Distributing Loot in Pug Operations

[ScicleX]

TL;DR: Dealing with OPs Loot in Pugs is hard, suggest using these copy & paste guidelines to make it easier.

 

I want more Loot than my Guild could ever offer me, so I seek out other players looking for the same. I find it hard to believe that in an OP that drops more tokens than players, that anybody should be expected to waste an hour or more of their time and not walk away without at least 1 of them. Honestly anybody that disagrees with that is purely affected by Greed and will probably consider ninja looting at some point in the future. The most common reason to run an OP is to get gear, most players feel the same way, yet I see a lot of them only caring for their own gains rather than all 8 of the people it takes to get it done. I do wish there was a better loot system in place that would promote pugging and ensure nobody had to trust ANY strangers with distributing the loot they came for. However, something like this probably wont happen anytime soon, as the Bioware team is clearly more invested in the story aspects of the game currently. So it comes down on us, the players, to find a better way to handle it ourselves.

 

We can say that hands down most people wont join a pug group that is using Master Looter, so in favor of getting groups formed faster and more often we should probably avoid this and stick with Round Robin unless the entire group can trust the Operations Leader. In the sense of being fair to everybody and not having 1 person walk off with way more than anybody else, all of the possible loot should be split out as evenly as possible to all participants. This affects only the high ticket items including the 224 Tokens, 220 Tokens, 216 Tokens, and Dark Matter Catalysts.

 

For Story Mode and Non-High Priority Hard Mode:

In OPs with only 1 Boss (TC/HoR/Xeno/Eyeless) there should be a 1 DMC AND 1 Token per person policy regardless of the tier (216/220), as there will only be 1 DMC AND 1 Token in 8m and 2 DMC AND 2 Tokens in 16m.

In OPs with 4 Bosses (EC) there should be a 1 DMC AND 1 Token per person policy regardless of the tier (216/220), as there will be 4 DMC AND 4 Tokens in 8m and 8 DMC AND 8 Tokens in 16m.

In OPs with 5 Bosses (EV/KP/TFB/DF/DP/Rav/ToS) there should be a 1 DMC AND 1 Token per person policy regardless of the tier (216/220), as there will be 5 DMC AND 5 Tokens in 8m and 10 DMC AND 10 Tokens in 16m.

In OPs with 7 Bosses (S&V) there should be a 1 DMC AND 1 Token per person policy regardless of the tier (216/220), as there will be 7 DMC AND 7 Tokens in 8m and 14 DMC AND 14 Tokens in 16m.

 

For High Priority Hard Mode:

• In OPs with 4 Bosses (EC) there should be a 1 DMC AND 1 Token per person policy regardless of the tier (220/224), as there will be 4 DMC AND 8 Tokens in 8m and 8 DMC AND 16 Tokens in 16m.
  
• In OPs with 5 Bosses (EV/KP/TFB/DF/DP/Rav/ToS) there should be a 1 DMC AND at least 1-2 Tokens per person policy regardless of the tier (220/224), as there will be 5 DMC AND 10 Tokens in 8m and 10 DMC AND 20 Tokens in 16m. The group should decide which of the tokens should be labelled the "2 extras" in 8m, and the "4 extras" in 16m. Those extra tokens should then be given their own tier of 1 Token per person, which do not count towards the original 1 Token per person limit of the original 8 Tokens in 8m, and the original 16 Tokens in 16m.
  
• In OPs with 7 Bosses (S&V) there should be a 1 DMC AND at least 1-2 Tokens per person policy regardless of the tier (220/224), as there will be 7 DMC AND 14 Tokens in 8m and 14 DMC AND 28 Tokens in 16m. The group should decide which of the tokens should be labelled the "6 extras" in 8m, and the "12 extras" in 16m. Those extra tokens should then be given their own tier of 1 Token per person, which do not count towards the original 1 Token per person limit of the original 8 Tokens in 8m, and the original 16 Tokens in 16m.

 

For Nightmare (After announced fix to loot tables [until then, use Non-Priority Hard Mode rules instead]):

• TBD: The added RNG of "possible 224 Tokens dropping" makes this a lot more complicated to figure out. Most of these runs are a bit more difficult to PUG and therefore premade groups will most likely use Master Looter to hand out whatever they end up getting fairly at the end of the run.

