A simple change for Pyrotech

[Isagoras]

I think it could be a good idea that the specialist pyrotech can move while using Flamethrower. Like the assassin tank with depredating volts.

[JarenWelen]

I used to agree with this idea, but Ruffian/Lethality is living proof that an on-the-move cone attack is just asking for trouble.

 

Personally I'd like to see the channel reduced to 1.5s, as currently Shield Tech's Firestorm does more damage over its duration than Pyro's buffed Flamethrower, and channels in half the time. This would reduce the gap somewhat and make it easier to get a full attack off.

[Aetideus]

I used to agree with this idea, but Ruffian/Lethality is living proof that an on-the-move cone attack is just asking for trouble.

 

Personally I'd like to see the channel reduced to 1.5s,

 

Yep

 

While both dps specs designs are totally f laud.

AP: No proc to increase dps. Yes, it is the only spec in the game that has no mechanics. multiple instant abilities of 4-30m range, 30% DR on area/stun dmg and +35% def chance every 45s...

Pyro: Complicated mechanics, range 4-12m, needs to channel (stand) for 3s in order to max dps, no area/stun protection (while standing in 10m ffs).

Where do you pick your designers from?

Edited March 12, 2016 by Aetideus

[JarenWelen]

AP: No proc to increase dps. Yes, it is the only spec in the game that has no mechanics. multiple instant abilities of 4-30m range, 30% DR on area/stun dmg and +35% def chance every 45s...

Pyro: Complicated mechanics, range 4-12m, needs to channel (stand) for 3s in order to max dps, no area/stun protection (while standing in 10m ffs).

Where do you pick your designers from?

 

You've hit the nail on the head here. There's a reason why the pre-3.0 Pyrotech and AP were the way they were: you had the glass cannon with minimal defenses (Pyrotech) and the more sustained and tankier damage dealer (AP). The necessity to stand and channel for 3 seconds in the middle of melee was what earned AP the 30% DR and Hydraulic Overrides (a tool that I remember we campaigned quite heavily to keep attached to the spec).

 

With 3.0 the glass cannon mechanics of Pyrotech became merged with the defenses of AP, becoming the AP we know today. The sustained damage of old-AP was left with glass cannon defenses, leaving it in a horrendous position.

 

That's not to say that post-3.0 AP should be nerfed defensively. Rather that post-3.0 Pyro needs a serious defensive buff. At present it is low/moderate damage, low survivability, making it (in my experience) the worst PvP spec in the game in the current meta. It certainly has the smallest defensive toolkit in the game, with Reactive Shield, Kolto Overload, and Shoulder Cannon (if utility) as its sole defensive options. What I continuously find strange is the cooldown reduction on Sonic Round without any defensive benefit to it. I wonder if the original design was for Pyro to receive the 30% defense chance on Sonic Round that AP ended up having.

 

It's a shame because the old AP cleave was a long-time favourite. Unfortunately I just can't justify using it anymore.

[Kaos_KidSWTOR]

Personally, I think that Firestorm/Ion Storm and Flaming Fist/Shockstrike should be reversed. Give Firestorm/Ion Storm to Pyro/Plasma and FF/ShS to Shieldtech/Shield Spec. Then, remove the proc for the 1.5s channel on FT/PC for Tanks, and replace it with some flavor of defensive buff that stacks up with FT/PC use. Give the 1.5s channel proc to Pyro/Plasma. Problems solved. All tanks have a 3s Channeled ability, and Pyro/Plasma's DPS issues are fixed.

[Aetideus]

You've hit the nail on the head here. There's a reason why the pre-3.0 Pyrotech and AP were the way they were: you had the glass cannon with minimal defenses (Pyrotech) and the more sustained and tankier damage dealer (AP). The necessity to stand and channel for 3 seconds in the middle of melee was what earned AP the 30% DR and Hydraulic Overrides (a tool that I remember we campaigned quite heavily to keep attached to the spec).

