Why hate LLC?

[Greezt]

I don't understand why LLC are considered so bad when people consider BLC/pods a viable build. BLCs have higher damage per shot (and armor penetration), but that's pretty much it. I don't think that BLCs should be substituted for LLCs, but why not take them on, for example, a novadive? You would get the essentially the same build (with the same limitations) as a flashfire, only higher DPS and no armor pen (which the novadive doesn't have anyway).

 

I also understand that DPS isn't a big factor in the high skill games, but the thing is that with BLC/pods you are already limited to close range or slow targets.

 

Could someone please explain?

[Jazyra]

I don't understand why LLC are considered so bad when people consider BLC/pods a viable build. BLCs have higher damage per shot (and armor penetration), but that's pretty much it. I don't think that BLCs should be substituted for LLCs, but why not take them on, for example, a novadive? You would get the essentially the same build (with the same limitations) as a flashfire, only higher DPS and no armor pen (which the novadive doesn't have anyway).

 

I also understand that DPS isn't a big factor in the high skill games, but the thing is that with BLC/pods you are already limited to close range or slow targets.

 

Could someone please explain?

 

Cause BLC 2 shots, it can hit even if you shot 10 meters away of your target.

[Ramalina]

BLC's have a firing arc that's 4 degrees wider, a tracking penalty that's half of LLC's, and a rate of fire that's less than half of LLCs.

 

Why is this bad for LLCs?

 

To do as well as BLCs with LLCs you need to hit with at least twice as many shots, and on a moving close range target all of those shots are going to be less likely to hit if the target isn't perfectly centered, and you have to have your target centered for a much greater proportion of the time.

 

Given the geometry of close range engagements on a non-stationary target, this winds up being a giant penalty on practical LLC DPS relative to practical BLC DPS. At short ranges a small amount of movement by the target can take it far out of the center of the arc and rack up a large tracking penalty.

 

Against an unarmored target that is stopped, and has an AFK pilot, LLCs are clearly superior to BLCs.

 

BLCs are superior for pretty much all other targets, which in GSF is just about all of them.

Edited February 15, 2016 by Ramalina

[Greezt]

I understand why BLC is superior to LLC. What I don't understand is why it's considered a bad choice for scouts without BLC. Lasers are obviously better long range, but if you're prepared to fly a BLC/pods build on your T2, why is a LLC/pods T1 build bad? Glancing shots are bad in any case when you have pods.

 

Edit: In regards to fire rate, BLCs with the same damage per shot and a higher rate of fire would be better, but I digress. My question is not about LLC vs. BLC, but about LLC vs. lasers, as in two different playstyles.

Edited February 15, 2016 by Greezt

[Ramalina]

Ah, ok.

 

So here the issue is that a BLC scout is basically defined by being a BLC scout. TT or BO are much more important to the BLC scout's burst damage than clusters are, and the sustained damage of clusters is flat out pathetic. Yes, cluster spam can produce a nearly infinite amount of whining in its targets, but it's much more effective at generating complaints than at delivering respectable damage.

 

A scout that trades clusters for pods is giving up ease of use, modest burst, and negligible sustained damage in trade for increased range, armor piercing, and an element of surprise from lack of missile lock warnings. If you want to focus on targeting bombers and gunships, those aren't bad tradeoffs in a secondary weapon while retaining the core power of a BLC build.

 

In a T1 scout the core power is really more a matter of stacking Rocket Pods, a primary weapon, and TT all at the same time. The point is for the primary weapon to complement the Pods as well as possible. LC's have 1 km extra range, and much better accuracy at range than LLCs. Basically, LCs start working at 5 km, where LLCs don't impress until ranges of under 3 km. Rocket pods are really weak against a maneuvering target due to small arc and harsh tracking penalties, so to have stacked fire you want your weapon engagement zones to overlap as much as possible.