 

Now in order to achieve these fair rules there are 2 good options that I have seen work in practice:

1. Have a trusted player use Master Looter to either:
   • Collect all of the Tokens and DMC to be handed out before the timer runs out or at the end of the run, whichever comes first;
     
   • OR Hand out the DMC and Tokens to top /roll after each boss, with the option of holding onto the 220 Tokens in Highlighted Hard Modes IF the entire group prefers to roll on all of the 224 Tokens first.
     

[*]Use a Round Robin System. Have the Raid Leader keep track of everybody's winnings and call players out if they go outside of the 1 or 1-2 Tokens or 1 DMC limit per player. In order to enforce the 1 or 1-2 Tokens and 1 DMC rule there needs to be a clear explanation at the beginning of each run so all players understand and agree to it. See Below*

*When forming a Story Mode or Non-Highlighted HM group, advertise as: LFM players that want a fairly distributed loot run, limit of 1 DMC and 1 (216/220) Token per person. Need (Tanks/Healers/DPS) for (OPs Name, SM/HM, 8m/16m).**

*When forming a Highlighted HM group, advertise as: LFM players that want a fairly distributed loot run, limit of 1 DMC and at least 1-2 Tokens per person regardless of tier (220/224). Tokens considered "extras" will be decided on in a majority vote. Need (Tanks/Healers/DPS) for (OPs Name, HM, 8m/16m).**

**Optional: Achievements/Gear/Voice Chat/Parser required.

 

Spam to be used after the group is fully formed (Copy & Paste):

1. Loot Rules: At least 1-2 Tokens per person regardless of tier (220/224), Need/Greed wins count as your 1-2 Tokens. 1 DMC each, Mats/Decos/MK-2s are Free Roll. We'll vote on which of the available Tokens will be considered "extras" for the 2nd Token Roll.
   
2. If you don't wish to waste your 1-2 Token allotment on any items (like a 220 Token) then Click the "X" on that item to pass on it so you don't win it. If a Token has no Need/Greed rolls, I will hold the item until after the last boss.
   
3. If someone wins both the 224 and 220 version of the same item, the 220 will be given to the next highest roll for it, if nobody else rolled then it will be given to me to be handed out after the last Boss.
   
4. All held items will be handed out in order of acquisition to whoever hasn't gotten their 1 Token yet. If everyone has 1 Token then they go to whoever hasn't gotten 2 yet. Top /roll wins for each piece; If any are passed on we'll cycle through again.
   
5. As an Operations Announcement (/oa): These rules will be STRICTLY enforced, so please ask for any clarification now before we start.

 

If you want to take it a step farther you can change the loot rules from Round Robin to Master Looter before the final boss to lock out any Ninja trying to walk away with the most valuable items. Please be very cautious when doing this as it will trigger most people to call you out as a Ninja Looter, hopefully you have shown your worth by enforcing the rules up to this point already. To help, post this before changing (Copy & Paste):

• 
  Switching to ML to prevent Ninjas. Last 2 without 1 Token will roll on them, if everyone has 1 Token then they go to anyone without 2. Anyone that hasn't won 1 DMC will roll for it, any stacks of Decos are split & given to top rolls, the rest is randomed.

 

Hopefully with these guidelines you will be able to find more quality people and avoid being heavily affected by most of the Ninja Looters out there.

 

And remember! The only way to stop Ninja Looters is to take the time to report them. If you lay down the rules up front and ensure everybody verbally agrees to it, then you have a basis for Bioware to take action against anybody that doesn't follow them. Take the time to put a ticket in. Hopefully we can slowly purge out the bad eggs this way.

[AgentDib]

Just FYI, there are many reasons why perfectly fair-minded vets may not use a one token per person rule variation.

 

Tokens are not equally valued. Trying to compare a 220 offhand with a 216 set piece is hard, let alone something like a 224 implant with a 224 belt with a 224 offhand. Loot rules that overlook this fact are inefficient at allocating loot because people avoid rolling on stuff that would otherwise be good for them (because it isn't "best" for them). Or they settle on a sub-optimal piece to avoid losing out entirely and as a result are subtly robbed of expected value by the more experienced members.

