Are ops/raids outdated?

[LordDelectus]

I love ops and the gear grind, but they simply need to add more operations.

 

I am sorry, but the Underlurker needs to be nerfed. I have been in SO, SO, SOOOOO many groups that wipe on him like none other.

[Shwarzchild]

This entire conversation has gotten so far off the rails that I bet the OP doesn't even remember what their original stance was. It 's seemingly turned from "grouping is too slow and makes this process boring" to something completely different.

 

Basically, as stated earlier...way earlier...in this thread I believe...IF you want to raid and not spend so much time running circles around the fleet looking for groups for harder content than kp and ev hm then you'll need to join a guild. As refuted previously a guild does not mean that you will be automatically required to schedule your game play accordingly. Simply go over to the server forum where you call home, start a thread in guild recruitment and list your goals, and what you want to get out of a guild. You most likely will get a response from some recruiter from some guild that meets at least most of your requirements.

 

The fact that you want to dumb the content down so you don't have to make any effort at all is insulting to put it bluntly. For instance you claim that these operations and rescaling them to the current level was a wrong choice. I disagree. I'm having the most fun raiding in my entire raiding career. I just killed nightmare firebrand and storm on level for the very first time and I finally got some satisfaction out of a boss kill in what feels like forever. For people who are like me that love this nim content on level we're pretty pumped about things. Yes we lost a section of high level raiders who had previously completed these fights, but we're replacing them with new raiders who relish the challenge of on level nim operations after being carried by 3.0.

 

Your opinion, OP, is yours, and yours alone. There might be others who agree with you, but there are also others like me who think you are so out of your depth it's frankly crazy talk.

[Slowpokeking]

This entire conversation has gotten so far off the rails that I bet the OP doesn't even remember what their original stance was. It 's seemingly turned from "grouping is too slow and makes this process boring" to something completely different.

 

Basically, as stated earlier...way earlier...in this thread I believe...IF you want to raid and not spend so much time running circles around the fleet looking for groups for harder content than kp and ev hm then you'll need to join a guild. As refuted previously a guild does not mean that you will be automatically required to schedule your game play accordingly. Simply go over to the server forum where you call home, start a thread in guild recruitment and list your goals, and what you want to get out of a guild. You most likely will get a response from some recruiter from some guild that meets at least most of your requirements.

 

The fact that you want to dumb the content down so you don't have to make any effort at all is insulting to put it bluntly. For instance you claim that these operations and rescaling them to the current level was a wrong choice. I disagree. I'm having the most fun raiding in my entire raiding career. I just killed nightmare firebrand and storm on level for the very first time and I finally got some satisfaction out of a boss kill in what feels like forever. For people who are like me that love this nim content on level we're pretty pumped about things. Yes we lost a section of high level raiders who had previously completed these fights, but we're replacing them with new raiders who relish the challenge of on level nim operations after being carried by 3.0.

 

Your opinion, OP, is yours, and yours alone. There might be others who agree with you, but there are also others like me who think you are so out of your depth it's frankly crazy talk.

 

I did join a guild, but they don't have the interest to run hard ops again. Also we are talking about VERY OLD ops, why should it be guild only mostly?

 

Again, the current system is the most "dumbed down" version of SWTOR EVER HAD. Offering TOP TIER gear to people from very easy and old HM ops. Have you even run the ops after KOTFE?

[Slowpokeking]

We're getting new content. It just doesn't appear it's new content that you want. That's fine. Not everything is for everyone. New PvP content would be wasted on me, for example.

 

I do want the story, but I don't think that alone could hold this game as a sub based MMO. Having new PVP arena is fine but we need more than that.

 

 

If "raiders left", they left. There still seem to be enough players engaging in raids from what I've noticed. Maybe it's a problem with your realm? Or maybe we're talking about two different things. I already mentioned that if there were more players asking for/involved with raiding to begin with instead of those clamoring for more story-based content, that's where BioWare would be putting their efforts, because it would keep players around, both to subscribe and to spend money in the Cartel Market. That the content they're putting out focuses more on story than on raids should tell you something, not about BioWare's concern for the game and its health, but about where the players are showing through their play metrics where they want to spend their time in the game.

They left and there aren't enough new raiders coming in because this game is not offering new ops. What do you mean enough people? Try to call for NIM ops like NIM DF on Harbinger, see how hard it is to find a group.

 

 

Was that in question? I don't recall challenging the amount of raid content that exists or existed in the past.

 

So tell me, why should such a big amount of end game PVE content be kept from the majority, after so many years of its release?

 

No one said "they" don't like story (and who do you mean by "they"?). But the fact that our new content is based on story instead of providing a new set of endgame raids should tell you that with limited resources, more of those resources are being put on story-based content than endgame raiding because that's where BioWare's metrics are showing the players want to be.

