Here some statistics

[Jazyra]

It's more than a little concerning about the amount of kills you had by gunships. From my observations, they need to consider nerfing the gunships, either by slowing their turn rate and/or lowering the shields and armor. This would balance out power that they yield. Gunships are one of the reasons that I do not play this as much as I would like to.

 

This is just my opinion though.

 

The sad thing is that, nothing will be done with GSF. Bioware has all but forgotten this portion of the game.

 

Lowering the turn rate or defences will not help in my opinion (especially the T2 gs), reducing a bit the damage and/or the shield piercing of slug plus reducing the energy burn of ion will be more appropriate to reduce the offensive efficiency of GS.

 

Gunships are getting easy kills against all but two of the ships listed - basically 5/7 of the ship-classes listed are Strikes or very similar to Strikes. (The Gunships both use dual lockons, which essentially makes them Strikes and the only difference between a Strike and the T3 Bomber is the Systems slot.)

If I had to take a guess, the deaths to Slugs would be lower, if there were less "Strikes" on that list.

 

I'm agree with this, gs death would be lower but still in top in think, i feel dying a lot by them even on my scouts. But unfortunatly i have not made specific stats for each ships. All the ships listed are more or less design/played to dogfight except the T1 scouts i use to hit & run.

 

The playstyle is a huge factor, second below the meta imo.

 

I agree with one of your statements, and disagree with the other! Bioware is not likely to spare manpower to rebalance GSF anytime soon, and in my opinion the game is balanced well between scouts, gs, and bombers. The problem comes when people don't know how to go about dealing with the challenges presented by the various ship classes.

 

I wrote a guide specifically to address the issue of what to do when flying against gunships, maybe it will help you:

Despon's Guide to Killing Gunships

- Despon

 

Rock paper scissors mind will not help balancing things.

Edited March 14, 2016 by Jazyra

[Ramalina]

Rock paper scissors mind will not help balancing things.

 

R-P-S balancing works just fine, and GSF has a "soft" version where gear choice just gives an advantage rather than guaranteeing a win. The problem is that within component types you get R-p-s balance that is then worsened by giving the R components to one set of ships and the p-s components to another set of ships. Nerf the Rs down to be Rs and buff the p-s up to be P-S and a lot of that goes away. It's not so much the general principle that's the problem in GSF, it's the very inconsistent application of the principle.

[caederon]

Rock paper scissors mind will not help balancing things.

Thanks for your dismissive and bullheaded anti-knowledge reply!

 

Have fun waiting for Bioware to fix your non-problem for you.

 

When people don't know the game, the enemy massing a single ship type (even strikes!) can become a seemingly insurmountable issue. A chance visit last night to Harbinger by some of the euro-server scout pilots demonstrated very effectively how a bunch of scouts can tear people up just fine. Well piloted scouts were indeed not overcome by magically overpowered gunships. Playing against the pubside scout teams on TRE will tell you the same thing. The teams I flew scout against last night who fielded lots of gunships similarly failed to win despite having a whole bunch of OP insta-win impossible to beat gunships on their side.

 

If you are losing to a bunch of massed ________ , your team needs to learn how to approach the situation. They also have to be relatively as good as the other side, or you'll lose. Relative team strength where one side has disproportionately lower numbers of experienced pilots will cause more losses than anything.

 

If you want to pick a problem to cry to deaf ears about, make it 'getting the player pool all in one place so people of equal skill levels have more of a chance to be matched against each other.' Or, 'fix strikes' which they actually intended to do before they thoroughly didn't do it.

 

Despon

[Krixarcs]

Big surprise you got killed by the easy weapons blc and slugs. TRE is a joke server. If u didn't even get killed once by ion railgun splash damage then u played noobs

[Jazyra]

R-P-S balancing works just fine, and GSF has a "soft" version where gear choice just gives an advantage rather than guaranteeing a win. The problem is that within component types you get R-p-s balance that is then worsened by giving the R components to one set of ships and the p-s components to another set of ships. Nerf the Rs down to be Rs and buff the p-s up to be P-S and a lot of that goes away. It's not so much the general principle that's the problem in GSF, it's the very inconsistent application of the principle.

