How powerful is Malgus?!

[The-Kaitou-Kid]

In Return, Malgus was an apprentice too. Satele wasn't the only one who wasn't at her prime yet.

 

As for Hope, I'm not looking after Jace intervened, because the fight is no longer a 1v1, and thus (while not irrelevant) is much less important then the 1v1 fight in determining who would win in a 1v1. Sure, I could agree that Jace and Satele vs. Malgus would probably not end in Malgus' favor.... but that's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about Satele vs. Malgus.

 

And before Jace intervened.... sure, Satele wasn't killed or irrevocably defeated, but all of the beats of the fight played out in Malgus's favor, Satele was on the defensive almost the whole time, and the fight ended with her on her knees, her saber sliced in half, and her holding back Malgus' saber with anguish on her face as Malgus slowly pressed the blade closer to her chest.

 

I still wouldn't say that's how the fight "ended" though. We don't know what would have happened if Malcolm hadn't interfered. Satele could have subsequently moved out of the way and finished Malgus off on the return via the power she'd show with the Force at the end of the trailer, we don't know. What we do know is that Satele was able to stop that lightsaber blow from Malgus so it stands to reason she could do it again and was far from out of that fight. We also know that Satele is already strong in the Force at this point. Malcolm's interference didn't give Satele that ability, so you can't completely discount the fact that she blew Malgus into the side of a cliff and then brought it down on top of him. That's an impressive feat no matter what way you slice it and that was something she could do in battle. It certainly plays into any battle they may have.

 

Now, again I agree it would be a close fight, and that they are roughly equals..... and the evidence we have doesn't conclusively say "Malgus would clearly defeat Satele in every circumstance!"..... however in my view there is more evidence suggesting that Malgus would win, then evidence suggesting Satele would win, and that gives Malgus a slight edge over Satele, based on what we know.

 

The evidence is incomplete and indecisive, however I do think it does lean towards Malgus. And if I was forced to pick a winner, as equal as they are..... I'd still go with Malgus.

 

I wouldn't say the evidence leans towards Malgus at all considering what the Hope trailer was. Their battle there was, for the most part, a lightsaber duel. Malgus is clearly the better duelist of the two and as such was winning that duel. But when he cut Satele's lightsaber in half, she fell back on her Force powers and subsequently demonstrated her own strength in the closing sequence of the battle. Both her skill with tutaminis and her power with the Force in general would give her a strong advantage. Malgus would have his own strong advantage due to his skill with a lightsaber.

 

So again, it depends entirely on the circumstances. In a battle like the one in the Hope trailer, without Malcolm's intervention, I'd say Satele has the advantage. Malgus could still win, but there's a lot of room for her to make distance and use the environment to her advantage as she did in the ending sequence. Once she stopped dueling with him and instead played towards her own strength, she'd have the advantage. In a situation like, say, the end of False Emperor? I'd give the advantage to Malgus (assuming a one on one with Satele), because there was much less room to make distance and avoid it becoming a lightsaber duel that Malgus would ultimately win. Her tutaminis would make that interesting but barring her pushing him off, he'd still hold the advantage.

 

In general, it's too close to call without knowing specifics of the battle in question and I'd wager that's by design. They're meant to be the spearheads for their respective sides (until Malgus is ultimately replaced by Darth Marr) so it stands to reason they'd be very evenly matched.

[Swissbob]

I still wouldn't say that's how the fight "ended" though. We don't know what would have happened if Malcolm hadn't interfered. Satele could have subsequently moved out of the way and finished Malgus off on the return via the power she'd show with the Force at the end of the trailer, we don't know. What we do know is that Satele was able to stop that lightsaber blow from Malgus so it stands to reason she could do it again and was far from out of that fight. We also know that Satele is already strong in the Force at this point. Malcolm's interference didn't give Satele that ability, so you can't completely discount the fact that she blew Malgus into the side of a cliff and then brought it down on top of him. That's an impressive feat no matter what way you slice it and that was something she could do in battle. It certainly plays into any battle they may have.

 

You're right in that we don't know what would have happened. Satele could have moved out of the way and defeated Malgus. Maglus could have also been moments away from overpowering Satele, and could have impaled her.

 

We don't know how it would have played out... but we can make inferences. And based on everything that happened in that fight.... who is more likely to have won? I'd argue Malgus, as not only had he had the edge in almost every beat of the fight up to that point, but he had cut Satele's lightsaber in half was inches away from impaling her heart. Sure, Satele could have been moments away from doing some sort of force blast and blown Malgus sky high.... but it seems more likely that she was in fact in huge danger, likely moments away from being overpowered by Malgus, until Jace Malcolm entered the fray and turned the tide.

