Anyone tried Master&Blaster since 4.0? Need help.

[Lodinn]

Closer to nightmare in my opinion. At least after all those claims of poor droids being "harder than many NiM bosses" in 3.x Not that I would mind all HM bosses being that level and NiM even better.

Irrelevant 3.x is irrelevant, Mostly

 

But well, now droids ARE harder than most NiM bosses, I'd give them that. Used to sorcbubble one of the beams in 3.x, so could tank Master with no swaps, just shrouding fire wheel of fire and pretty much standing in one spot doing nothing but eating cooldowns, stealthing out and occasionally popping an adrenal if group screws up somewhere.

 

In 4.x it felt like a great pressure on healers, mainly due to RoP. If your dps cut healers off any of the tanks, it's an insta GG.

Grenades timers were a problem in 3.x as well, mind being knocked up as the circle spawned on you and you had no time to run out or brief root after blaster knockback no matter what. I mean, we learned to work around those, but I'm pretty sure it was not really intended. I wonder how devs do playtesting for top-tier content, pretty sure they can't kill those themselves, no?

[gabigool]

Devs definitely disliked us sins soloing Master with 0 help from dps while healers were offdpsing. Sad.

 

I think you're spot on from a logic standpoint regarding why the charge arm's damage was cranked up so much. It's really the only thing that makes sense.

 

But - I don't think it's the case. Honestly, can you really see this current dev team understanding the fight at that deep a level? I doubt most of them have even done the fight, let alone looked closely at either kill videos or data to come to that conclusion.

 

I'm really not trying to be snarky, but when I look at the nerfs to the outgoing damage on Revan and Cora - I think they just screwed up MB.

 

That said, I suppose the change to HO's cooldown very well might be a direct reaction to stacking of BH's on Revan so perhaps someone in there is looking at this stuff but... I find it an awfully arbitrary change.

[UberSamoyed]

The conversation went like this:

Dev #1: PT's are cheesing our fight!

Dev #2: We better nerf hydro's. That'll learn'em.

Dev #1: Uh...we might have an issue, there's a lot of outspoken PT's out there...we better nerf the other tanks.

Dev #2: Well, how can we do that quickly and with as little effort as possible?

Dev #1: I think I could change the code were the Arm attack isn't registered as F/T so Shroud and Reflect won't work.

Dev#2: So kill all the tank cheese for this fight? I like everything about it.

Dev#1: It's still going to show up on Starparse as F/T, so it should keep them guessing.

Dev#2: Let'em guess. We designed this fight to be RNG hell, and no one should avoid that experience.

Dev#1: Err...we may have broken the fight. The KB's and Beam are now shooting the wrong direction.

Dev#2: Kinda funny isn't it? Darn elitists. We'll fix it in a few months during the Game of Thrones offseason.

Dev#1: By the way...the shield bug on Blaster still kicks in with too much dps and it's been that way since the PTS.

Dev#2: It's there for a reason. I call it my Elitist surprise.

Dev#1: That's a lot of bugs and we're cheesing all tanks?

Dev#2: Just put Musco on ignore. Cut, print, and that's a wrap!

[Lalainnia]

Does anyone else know what the logic is behind getting 3 bombs on 1 person while everyone is alive is this just bad rng?

[UberSamoyed]

It's just bad rng...and it happens often. See above conversation for logic.

[Shrodinher]

I think you're spot on from a logic standpoint regarding why the charge arm's damage was cranked up so much. It's really the only thing that makes sense.

 

But - I don't think it's the case. Honestly, can you really see this current dev team understanding the fight at that deep a level? I doubt most of them have even done the fight, let alone looked closely at either kill videos or data to come to that conclusion.

 

I'm really not trying to be snarky, but when I look at the nerfs to the outgoing damage on Revan and Cora - I think they just screwed up MB.

 

That said, I suppose the change to HO's cooldown very well might be a direct reaction to stacking of BH's on Revan so perhaps someone in there is looking at this stuff but... I find it an awfully arbitrary change.