 

Many veterans are also not afraid of randomness because they do a large number of runs. Fluctuations in luck become less noticeable as you increase quantity and many have been running these same operations for a very long time now. It's a lot faster to just random out loot or round robin it, and while it may not seem like a big deal on a single operation stuff like this does add up over time.

 

For some people it just isn't worth slowing things down and reducing fairness simply in order to mitigate risk. For others it is and so being upfront about the loot system is very important.

 

Honestly anybody that disagrees with that is purely affected by Greed and will probably consider ninja looting at some point in the future.

Maybe not your best sentence here.

[ScicleX]

Just FYI, there are many reasons why perfectly fair-minded vets may not use a one token per person rule variation.

 

Tokens are not equally valued. Trying to compare a 220 offhand with a 216 set piece is hard, let alone something like a 224 implant with a 224 belt with a 224 offhand. Loot rules that overlook this fact are inefficient at allocating loot because people avoid rolling on stuff that would otherwise be good for them (because it isn't "best" for them). Or they settle on a sub-optimal piece to avoid losing out entirely and as a result are subtly robbed of expected value by the more experienced members.

 

Many veterans are also not afraid of randomness because they do a large number of runs. Fluctuations in luck become less noticeable as you increase quantity and many have been running these same operations for a very long time now. It's a lot faster to just random out loot or round robin it, and while it may not seem like a big deal on a single operation stuff like this does add up over time.

 

For some people it just isn't worth slowing things down and reducing fairness simply in order to mitigate risk. For others it is and so being upfront about the loot system is very important.

 

Comparing the value of items is taken into account for this, there is always the option for you to pass on every unwanted token and save your roll for the 1 piece you want, but regardless of how you do loot nothing is guaranteed to you as everybody wants the same pieces, so it is still always on YOU to value which Tokens you want most and which you would be okay to settle with. Had you done your normal run of randomed loot or round robin there is an even higher chance you wouldn't get any pieces at all, and the odds are further stacked against you as you have a 1:8 chance on every piece, whereas with my Round Robin method you increase your odds as more loot goes out from 1:8 down to 1:2. Also, the people getting "subtly robbed" do still value the lower tier pieces, as at least they are getting something that would be an improvement to them, which then thins the crowd for the veterans looking for the top tier gear only. Truly the only fair way to hand out the most valuable items first and go down the line is to Master Looter and do everything at the end, which as I stated most pugs will avoid your group and cause you to waste the valuable time you'd rather not spend dealing with loot in the first place, which contradicts your own point. Furthermore, if most of the group shares the same approach as you do on saving rolls for the 224 tokens, then by the end the OP all the tokens would be passed on, being held onto by the Leader, and distributed after the last boss, creating the loot system you suggested, but still allowing some of the less veteran players a chance at guaranteeing themselves a lesser valued piece, and leaving the veterans better odds at the pieces they wanted.

[AgentDib]

Right, you are trading off perfect fairness for a mini-game loot system that removes outliers from both sides of the loot distribution. Nobody will get very lucky (winning every 224 piece) and nobody will get very unlucky (winning zero items). Many people view this as a good trade and I run some variant more than half the time depending on what the PUG is for.

 

Just realize that there are plenty of people who are comfortable with randomness and as such don't particularly like this trade; it has nothing to do with greed or being a loot ninja. You identify one of the ways in which a one token loot variant can be used to take advantage of new players who waste their rolls on pieces with a tenth of the value of the some of the other items on the run. Randoming everything out provides a higher expected value for new players over the long run.

