Poor Sportsmanship running rampant in Ops and PvP

[Keraejis]

There are a lot of good points and good ideas here but, ultimately, there is no way to make this better. Well, there is one way I can think of but it would take a huge amount of time that not many want to spend (we're wasting our time playing this game, right? Does it really matter if we can complete that FP in the fastest time possible? It's still wasted time). That way is to lead by example.

 

Actively join GF or PUGs for the sole purpose of being a 'mentor', not just to get your quota of the day. Any other way can be abused. I would love to see a player rating and be able to select to only match me with a certain player rating and above but bad apples can get their whole guild to give them a higher player rating and abuse the system. Then you have a newbie who is just trying to learn the game get rated bad by an entire guild because one of the members played with him/her and decided, since the newbie didn't know to click a button during a boss fight or even where it was during the first wipe gets a ruined rating for a long long time.

 

The problem with creating a 'mentor' option to lead FPs for newbies just means that if they get extra rewards, everyone will sign up and you'll get the same thing since the bads will just be there to get the extra rewards.

 

So really the only way is to lead by example. If you want it to become better, you'll have to do lots of Heroics, FPs and OPs helping those who need it.

 

And don't forget the backlash trying to help those who don't want it. I've tried to help some who turned around my kindness and berated me because they know how to play their class or call me some nice words and tell me to stuff it.

 

Then there's the passive ones who, after one wipe or they see what random FP was selected and just quit.

 

Getting into a good guild is easy for someone who is already in one to say. I've been in three guilds in the past year that say they are awesome then no one is ever on when I am on to group up or do anything and then when there is a few on, they just solo through what they 'need' to do and leave. Obviously, skipping the group content (hmm.. I wonder why?).

 

I don't have many characters on my friends list because I only add friendly helpful characters. And even then, I'm guessing they were on alts when I met them because they hardly ever seem to be around when I'm on. I used to have a cool core group of friends I played with but they've moved on for various reasons and now I'm traveling the hostile wasteland trying to find allies.

 

Keraejis

[ClaytonL]

don't get angry over keyboard warriors..

 

put them on ignore right away without warning and enjoy the silence !

[Unperson]

Any other way can be abused. I would love to see a player rating and be able to select to only match me with a certain player rating and above but bad apples can get their whole guild to give them a higher player rating and abuse the system. Then you have a newbie who is just trying to learn the game get rated bad by an entire guild because one of the members played with him/her and decided, since the newbie didn't know to click a button during a boss fight or even where it was during the first wipe gets a ruined rating for a long long time.

 

The problem with creating a 'mentor' option to lead FPs for newbies just means that if they get extra rewards, everyone will sign up and you'll get the same thing since the bads will just be there to get the extra rewards.

 

This is a problem with any system, in any context. Certain people abuse taxes, laws, the banks and what have you, but we still have all of that because even with a minority of people abusing the system, the belief is that the good outweighs the bad. The same with anything. The fact that a system can potentially be abused (and any system can be abused) is not by itself a sufficient basis to condemn the whole system.

 

People act only whenever there are incentives for them to act. Without incentives, you cannot reasonably expect people to do anything in a significant scale. There is already the odd player offering to lead a raid of first-timers through content in fleet chat, but that's an exceedingly rare occurrence, because there's nothing in it for that player -- not even recognition beyond the immediate thanks of the players s/he helps... if even that.

 

By incentivizing veteran players to share their know-how, you are offering them a chance to do something they may be naturally inclined to do but don't do because it's a complete waste of time and resources that would be better spent doing something else. That's why teachers are paid in the real world; if they only got out of it the satisfaction of preparing the next generation, we wouldn't have nearly enough of them. You don't need to offer the best rewards either, but simply something to make it worth their while. Maybe not even material rewards, which would as you surmise attract the wrong crowd, but something to show for the effort.

[peter_plankskull]

People act only whenever there are incentives for them to act. Without incentives, you cannot reasonably expect people to do anything in a significant scale. There is already the odd player offering to lead a raid of first-timers through content in fleet chat, but that's an exceedingly rare occurrence, because there's nothing in it for that player -- not even recognition beyond the immediate thanks of the players s/he helps... if even that.

 

By incentivizing veteran players to share their know-how, you are offering them a chance to do something they may be naturally inclined to do but don't do because it's a complete waste of time and resources that would be better spent doing something else. That's why teachers are paid in the real world; if they only got out of it the satisfaction of preparing the next generation, we wouldn't have nearly enough of them. You don't need to offer the best rewards either, but simply something to make it worth their while. Maybe not even material rewards, which would as you surmise attract the wrong crowd, but something to show for the effort.