It's just that most mechanics in PvE, especially those we are using cooldowns on, are on 30/60/120 second timer, because round numbers are sexy. Hydraulics shined in 3.x because accidentally Bioware decided to put so many physics stuff in encounters, and it was naturally aligning with cheese (granted, it is also aligning perfectly with most other tanks' defensives (damn juggs with their stupid 150 second cooldowns), it's just that Overcharge doesn't help much on machine heartbeat ). It could've been that it was working on too many fights, and small (in terms of amount of work, not importance) change would break tons of cheese that Bioware obviously hates. Or, we can look at sorcs -- devs weren't able to figure out new ability for them and added Phase Walk instead, which required nerf to mobility (Force Speed cooldown), which kinda gave a good reason to nerf/change some other classes mobility as well. Very unlikely, but so is theory about em caring about ways we defeat bosses if it's not outright ignoring mechanics like on Monolith pre 2nd fix (or was it 3rd?). Or maybe they really wanted to just make all melee classes to have leap, and nerfing cooldowns on previous mobility stuff looked natural, and they didn't even bothered to think what it can cause in PvE.

 

As for screwing damage, I totally agree. Was more sarcastic than anything. I doubt anyone who tried Torque (any HM mode) or Cora/Ruugar 16m HM will claim there was a bit of thought behind tuning bosses.

The conversation went like this:

Dev #1: PT's are cheesing our fight!

Dev #2: We better nerf hydro's. That'll learn'em.

Dev #1: Uh...we might have an issue, there's a lot of outspoken PT's out there...we better nerf the other tanks.

Dev #2: Well, how can we do that quickly and with as little effort as possible?

Dev #1: I think I could change the code were the Arm attack isn't registered as F/T so Shroud and Reflect won't work.

Dev#2: So kill all the tank cheese for this fight? I like everything about it.

Dev#1: It's still going to show up on Starparse as F/T, so it should keep them guessing.

Dev#2: Let'em guess. We designed this fight to be RNG hell, and no one should avoid that experience.

Dev#1: Err...we may have broken the fight. The KB's and Beam are now shooting the wrong direction.

Dev#2: Kinda funny isn't it? Darn elitists. We'll fix it in a few months during the Game of Thrones offseason.

Dev#1: By the way...the shield bug on Blaster still kicks in with too much dps and it's been that way since the PTS.

Dev#2: It's there for a reason. I call it my Elitist surprise.

Dev#1: That's a lot of bugs and we're cheesing all tanks?

Dev#2: Just put Musco on ignore. Cut, print, and that's a wrap!

 

You forgot a part where they, followed by their deep love to raiders, decide to fix double/triple bomb bug that happened accidentally throughout 3.x, and, of course, make it much worse, happening almost all the time and now with more bombs!

 

Also, are you sure about Shroud? Was working for me, granted, haven't brought sin into the fight for maybe 2 months or so. And Saber Reflect never worked on anything but Rain of Pain if memory serves me well.

It's just bad rng...and it happens often. See above conversation for logic.

Double bomb is due to "slowest" of them still being up when new ones come. Triple bomb is due to bad luck and bad coding. 4x/5x (have anyone seen more?) is due to spectacularly bad luck, and even more spectacularly bad coding.

[VegasTheLost]

I doubt anyone who tried Torque (any HM mode)... ...there was a bit of thought behind tuning bosses.

 

Just to drop this one here and I'll be on my way out. Torque is the perfect example of the 'big FU to melee classes' boss.

[Foxpthree]

The bombs go out regardless of how many people are left alive in the fight. In 16m as you start to lose people you are guaranteed double and triple bombs. If you are the only person alive and everyone else is running off the ship or into the wall you get like 8-10 bombs on you at the same time.

 

With that said I think every class can survive double bombs as you have a few seconds to react to it. You can see the cast for when bombs are coming out and you can see your bomb timers so just be aware and pop a cooldown, spec into reduced damage from aoe or while stunned and you should make it.

