Are ops/raids outdated?

[Crossward]

you need to bring up old ones. I don't even care about the gears because there is no use to me. I can do the stories perfectly fine without them.

 

Is this really desirable? If development resources require that there not be any new operations, it sucks but I get it. But at least by bringing up old content we have *something*. The Dread Operations are, at their core, a lot of fun. Same with Ravagers. Even though it isn't as good as getting new ops, at least we have something to do.

 

Torn between "zombie ops" for a year and no at-level ops for a year, give me the zombies!

[Knockerz]

Why should I give up the fun that once belong to me and should belong to me?

 

No, I want old ops to rest like they should be, challenge should stay with the new content. No new content doesn't mean you need to bring up old ones. I don't even care about the gears because there is no use to me. I can do the stories perfectly fine without them.

 

Because it cost money to make new ops and if not enough people subscribe like in the case of wildstar the game will lose money and be close or on maintenance. Do I need to remind the developers that Carbine fired about 40 percent of their staff a few days ago due to the wildstar's inability to turn a profit. Wilstar fired all of their pvp,dungeon, and raid developers, except one pve developer. There will be more people let go in the months to come according to Carbine.

 

Every developers from WoW, SWTOR, Wildstar, and others at some point has hinted or outright said that raid content is very expensive to maintain and that the number of players that participate in them is low. Challenging content is even worst as a miniscule amount of players participate in the most difficult content.

Edited March 17, 2016 by Knockerz

[Slowpokeking]

Is this really desirable? If development resources require that there not be any new operations, it sucks but I get it. But at least by bringing up old content we have *something*. The Dread Operations are, at their core, a lot of fun. Same with Ravagers. Even though it isn't as good as getting new ops, at least we have something to do.

 

Torn between "zombie ops" for a year and no at-level ops for a year, give me the zombies!

 

Even the coolest ops would be boring after so many years or still unreachable after so many years. If I was mainly a raid I would have go to play some MMO with new content keep coming out.

 

Also didn't you see? There are huge difficulty gaps between these ops and the gears don't help much, even at 3.0, it was hard to find a NIM DF/DP group which will accept you without NIM achievement, even if there is only Brontes left. Now with the level rescaled, there is no pug groups doing them anymore.

[Slowpokeking]

Because it cost money to make new ops and if not enough people subscribe like in the case of wildstar the game will lose money and be close or on maintenance. Do I need to remind the developers that Carbine fired about 40 percent of their staff a few days ago due to the wildstar's inability to turn a profit. Wilstar fired all of their pvp,dungeon, and raid developers, except one pve developer. There will be more people let go in the months to come according to Carbine.

 

Every developers from WoW, SWTOR, Wildstar, and others at some point has hinted or outright said that raid content is very expensive to maintain and that the number of players that participate in them is low. Challenging content is even worst as a miniscule amount of players participate in the most difficult content.

 

No, I understand it, but rescale old ops is also dumb and not gonna help it.

Edited March 17, 2016 by Slowpokeking

[Slowpokeking]

Is this really desirable? If development resources require that there not be any new operations, it sucks but I get it. But at least by bringing up old content we have *something*. The Dread Operations are, at their core, a lot of fun. Same with Ravagers. Even though it isn't as good as getting new ops, at least we have something to do.

 

Torn between "zombie ops" for a year and no at-level ops for a year, give me the zombies!

 

It might be a bit off-topic but I think I found part of the problem.

 

There is too much difficulty gaps between the ops. Groups that can easily clean off SM would die many times in the first boss of HM, and the gap between HM and NIM DF/DP is even worse, especially the final boss. Also it doesn't make the content easier with higher tier gears since there is no higher tier in KOTFE. Even in the 3.0, full 198 gears don't make these ops much easier. Most of the people still stay away from them unless you have achievement.

Edited March 17, 2016 by Slowpokeking

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Of course, because they are VERY OLD content, their era as a challenging content is long over. Why shouldn't people be able to smash it through?

 

If you want such challenging ops, ask Bioware to release new ops. Rescale 3-4 years old ops to keep the "challenge" is no different than animating dead into zombie.

 

They aren't releasing new ops though thus the challenging content is the existing ops. People can smash through it, they just need to get better to be able to do so.

 

Why should I give up the fun that once belong to me and should belong to me?

 

Because you find it boring and old by your own admission?

 

challenge should stay with the new content.

 

There is no challenge in new content.