 

You do get rewarded when you show a rookie the ropes, you get the satisfaction and feeling that you helped someone else with no gain for ones self. The only problem is that this really isn't enough for most people and want a reward met with materials or other things because apparently you have to get rewarded to be a good person.

 

The real problem is how streamlined and easy this game is now a days. You can literally just let your level 1 influence good ol faithful ship droid solo EVERYTHING FOR YOU, which in turn doesn't give the player any chance to get better. On top of that, its hard for the actual player to get better due to the fact there is ZERO challenge during the story content now. There's no small learning curve for players to slowly edge themselves into ops or even FPS anymore due to the fact the skill ceiling is so low in the story content. Once more stepping stones rise from the ashes to help guide players into FPs or ops, then players will be able to do better.

 

There aren't any fixes to helping trolls, but players getting better shouldn't depend solely on others, it should help of course, but the game should teach them as well.

Edited February 14, 2016 by peter_plankskull

[Unperson]

You do get rewarded when you show a rookie the ropes, you get the satisfaction and feeling that you helped someone else with no gain for ones self. The only problem is that this really isn't enough for most people and want a reward met with materials or other things because apparently you have to get rewarded to be a good person.

 

I get what you're saying. The world doesn't run on altruism, though, no matter how hard we'd like it to.

 

Edited February 14, 2016 by Unperson

[WisherOfEternity]

I've barely played Ops so far, although I must admit from what I did notice mistakes aren't easily forgiven always (for me it's an advantage I've done plenty of HM FPs and I have chosen a class I'm pretty well at (some moments exempted)). And while often it are mistakes that just happen, sometimes you have to wonder 'Is that person serious in wanting to do an Ops?'

 

Same with PvP - I have played plenty of PvP matches but I'm not hardcore in it (I'm decent with it, but not good either). What does annoy me to no end and sometimes causes me to lash out is people who totally aren't listening AT ALL what is being said in the chat, don't react either and don't give the impression either they really know what they're doing (I've seen some brilliant soloers, but they're rare - most who wander off on their own without any communication at all during a match are people who do not seemingly even intent to help out)

 

My personal stance is the following:

A) Everyone needs to learn the ropes. That's part of the game. Even hardcore PvPers&raiders did need that at some point. Mistakes are made

B) If someone admits they need some explanation about the FP/Ops/WZ (although often teaching for a WZ is kinda difficult to prepare people in time if it's about to start), I'll happily teach them what I can and try to pause at times to explain it (there sometimes were moments I got annoyed with the rest of the team because they complained about the 'newbie' making mistakes while not giving time to explain stuff)

C) However, if someone decides to go completely solo and silent while teamplay is needed and they're doing effectively clearly zero to help out with the team (like constantly rushing ahead in FPs without giving the rest of the team any time to recharge, or seeking kills in zones during PvP where only opponents are while the zone is strategically useless and they don't keep moving towards elsewhere), I've in the past opted for an votekick during FPs or during FPs, Ops and WZs just not to heal them if I had one of my healer toons.

[peter_plankskull]

C) However, if someone decides to go completely solo and silent while teamplay is needed and they're doing effectively clearly zero to help out with the team (like constantly rushing ahead in FPs without giving the rest of the team any time to recharge, or seeking kills in zones during PvP where only opponents are while the zone is strategically useless and they don't keep moving towards elsewhere), I've in the past opted for an votekick during FPs or during FPs, Ops and WZs just not to heal them if I had one of my healer toons.

 

Personally I think you should just kick the player in the ops. While yes, its unfortunate to kick someone, they aren't doing the bare minimum to maintain communication which is a vital aspect of group work. While you may not specifically heal said player, the other healer will, which in turn may cause them to strain there resources to keep said player alive depending on how bad there doing. Also the entire group will have to do more work as well, if said player is a tank then its all left to a single tank, which, for some boss fights, is impossible to do without, or requires A LOT of cheesing to do so. I know your trying to be nice and all, but it puts a entire strain that's unnecessary on the group, and besides, usually that player gets the best gear or the gear you want from said ops .

Edited February 14, 2016 by peter_plankskull

[-PassingStar-]

This thread isn't about how bad some players are, or how they make the game more difficult to play. It's about how we as a community decide to react to those individuals. Does lashing out in a profane tirade yield any "lasting" positive results, or does it further separate an already divided player base? The answer is obvious.

 

• I don't know how to explain the mechanics...

• People don't listen to instructions...

• You can't teach people PvP....