 

Or to boil it down, Pods are great at ranges where LLCs suck, and LLCs are ok at ranges where Pods suck. It's considered better to stack great Pods and ok LCs than to stack great Pods and out of range LLCs.

 

For farming noobs it's less of an issue cause they don't move out of the way before you get to fire LLCs, but for a skilled gunship pilot you're only going to get a few LLC shots at harsh range penalties before they've gone evasive, at which point Pods, LCs, and LLCs become fairly unimpressive weapons.

 

For the T1 Pods and LC build the point is to get the kill at medium range before the target notices, and LLCs are pretty much useless for that.

 

For the T2 BLC and Pods build the style is still a close range dogfighter, but you've picked up a bit of utility against mines, drones, turrets, and stationary gunships.

 

 

Hope that's a decent explanation.

 

Edit: TLDR version: LLCs loose to BLCs at close range and to LC at mid range.

 

I don't think anyone hates LLCs, it's just that with a list of virtues that sums to, "a bit better than RFLs at close range," there's almost always a better choice available for a ship build, no matter the ship.

Edited February 15, 2016 by Ramalina

[Greezt]

Great explanation, thanks!

 

What about ships that don't have rocket pods? The T3 scout, for example?

[Ramalina]

User preference on the T3.

 

I tend to go with LC to have a range advantage that compensates a bit for lack of thrust endurance if Tensor isn't available, but if you wanted to maximize dogfighting potential while Tensor is active then LLC would be a somewhat better choice.

[caederon]

if you wanted to maximize dogfighting potential while Tensor is active then LLC would be a somewhat better choice.

I disagree with this on the grounds that LLC are lousy in a dogfight. As you explained above, the range, tracking penalty and firing arc make it very difficult to reliably land on anything in motion with LLC. The answer is 'don't dogfight in a T3 scout.' Hit and run. With LC, you have the reach to land on something, zoom past it, and come back around for another pass while keeping your offensive maneuvers relatively centered.

 

I kind of wish RFL had 0 tracking penalty and an enormous firing arc, and LLC had some other defining characteristic that set it apart other than 'high DPS.' The situations where high DPS is important at that range are very few and far between.

 

Despon

[RickDagles]

LLC /pod is pretty decent on the Novadive/Blackbolt but it's basically just a downgraded version of BLC/pod due to higher tracking penalty, lack of AP, and lower damage per shot.

 

Reg laser/pod offers a unique and useful flying style (ranged DPS) that only Quad/Pod can match. But most people like to keep BLC on their Flashfire/Sting which means they won't have access to Quad/Pod.

 

LLC is pretty decent on the Spearpoint/Bloodmark, especially with the extra turning provided by tensor field. I also kinda like LLC on the Clarion/Imperium since it's usually a bit better than Quads while fighting on nodes.

Edited February 16, 2016 by RickDagles

[NeverEvar]

There is also another issue with llc on t1 scout. No retro thrusters. sure you can have powerdive but its a defensive(very atrong- but defensive) engine manover, so offensive wise you don't have access that actually is a great to tool to maintain target in the place you want it to be.

 

As for T3 scout, using llc you are in range of blc+ secondary, where your secondary is useless.

 

Also cp targets and students. Thou llc is actually fun on a cp t2 strikes with clusters and emp. But that's not a serious build

 

regards

 

E3

[Greezt]

So, looking at the various cannons, I can still see some use for LLC. They could use an accuracy upgrade to bring them similar to lasers, but they aren't worthless. Like Siraka said, on a node, where you are forced to shoot at >2000m range, they are better than both quads and lasers. So a CP T3 strike could work with them quite well. On the T3 scout, where you're not limited by your secondaries, LLC are plausible in my opinion.

 

Basically, all other ships have BLC/HLC, or some other reason to take quads/lasers.

[Lendul]

LLC does have a very niche, but fun setup. If you have two T2 scouts you can set one up with BO+LLC+Sab. Probe+Bypass.