Are ops/raids outdated?

[Thoronmir]

Speaking as a dedicated and earnest RPer/soloer, the situation seems clear:

 

Give us a solo mode, but deny us the drops. If our concern is experiencing the story (and I, for one, refuse to just watch it on Youtube), then the swag is irrelevant. If the gear is the goal, then make us run a proper OP.

 

Of course, having never run Nightmare Mode, I have no clue if the story is any different than Story Mode. If not, then I don't see the problem. We can solo Story Mode for the ... ya know ... story. We can run a group OP in Nightmare Mode for the swag.

 

I believe in making all story content available to soloers. I see no reason to give soloers the same drops that group OPs receive.

[NakodaTheJedi]

to be honest the whole game is outdated it could use a little make over

[Thoronmir]

to be honest the whole game is outdated it could use a little make over

Nah, she's in her prime. Just needs a few touch-ups ... and maybe a dye job ... and a tummy tuck ... and some collagen in those lips wouldn't hurt ... and there's some minor sagging that could be remedied ... and maybe pluck those eyebrows ... and, sure, who couldn't use a little nip/tuck around the face? ... and a manicure ....

 

Still, I'd hit that.

 

[Slowpokeking]

You say they left, but really have no proof. Not to mention you, yourself have said you dont do OPs because of the drama, so I am really curious where you get this notion that your statements are at all accurate, or why you feel the need to presume you speak for all casuals?

 

I see people calling out for NiM every night on fleet on JC, same with SM, and HM. So sorry if I take your personally biased claims with little more then a grain of salt.

 

LOL you are still denying this? WOW people are still denying that many raiders had left due to no new raid content. That's just amazing. Where? Even on Harbinger, most of the calls are for GF SM and KP/EV HM.

 

I did ops a lot, just don't have interest to do the same thing much in KOTFE, get it right.

[Slowpokeking]

It's worth noting that slowpoke's main priority here is to be able to run NiM mode over leveled ( thus not making it NIM ) to make it easier/godmod, presumably for the drops.

He has endeavoured to try disguise this a few times in the thread but if you go back over a lot of his posts this theme recurs ... it's not about making operations more casual friendly or what not it's about taking the hardest content in the game and down scaling it so he can get the drops from it.

 

If this were a pure topic about creating an additional tactical mode for people to experience the content ( but get stuff all in the way of rewards compared to what SM drop ) it might have been a more relevant discussion but seeing as the "NIM should be easy because it's old" point keeps rearing it's head ... this whole thread is moot and just an attempt at justifying one individuals greed.

So you switched to attack on person.

[Thoronmir]

So you switched to attack on person.

Which begs the question: Is he wrong? Like I said, I'm all for soloers getting access to the story. I'm against soloers getting the same rewards for the content. I'm curious if you agree with me.

[Eldren]

LOL you are still denying this? WOW people are still denying that many raiders had left due to no new raid content. That's just amazing. Where? Even on Harbinger, most of the calls are for GF SM and KP/EV HM.

 

I did ops a lot, just don't have interest to do the same thing much in KOTFE, get it right.

 

Creating any new content takes time, and whether people believe otherwise or not, development resources are limited.

 

BioWare is tracking EVERYTHING we do in the game client (just like any other company running an MMO). They have meetings whose whole purpose is to analyze metrics from that input, whether large-scale trends or granular per-player behaviors.

 

With limited development resources, it's just solid business to put those resources where they can do the most good, i.e., where the most players are going to benefit. Which subsection of those players get that content is decided by their analytics showing what most of their active players are doing.

 

If the bulk of the player base were involved in endgame raids, that's where the dev focus would be. Story content would take a hit in focus.

 

But this is a BioWare game. When SWTOR launched, one of the selling points was the creation of "story" as one of the pillars of the game, something they considered lacking from the MMOs that came before. BioWare's games are famous for involved story. Knights of the Fallen Empire's tagline is "Continuous Storyline. Choices that matter.". This is a story-focused expansion, because that's what BioWare's analytics are telling them the players want.

 

Development takes time. New Flashpoints & Ops are likely in the offing. BioWare likely isn't saying anything because there isn't anything to say yet. KOTFE isn't done yet. That's their development focus right now.

 

Raiders, by their nature, can be a tough group to satisfy. They want content they can work a long time to master, but not that's around so long that there aren't new challenges. That's been the challenge WoW has faced for years now. No one wanted a repeat of the Deathwing fight being the only content for over a year, until that's what we got again with Siege of Orgrimmar.

 

This game has endgame raiding, but the focus is story. The rest is going to have to come when they can get around to it.

[Max_Killjoy]

So you switched to attack on person.

 

Several of us happen to have reached the same conclusion he did, independently of one another.

 

if everyone reading your deluge of posts sees them adding up to "I want older content to be easy so I can benefit from it by getting good gear easy", and that's 100% honestly not what you're going for, then perhaps you need to reconsider your delivery.

[Slowpokeking]

Several of us happen to have reached the same conclusion he did, independently of one another.