 

....are all just excuses some players use to validate poor behavior. Is it really that hard to just be decent to one another?

 

• Try offering advice without sarcasm.

• Make suggestions without the backhanded put-downs.

• Try treating the "bad" players with a modicum of respect.

[peter_plankskull]

This thread isn't about how bad some players are, or how they make the game more difficult to play. It's about how we as a community decide to react to those individuals. Does lashing out in a profane tirade yield any "lasting" positive results, or does it further separate an already divided player base? The answer is obvious.

 

• I don't know how to explain the mechanics...

• People don't listen to instructions...

• You can't teach people PvP....

 

....are all just excuses some players use to validate poor behavior. Is it really that hard to just be decent to one another?

 

• Try offering advice without sarcasm.

• Make suggestions without the backhanded put-downs.

• Try treating the "bad" players with a modicum of respect.

 

This only works if both individuals are willing to put forth the effort to learn and teach. Unfortunately, this does not always happen, but regardless ill always try to help, and its up to others to decide what they want to do, be part of the problem, or part of the solution.

[hillerbees]

Well said OP. OK this point may have been made before but it is still worth repeating.

 

Please, please, please if you are good at Warzones etc. can you speak up at the start with a strategy for your team rather than berating a player who is learning later on.

 

And to those who leave a warzone when they realise their team is going to lose can you explain to me why?!...some of the best warzones I have been in are where the tables are turned late in the game...you are missing out by not being involved.

[dimmidice]

I definitely agree. if someone makes mistakes or has sub-par gear explaining how to fix the mistake or explaining how to get better gear is actually useful. whining and insulting people just means they're less likely to bother trying to get better.

[AlrikFassbauer]

I've been a lot silent in OPs long ago, when I did them - and nobody complained, because I contributed the best I could.

It's easy as an ranged pure DPS.

The better I knew an OP, the less I wrote.

Edited February 14, 2016 by AlrikFassbauer

[branmakmuffin]

Poor sportsmanship running rampant in human race. Also, fire is hot and puppies are cute. More at 11:00.

[BenduKundalini]

Poor sportsmanship running rampant in human race. Also, fire is hot and puppies are cute. More at 11:00.

 

Dude what took you so long!

[Theeko]

End game raiding is ninja looting now nothing much to it

[-PassingStar-]

Poor sportsmanship running rampant in human race. Also, fire is hot and puppies are cute. More at 11:00.

Of course the problem is obvious, and yes it surrounds us in every-day life, but that doesn't mean we have to like it, or remain silent. Do I have any illusions that this thread will changing anything? No, but for those who enjoy the game and want to see its player base grow rather than shrink, its an important issue that needs remain topical.

 

I've just never been one who could sit idly by as another is physically or verbally attacked. I guess I've brought that part of RL self into the game.

[branmakmuffin]

Of course the problem is obvious, and yes it surrounds us in every-day life, but that doesn't mean we have to like it, or remain silent. Do I have any illusions that this thread will changing anything? No, but for those who enjoy the game and want to see its player base grow rather than shrink, its an important issue that needs remain topical.

And if we don't keep pointing out that puppies are cute, they will stop being cute and our hot dogs will be made from actual dogs.

[bekari]

anyother crying butthurt nab

don't like it don't play. if you ruin anyone's game they can **** on you yes

[-PassingStar-]

anyother crying butthurt nab

don't like it don't play. if you ruin anyone's game they can **** on you yes

And if we don't keep pointing out that puppies are cute, they will stop being cute and our hot dogs will be made from actual dogs.

...and here are two people who are part of the problem.

 

Thankfully this thread isn't for you, it's meant to give people who despise your behavior permission to speak up and chastise you for being immature and selfish. This isn't your game, it's our game. Stop living as if you're in a social vacuum.

[StarkHelsing]

...and here are two people who are part of the problem.

 

Thankfully this thread isn't for you, it's meant to give people who despise your behavior permission to speak up and chastise you for being immature and selfish. This isn't your game, it's our game. Stop living as if you're in a social vacuum.

 

Well said, very well said. Sadly they're not going to take the hint.

[Aeneas_Falco]

Always have to remember a lot of people simply do not have the natural skill set to teach someone. For example, someone may be skilled with their class but simply lack the ability to explain things in a detailed yet coherent matter. Also comes down to time and to be frank some people are simply do not have patience. I getting annoyed easily when it comes to helping other players, and a noticeable shift in my tone appears, so I tend to not avoid offering my help because I know I do not have the patience to teach someone, so I rather just kick the person and in hopefully get someone that knows the encounter.

 

 

Are those vote kicks for story mode Ops or hard mode?