 

It once was and should have been, but not anymore after 3-4 years and 2-3 xpcs, understand that. it would be pathetic if a MMO is trying to rely on such old content to keep the challenge.

 

So it's not challenging now? Because I seemed to get the impression you weren't able to do the HM/NIM content and wanted a free ride to that contents rewards.

If it's not challenging then you have no problem and don't need a tactical mode.

 

If you want challenge, why didn't you ask for new content? Why keep "challenge" on things that have been beaten for so many times?

 

Why assume I haven't asked for new content? I would love new content and still keep this content at it's challenge level, the more challenging content the merrier.

 

If they are not rescaled it's fine.

 

Well for them to be dropped in level now would be to rescale them so yes, let's not rescale them.

 

The 2.0 isn't much better, few people were able to do many of the NIM modes, even HM is kept away from many PFF guilds.

 

They are NIM/HM ... they aren't there for everyone to do, they are there for those that relish the challenge to do as they still are now.

 

Why would I want these gears if they are no use to me? There is no new ops to challenge. The story is easy to do with the 190 gears.

 

Exactly so if you don't want gear and find the ops boring there is no need to down grade them to suit you ... you have absolutely no reason to run them at all by your own admission. You find them boring and old and making them easier makes them more boring and still old. You don't want gear ... no reason at all for you to justify tactical operations.

 

Bolster.

 

Sets your stats based on your role to a level that you can accomplish the operation ( for SM ). This is for all 50-65 level players doing the operation.

[Slowpokeking]

They aren't releasing new ops though thus the challenging content is the existing ops. People can smash through it, they just need to get better to be able to do so.

Which is bad and not going to impress people. No pugs can't. And no matter how good you are, you can't control others.

 

 

 

Because you find it boring and old by your own admission?

Because so many people found it boring and quit already. Story is the only thing that could grab people now because only story(plus some WZ) is new.

 

 

There is no challenge in new content.

 

Then you need to press for new content. How is it challenging to do something that I've beaten so many times or something I couldn't even get into?

 

So it's not challenging now? Because I seemed to get the impression you weren't able to do the HM/NIM content and wanted a free ride to that contents rewards.

If it's not challenging then you have no problem and don't need a tactical mode.

 

I found them challenging years ago, I just don't find it's challenging anymore but the effort had to be spent is still too much, or there is purpose to do these VERY OLD content with such effort. It's a waste of time to spend such effort on such old content.

 

 

 

Why assume I haven't asked for new content? I would love new content and still keep this content at it's challenge level, the more challenging content the merrier.

Why? It's not a MMO's healthy life cycle at all. Contents don't stay all challenging, unless they provide the same gear, then it would be something like now, people are only doing EV/KP HM, or totally abandon the "still challenging content with bad reward". This, is why MMO content has to move on.

 

 

Well for them to be dropped in level now would be to rescale them so yes, let's not rescale them.

Why shouldn't they be dropped in level? It's a new xpc and the content on the level should be new stuff, not the old ones.

 

 

They are NIM/HM ... they aren't there for everyone to do, they are there for those that relish the challenge to do as they still are now.

They once are, but shouldn't be anymore because of their era is long gone.

 

 

Exactly so if you don't want gear and find the ops boring there is no need to down grade them to suit you ... you have absolutely no reason to run them at all by your own admission. You find them boring and old and making them easier makes them more boring and still old. You don't want gear ... no reason at all for you to justify tactical operations.

So I left the game or just do the story and buy some decor because there is no stuff coming out and there is no fun to smash old content. This is why people who are not interested in the story, are leaving the game now. There are tons of game with new challenge keep coming out, what's the reason to stay at SWTOR?

 

I have reason, smashing old content is fun to me.

 

 

Sets your stats based on your role to a level that you can accomplish the operation ( for SM ). This is for all 50-65 level players doing the operation.

 

Are you kidding? You can't tank without having a tank class.

 

Seriously, why can't you understand something?

 

Sure, hard content is necessary, but one challenging content doesn't always stand in that way. There is a lifespan for content, from super elite challenge to pug's fun and new things keep come out. Otherwise the game base would quickly start to wither since all these content or 2/3 of them can only be done by a small amount of people. This is what WOW once had been through in vanilla and they gave it up since BC. EV/KP/EC/TFB/DF/DP had their prime and TFB/DF/DP's was already longer than a content should be. If a game have to rely on such old content to keep the "pride" and challenge, then it's quite pathetic.