 

Sure I like the story, I played SWTOR for the story first. But it doesn't mean you can totally depend on that since the story could only be done once and now we only got 1 storyline going on.

 

The game seems to be doing about as well as a F2P game can be. WildStar would kill for the numbers this game is pulling in.

When the new content is sub based?

 

We're getting new content, on a monthly basis.

But only the story.

 

Why do you care how other players get their gear?

Because raid is not solo content, the difficulty to form a group is depended on the players' focus.

 

What is it you want here? Do you want to be able to go into older content with 1 or 2 people and just clear it the way the unscaled older content in WoW acts? Or do you want things to be very hard so people have to form a full raid to get their gear?

I think we should have a good system which doesn't kept these old content from people and have challenge for people.

 

I'm not sure you know what you're asking for or arguing about at this point.

 

I know, I think the current system is garbage, it's not pleasing either side, nor is it keeping the challenge.

[Slowpokeking]

I haven't run them under 4.0, so I'm not sure how they would be divided. It's a moot point anyway, BW removed "Tier" classifications of endgame content 3 years ago and hasn't been interested in bringing it back.

 

One thing you have to realize is that the devs have expressly stated they're never doing NM again.

 

http://dulfy.net/2015/08/06/swtor-gamescom-cantina-tour-qa/

 

 

So it's a bit hard to answer "what's the point for NM" as regards the current system.

 

But historically, one purpose of NM modes was to provide a "difficulty setting" comparable to those found in single player RPGs. Some players like to play a game on easy, others like to play a game on hard, others like to play a game on "nightmare".

 

These things still exist today. For example, The Witcher 3 has a "Death March" setting, which is particularly challenging. For those people that this type of mode appeals to, it gives them more to do in the game.

 

Generally, in a theme park MMO, these higher levels of difficulty also provide better rewards, as a part of the gear grind.

 

I know, too few people are doing nightmare mode and it's not worthy the development cost.

[Slowpokeking]

I think the best way is to let the old ops stay at their original level. But at the same time there is "Heroic SM/HM version" of at least some of the old ops, which will set the level to 65, with the difficulty rebalanced to maybe 1-2 tiers. It also drops every special decor/mount as well.

[Khevar]

I know, too few people are doing nightmare mode and it's not worthy the development cost.

This is true. That's why there's no more development efforts in that direction.

 

But don't overlook my point about "NM difficulty is for people that find HM too easy"

 

If you were playing Dragon Age: Origins on "Nightmare" difficulty and found it too hard, would you request that they reduce the difficulty? Or would you instead go into the game settings, change it to "Hard" and play it that way?

Edited March 23, 2016 by Khevar

[IanArgent]

I think the best way is to let the old ops stay at their original level. But at the same time there is "Heroic SM/HM version" of at least some of the old ops, which will set the level to 65, with the difficulty rebalanced to maybe 1-2 tiers. It also drops every special decor/mount as well.

 

I just realized the flaw in this - you're actually invulnerable to anything more than 6 or 7 levels beneath you (no longer easily demonstrated since level sync).

 

Anyway, if you want to short-team an Op, why not go to Story Mode?

[Slowpokeking]

I just realized the flaw in this - you're actually invulnerable to anything more than 6 or 7 levels beneath you (no longer easily demonstrated since level sync).

 

Anyway, if you want to short-team an Op, why not go to Story Mode?

 

Yeah so what? Those ops at their original level won't drop good gears.

 

I'm too lazy even for SM now, I only do last boss run now.

[Slowpokeking]

This is true. That's why there's no more development efforts in that direction.

 

But don't overlook my point about "NM difficulty is for people that find HM too easy"

 

If you were playing Dragon Age: Origins on "Nightmare" difficulty and found it too hard, would you request that they reduce the difficulty? Or would you instead go into the game settings, change it to "Hard" and play it that way?

 

Of course not during the release, but when NIM ops' targeted group, the elite guild had either moved on or got bored, I would prefer it gets toned down so more people will run it after it had served its purpose. I wouldn't mind if there is an option for you to run it at 65.

Edited March 23, 2016 by Slowpokeking

[Khevar]

Of course not during the release, but when NIM ops' targeted group, the elite guild had either moved on or got bored, I would prefer it gets toned down so more people will run it after it had served its purpose. I wouldn't mind if there is an option for you to run it at 65.

That's not what I asked. I asked about Dragon Age: Origins, a single player RPG, also by Bioware, that has difficulty settings.