 

With 3.0 the glass cannon mechanics of Pyrotech became merged with the defenses of AP, becoming the AP we know today. The sustained damage of old-AP was left with glass cannon defenses, leaving it in a horrendous position.

 

That's not to say that post-3.0 AP should be nerfed defensively. Rather that post-3.0 Pyro needs a serious defensive buff. At present it is low/moderate damage, low survivability, making it (in my experience) the worst PvP spec in the game in the current meta. It certainly has the smallest defensive toolkit in the game, with Reactive Shield, Kolto Overload, and Shoulder Cannon (if utility) as its sole defensive options. What I continuously find strange is the cooldown reduction on Sonic Round without any defensive benefit to it. I wonder if the original design was for Pyro to receive the 30% defense chance on Sonic Round that AP ended up having.

 

It's a shame because the old AP cleave was a long-time favourite. Unfortunately I just can't justify using it anymore.

 

Clarifying, In Regs Pyro is still awesome. Much higher learning curve and the playstyle is not cleave. It is Dot spec staying at 10m. Automated Defenses and Automated Suit is the way to go.

But in Arenas against sorc healers cannot do much without cleave.

[Aetideus]

Personally, I think that Firestorm/Ion Storm and Flaming Fist/Shockstrike should be reversed. Give Firestorm/Ion Storm to Pyro/Plasma and FF/ShS to Shieldtech/Shield Spec. Then, remove the proc for the 1.5s channel on FT/PC for Tanks, and replace it with some flavor of defensive buff that stacks up with FT/PC use. Give the 1.5s channel proc to Pyro/Plasma. Problems solved. All tanks have a 3s Channeled ability, and Pyro/Plasma's DPS issues are fixed.

 

Just give Flame engine to Pyro and Insulated Mats to ST. Better balance.

[Kaos_KidSWTOR]

Just give Flame engine to Pyro and Insulated Mats to ST. Better balance.

 

Insulated Mats is a bit OP, Tanks should not get THAT much CD reduction on their AOE Taunt... I'd say swap Flame Suit and Flame Engine if anything. But IMHO, if you want Pyro to have good damage again, as they are just above middle line DPS, swap Firestorm AND Flame Engine, with Flaming Fist and Flame Suit. Just shuffle the other talents around and give Pyro Incend Missile first, then Firestorm, Immolate and Scorch. Also, make Scorch be spread by Firestorm, as you can as of 4.0 have more than 1 Scorch out on the field at a time.

[Aetideus]

Insulated Mats is a bit OP, Tanks should not get THAT much CD reduction on their AOE Taunt... I'd say swap Flame Suit and Flame Engine if anything. But IMHO, if you want Pyro to have good damage again, as they are just above middle line DPS, swap Firestorm AND Flame Engine, with Flaming Fist and Flame Suit. Just shuffle the other talents around and give Pyro Incend Missile first, then Firestorm, Immolate and Scorch. Also, make Scorch be spread by Firestorm, as you can as of 4.0 have more than 1 Scorch out on the field at a time.

 

Taunt reduction might be 5s and i/e DR is definitely needed for ST against a stack of sorcs and is only one switch in disciplines.

 

Dot dmg is pretty good for Pyro. There is no need for another dot spread. There is a lack of Cleave/ Burst in Arenas.

Having Flame Engine on Pyro is ~13 - 15k every 15s for 1.5s channel. *Possibly* that is enough pressure and Pyro is not a singe target spec.

 

If a number of changes are feasible on BWs roadmap, AP should be included

Edited March 17, 2016 by Aetideus

[khaos-theory]

Yeah I agree, an on-the-move channeled CoE move is asking for trouble.