Edited March 17, 2016 by Slowpokeking

[Dinoviking]

I don't necessarily think that ops and raids are outdated so much as I think they need to be updated. Raids (or ops, or dungeons, or whatever other games may call them), have been handled and presented much the same way for almost 20 years now. Ever since "raid zones" and "raid bosses" in EQ1, it really hasn't changed much over the years. Sure the technology behind it has changed, and some of the style has changed. Currently, raids take from 5-10 people and run for 30 minutes up to just over 2 hours. In the early days of WoW, they took 40 people and could last all day. In EQ1, you simply went to where the raid boss was and waited for the spawn, then hoped that out of the hundreds of players there you would actually tag it enough to get credit for the kill and not have to wait for the next one. This could actually take days or even weeks of waiting to actually finally get the kill. By that standard, current raids are much better than they were in the past.

 

The problem is, as good as they are compared to the early days, the early days ended over a decade ago and the concept has become stagnant. The presentation has become stale. Some games have tried to change it up, but nothing ever seems to work. Some games remove the trinity. That has yet to ever actually work because all it does is create a free-for-all mess. Some games add a TON of extra mechanics to each boss fight in a raid. This has very limited success because of the sheer research needed to properly prepare for such things, which only seems to ensure that only the top 1% ever see that content, which is not very good business. A lot of FTP games put raids behind paywalls. Those games need to go fornicate themselves. Some games have tried reducing the difficulty so more people can see them, which removes the challenge and makes them boring. A lot of games have tried a lot of stuff and none of it ever seems to work.

 

All that being said, sooner or later something has to work. If raids continue being what they are for too much longer, if the current industry standard for their presentation doesn't change for the better very soon, raids can and will become content that no one wants, needs, or ever does. If that happens, the industry as a whole is in trouble because raids are the primary end game content MMORPGs have been using to prop themselves up and maintain interest for YEARS. This is all they have to keep players playing. If raids become obsolete, and they do seem to be heading that way (although they aren't quite there yet), MMO developers don't have any other tricks right now to replace them with. Heavy story content helps, but too much can really slow a game down. PvP is a nice idea, but the balance is a nightmare and it only appeals to a relatively small subset of players. Dailies and weeklies are a poor substitute that get repetitive and grindy very quickly. There really is no good alternative right now, but I very much believe that someone needs to invent one before it's too late.

 

TL;DR No they aren't outdated yet, but they might be headed that way.

 

Just my 2 credits. Thought I'd share.

 

Have a nice day.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Which is bad and not going to impress people. No pugs can't. And no matter how good you are, you can't control others.

 

All the pugs I group with have no issues doing SM, maybe if you are having such issues the problem isn't with them buy with you?

 

Because so many people found it boring and quit already. Story is the only thing that could grab people now because only story(plus some WZ) is new.

 

Making it tactical doesn't change that. Still old an then it's more boring.

 

 

Then you need to press for new content. How is it challenging to do something that I've beaten so many times or something I couldn't even get into?

 

You've got all NIM/HM clears then at current content level? Doing it when it was 50 and you were 60 no probs ...

 

I found them challenging years ago, I just don't find it's challenging anymore but the effort had to be spent is still too much, or there is purpose to do these VERY OLD content with such effort. It's a waste of time to spend such effort on such old content.

 

You don't find it challenging now but want to make it even more easy? Right ...

 

Why? It's not a MMO's healthy life cycle at all. Contents don't stay all challenging, unless they provide the same gear, then it would be something like now, people are only doing EV/KP HM, or totally abandon the "still challenging content with bad reward". This, is why MMO content has to move on.

 

People aren't only doing EV/KP HM at all ... that's your imagination.

Focusing on solo story isn't part of a healthy MMO cycle as we know it either yet here we are.

 

 

Why shouldn't they be dropped in level? It's a new xpc and the content on the level should be new stuff, not the old ones.

 

This has been answered, because it would make the content even more boring and drive more players away than it would gain by making it easier. You've not yet given a decent, non-contradictory reason to drop it in level that would actually benefit the game as opposed to you personally who apparently has been there and done it all yet wants to drop the level so he can get the stuff he doesn't have.

 

They once are, but shouldn't be anymore because of their era is long gone.

 

But it's relevant for levels 50-65 - it's relevant now.