 

if everyone reading your deluge of posts sees them adding up to "I want older content to be easy so I can benefit from it by getting good gear easy", and that's 100% honestly not what you're going for, then perhaps you need to reconsider your delivery.

Did you even play the game? The current system is pretty much "give out good gears for free". You can get 224 gear from EV HM, the earliest and easiest HM ops, which didn't happen in 2.0 and 3.0 at all.

[Max_Killjoy]

Did you even play the game?

 

No, I just pay for the sub so I can log in here and troll you.

[IanArgent]

Did you even play the game? The current system is pretty much "give out good gears for free". You can get 224 gear from EV HM, the earliest and easiest HM ops, which didn't happen in 2.0 and 3.0 at all.

 

So, do you want the gear, or not?

[Thoronmir]

So, do you want the gear, or not?

It's not about the gear. It's about the children. Who's going to speak out for the children!? If you want to distract the public with questions about gear, fine. But he's standing fast to his principles in support of the children. The children need an advocate, and he is it. So, go wallow in the mud with your gear. He's here to safeguard the children.

 

Sorry, practicing my "evade and divert" tactics for the fall election.

 

[Slowpokeking]

Creating any new content takes time, and whether people believe otherwise or not, development resources are limited.

 

No new content=dead game, simple as that.

 

BioWare is tracking EVERYTHING we do in the game client (just like any other company running an MMO). They have meetings whose whole purpose is to analyze metrics from that input, whether large-scale trends or granular per-player behaviors.

 

Yeah

 

With limited development resources, it's just solid business to put those resources where they can do the most good, i.e., where the most players are going to benefit. Which subsection of those players get that content is decided by their analytics showing what most of their active players are doing.

 

With limited resources and no drop on raid, raiders left, simple as that.

 

If the bulk of the player base were involved in endgame raids, that's where the dev focus would be. Story content would take a hit in focus.

 

Yes, so even you admit there was a very small amount.

 

But this is a BioWare game. When SWTOR launched, one of the selling points was the creation of "story" as one of the pillars of the game, something they considered lacking from the MMOs that came before. BioWare's games are famous for involved story. Knights of the Fallen Empire's tagline is "Continuous Storyline. Choices that matter.". This is a story-focused expansion, because that's what BioWare's analytics are telling them the players want.

Who said they don't like the story here?

 

Development takes time. New Flashpoints & Ops are likely in the offing. BioWare likely isn't saying anything because there isn't anything to say yet. KOTFE isn't done yet. That's their development focus right now.

But it has been a while and it would damage their game.

 

 

Raiders, by their nature, can be a tough group to satisfy. They want content they can work a long time to master, but not that's around so long that there aren't new challenges. That's been the challenge WoW has faced for years now. No one wanted a repeat of the Deathwing fight being the only content for over a year, until that's what we got again with Siege of Orgrimmar.

 

I know, but right now the only way is to offer new content for MMORPG.

 

This game has endgame raiding, but the focus is story. The rest is going to have to come when they can get around to it.

Yes, so why did they rescale it and left people no choice? Right now the system is even easier for casual to get top tier gear.

[Slowpokeking]

So, do you want the gear, or not?

 

I don't think the top tier gear should be given out so freely and some collections should still be so hard. It's just not a healthy circle.

[IanArgent]

I don't think the top tier gear should be given out so freely and some collections should still be so hard. It's just not a healthy circle.

 

So why complain tha tthe Ops were all brought up to the same (nominal) difficulty level, instead of complaining that you can get teh "best" tier of gear by running HM Ops? Plenty of threads complaining about that.

[Khevar]

So, do you want the gear, or not?

I don't think the top tier gear should be given out so freely and some collections should still be so hard. It's just not a healthy circle.

@Slowpokeking, you have a poor habit of not actually answering directly-worded questions.

 

It may help your position in this thread to actually endeavor to do so. It appears that you are "dodging the question".

[Slowpokeking]

So why complain tha tthe Ops were all brought up to the same (nominal) difficulty level, instead of complaining that you can get teh "best" tier of gear by running HM Ops? Plenty of threads complaining about that.

 

I just think the current system does not work at all. Even without new ops, there are little reasons to do the other HM and NIMs compare to the difficulty and drops. If you let EV/KP HM only drops 216-220, that might deal a blow to the casual players who wanted to run ops. They might just simply run and FPs/farm dailies and give up on EV/KP.

 

It would have worked perfectly if there are some top tier new ops, plus the level 60 ToS/Rav and level 55 TFB/SNV/DF/DP.

[Slowpokeking]

@Slowpokeking, you have a poor habit of not actually answering directly-worded questions.

 

It may help your position in this thread to actually endeavor to do so. It appears that you are "dodging the question".

 

Basically because it's a bit complex to make a good ops system right now since there were no new ops and raiders had left.

 

Let me think of it and give out a system I like.

Edited March 22, 2016 by Slowpokeking

[IanArgent]

I just think the current system does not work at all. Even without new ops, there are little reasons to do the other HM and NIMs compare to the difficulty and drops. If you let EV/KP HM only drops 216-220, that might deal a blow to the casual players who wanted to run ops. They might just simply run and FPs/farm dailies and give up on EV/KP.

