take on what changes are required to make a guardian/juggernaut viable as a real "tank" in PvP:

 

1. Changes to Redoubt Augment

Problems

● Redoubt augment is allocated POW, DEF stats, and doesn't include any END - despite being a defensive aug.

 

Suggestions

● change the augment stat allocation to END, DEF, rather than current POW, DEF

● simplest change of all -- at least let DEF tanks have as much total HP as any other build

 

 

2. Tweak efficency of DEF stats

Problems

● currently DEF meets very heavy diminishing returns at 2,000 DEF @ 25% chance in total

● as a DEF tank build. guard/juggs can average the DEF chance to stabilize around 35% in combat

 

Suggestions

● tweak a bit so 2,000 DEF grants around +10% more chance @ 35%

● this will allow guard/juggs to maintain around 45% chance in combat

 

 

3. DEF needs to work against all attack types at initial hit/miss calculation

Problems

● at the initial hit/miss calc., all incoming attacks are categorized melee, ranged, force, tech

● currently, DEF chance calc. is simply ignored against force, tech

● on average, around half or more attacks made in PvP are force, tech

● on average, force, tech attacks constitute some the most damaging attacks in the game

● in comparison melee, ranged has some high-damage attacks, but most are low damage fillers and setups

 

Suggestions

● DEF needs to work against all four damage types that initally determine hit/miss

 

 

4. Changes to Saber Ward

Problems

● Saber Ward currently offers +50% DEF chance, and +25% DR against force/tech

● despite the impressive looking stats, force/tech just simply penetrates this +50% DEF chance

● the above is why they added a +25% DR against force/tech

● in reality, just like the dilemma of DEF chance, all force/tech simply ignores Saber Ward

● in reality, Saber Ward is nothing more than a 0.75 multiplier to incoming force/tech damage

 

Suggestions

● Reduce SW DEF chance boost from 50% to 40%

● Remove the +25% force/tech DR

● Have the new DEF chance mechanic apply the same with Saber Ward

● for real tanks with investment into DEF, the new SW will be quite more efficient than old SW

● for non-tank builds and sent/maras, the new SW will be roughly similar to old SW

 

4. Changes to Guard

Problems

● currently, the toggled Guard function splits incoming damage by half for the guardee

● the above, can be considered an equivalent of a free +50% DR to all

● currently, the toggled Guard function is the same for all builds/types and unassociated with tanky stats

● the functionality of Guard, has no difference between a 'tank' and a 'skank'

● it is essentially a free, (almost) unconditional +50% DR which is way too powerful when used on a healer

 

Suggestions

● before splitting damage, the incoming damage will first go through the Guarding tank's DEF/SHD calc

● if damage makes through the Guarding tank's DEF/SHD, the split will be 75:25, not 50:50

● the guardee, will receive 75% of damage, not 50%

● the tank, will receive 20% of damage, not 50%

 

 

5. Changes to Soresu form

Problems

● if above changes are implemented, the combined effects with Soresu form bonuses will be too powerful

 

Suggestions

● change the 6% resistance bonus to all damage, to +3% DEF chance

● decrease the 60% armor rating bonus to +40%

 

...these changes are almost on the level of a class redesign, and probly unlikely that even one of them will ever happen. But Pretty much this would be a tank-build guardian/juggernaut I'd take pride in PvP.

[Ansultares]

You could divert the shield-related stats to a standard END related modificiations, which will bring your HP upto little over 70k at same defense chance, and around 35% shield... although there probably won't be much difference in functionality.

I already have a set like that. 84.3k hp, 35.46 shield chance, 33.55 absorb, full alacrity augments. Edited April 8, 2016 by Ansultares

[Altheran]

As long as fantasizing goes, this would be probably my take on what changes are required to make a guardian/juggernaut viable as a real "tank" in PvP:

 

[...]

 

...these changes are almost on the level of a class redesign, and probly unlikely that even one of them will ever happen. But Pretty much this would be a tank-build guardian/juggernaut I'd take pride in PvP.

 

I'd add two more thing :

 

1. Shield overrides crit chances not the latter. (Maybe with allowing crits over 100% to consume a bit of the crit chances)

 

Allowing both shield to override crit and crit over 100% to override shield would look like something barbaric like that :

 

Is "crit > 100%"

- If yes, is "crit - 100% > shield"

- - If yes, then "effective crit = 100%", "effective surge = surge + (crit - 100% - shield)", "effective shield = 0"

- - If no, then "effective shield = shield - (crit - 100%)", "effective crit = 100% - effective shield"

- If no, then "effective crit = min (crit, 100% - shield)"

 

 

 

2. Shield works against every direct attack, meaning only DoTs (and possibly sticky grenades) bypass it.

 

This one is a minor change as most DoTs already bypass it already by being elemental/internal based, but would rule out the handful of direct attacks that currently does as Flame Burst, Flame Thrower, Force in Balance and Thunder Blast. (I believe that's about all it exists in this damage type dealing direct damage)

The only addition to the inclusion list would be the only energetic DoT ever : Force Breach/Discharge.

 

 

That aside, I have to express my doubts about guard splitting damage in 75:25. Even with both our consolidation of defensive stats, I believe that would be too intense for the tank considering the very limited tankiness the stats can bring. I think they would still be far from being able to stomach such amount of damage, as tank stats cap at rather low values.