 

And you're also right that Satele's force blast is an impressive feat.... however her power to do that alone doesn't mean she can beat Malgus outright. She was only able to summon that amount of power while Malgus was being preoccupied by Jace, and recovering from being blasted by a point blank grenade. Jace didn't give Satele that power, but he did give her the time and space to utilize that power (time and space she didn't/wouldn't have in a straight 1v1 vs. Malgus). If Satele could have used that power unassisted by Jace (who was distracting Malgus), why hadn't she used it up until that point? And if she can't use that against Malgus in a pure 1v1.... we can't use it as proof Satele is better then Malgus in a 1v1 fight.

 

In all the 1v1 matchups we have available to us... while not definitive.... Malgus definitely seemed to have the upper hand. Yes, Satele is powerful, yes they are roughly equal matches, and yes I am a broken record.... But the best pieces of evidence we have still communicate Malgus has the edge.

 

 

I wouldn't say the evidence leans towards Malgus at all considering what the Hope trailer was. Their battle there was, for the most part, a lightsaber duel. Malgus is clearly the better duelist of the two and as such was winning that duel. But when he cut Satele's lightsaber in half, she fell back on her Force powers and subsequently demonstrated her own strength in the closing sequence of the battle. Both her skill with tutaminis and her power with the Force in general would give her a strong advantage. Malgus would have his own strong advantage due to his skill with a lightsaber.

 

Even when she fell back on her force powers, Malgus still had the upper hand, until Jace Malcolm showed up to tip the scales. You can argue Satele has stronger force powers alone, and I wouldn't even necessarily dispute that... But in the 1v1 in the Hope trailer, Malgus and Satele were both using all of their assets (you can't say they weren't without providing some sort of evidence or motivation).... and Malgus came out on top (again, in the 1v1). So, while maybe Satele has stronger force powers.... they weren't/aren't enough to overcome Malgus' superior dueling skills.... as, even with her force powers, Malgus had the upper hand (again, in the 1v1, before Jace showed up).

 

So again, it depends entirely on the circumstances. In a battle like the one in the Hope trailer, without Malcolm's intervention, I'd say Satele has the advantage. Malgus could still win, but there's a lot of room for her to make distance and use the environment to her advantage as she did in the ending sequence. Once she stopped dueling with him and instead played towards her own strength, she'd have the advantage. In a situation like, say, the end of False Emperor? I'd give the advantage to Malgus (assuming a one on one with Satele), because there was much less room to make distance and avoid it becoming a lightsaber duel that Malgus would ultimately win. Her tutaminis would make that interesting but barring her pushing him off, he'd still hold the advantage.

 

It's interesting you say Satele had the advantage in the Hope 1v1 before Malcolm's intervention. I mean, at the end of the day we are just drawing our own separate conclusions from those few seconds of fight choreography.... but it does really seem to me that Satele was fighitng a losing battle: getting stricken, being on the defensive most of the time, getting force pushed into a tree, getting her saber sliced in half and being forced to hold back (erm.... I mean Absorb.... thanks Rodney McNeely ) Malgus' saber for a few seconds.... all the while she's grunting and looking in pain whlie the saber seems to be pushing closer and closer to her chest.... If you look at all of that and say Satele still had the advantage... Well.... okay.

 

I've presented my evidence and it doesn't persuade you, so we'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

In general, it's too close to call without knowing specifics of the battle in question and I'd wager that's by design. They're meant to be the spearheads for their respective sides (until Malgus is ultimately replaced by Darth Marr) so it stands to reason they'd be very evenly matched.

 

Well.... fair enough. They are roughly even matches.... no one is disputing that here, I don' think. Ultimately, you look at inconclusive evidence and say "We simply can't draw a conclusion." And I agree with you. I'm just taking it a step further, and saying "But.... if we HAD to draw a conclusion.... what conclusion would that be?"

 

And my conclusion, if I had to draw one, based on what sparse evidence we have, is that Malgus has the slight edge.

Edited December 28, 2015 by Swissbob

[lukewarcriminal]

Slight Nitpick: Satele wasn't holding Malgus' blade back - she was ABSORBING it and draining his weapon's power cell dry.

only thing she could have absorbed would be a saber to her face in another 3sec.

[IzumiCurtis]

trooper would fall easily, much like a certain dark skinned trooper easily fell to the main dark force user in a certain new Star Wars movie by now we have all seen.

 

 

I'm sure I'm not the only one who doesn't get to watch the movie until this weekend. So no, we have not all seen that spoiler.

[Cortimi]

Could he beat Satele Shan in a fair fight? Is it just his saber skills that make him great or does he have tremendous force power??