 

So I left the game or just do the story and buy some decor because there is no stuff coming out and there is no fun to smash old content. This is why people who are not interested in the story, are leaving the game now. There are tons of game with new challenge keep coming out, what's the reason to stay at SWTOR?

 

People leave for many reasons, ops not getting down leveled is not one of them ... at least not one I've heard yet.

 

I have reason, smashing old content is fun to me.

 

 

Are you kidding? You can't tank without having a tank class.

 

Seriously, why can't you understand something?

 

Refer back to the first time I mentioned this ... for classes that have a tank spec. Removes gear as being neccessary for SM.

 

 

Sure, hard content is necessary, but one challenging content doesn't always stand in that way. There is a lifespan for content, from super elite challenge to pug's fun and new things keep come out. Otherwise the game base would quickly start to wither since all these content or 2/3 of them can only be done by a small amount of people. This is what WOW once had been through in vanilla and they gave it up since BC. EV/KP/EC/TFB/DF/DP had their prime and TFB/DF/DP's was already longer than a content should be. If a game have to rely on such old content to keep the "pride" and challenge, then it's quite pathetic.

 

They did it your way, it didn't work so they made old operations relevant for a larger portion of people ... your idea failed ... face facts.

[IanArgent]

All that being said, sooner or later something has to work. If raids continue being what they are for too much longer, if the current industry standard for their presentation doesn't change for the better very soon, raids can and will become content that no one wants, needs, or ever does. If that happens, the industry as a whole is in trouble because raids are the primary end game content MMORPGs have been using to prop themselves up and maintain interest for YEARS. This is all they have to keep players playing. If raids become obsolete, and they do seem to be heading that way (although they aren't quite there yet), MMO developers don't have any other tricks right now to replace them with. Heavy story content helps, but too much can really slow a game down. PvP is a nice idea, but the balance is a nightmare and it only appeals to a relatively small subset of players. Dailies and weeklies are a poor substitute that get repetitive and grindy very quickly. There really is no good alternative right now, but I very much believe that someone needs to invent one before it's too late.

 

TL;DR No they aren't outdated yet, but they might be headed that way.

 

Just my 2 credits. Thought I'd share.

 

Have a nice day.

 

This is more or less my view - not that the ops in game are outdated (they are, for anyone who's been around those blocks - but new players ought to be coming in to whom they are new content. But that's another rant). But that the entire concept of "raids" is a holdover from an earlier epoch in evolution of MMORPG design. They require a time investment that players (as a whole, not necessarily any particular player) are no longer willing to give. Not the time to learn (that's easier than ever, with the internet), but the actual time to wait for a group to form up and then take the hour or two to run the op; for a chance at possibly-irrelevant rewards.

 

(Not to mention that you practically need voice chat for all but the simplest of ops, and that's not part of the client.)

[Slowpokeking]

All the pugs I group with have no issues doing SM, maybe if you are having such issues the problem isn't with them buy with you?

Yes, after the personal drama of waiting/dc, you can get it done..

 

 

 

Making it tactical doesn't change that. Still old an then it's more boring.

It makes the group easier and you can spend less time on drama

 

 

You've got all NIM/HM clears then at current content level? Doing it when it was 50 and you were 60 no probs ...

I've beaten most of them in the past other than DF/DP NIM, why should I continue on such old content? As for DF/DP there is no pug running them at all now, even if they do they ask for achievement.

 

You don't find it challenging now but want to make it even more easy? Right ...

Yes, because they shouldn't be challenging anymore. We need new content, new challenge, not doing the old thing over and over again, it's not challenging.

 

 

People aren't only doing EV/KP HM at all ... that's your imagination.

Focusing on solo story isn't part of a healthy MMO cycle as we know it either yet here we are.

Pugs are mostly doing them only.

No, so press for new ops rather than animate old ones!

 

 

This has been answered, because it would make the content even more boring and drive more players away than it would gain by making it easier. You've not yet given a decent, non-contradictory reason to drop it in level that would actually benefit the game as opposed to you personally who apparently has been there and done it all yet wants to drop the level so he can get the stuff he doesn't have.

Because keep the difficulty doesn't make it less boring. They belong to the past, they are supposed to be punchbag now. People get fun from beating these once-so-hard ops. It won't drive more players away because the current players are doing it for gear.

 

 

But it's relevant for levels 50-65 - it's relevant now.

No, they are still very old content, they shouldn't have been brought up at all.

 

People leave for many reasons, ops not getting down leveled is not one of them ... at least not one I've heard yet.