Edited January 15, 2016 by AgentDib

[Mokuyobi]

Both of your points are valid, although I think that OP's loot system is a bit too complex for pugs. I've personally lead many a pug group, including SM, HM, PHM, and even a few NiM's, and I usually run ML. However, I believe that SM's are so common now, and pug groups are so easy to find for said SM's, that the time it takes to set up ML and explain "one token per person" and whatnot is basically wasted time at this point. I used to run ML for SM's religiously, however I find that more and more people aren't rolling on items like Bracers, Implants, Ears, etc... and only want the "big" items like Greaves, Chest, and all that jazz. This forces the lead to keep said item until the end, and with the quality of players these days this can sometimes take awhile. Back when I ran ML on SM's regularly, what I would do in a situation like that is keep it until the end and then have those who haven't won anything roll on it at that point in time if they wanted to. However the problem with that--and this actually has happened to me--is that if no one rolls on it at that time there is no way to rando it out...and then you get called a ninja, despite any valid arguments. As for DMC's, in SM's there is only one that drops, and it is usually at the last boss. Many groups I have ran with, and lead as well, will free roll on this and a good portion of people are fine with it.

 

The above being said, I believe that any pug group running HM's or higher absolutely needs to be set to ML. 220's and up are just too valuable for me to place my trust in group members not rolling every single time. Honestly, I rarely even pug HM's anymore unless I have at least a few members in the group I am familiar with. However, when I get a wild hair and decide to lead one (EV is probably the most common, as it is extremely easy in HM), the way I run my loot distribution is one token per person, including implant/ear and MH/OH. Since DMC's drop off of every boss on HM runs, I always save those until the end, and then whomever hasn't won anything automatically gets one. If there are any leftover at that point in time, it's free roll all the way. That way, EVERYONE gets at least something for their time (after all, DMC's go for about a mill or more on the GTN, so only getting that from a run isn't the absolute worst outcome). Other than that, all assembled pieces are rando'd out unless someone specifically states they want it. Same goes for decos. On a special note, the Exotic Isotopes (or whatever they're called, its the blue mat that drops off of every boss regardless of difficulty) I will ALWAYS rando out, regardless if someone specifically wants it or not.

 

Overall, it comes down to the lead to be fair and honest with everyone. If you are leading SM's and don't feel like setting ML, let everyone know before queueing or heading in, as some people are NOT fine with that. Round Robin should always be on an honor system, and the lead should be paying attention to who is winning **** so they don't win multiple items. This keeps it fair for everyone, and gives everyone a fair chance at winning stuff.

[ScicleX]

However the problem with that--and this actually has happened to me--is that if no one rolls on it at that time there is no way to rando it out...and then you get called a ninja, despite any valid arguments.

 

The easiest way to random out a piece after it's already claimed is to "/roll 1-2" which will give you the group #, then "/roll 1-4" which will give you the player number. Example below, (Group Number-Player Number)

 

1-1 | 2-1

1-2 | 2-2

1-3 | 2-3

1-4 | 2-4

[CheaterLL]

For Story Mode and Non-High Priority Hard Mode:

In OPs with only 1 Boss (TC/HoR/Xeno/Eyeless) there should be a 1 DMC AND 1 Token per person policy regardless of the tier (216/220), as there will only be 1 DMC AND 1 Token in 8m and 2 DMC AND 2 Tokens in 16m.

In OPs with 4 Bosses (EC) there should be a 1 DMC AND 1 Token per person policy regardless of the tier (216/220), as there will be 4 DMC AND 4 Tokens in 8m and 8 DMC AND 8 Tokens in 16m.

In OPs with 5 Bosses (EV/KP/TFB/DF/DP/Rav/ToS) there should be a 1 DMC AND 1 Token per person policy regardless of the tier (216/220), as there will be 5 DMC AND 5 Tokens in 8m and 10 DMC AND 10 Tokens in 16m.

In OPs with 7 Bosses (S&V) there should be a 1 DMC AND 1 Token per person policy regardless of the tier (216/220), as there will be 7 DMC AND 7 Tokens in 8m and 14 DMC AND 14 Tokens in 16m.

 

In Story Mode there is only a single DMC at the final boss (and none in 1-boss ops), resulting in 5 token and 1 DMC for 5-boss ops.

 

I usually roll the tokens first, then the DMC, then the random 220 piece form the final boss, then all the blue mats that dropped throughout as a consolation prize for the person that didn't get anything (up to 12 when doing all 3 minibosses in TFB).

 

For S&V you have 7 tokens and 1 DMC for 8 ppl.

 

In EC I'd make the tank mount and/or decorations count as a token if they drop.