 

Perhaps even just a CC immunity for the duration of flamethrower would make Pyro more PvP viable

 

Insulated Mats is a bit OP, Tanks should not get THAT much CD reduction on their AOE Taunt... I'd say swap Flame Suit and Flame Engine if anything. But IMHO, if you want Pyro to have good damage again, as they are just above middle line DPS, swap Firestorm AND Flame Engine, with Flaming Fist and Flame Suit. Just shuffle the other talents around and give Pyro Incend Missile first, then Firestorm, Immolate and Scorch. Also, make Scorch be spread by Firestorm, as you can as of 4.0 have more than 1 Scorch out on the field at a time.

 

Yeah, all those changes sound awesomely OP. A double dot spread would be nuts. Firestorm hits hard as fk for tanks in DPS gear. That spreading dots in ~1.5s with increased flamethrower stack damage... Pyro would be a dot-cleave God class.

 

I can see the devs endorsing maybe one of those changes.

[Kaos_KidSWTOR]

Yeah I agree, an on-the-move channeled CoE move is asking for trouble.

 

Perhaps even just a CC immunity for the duration of flamethrower would make Pyro more PvP viable

 

 

 

Yeah, all those changes sound awesomely OP. A double dot spread would be nuts. Firestorm hits hard as fk for tanks in DPS gear. That spreading dots in ~1.5s with increased flamethrower stack damage... Pyro would be a dot-cleave God class.

 

I can see the devs endorsing maybe one of those changes.

 

Firestorm actually hits for the same overall damage as a fully charged Flamethrower. I tested that with my DPS/Tank Hybrid Gear for PvP... And, Double DoT spread isn't that OP... Madness, Hatred, Annihilation, and Vengeance all have at LEAST 2 DoT's that spread (Vengeance has 3 low hitting DoTs to spread)

 

It wouldn't be as OP as you think actually. And, in all honesty you could change it to be Firestorm with all 3 DoT's spread (just tack on a 100% chance to activate CGC on all targets hit by Firestorm) The only reason Firestorm hits like a "truck" is because it's so short. You are dealing ~8k damage in a 1.5s channel. Whereas Flamethrower for Pyro is ~10k over 3s. Much lower damage in a short order.

[khaos-theory]

I knew they hit for roughly the same when buffed and compared. I meant firestorm has more base damage without building up buff stacks, and obviously flame engine helps.

 

Perhaps if they adjusted the damage and duration of the dots a double spread would be viable, scorch is kind of a unique dot atm

 

I would be hesitant to accept all the damage buffs mentioned because you can already get decent numbers with pyro. If you have at least semi-consistent, decent to good cleave you are looking at 3k+ matches. I usually have a lot more problems with defense than damage.

 

I would be all for the damage changes... it would make pyro like a glass napalm machine... but in most cases I would rather have defensive buffs. (A damage and defensive buff would be even more awesome)

[Kaos_KidSWTOR]

I knew they hit for roughly the same when buffed and compared. I meant firestorm has more base damage without building up buff stacks, and obviously flame engine helps.

 

Perhaps if they adjusted the damage and duration of the dots a double spread would be viable, scorch is kind of a unique dot atm

 

I would be hesitant to accept all the damage buffs mentioned because you can already get decent numbers with pyro. If you have at least semi-consistent, decent to good cleave you are looking at 3k+ matches. I usually have a lot more problems with defense than damage.

 

I would be all for the damage changes... it would make pyro like a glass napalm machine... but in most cases I would rather have defensive buffs. (A damage and defensive buff would be even more awesome)

 

I do agree we are quite glassy, but the other problem is, our PvE damage is BARELY above the midline. Look at the Ideal stats for all 24 classes thread and you will see what I mean.

 

PvP wise, we do need something to bolster our defenses. Maybe if AP got something akin to Arsenal's Decoy talent, and we got the old AP 35% Defense Chance boost. Or, if we got the ability to get like Flame Rebounder, a slightly more powerful version of Sonic Rebounder, but for Pyro only (OFC it activates with Threat Dump).