No new ops/content-people leave, simple. Bringing old ops up bores people badly.

 

 

Refer back to the first time I mentioned this ... for classes that have a tank spec. Removes gear as being neccessary for SM.

But only PW, SJ and SA got such spec and we don't get one always.

 

 

They did it your way, it didn't work so they made old operations relevant for a larger portion of people ... your idea failed ... face facts.

What? They didn't keep giving new content, even at 3.0 they toned down level 60s' dps to keep the level 55 ops' difficulty.

[Slowpokeking]

This is more or less my view - not that the ops in game are outdated (they are, for anyone who's been around those blocks - but new players ought to be coming in to whom they are new content. But that's another rant). But that the entire concept of "raids" is a holdover from an earlier epoch in evolution of MMORPG design. They require a time investment that players (as a whole, not necessarily any particular player) are no longer willing to give. Not the time to learn (that's easier than ever, with the internet), but the actual time to wait for a group to form up and then take the hour or two to run the op; for a chance at possibly-irrelevant rewards.

 

(Not to mention that you practically need voice chat for all but the simplest of ops, and that's not part of the client.)

 

The biggest problem of raid is that it require group work, thus a lot of drama and a tight guild is needed, but people are tired of scheduled raid, they want "rock out whenever I want".

 

The biggest problem of SWTOR's raid is the difficulty gap I think, especially the 2.0 ones.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Yes, after the personal drama of waiting/dc, you can get it done..

 

I don't have this drama ... if you do then maybe operations aren't the thing for you and you should go do something else.

 

It makes the group easier and you can spend less time on drama

 

Easier != better.

 

I've beaten most of them in the past other than DF/DP NIM, why should I continue on such old content? As for DF/DP there is no pug running them at all now, even if they do they ask for achievement.

 

Pugs should never really run HM content let alone NIM content ( expcetion of easier ones like EV/KP ) ... you almost sound like you want to change things solely so you can run the HM/NIM at a difficulty that isn't HM/NIM anymore.

 

Yes, because they shouldn't be challenging anymore. We need new content, new challenge, not doing the old thing over and over again, it's not challenging.

 

Then go ask for new content, not making the only challenging content in the game easier just because "it's old".

 

Pugs are mostly doing them only.

 

They're really not, got proof?

 

Because keep the difficulty doesn't make it less boring. They belong to the past, they are supposed to be punchbag now. People get fun from beating these once-so-hard ops. It won't drive more players away because the current players are doing it for gear.

 

No they're not supposed to be that. They're supposed to be challenging which is why Bioware made this change.

 

No, they are still very old content, they shouldn't have been brought up at all.

 

Yes, they should because they were old content for levels people skipped over so Bioware wanted to make the operations relevant again with relevant gear drops. If you drop the difficulty to tactical or worse drop the level then the gear drops back to being irrelevant gear again. If people are only running the content for gear and the gear becomes worse under your system then less people will run the content by your own argument.

 

No new ops/content-people leave, simple. Bringing old ops up bores people badly.

 

Bores you badly.

 

But only PW, SJ and SA got such spec and we don't get one always.

 

Pretty sure anyone with even a passing interest in tanking is going to have a class that can tank. Your tactical change still needs someone wanting to tank and if they didn't want to tank before they're not going to want to tank now.

 

What? They didn't keep giving new content, even at 3.0 they toned down level 60s' dps to keep the level 55 ops' difficulty.

 

3.0 had 2 new operations. Your idea of having operations at their original level has already been done, it failed thus making it tactical will no doubt equally fail just as bad as it drives players away from the game.

[Ansultares]

I pretty much quit playing MMO operations/raid content well before SWTOR.

 

Too much drama, too repetitive and boring for me. It was fun for a few years in WoW, but by the time I got to Rift.. I had taken a pass on Operations/raids. Maybe it was the WoW approach that burned me out, or maybe I just finally realized what a silly carrot dangling MMO methodology they were.

 

And I know I am not the only MMO veteran that has moved on from Ops/Raids either.

Pretty much this, though I can't claim to have ever been much of a dedicated raider.

 

Small group content (WoW 5mans, SWTOR 4mans, etc) does interest me. However, I haven't seen a decent small group dungeon since Blackrock Depths. Worse, when developers accidentally stumble upon success, they too often instantly nerf it out of existence.