 

Our biggest problem with the RNG in 16m was really the rain and pain combo with a bomb blowing up as not everyone has something that can negate the stun/knockdown from a bomb...thus your bomb can blow up and you are stuck in the red carpet. Best move for getting around that is the new tank adrenals which are awesome! Can totally stand in 1 red carpet...2 if you time it perfect and not die with the new tank adrenals popped.

[gabigool]

Just to drop this one here and I'll be on my way out. Torque is the perfect example of the 'big FU to melee classes' boss.

 

Lol at the original fire animation, then again at how they changed it to the natural gas blue that no one could see.

 

But to your point - it's the only boss our melee played ranged because it was just annoying more than anything.

 

I guess I just find it sort of odd that MB should be so difficult and Cora so stupidly easy. My team was only 4/5 & 4/5 before 4.0. When we got MB down in 4.0 we figured we'd take a break from Ravagers at least until they fixed the telegraph animation, but had an hour so we decided to do a few ***** and giggles pulls on Cora because 6 players had never pulled it. We dropped it on pull 3. That's sad. I can't see the logic behind the relative scaling of those two bosses, especially in that order.

 

Had it been that way at release I'd feel differently, but clearly most of Rav/ToS were nerfed into the ground - and then MB was buffed? Just nonsensical.

 

BTW I loved the transcript. fine work.

[Lalainnia]

Ya i was just curious about the triple bombs going out on a person while everyone is still alive wasn't sure if it was intended or not ty for the replies.

[VegasTheLost]

Lol at the original fire animation, then again at how they changed it to the natural gas blue that no one could see.

 

But to your point - it's the only boss our melee played ranged because it was just annoying more than anything.

 

I guess I just find it sort of odd that MB should be so difficult and Cora so stupidly easy. My team was only 4/5 & 4/5 before 4.0. When we got MB down in 4.0 we figured we'd take a break from Ravagers at least until they fixed the telegraph animation, but had an hour so we decided to do a few ***** and giggles pulls on Cora because 6 players had never pulled it. We dropped it on pull 3. That's sad. I can't see the logic behind the relative scaling of those two bosses, especially in that order.

 

Had it been that way at release I'd feel differently, but clearly most of Rav/ToS were nerfed into the ground - and then MB was buffed? Just nonsensical.

 

BTW I loved the transcript. fine work.

 

Yeah I heard that way before it was even more anoying. And also I as well got fed up with it and switched to sniper so we killed it with a full ranged DPS. Nevertheless I won't rest till I kill it with my mara....

 

Regarding Cora being easy, my friend tells me the same thing and I remember she was greatly feared before 4.0. MB, we'll see sometime soon I guess. I mean I don't mind if MB is hard AF(even if it just because of twisted RNG) but only IF Cora is nightmarish. So the current state is kinda nonsensical like you said.

[UberSamoyed]

Multiple attempts on MB, then we one shot Cora...on a pull in which we said "Let's just pull it to see how it works now." Relative to MB, Cora isn't even in the same ballpark. I always thought Op's progression should follow a linear pattern of increasing difficulty. Clearly, I was wrong. Cora is ridiculously easy.

[Lalainnia]

Multiple attempts on MB, then we one shot Cora...on a pull in which we said "Let's just pull it to see how it works now." Relative to MB, Cora isn't even in the same ballpark. I always thought Op's progression should follow a linear pattern of increasing difficulty. Clearly, I was wrong. Cora is ridiculously easy.

 

I think if they made it so ppl couldn't push cora out super fast bump her hp up and if they did so should make the bird double enrage much faster along with putting out its abilites/debuff 2x as much. Then not being able to just rez everyone after the bird wold be a somewhat big deal as well. Doing the first 2 things though imo just from repetition and making it longer would make the fight more difficult imo not exactly sure what to add in terms of another mech. A for Rutabaga (ruttgaar) I would actually add a mech to have himself healed any time ppl damage him and then give him a mini enrage if a friendly player is killed for 10 seconds when he kidnaps someone to stress the importance of stopping.

 

Back to the cora and pearl part I would actually add turrets that can be attacked to deck guns that have a long cast time of maybe 20-30 seconds that need to be dpsed down or they will stun the player with the highest aggro towards them most likely a healer for 5 seconds wouldn't be able to cc break it but could cc immunity it with abilities.