 

Here's the question again:

 

If you were playing Dragon Age: Origins on "Nightmare" difficulty and found it too hard, would you request that they reduce the difficulty? Or would you instead go into the game settings, change it to "Hard" and play it that way?

[Slowpokeking]

That's not what I asked. I asked about Dragon Age: Origins, a single player RPG, also by Bioware, that has difficulty settings.

 

Here's the question again:

 

If you were playing Dragon Age: Origins on "Nightmare" difficulty and found it too hard, would you request that they reduce the difficulty? Or would you instead go into the game settings, change it to "Hard" and play it that way?

Doesn't single player game have modifier to get whatever you want?

 

It's a single play RPG so if I found it too hard, I can either use modifier or try my own. But in a MMO, I can't go by myself, I would have to find a harcore guild who are interested to do it and need to make schedule to meet with people and endure drama. There is also reset so it's even more difficult to get into these ops.

 

Overall in MMO, there are far much more restriction than a single player RPG and it's more difficult for a player to "jump and challenge". When a ops' era is gone, even the elite guild would have moved on rather than still focus on it, it would be even harder to find a group to do it. This is the huge difference between ""hardcore group content" and "hardcore single player achievement",

Edited March 23, 2016 by Slowpokeking

[Khevar]

Doesn't single player game have modifier to get whatever you want?

Ah, but the similarity is here.

 

If NM is too difficult, you can run HM. If HM is too difficult, you can run SM. If you're having trouble getting a full group together to run HM, you can underman SM.

 

The only thing different, other than the challenge itself, is the rewards.

Edited March 23, 2016 by Khevar

[Slowpokeking]

That's not what I asked. I asked about Dragon Age: Origins, a single player RPG, also by Bioware, that has difficulty settings.

 

Here's the question again:

 

If you were playing Dragon Age: Origins on "Nightmare" difficulty and found it too hard, would you request that they reduce the difficulty? Or would you instead go into the game settings, change it to "Hard" and play it that way?

Overall, even at its prime, there were too few people doing NIM due to its difficulty, this was why did Bioware decide to stop making them. Now, with the content being old, many raiders got bored and people could get top tier gear with ease, there are even less people running them now. Don't you agree it could be more useful if they are brought down for more people to enjoy?

[Slowpokeking]

Ah, but the similarity is here.

 

If NM is too difficult, you can run HM. If HM is too difficult, you can run SM. If you're having trouble getting a group together to run HM, you can underman SM.

 

The only thing different, other than the challenge itself, is the rewards.

 

But in single player game I can make all the decision, in MMO it's totally different. It makes a HUGE difference if you have to find a stable group of at least 8-10 people to keep the run going. With it being old, there are even less people willing to run them.

[Khevar]

Don't you agree it could be more useful if they are brought down for more people to enjoy?

Not really. The operative word in your question is "enjoy".

 

The enjoyable part about NM modes IS the difficulty itself. If it's not difficult, why should it exist at all? The cutscenes are the same. The environment is the same. The trash mobs are the same. The bosses are the same.

 

The only thing that is different is the HP of the mobs and bosses, the incoming damage from the mobs and bosses, and specific complex mechanics that are much more difficult to deal with..

 

If what you're looking for is "run an operation", why pick nightmare? You can experience absolutely everything (other than the difficulty) by running SM.

Edited March 23, 2016 by Khevar

[Slowpokeking]

Not really. The operative word in your question is "enjoy".

 

The enjoyable part about NM modes IS the difficulty itself. If it's not difficult, why should it exist at all? The cutscenes are the same. The environment is the same. The trash mobs are the same. The bosses are the same.

 

The only thing that is different is the HP of the mobs and bosses, the incoming damage from the mobs and bosses, and specific complex mechanics that are much more difficult to deal with..

 

If what you're looking for is "run an operation", why pick nightmare? You can experience absolutely everything (other than the difficulty) by running SM.

But the enjoyment was targeted at a small amount of the players, and now even a big part of raiders had left, very few people are doing this content now. Nothing is worse for a content than few people are doing it.

 

Tone it down would let people be able to run what they couldn't before, this is going to attract more people like 3.0 did. I remember some bosses are NIM only like Hateful Entity.

Edited March 23, 2016 by Slowpokeking

[Khevar]

But the enjoyment was targeted at a small amount of the players, and now even a big part of raiders had left, very few people are doing this content now. Nothing is worse for a content than few people are doing it.

I do understand this, it's why they're not making any more NM modes ever again.

 

But why run it at all? Why would anyone ever choose to run a NM operation if they didn't like difficult content?

 

Asked more clearly:

Why do YOU personally what to run a NM operation if not because of the challenge?

Edited March 23, 2016 by Khevar

[Slowpokeking]

I do understand this, it's why they're not making any more NM modes ever again.