 

Once such example as a ~15m sequence of spawns inserted into the Guild Wars 2 dungeon Sorrow's Embrace (explorable Path 1). A really poor mechanic, it featured waves of three elite trash mobs pathing through the dungeon at a rate of approximately once per minute. These waves spawned in addition to static trash spawns. The idea was surely to have put pressure on you to clear through the first boss quickly, but the effect was to force you to wipe repeatedly until the spawns stopped.

 

Smart groups would insert this dungeon path at an appropriate point in their run to take advantage of the one upside of this mechanic: a forced 15m break. You could AFK near the dungeon path's entrance, and allow the patrols to pass. All groups invariably need to take breaks, and groups could easily plan such a break around this forced 15m AFK period.

 

As an added upside, most players don't actually break for 15m at a clip, providing the perfect opportunity to socialize in-game. While I'm not advocating developers randomly drop such mechanics into dungeons, I relate this anecdote to highlight how wrong developers get it these days. Everything is streamlined, everything is straightforward (except when it's maddeningly not, often due to a bug), players are given a path and so expected to stay on it that developers don't even implement distractions off to the side (except when they do, and it's so obvious that it inherently becomes part of "the path").

 

And I'm not going to even get started on pulling, or proper CCing.

Edited March 17, 2016 by Ansultares

[Crossward]

They're really not (Only running KP/EV HM), got proof?.

 

I envy you. What server are you on? I'm on 5 nights a week during prime time and I haven't seen a HM PuG for anything other than EV/KP on the Jedi Covenant server. A guild group asked for a fill in on TfB once a few weeks ago.

 

Maybe I'm just on the wrong server? I'm not doubting you, its just that this definitely isn't my experience. Its always "group finder of the day" or "EV/KP HM" from my experience.

Edited March 17, 2016 by Crossward

[CrazyCT]

Not sure how "On Topic" this is, but stumbled across this article a couple of days ago on Forbes.com

[Ansultares]

Not sure how "On Topic" this is, but stumbled across this article a couple of days ago on Forbes.com

No need for MMOs to move in that direction; the already underway trend towards always-on DRM will support solo gamers just fine.

[CrazyCT]

No need for MMOs to move in that direction; the already underway trend towards always-on DRM will support solo gamers just fine.

 

I just correlated the last three statistics - 30% prefer a remake of a classic, 33% play MMO's, and just under 30% play for the story. Coincidence?

[MeNaCe-NZ]

I envy you. What server are you on? I'm on 5 nights a week during prime time and I haven't seen a HM PuG for anything other than EV/KP on the Jedi Covenant server. A guild group asked for a fill in on TfB once a few weeks ago.

 

Maybe I'm just on the wrong server? I'm not doubting you, its just that this definitely isn't my experience. Its always "group finder of the day" or "EV/KP HM" from my experience.

 

I meant operations in general. I think these is a language barrier issue with slowpoke so maybe I'm misinterpreting in some cases ( or maybe he's contradiciting himself often ).

 

If we're talking PURE HM pugs then yes EV/KP will be the only ones you really see offered up in chat ( few others but not regularly ) but then the topic at hand that I joined in at was about tactical operations so even if we had such a thing the HM/NIM content doesn't effectively move at all so it's rather moot in discussion about tactical operations.

 

I assumed, based on tactical operations, he was trying to imply the only real pugging you see now HM EV/KP which is simply not true as there is more calls for operations of the day and earlier in the week a nice abundance of SM ops as locks out are open than there is for those 2 ops with those mode

 

It's interesting to note when we talk about people wanting to do easier content so they can enjoy it that I almost never notice people advertising for EV/KP SM even though the HM run wouldn't lock them out of it ... people just don't seem interested in doing this faceroll type of content as much as they would the more challenging ( yet not super difficult ) SM ops.

 

If he is trying to refer to only the HM KP/EV as being the only HM's advertised ... what does that have to do with adding in tactical operations? That people don't like the challenge of HM and prefer SM? That's given considering SM is scaled at a pretty good place right now and I feel anyone willing to take the time to learn the ops can get through them relatively easy ( providing they also at least know their rotations ) ... tactical mode or scaling back down the ops isn't needed nor would it be beneficial to the game as I see it.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Not sure how "On Topic" this is, but stumbled across this article a couple of days ago on Forbes.com

 

Interesting article but incredibly small sample size and what constitutes a gamer anyway?