He did, more than once. Malgus was the single most powerful Sith in terms of VISION and willpower. More so even than Vitiate, Bane, Revan, anyone. Malgus wanted an Empire that was strong, united and.....Eternal (sound familiar yet?). Vitiate simply wants to destroy everything for himself. There has never been a single Sith in history that was willing to sacrifice themselves openly and completely for the betterment of the Empire, before Malgus. Malgus was unbound by the chains of greed. He was not a slave to blindly following a dogma that served no purpose other than to limit the potential of the Empire. Malgus risk everything, knowing very well he could lose it all, yet still he did it anyways. "Die, or defeat me, either way, the Empire is reborn." THAT is what inspires the loyalty of his fans, and that is exactly why they need to bring him back. The players deserve a better class of character.

 

Also:

Malgus already did in one Flashpoint what is taking Valkorian and the "Alliance Commander" an entire story arc to do.

 

 

#Malgus2016

Edited December 28, 2015 by Cortimi

[adormitul]

He did, more than once. Malgus was the single more powerful Sith in terms of VISION. More so even that Vitiate. Malgus wanted an Empire that was strong, united and.....Eternal (sound familiar yet?). Vitiate simply wants to destroy everything for himself. There has never been a single Sith in history that was willing to sacrifice themselves openly and completely before Malgus. THAT is what inspires the loyalty of his fans, and that is exactly why they need to bring him back.

 

 

#Malgus2016

Well then he should not have antagonized the strongest heroes of the empire and should have convinced them to join him especially knowing how capable they where.

[The-Kaitou-Kid]

You're right in that we don't know what would have happened. Satele could have moved out of the way and defeated Malgus. Maglus could have also been moments away from overpowering Satele, and could have impaled her.

 

We don't know how it would have played out... but we can make inferences. And based on everything that happened in that fight.... who is more likely to have won? I'd argue Malgus, as not only had he had the edge in almost every beat of the fight up to that point, but he had cut Satele's lightsaber in half was inches away from impaling her heart. Sure, Satele could have been moments away from doing some sort of force blast and blown Malgus sky high.... but it seems more likely that she was in fact in huge danger, likely moments away from being overpowered by Malgus, until Jace Malcolm entered the fray and turned the tide.

 

And you're also right that Satele's force blast is an impressive feat.... however her power to do that alone doesn't mean she can beat Malgus outright. She was only able to summon that amount of power while Malgus was being preoccupied by Jace, and recovering from being blasted by a point blank grenade. Jace didn't give Satele that power, but he did give her the time and space to utilize that power (time and space she didn't/wouldn't have in a straight 1v1 vs. Malgus). If Satele could have used that power unassisted by Jace (who was distracting Malgus), why hadn't she used it up until that point? And if she can't use that against Malgus in a pure 1v1.... we can't use it as proof Satele is better then Malgus in a 1v1 fight.

 

In all the 1v1 matchups we have available to us... while not definitive.... Malgus definitely seemed to have the upper hand. Yes, Satele is powerful, yes they are roughly equal matches, and yes I am a broken record.... But the best pieces of evidence we have still communicate Malgus has the edge.

 

Malcolm may have broken up the whole bit with the tutaminis but it's not as if she was charging that Force blast the entire time Malgus was down. If you watch the trailer again, her "preparation" for that Force blast was all of a second after she realized Malgus was back to his feet. She hadn't used it before because she was dueling with him. You have to remember the context of the battle, she wasn't on Alderaan to fight with Malgus. She wasn't even there to fight the Imperials per se, she was there on an investigation and was protecting the Queen of House Panteer after the Imperials invaded. The only reason she was in that battle in the first place was because she sensed Malcolm's squad was on the brink of defeat due to being outnumbered by the Imperials. Satele raced to their aid and engaged Malgus immediately after saving Malcolm and thus went right into a lightsaber duel with him. After the tutaminis bit, her lightsaber was cut in half so a duel was out of the question. Even if Malcolm hadn't interfered, the Force was her only weapon at that point so she was going to do something. Assuming she was just going to sit still while fending off Malgus' lightsaber is selling her a bit short.

 

Even when she fell back on her force powers, Malgus still had the upper hand, until Jace Malcolm showed up to tip the scales. You can argue Satele has stronger force powers alone, and I wouldn't even necessarily dispute that... But in the 1v1 in the Hope trailer, Malgus and Satele were both using all of their assets (you can't say they weren't without providing some sort of evidence or motivation).... and Malgus came out on top (again, in the 1v1). So, while maybe Satele has stronger force powers.... they weren't/aren't enough to overcome Malgus' superior dueling skills.... as, even with her force powers, Malgus had the upper hand (again, in the 1v1, before Jace showed up).