 

But why run it at all? Why would anyone ever choose to run a NM operation if they didn't like difficult content?

 

Asked more clearly:

Why do YOU personally what to run a NM operation if not because of the challenge?

 

1) I would enjoy the different mech in a toned downed level which I could take of. I remember running NIM Styrak with pugs which half of them got no achievement during 3.0, it was awesome when we beat him after 5-6 wipes, the fight was fun. I know it would mostly wipe us if we don't have the level advantage. Even at toned down difficulty, it's still fun. Even EC NIM was fun to run with 3-4 people taking on the minefield.

 

2) I like to smash what I once couldn't reach, get what I once couldn't get. Many people would surely aim the Dread Master crest.

 

3) Things like Hateful Entity was entirely kept away from people.

[Khevar]

1) I would enjoy the different mech in a toned downed level which I could take of.

Is this not how one would describe HM or SM? A different mechanic in a toned down level?

I remember running NIM Styrak with pugs which half of them got no achievement during 3.0, it was awesome when we beat him after 5-6 wipes, the fight was fun.

Similarly, could you not run SM Styrak today? What would be less fun about SM Syrak at level, compared to NM Styrak 5 levels over?

Even EC NIM was fun to run with 3-4 people taking on the minefield.

I hate to be a broken record, but ... why not SM?

2) I like to smash what I once couldn't reach, get what I once couldn't get. Many people would surely aim the Dread Master crest.

This is the ONE thing you cannot get from SM. The special drops. Is that all this is about?

Edited March 23, 2016 by Khevar

[MuskyBoy]

To answer what the point of nightmare is. Look no further the the disaster that was Hardmare. The Rav/ToS ops were the worst in the games history because EAware thought the skill cap of the player base was divisible by 2 (SM and HM). What inevitably happened was the players who were able to kill the "hard" bosses (4/5 ToS and 3/5 Rav) weren't able to clear the "nightmare" bosses "MB, Cora, Revan". This left an entire middle band of players who could do SM blindfolded, unable to finish an operation they felt some level of satisfaction completing. The truth is if they ever make another operation again there should be 3 or even 4 tiers, this makes it as accessible to as many players as possible. Remember tuning a fight from HM to Nim requires far less work then creating a new operation from scratch. Most fights have additional damage output, higher boss hp, tighter dps checks and one or two additional mechanics but the framework is already there. Edited March 23, 2016 by MuskyBoy

[Slowpokeking]

Is this not how one would describe HM or SM? A different mechanic in a toned down level?

But it's still different.

 

Similarly, could you not run SM Styrak today? What would be less fun about SM Syrak at level, compared to NM Styrak 5 levels over?

Because it's different, you don't have to snare the little ghosts or in SM or pick the lightning ghosts asap in random direction. Even at toned downed level, it's different mechanics and different experience. Also you don't get the satisfaction by doing SM.

 

I hate to be a broken record, but ... why not SM?

Because there are different mechanics?

 

 

This is the ONE thing you cannot get from SM. The special drops. Is that all this is about?

I don't care about the mask, but I would love to run Hateful Entity at a toned downed level.

[Slowpokeking]

To answer what the point of nightmare is. Look no further the the disaster that was Hardmare. The Rav/ToS ops were the worst in the games history because EAware thought the skill cap of the player base was divisible by 2 (SM and HM). What inevitably happened was the players who were able to kill the "hard" bosses (4/5 ToS and 3/5 Rav) weren't able to clear the "nightmare" bosses "MB, Cora, Revan". This left an entire middle band of players who could do SM blindfolded, unable to finish an operation they felt some level of satisfaction completing. The truth is if they ever make another operation again there should be 3 or even 4 tiers, this makes it as accessible to as many players as possible. Remember tuning a fight from HM to Nim requires far less work then creating a new operation from scratch. Most fights have additional damage output, higher boss hp, tighter dps checks and one or two additional mechanics but the framework is already there.

 

It would be better if they work on the "achievement" system in case people want some NIM level challenge without have to design another tier.

[MuskyBoy]

No because if all the fights were the same then the only thing that changes in the damage output and dps requirements. Why don't they make nim EV or KP? Because the fights were same at all tiers the were just tuned differently. People who do Nim want the additional challenges of new mechanics with the tighter dps/heal checks.

[Slowpokeking]

No because if all the fights were the same then the only thing that changes in the damage output and dps requirements. Why don't they make nim EV or KP? Because the fights were same at all tiers the were just tuned differently. People who do Nim want the additional challenges of new mechanics with the tighter dps/heal checks.

 

I do mean additional challenges, like do it without some special buff, do it without getting hit by certain skills to get special reward.