The dubious nature of the statistics to me was "half spent less than $100 a year on games" which tells me the sample was skewed and isn't what I would call gamers but people who have played "A game in the past 12 months" which I wouldn't be surprised was part of selection criteria for the survey.

 

Considering the value of the gaming market on a whole I find it hard to believe that "half of all gamers spend less than $100 a year" personally.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

I just correlated the last three statistics - 30% prefer a remake of a classic, 33% play MMO's, and just under 30% play for the story. Coincidence?

 

"For deciding what made a game good or bad, the “look and feel” of the game dominated with 65% of those surveyed responding that it was important, followed by game components (think: characters, weapons, Easter Eggs, etc.). According to the survey, the least important factor was rules, with just 18% saying that it was important. The gamers also said that gameplay matters more than the story in video games."

 

Lol sorry KoTFE and your absolutely **** gameplay, you lose.

[Slowpokeking]

I don't have this drama ... if you do then maybe operations aren't the thing for you and you should go do something else.

Doesn't mean others won't.

 

 

Easier != better.

Depend on what content, very old content should be easy.

 

 

 

Pugs should never really run HM content let alone NIM content ( expcetion of easier ones like EV/KP ) ... you almost sound like you want to change things solely so you can run the HM/NIM at a difficulty that isn't HM/NIM anymore.

Why? You are saying that pugs shouldn't run HM or NIM even after 3-4 years? That's reall big elitism.

 

I've done NIM SnV with pugs thanks.

 

Then go ask for new content, not making the only challenging content in the game easier just because "it's old".

 

It's old so it should be put into rest, it is how MMO content goes.

 

 

They're really not, got proof?

I'm on Harbinger and yes, 99% of the pugs only do these. Didn't you say that pugs should never try HM?

 

 

No they're not supposed to be that. They're supposed to be challenging which is why Bioware made this change.

No, they were supposed to be challenging during their era, not stay there forever as zombies.

 

Yes, they should because they were old content for levels people skipped over so Bioware wanted to make the operations relevant again with relevant gear drops. If you drop the difficulty to tactical or worse drop the level then the gear drops back to being irrelevant gear again. If people are only running the content for gear and the gear becomes worse under your system then less people will run the content by your own argument.

Why shouldn't people skip over? Their era is long gone, people should have the freedom to try them with easy pugs or skip them rather than still do these OLD OPS for gears. Of course people shouldn't run these ops for gears, they should run new ones and Bioware should give out new ones.

 

 

 

 

Pretty sure anyone with even a passing interest in tanking is going to have a class that can tank. Your tactical change still needs someone wanting to tank and if they didn't want to tank before they're not going to want to tank now.

No, that's not the case, try to group with pugs more. We are talking about pugs.

 

 

3.0 had 2 new operations. Your idea of having operations at their original level has already been done, it failed thus making it tactical will no doubt equally fail just as bad as it drives players away from the game.

 

And they still toned down level 60 characters and brought TFB into 55. The problem isn't that the old ops were stay at their level, the problem is that only 2 ops and 1 boss encounter was out through out the whole 3.0 cycle, still more pugs were trying NIMs at that time. Now? There is none.

Edited March 18, 2016 by Slowpokeking

[Slowpokeking]

It's starting to get ridiculous, someone is saying that new ops+ old ops on original level didn't work. That was what WOW had been doing for SO LONG and what SWTOR was planning to do.

[CarpeSangrea]

I pretty much quit playing MMO operations/raid content well before SWTOR.

 

Too much drama, too repetitive and boring for me. It was fun for a few years in WoW, but by the time I got to Rift.. I had taken a pass on Operations/raids. Maybe it was the WoW approach that burned me out, or maybe I just finally realized what a silly carrot dangling MMO methodology they were.

 

And I know I am not the only MMO veteran that has moved on from Ops/Raids either.

 

You definitely aren't. The last time I did MMO raiding with any real regularity was the beginning of WoW's Cataclysm expansion. I did a little bit here during the game's first year, but since then the only raiding I've done at all is a handful of LFR's in wow, which honestly really doesn't count as those feel more like random dungeons, just with more people

[Slowpokeking]

Not sure how "On Topic" this is, but stumbled across this article a couple of days ago on Forbes.com

 

No need for MMOs to move in that direction; the already underway trend towards always-on DRM will support solo gamers just fine.

 

 

I don't think these people want to simply not grouping, they just want to have the option to enjoy the content without grouping and avoid all the personal drama or had to come on during specific time.