[Aetideus]

Firestorm actually hits for the same overall damage as a fully charged Flamethrower. I tested that with my DPS/Tank Hybrid Gear for PvP... And, Double DoT spread isn't that OP... Madness, Hatred, Annihilation, and Vengeance all have at LEAST 2 DoT's that spread (Vengeance has 3 low hitting DoTs to spread)

 

It wouldn't be as OP as you think actually. And, in all honesty you could change it to be Firestorm with all 3 DoT's spread (just tack on a 100% chance to activate CGC on all targets hit by Firestorm) The only reason Firestorm hits like a "truck" is because it's so short. You are dealing ~8k damage in a 1.5s channel. Whereas Flamethrower for Pyro is ~10k over 3s. Much lower damage in a short order.

 

Exactly. It is imminent that Flame Engine should be moved to the Pyro discipline.

Flame Engine on ST had meaning before Firestorm. Since Supercharged = Firestorm, Flame engine should be on Pyro BECAUSE Supercharged IS NERFED.

 

Regarding defenses. Pyro has the same chances as AP when focused in Arenas, if not more.

Automated defenses runs like crazy. If AP PT is focused without stuns but roots is squishy as hell.

Edited March 19, 2016 by Aetideus

[JarenWelen]

Regarding defenses. Pyro has the same chances as AP when focused in Arenas, if not more.

Automated defenses runs like crazy. If AP PT is focused without stuns but roots is squishy as hell.

 

I don't agree with this one - if we use an arena focus setting and say that the CD reduction on Adrenaline Rush equates to the CD reduction on Energy Shield, making their respective reductions effectively null, there remain distinct differences between the two.

 

AP:

30% Defense Chance for 6 seconds

30% AoE Damage Reduction

30% Damage Reduction while Stunned

Low damage absorb shield ~ every 10 seconds

+3% Melee/Ranged Defense hance

+3 Shoulder Cannon charges == 15% more health attainable with the Shield Cannon utility.

 

Pyro:

30% Damage Reduction for 8 seconds

+5% elemental/internal damage reduction

-15% DoT damage taken

+1 stun breaker with utility.

 

If we factor in a longer battle where CD reductions matter, we can add to the above:

 

AP:

25% Damage Reduction for 15 seconds roughly once per minute

 

Pyro:

30% Damage Reduction for 8 seconds roughly once per minute

 

Furthermore the nuances of Kolto Overload makes the Pyrotech a slightly more vulnerable target than the AP. It is extremely common for a Pyrotech to drop from >40% to <30% (this is afterall only a bit more than 7k health difference). This means that at the *start* of a Kolto Overload window you are still vulnerable to execute abilities until KO can take you above 30%.

 

It also means that the Pyrotech's damage reduction kicks in closer to the extreme limit (i.e. death). That means that the room for error on the part of your healer is lower - their inability to heal during your damage reduction at, say, 70% gives them more breathing space than their inability to heal through at <40%.

 

This lower trigger for KO has implications in regular Warzones too - players of many classes look for lower health targets to come in and finish off. Damage reduction kicking in at a lower health level makes the Pyrotech a greater target.

 

One might say that Pyro's stronger Kolto Overload gives it a distinct advantage vs AP when not being stunned, if the Automated Suit utility is taken. However if we compare the 30% DR in Kolto Overload, this is equaled by the 30% DR when stunned in AP. If the AP is not stunned this DR does not apply, but then he/she is not stunned! This enables the use of Sonic Round or Energy Shield - of course Pyro has these same options when not stunned. However yes, if these are on cooldown (and remember this is less likely on AP as on Pyro due to lower CDs), then AP will be squishier when not stunned.

 

All of this combined indicate that Pyro's defensive toolkit is inferior to AP's, and that in both regs and ranked the tradeoff of lower defensives is not in line with a higher damage output. The AP Powertech's ability to handle focus both through pre-emptive action (Sonic Round for a 30% Def Chance to everything - including stuns), and passive mitigation is superior.