 

I'm agreed but the scout global gs, gs global bombers, bombers global scouts, strikes global turrets discturb me.

 

Thanks for your dismissive and bullheaded anti-knowledge reply!

 

Have fun waiting for Bioware to fix your non-problem for you.

 

When people don't know the game, the enemy massing a single ship type (even strikes!) can become a seemingly insurmountable issue. A chance visit last night to Harbinger by some of the euro-server scout pilots demonstrated very effectively how a bunch of scouts can tear people up just fine. Well piloted scouts were indeed not overcome by magically overpowered gunships. Playing against the pubside scout teams on TRE will tell you the same thing. The teams I flew scout against last night who fielded lots of gunships similarly failed to win despite having a whole bunch of OP insta-win impossible to beat gunships on their side.

 

If you are losing to a bunch of massed ________ , your team needs to learn how to approach the situation. They also have to be relatively as good as the other side, or you'll lose. Relative team strength where one side has disproportionately lower numbers of experienced pilots will cause more losses than anything.

 

If you want to pick a problem to cry to deaf ears about, make it 'getting the player pool all in one place so people of equal skill levels have more of a chance to be matched against each other.' Or, 'fix strikes' which they actually intended to do before they thoroughly didn't do it.

 

Despon

 

I should have quote only this.

 

in my opinion the game is balanced well between scouts, gs, and bombers

 

First this is not true cause only one (maybe 2) of each categories can compete.

 

Second i don't feel a perfect balance between those ships.

 

And third as i say to ramalina, the one shot thing disturb me.

 

Big surprise you got killed by the easy weapons blc and slugs. TRE is a joke server. If u didn't even get killed once by ion railgun splash damage then u played noobs

 

http://www.free-iqtest.net/

Edited March 16, 2016 by Jazyra

[caederon]

First this is not true cause only one (maybe 2) of each categories can compete.

Ships that definitely 'can compete' when good pilots fly against good pilots:

T1 scout

T2 scout*

T1 gunship

T3 gunship

T1 bomber

T2 bomber

 

*Has 2-3 distinct competitive builds with very different playstyles and reasons to use them

 

Each of those ships has a different unique way it is used and different feel for how it plays (and different weaknesses) in a match.

 

Ships that are on the edge, still show up regularly, and can help your team:

T3 scout

T3 bomber

T3 strike fighter

 

Someone who is not great offensively can stay in a T3 scout all game and deploy heals. It's very valuable in the early game of any domination match, not just for Tensor Field, but also for quickly getting to a satellite and either taking it or holding it neutral just by flying evasively around it.

 

T3 bomber with Power Dive can be surprisingly survivable. Its Interdiction Drones are effective and annoying when defending satellites, particularly ones like Kuat Mesas B, Lost Shipyards C where the sightlines are obstructed and there is a lot of cover.

 

The T3 strike fighter is slow, but it can Power Dive so it has potential for mobility. It can take a lot of abuse. It is offensively deficient, but its Repair Probes are useful when defending satellites.

 

Despon

[Jazyra]

My turn...

 

Tier 1 ships

T1 GS

T2 Scouts

 

Cause they have both offensively and defensively the best component, they 2 shots anything and can survive easily. Except a very few isolated case both can compete in every situation.

 

Tier 2 ships

All the others

 

Cause they have more or less balanced components, diverse deficiency at various levels. Every can compete situationally but not against tier 1 ships anyway.

 

If you mainly fly tier 1 ships : Please stop argue, play something else than tier 1 ships against tier 1 ships "ace" for a week and then come back. It will give you a clear point of view but may cause intense frustration.

[aakrea]

My turn...

 

Tier 1 ships

T1 GS

T2 Scouts

 

Cause they have both offensively and defensively the best component, they 2 shots anything and can survive easily. Except a very few isolated case both can compete in every situation.

 

Tier 2 ships

All the others

 

Cause they have more or less balanced components, diverse deficiency at various levels. Every can compete situationally but not against tier 1 ships anyway.

 

If you mainly fly tier 1 ships : Please stop argue, play something else than tier 1 ships against tier 1 ships "ace" for a week and then come back. It will give you a clear point of view but may cause intense frustration.