 

Like you said though that fight was a massive disappointment compared to the block that MB was

[Lodinn]

Dev#1: By the way...the shield bug on Blaster still kicks in with too much dps and it's been that way since the PTS.

Dev#2: It's there for a reason. I call it my Elitist surprise.

LOL, that's a nice one.

 

Lol at the original fire animation, then again at how they changed it to the natural gas blue that no one could see.

 

But to your point - it's the only boss our melee played ranged because it was just annoying more than anything.

 

I guess I just find it sort of odd that MB should be so difficult and Cora so stupidly easy. My team was only 4/5 & 4/5 before 4.0. When we got MB down in 4.0 we figured we'd take a break from Ravagers at least until they fixed the telegraph animation, but had an hour so we decided to do a few ***** and giggles pulls on Cora because 6 players had never pulled it. We dropped it on pull 3. That's sad. I can't see the logic behind the relative scaling of those two bosses, especially in that order.

 

Had it been that way at release I'd feel differently, but clearly most of Rav/ToS were nerfed into the ground - and then MB was buffed? Just nonsensical.

I kept rolling mara on torque unless we needed a ton of damage, in which case sniper is the answer, but hey, having 1 melee is beneficial anyway! Or merc/mando, for that regard. Someone's gotta control these 3rd vents.

 

Many pre-mono 204 teams had more issues with Cora than with Revan. Revan was cheesable with BH and core was a mechanic dps check about finding windows for landing a couple of abilities. Ruugar was insane as it was, quite hard even with 204 and absolutely unnerving with more than a couple melees in a group. Damn mice literally wrecked people, so after some rng on Cora phase which STILL could cause like 3-4 wipes even for an experienced group you had to keep like 100% awareness for the entirety of Ruugar. I've healed and dpsed this crap, but barely tanked it, even tho I main a tank so to say, but for both roles it was insane. Even for sniper dps, you had a lot of responsibility with mice cause AT LEAST YOU HAD MEANS TO DEAL WITH THEM. Ahem.

I mean, in 3.0 M&B was a breeze, could take a couple of new people, np. Cora, however... Well, you could carry people just like I was carried But then again I somewhat knew the fight, group was well coordinated etc. Damn, Cora was faster to progress than Revan if you had real good dps but random as hell and far, far more stressful.

 

Back to your point - bottleneck bosses aren't new, it's okay if Draxus is harder than Grob and CZ, Dread guards are harder than Op9 and Kephess... There was a point about "You kill this boss+get it on farm, and get rewarded with more shinies on the next two + there's a big prize in the end", to slow gear progression and require people to get some boss on farm to learn next ones, which will be easier and providing sort of a relaxing progression.

It's not hard to see that it fails miserably when you try to apply this concept to 4.0 Ravagers.

 

So... Just bad design. Most likely overtuned M&B given Revan is a joke now, too, as compared to 3.x version.

[MotorCityMan]

It's obvious that when they rescaled Ops and Flashpoints in 4.0 they did it without sufficient testing. So many of these encounters are not scaled correctly. Many of the players in our guild just consider them broken and are so tired of waiting for Bioware to make adjustments they have quit.

[xkcurtisx]

Irrelevant 16m is irrelevant.

Also, does infinite Phase Walk bug still work on it?

Cloak puts pressure on healers. Otherwise, pressure goes on dps. Different way works better in different groups and highly depends on group composition (besides, we have that one sage running on our server who claims MB 2nd phase is nigh solo healable and pretty easy). And back in <Katharsis> I could afford both to cloak AND save Shroud exclusively for bad RNG on mines (on one especially terrible try one of teammates got 5 bombs disregarding 0 deaths before... gg bioware). It just takes decent healers.

Closer to nightmare in my opinion. At least after all those claims of poor droids being "harder than many NiM bosses" in 3.x Not that I would mind all HM bosses being that level and NiM even better.

 

Good thing all i wrote was regarding 8man