 

It is of course absolutely true that, against a decent team or without a healer, both disciplines suffer against focus. But Pyro definitely needs some additional defenses alongside any DPS boost such as Firestorm.

Edited March 20, 2016 by JarenWelen

[Isagoras]

So to stay with a simple change, from what I read, maybe if pyrotech can trigger kolto overload when health is reduced to 50% for example, it would be a good thing.

[Aetideus]

I don't agree with this one - if we use an arena focus setting and say that the CD reduction on Adrenaline Rush equates to the CD reduction on Energy Shield, making their respective reductions effectively null, there remain distinct differences between the two.

 

AP:

30% Defense Chance for 6 seconds

30% AoE Damage Reduction

30% Damage Reduction while Stunned

Low damage absorb shield ~ every 10 seconds

+3% Melee/Ranged Defense hance

+3 Shoulder Cannon charges == 15% more health attainable with the Shield Cannon utility.

 

Pyro:

30% Damage Reduction for 8 seconds

+5% elemental/internal damage reduction

-15% DoT damage taken

+1 stun breaker with utility.

 

If we factor in a longer battle where CD reductions matter, we can add to the above:

 

AP:

25% Damage Reduction for 15 seconds roughly once per minute

 

Pyro:

30% Damage Reduction for 8 seconds roughly once per minute

 

Furthermore the nuances of Kolto Overload makes the Pyrotech a slightly more vulnerable target than the AP. It is extremely common for a Pyrotech to drop from >40% to <30% (this is afterall only a bit more than 7k health difference). This means that at the *start* of a Kolto Overload window you are still vulnerable to execute abilities until KO can take you above 30%.

 

It also means that the Pyrotech's damage reduction kicks in closer to the extreme limit (i.e. death). That means that the room for error on the part of your healer is lower - their inability to heal during your damage reduction at, say, 70% gives them more breathing space than their inability to heal through at <40%.

 

This lower trigger for KO has implications in regular Warzones too - players of many classes look for lower health targets to come in and finish off. Damage reduction kicking in at a lower health level makes the Pyrotech a greater target.

 

One might say that Pyro's stronger Kolto Overload gives it a distinct advantage vs AP when being stunned, if the Automated Suit utility is taken. However if we compare the 30% DR in Kolto Overload, this is equaled by the 30% DR when stunned in AP. If the AP is not stunned this DR does not apply, but then he/she is not stunned! This enables the use of Sonic Round or Energy Shield - of course Pyro has these same options when not stunned. However yes, if these are on cooldown (and remember this is less likely on AP as on Pyro due to lower CDs), then AP will be squishier when not stunned.

 

All of this combined indicate that Pyro's defensive toolkit is inferior to AP's, and that in both regs and ranked the tradeoff of lower defensives is not in line with a higher damage output. The AP Powertech's ability to handle focus both through pre-emptive action (Sonic Round for a 30% Def Chance to everything - including stuns), and passive mitigation is superior.

 

It is of course absolutely true that, against a decent team or without a healer, both disciplines suffer against focus. But Pyro definitely needs some additional defenses alongside any DPS boost such as Firestorm.

 

The assumption that actually Pyro has better defenses is based on attacking AP mostly with roots and not stuns.

Apart from the dcds accurately mentioned above, there is also root for Pyro every <9s very efficient against stealth and melee.

Just as a reference, while Shield and KO are similarly frequent KO maintains HP on 40% +30% DR when shield is not. + break with Automated Defenses. -20% on SC hp from trauma if a tank is present while KO is not subjected.

Edited March 20, 2016 by Aetideus

[Smilinghawk]

Honestly if I had to choose I'd take a defensive buff over dmg buff. Though would not say no to a slight damage increase, particularly burstwise.

 

Also please consider giving pyro the self rebounder that has been suggested multiple times in multiple threads, just a simple one charge rebounder that is given on Sonic rebounder utility, might really be all that pyro needs.