 

I recently started trying gunships and I prefer the T3. The T1 is better at clearing out bombers er nests but the T3 works a lot better if I'm being pressured by scouts. I rarely group so I can't rely on any support and I like to have ID missles for the defensive benifit. I tried the T1 before but didn't really like it due to how easy it was for scouts to take me out. The T3 st still easily removed from combat by a good scout but I prefer the limited dogfighting ability to none.

 

I usually fly bombers and scouts, the T1 scout is almost as good at removing gunships as the T2 the biggest difference is quads are better than LC and I like BO rather than tt for gunship killing. Both the T1 and T2 bombers have their place in dom but the T2 (if well flown) can give repairs, reloads and maybe more importantly a way for the dogfighter a place to go if they are in trouble.

[caederon]

Cause they have both offensively and defensively the best component, they 2 shots anything and can survive easily. Except a very few isolated case both can compete in every situation.

They do not '2 shots anything.'

 

With Damage Overcharge, yes, any gunship will kill in one or two shots. Damage Overcharge only exists in TDM, so three out of the five maps are ones where you won't see that possibility. There is no gunship that will two-shot a bomber without DO. There is no gunship that will two-shot a fully healthy gunship without DO. Even strikes take more than two shots to kill. If you happen to land two shots on a scout, then there is a chance you can kill them, but landing two consecutive shots on a scout that knows what they are doing is difficult, thanks to Evasion.

 

Even by your own flawed rules, you'd have to include the T3 gunship in your 'tier 1,' as it has Burst Laser Cannon, which I assume is the 'best component' you're referring to. The fact that it also has Slug Railgun, Cluster Missiles, Power Dive or Retros, Distortion Field or Directionals... dismissing that ship is foolish. It has multiple viable builds and can be configured to be powerful in many situations.

 

Maybe you should try taking your Tier 1 ships up against Vexxial's T3 gs. See how well you fare.

 

Maybe you should try taking your Tier 1 ships up against Nemarus's T1 scout, or Paloga's, or Willie's if he was still active.

 

Excluding bombers entirely from your 'Tier 1' list is ridiculous on its face, as these are core components of successful teams (and easily abused against bad teams). Put teams of equal skill against each other on Denon. Give one team a Hyperspace Beacon, and let the other field only T2 scouts and T1 gs. Who do you think will win?

 

T2 scouts do not compete all that well in a bomber-heavy environment. Railgun Drone is a hard counter to scouts. It ignores Evasion, the scout's greatest strength. Seismic mines chew through scouts very quickly.

 

Have you ever even watched high level play between skilled teams? Try looking up Drakolich's YouTube channel and check out videos of the Super Serious night matches.

 

Pilot skill and relative team strength determine wins far more than ship selection.

 

It saddens to me to watch people persist in these ridiculous (and completely futile) crusades against this ship or that ship when it is tactics, skill, practice, and understanding the game situation that will determine how you perform.

 

Despon

[Jazyra]

I recently started trying gunships and I prefer the T3. The T1 is better at clearing out bombers er nests but the T3 works a lot better if I'm being pressured by scouts. I rarely group so I can't rely on any support and I like to have ID missles for the defensive benifit. I tried the T1 before but didn't really like it due to how easy it was for scouts to take me out. The T3 st still easily removed from combat by a good scout but I prefer the limited dogfighting ability to none.

 

I usually fly bombers and scouts, the T1 scout is almost as good at removing gunships as the T2 the biggest difference is quads are better than LC and I like BO rather than tt for gunship killing. Both the T1 and T2 bombers have their place in dom but the T2 (if well flown) can give repairs, reloads and maybe more importantly a way for the dogfighter a place to go if they are in trouble.

 

The T3 GS is in a very good shape, this is my favorite one, unfortunatly once you get ionned by a T1 GS your dead (like the T2 btw) even with distortion field the T1 got it too plus the passive evasion, and finally the most common build component on it are very similar to T2 scout but with half the speed, turn rate, evasion, blc damage (TT), fire rate, accuracy ect... making you in a very bad position against a competent t2 scout.

 

And you don't have the barrel roll wich is by far the best defensive choice a GS can wish.