 

Vote kicks are entirely justified in hard more or nightmare Ops where knowing the encounter should be part of the prerequisite. They are not justified at all however for storymode Ops. Storymode Ops are where players unfamiliar with the Op are supposed to be. They are the starting points for raiding, where players new to either raiding in general or that particular Op should go until they are familiar with the operation

 

If a veteran player joins a storymode OP and can't handle playing with new players who haven't run the content before, that veteran player is in the wrong place. That's why there are HM Ops. Hard Mode is a more challenging Op designed for people who are familiar with the base operation already.

 

Nothing grinds my gears like people trying to initiate a vote kick in a storymode Op when someone pipes up and says they've not run the content before. The people initiating those vote kicks are the ones deserving of the kick, not the newbie. Hard mode and above of course is a different story.

 

There are times of course that a new player might be deserving of a vote kick from a storymode PUG, but not for simply saying, "I haven't run this before." Vote kicks for inexperience in storymode ops are part of the toxic atmosphere in raid content.

Edited February 14, 2016 by Aeneas_Falco

[branmakmuffin]

...and here are two people who are part of the problem.

 

Thankfully this thread isn't for you, it's meant to give people who despise your behavior permission to speak up and chastise you for being immature and selfish. This isn't your game, it's our game. Stop living as if you're in a social vacuum.

No one needs anyone else's permission to "speak up." If you think you are giving the down-trodden and oppressed a voice they would not otherwise have, you are either extraordinarily arrogant or naive. Or both.

 

My game is "my game." I don't seek to intentionally ruin others' game play, but I don't care if you are miserable playing the game. Your fun is your responsibility, not mine.

[wwwwwvwwwww]

@OP

 

Those people exist everywhere. Best way to fix it is to get better and crush them whenever possible

[Wasabi]

People like that generally amuse me. Those people that rant about other people's performance, usually turn out to be non-factors in the match anyway. You won't find them near the ball, they won't ever guard a node, and typically don't try to do much of anything objective related.

 

So, my advice to you, just ignore them. I guarantee, most people see them as the idiot. Most would rather see you try and fail, than not to try at all.

 

As far as the hateful sexual orientation or racial or even religious comments go, REPORT them. There is no place for it in any social arena(online or real life) and is unacceptable behavior. Help them learn that by getting them temporarily banned from the game

 

Granted, I'm relatively new to MMO's, but I've notice a rather nasty trend when it comes to the behavior of certain players within PvP WarZones and Ops. For them the slightest mistake, by anyone, warrants a nasty ( profanity laden ) whisper or group wide remark that includes anything from questioning ones sexual orientation, a racial slur, and/or their lack of genitalia. - no it's not funny, and if you think it is then you're one of the ones I'm talking about.

 

As a new'ish player I can honestly tell you that these kinds of people are what drive the population down. People don't come here to be mistreated by individuals that probably wouldn't have the courage to say anything to anyone face to face. I firmly believe, after discussing this with literally hundreds of SWTOR players, the number one reason they don't participate in Ops or PvP, is because they don't want to deal with unwarranted and often cruel criticism. Basically, they're afraid to play end-game content because a vocal minority of MMO misfits have come to the conclusion that viciously berating people for mistakes is the norm. It isn't. Its uncalled for and rude.

 

Yes, PvP and Ops can be very competitive, and that can generate a lot of aggressive behavior, but there is no reason to attack someone because they're...

 

• New to the game.

• Inexperienced with the content

• Don't fully understand how the role they've chosen is supposed to be played. ( rotation, gearing )

 

Instead of attacking these people wouldn't it be more beneficial to offer advise? Perhaps they've never had the chance to do a certain Ops before, or are trying PvP for the first time.

 

I've completed every Op in the game from SM to HM, most NiM, and have 100 valor, but I've grown tried of inexperienced players being abused just because they're "not good enough."

 

C'mon, give these people a break. This game needs new players, and treating them like crap isn't going to compel them to stay.

 

Just my two cents.

[GoneGalt]

Even though I agree, making yet another post about it isn't going to change anything. Feel free to vent I guess, but the effort would be better spent actually coaching a newbie in-game. It's also infinitely more rewarding.

 

Just my $0.02

 

Pretty much my opinion. While I agree some people are toxic, and that applies to offline as well not just "gamers", virtue signalling isn't going to change anything. It'll get you tons of favs and likes f/ like minded folk, but doesn't fix the problem. Helping those you come across, grouping/guilding up w/ like minded folk, and ignoring the "out-group" will accomplish more. Locus of control and all that.