 

It would have worked perfectly if there are some top tier new ops, plus the level 60 ToS/Rav and level 55 TFB/SNV/DF/DP.

 

Ops above Story Mode are part of the gear treadmill - as you pointed out earlier, if you're not doing them for gear, then why aren't you doing Story Mode? They should all reward the same level of gear for the same difficulty, at the same difficulty rating (Hard Mode or Nightmare Mode).

 

IF EV and KP aren't hard enough at the appropriate level, maybe they should look at retuning those ops up to match the general diffficulty.

[Khevar]

IF EV and KP aren't hard enough at the appropriate level, maybe they should look at retuning those ops up to match the general diffficulty.

I personally would have been happy with a return to the pre 2.0 concept of "Tier 1 and Tier 2" endgame.

 

EV/KP were in tier 1

EC/TfB were in tier 2 and had better rewards

 

All 4 ops were at max level (just like today's content).

[Slowpokeking]

Ops above Story Mode are part of the gear treadmill - as you pointed out earlier, if you're not doing them for gear, then why aren't you doing Story Mode? They should all reward the same level of gear for the same difficulty, at the same difficulty rating (Hard Mode or Nightmare Mode).

 

IF EV and KP aren't hard enough at the appropriate level, maybe they should look at retuning those ops up to match the general diffficulty.

 

So letting EV/KP drop the top tier gear is not making it well. But if you make them too hard people are going to stay away. Also what's the point for NIM anyway in this system?

 

Give me some time to figure how should it work.

[Slowpokeking]

I personally would have been happy with a return to the pre 2.0 concept of "Tier 1 and Tier 2" endgame.

 

EV/KP were in tier 1

EC/TfB were in tier 2 and had better rewards

 

All 4 ops were at max level (just like today's content).

 

SnV could be on the level of T2 as well.

How about DF, DP Rav and ToS?

[Slowpokeking]

How about let these ops stay at their level but can be brought up by Priority?

[Eldren]

No new content=dead game, simple as that.

We're getting new content. It just doesn't appear it's new content that you want. That's fine. Not everything is for everyone. New PvP content would be wasted on me, for example.

 

With limited resources and no drop on raid, raiders left, simple as that.

If "raiders left", they left. There still seem to be enough players engaging in raids from what I've noticed. Maybe it's a problem with your realm? Or maybe we're talking about two different things. I already mentioned that if there were more players asking for/involved with raiding to begin with instead of those clamoring for more story-based content, that's where BioWare would be putting their efforts, because it would keep players around, both to subscribe and to spend money in the Cartel Market. That the content they're putting out focuses more on story than on raids should tell you something, not about BioWare's concern for the game and its health, but about where the players are showing through their play metrics where they want to spend their time in the game.

 

Yes, so even you admit there was a very small amount.

Was that in question? I don't recall challenging the amount of raid content that exists or existed in the past.

 

Who said they don't like the story here?

No one said "they" don't like story (and who do you mean by "they"?). But the fact that our new content is based on story instead of providing a new set of endgame raids should tell you that with limited resources, more of those resources are being put on story-based content than endgame raiding because that's where BioWare's metrics are showing the players want to be.

 

But it has been a while and it would damage their game.

The game seems to be doing about as well as a F2P game can be. WildStar would kill for the numbers this game is pulling in.

 

I know, but right now the only way is to offer new content for MMORPG.

We're getting new content, on a monthly basis.

 

Yes, so why did they rescale it and left people no choice? Right now the system is even easier for casual to get top tier gear.

Why do you care how other players get their gear?

 

What is it you want here? Do you want to be able to go into older content with 1 or 2 people and just clear it the way the unscaled older content in WoW acts? Or do you want things to be very hard so people have to form a full raid to get their gear?

 

I'm not sure you know what you're asking for or arguing about at this point.

[Khevar]

SnV could be on the level of T2 as well.

How about DF, DP Rav and ToS?

I haven't run them under 4.0, so I'm not sure how they would be divided. It's a moot point anyway, BW removed "Tier" classifications of endgame content 3 years ago and hasn't been interested in bringing it back.

Also what's the point for NIM anyway in this system?

One thing you have to realize is that the devs have expressly stated they're never doing NM again.

 

http://dulfy.net/2015/08/06/swtor-gamescom-cantina-tour-qa/

Nightmare operations will NEVER exist anymore. Only story and hard, forever. (Note: this refers to ToS/Ravagers and any upcoming new operations after the release of KotFE)

 

So it's a bit hard to answer "what's the point for NM" as regards the current system.

 

But historically, one purpose of NM modes was to provide a "difficulty setting" comparable to those found in single player RPGs. Some players like to play a game on easy, others like to play a game on hard, others like to play a game on "nightmare".

 

These things still exist today. For example, The Witcher 3 has a "Death March" setting, which is particularly challenging. For those people that this type of mode appeals to, it gives them more to do in the game.

 

Generally, in a theme park MMO, these higher levels of difficulty also provide better rewards, as a part of the gear grind.

Edited March 22, 2016 by Khevar