 

I feel the biggest difference between the T1 & T2 scouts is (ofc blc) the t1 need a static target while the T2 can easily chase anything, making the T1 quasi irrelevant at dogfighting but an excellent noob GS cleaner.

Edited March 16, 2016 by Jazyra

[caederon]

And you don't have the barrel roll wich is by far the best defensive choice a GS can wish.

Power Dive operates at 0 energy cost and an extremely short cooldown. It is a far better defensive engine maneuver than BR since it still works even if you are ion'd down to zero power pool. BR is better for mobility issues, but for pure defense, having a missile break roughly every 5 seconds that doesn't require any energy to operate makes PD a lot better defensively.

 

I feel the biggest difference between the T1 & T2 scouts is (ofc blc) the t1 need a static target while the T2 can easily chase anything, making the T1 quasi irrelevant at dogfighting but an excellent noob GS cleaner.

Yes, the T1 is at a disadvantage most of the time in close dogfights. Close-quarters dogfighting is not the only or even primary activity one has to concern themselves with in Dom or TDM.

 

The T1 is good at intercepting bombers that aren't entrenched, and generally has longer reach than the T2 so it can pick away at bombers that are entrenched without getting in range of the mines. It also has several builds that give it effectively infinite engine pool. It can cover distance quickly, which is very valuable on a map like Denon. I have flown T1 scout on Denon quite a lot. The mobility can be very useful. Though it lacks BLC's quick turret-killing power, pods and LC do the job pretty quickly too, so if you have to solo-cap an undefended satellite, you can do that.

 

If people who fly the T1 scout stopped flying directly in a straight line through open space at enemy gunships, they might learn to appreciate its merits.

 

Siraka is another pilot that comes to mind who is very good with a T1 scout in TDM. He uses its mobility to get behind enemy lines and attack from the back, forcing part or all of the enemy team to face away from the bulk of his team.

 

Despon

[NeverEvar]

They do not '2 shots anything.'

 

With Damage Overcharge, yes, any gunship will kill in one or two shots. Damage Overcharge only exists in TDM, so three out of the five maps are ones where you won't see that possibility. There is no gunship that will two-shot a bomber without DO. There is no gunship that will two-shot a fully healthy gunship without DO. Even strikes take more than two shots to kill. If you happen to land two shots on a scout, then there is a chance you can kill them, but landing two consecutive shots on a scout that knows what they are doing is difficult, thanks to Evasion.

 

Despon

 

Despon, that is not entirely true. Full ion and full Slug is more the enough to "two shoot" a gunship(we are talking typical evasion build with 23% evasion(lightweight and disto) with +10% shield power pool defensive companion.

 

Shields in that build is 1870 shield per arc, with 1250 hull points. Full ion leaves it with 20 shields, so you need to inflict 1270 more dmg.

 

You can also argue, that you can two shoot with a slug, since its only 3120 points you have to beat and 2 full slugs are 3200.

 

Regards

 

Etrii

[Toraak]

The T3 GS is in a very good shape, this is my favorite one, unfortunatly once you get ionned by a T1 GS your dead (like the T2 btw) even with distortion field the T1 got it too plus the passive evasion, and finally the most common build component on it are very similar to T2 scout but with half the speed, turn rate, evasion, blc damage (TT), fire rate, accuracy ect... making you in a very bad position against a competent t2 scout.

 

And you don't have the barrel roll wich is by far the best defensive choice a GS can wish.

 

I feel the biggest difference between the T1 & T2 scouts is (ofc blc) the t1 need a static target while the T2 can easily chase anything, making the T1 quasi irrelevant at dogfighting but an excellent noob GS cleaner.

 

Wooh. time out. The T3 GS has something even better then Barrel roll. It has Power Dive which has a really short CD, and can be used for movement just like Barrel roll can, and most importantly it's free. It takes no engine power. So if you get hit by Ion and have 0 engine power you can still turn and Power Dive away before death.

[Greezt]

Wooh. time out. The T3 GS has something even better then Barrel roll. It has Power Dive which has a really short CD, and can be used for movement just like Barrel roll can, and most importantly it's free. It takes no engine power. So if you get hit by Ion and have 0 engine power you can still turn and Power Dive away before death.

 

Powerdive isn't necessarily better than barrel roll. It's useful for different reasons.

[Toraak]

Powerdive isn't necessarily better than barrel roll. It's useful for different reasons.

 

As long as you know how to use it, it is.

 

1) BR CD=30 seconds, PD CD=15

 

2) both can be used to get you to a point faster.

 

3) both are missile breaks.

 

4) BR takes a lot of engine power to use, PD is free.

 

5) the Only real Downfall to PD is in tight spaces. Lost shipyards C, and mesas Domination B can be tough to get PD to work without a suicide.

 

So unless your fighting under a sat in Domination matches, PD is a lot better then BR.

Edited March 18, 2016 by Toraak

[Greezt]

As long as you know how to use it, it is.

 

1) BR CD=30 seconds, PD CD=15

 

2) both can be used to get you to a point faster.

 

3) both are missile breaks.

 

4) BR takes a lot of engine power to use, PD is free.

 

5) the Only real Downfall to PD is in tight spaces. Lost shipyards C, and mesas Domination B can be tough to get PD to work without a suicide.

 

So unless your fighting under a sat in Domination matches, PD is a lot better then BR.

 

First of all, BR CD = 20, PD CD = 10.

 

While both can be used to get you to a point, BR gets you farther and faster. That's a big difference when you're racing to a DO, or running away from someone.

 

In fact, I'd say that PD's strengths are it's short CD and no engine usage, but that's it. It's very good for kiting, but if you need to move it's only second to BR. If you need to stay, it's second to retros.

 

BR is very good for moving. It's quick and straightforward, and it moves you far away. True, PD can move you too, but you need to set your ship up for that. With BR, it's point and click. It's downsides are it's engine cost, and it's longer CD.

 

That's why I see it as preference.

[Toraak]

I see your points, BR is easier to use for sure, can move you farther faster, but the CD difference for PD makes it better to me in my opinion to be honest (granted not everyone has to share that opinion). It's the 1 engine ability that takes a lot of practice to use correctly. (and yes your correct on the CD's of BR 20, PD 10. I just hovered over the abilities quickly to get the CD value of BR 30, and PD 15 sec CD's so It didn't take into account the reduction once trained. Edited March 18, 2016 by Toraak

[Jazyra]

Don't forget to mention the distortion field missile break the T3 can afford, another thing who make the power dive strength cooldown not so usefull.

[caederon]

Don't forget to mention the distortion field missile break the T3 can afford, another thing who make the power dive strength cooldown not so usefull.

The reason Power Dive is useful is that it costs 0 engine pool. If you are Ion Railgun drained, you can still use PD. If you have spent your whole engine pool maneuvering, you can still use PD. During that time when PD is activated you also get an Evasion boost. Between DF and PD you can stay alive quite a long time and generally make it not worthwhile for someone to keep chasing you.

 

You may not have been around back when Barrel Roll cost a whole lot less energy and had a much shorter cooldown. It was actually too good at that point. People used it very quickly traverse lots of distance at basically no cost, and it trivialized breaking missiles, even for strike fighters. Sadly, when they made BR more expensive and gave it a longer cooldown, it was a significant nerf to the mobility of strike fighters.

 

Nobody used Power Dive back then, because why would they? It's a nearly useless maneuver based purely on its directional movement. Then they made it ridiculously efficient in every way aside from the direction it blasts your ship... and now, in the hands of anyone skilled enough to aim it, it's borderline overpowered. A ship that is constantly yo-yo-ing around with PD has a nearly limitless source of extra Evasion and missile breaks.

 

Barrel Roll, though still good, has to be carefully managed so you have it ready when you need it -and- you have the engine pool to activate it.

 

Despon

[Dixarcs]

No offense Jazyra/Kywi but you sound like you are from another planet or maybe new zealand or something. You are so wrong about so many things, you need to listen to Despon. If you are playing those god awful ships than obviously you will think quarrel and flashfire OP. U need to fly a rampart with mines to beat the flashfire and u could use a blackbolt to beat the quarrel TBH. Edited March 19, 2016 by Dixarcs