 

It's interesting you say Satele had the advantage in the Hope 1v1 before Malcolm's intervention. I mean, at the end of the day we are just drawing our own separate conclusions from those few seconds of fight choreography.... but it does really seem to me that Satele was fighitng a losing battle: getting stricken, being on the defensive most of the time, getting force pushed into a tree, getting her saber sliced in half and being forced to hold back (erm.... I mean Absorb.... thanks Rodney McNeely ) Malgus' saber for a few seconds.... all the while she's grunting and looking in pain whlie the saber seems to be pushing closer and closer to her chest.... If you look at all of that and say Satele still had the advantage... Well.... okay.

 

I've presented my evidence and it doesn't persuade you, so we'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

I guess we will have to agree to disagree, because I can't see how you can say Malgus "won" that battle. That final blow was caught, so to say he was about to impale her with it is overlooking that fact. She only needed to get out of the way and it would have been entirely negated. Mentioning that she looked in pain is rather off to me as well, moreso just focusing. While she wasn't near finished, she could have been if she made a mistake so she focused on deflecting his attack. Malcolm interfered before she could fully do so, but forcing the reset as she had previously was likely her next move based on the momentum of the battle to that point. I could understand calling it a draw due to Malcolm's interference, but I can't see any justification for saying Malgus won the battle that doesn't overlook the fact that his final blow didn't land. Again, we don't know what would have happened. But to infer that Malgus was about to impale her is also assuming she was going to sit still and let him do it without trying to take advantage of the opening catching his lightsaber produced. He didn't have that battle won when Malcolm interfered. He wasn't losing, but he definitely didn't have it won either.

 

More over, I disagree heavily on the idea that she was on the defensive for most of the time. She engaged first and put Malgus on the defensive. He took over, used his strength to overpower her, she pulled the tree down to reset. They reengage, she puts him on the defensive again until he pushes her to the tree. He jumps to her, she jumps over him, he slashes her lightsaber in half and the ending sequence begins. Malgus still had the advantage in the lightsaber duel, sure, but to say she was on the defensive most of the time is just inaccurate. She was on the offensive plenty during that whole 30 second battle. They both were.

 

Finally, you have to understand that I didn't say Satele had the advantage in what we saw in the Hope trailer. Quite the opposite, most of what we saw with the hope trailer was a lightsaber duel which Malgus had the advantage in. I meant overall, that scenario lends itself to Satele's strengths. Once she was done dueling with him, which was something Malgus was going to have the advantage in, she was going to fall back on her Force techniques and that's what ultimately led to Malgus' defeat. Without Malcolm's interference, she was still going to have to use her Force techniques. She'd already done it once to force a reset via the tree falling, there's no reason to believe she wouldn't have continued to do so if Malcolm hadn't interfered.

 

Well.... fair enough. They are roughly even matches.... no one is disputing that here, I don' think. Ultimately, you look at inconclusive evidence and say "We simply can't draw a conclusion." And I agree with you. I'm just taking it a step further, and saying "But.... if we HAD to draw a conclusion.... what conclusion would that be?"

 

And my conclusion, if I had to draw one, based on what sparse evidence we have, is that Malgus has the slight edge.

 

I'm not saying we can't draw a conclusion. I'm saying we have to be more specific in those conclusions, because there are many situations where the battle would go two vastly different ways. Simply saying "Malgus has the advantage" when Satele would likely have the advantage in a good number of scenarios is misleading. In a lightsaber duel, Malgus probably wins. In a more open battlefield, Satele has the advantage.

 

That's what I mean, and that's why I give Satele the advantage in a scenario like the Hope trailer (again, overall, not what we saw in the Hope trailer specifically), she has plenty of room to make distance, force resets like she did with pulling the tree down until she finds an opening to finish Malgus off. Get them in a smaller space with less to manipulate and Malgus has the upper hand. She wouldn't be able to evade him or force a reset when needed and would be drawn into the kind of duel that Malgus excels in.

[Swissbob]

Malcolm may have broken up the whole bit with the tutaminis but it's not as if she was charging that Force blast the entire time Malgus was down. If you watch the trailer again, her "preparation" for that Force blast was all of a second after she realized Malgus was back to his feet. She hadn't used it before because she was dueling with him. You have to remember the context of the battle, she wasn't on Alderaan to fight with Malgus. She wasn't even there to fight the Imperials per se, she was there on an investigation and was protecting the Queen of House Panteer after the Imperials invaded. The only reason she was in that battle in the first place was because she sensed Malcolm's squad was on the brink of defeat due to being outnumbered by the Imperials. Satele raced to their aid and engaged Malgus immediately after saving Malcolm and thus went right into a lightsaber duel with him. After the tutaminis bit, her lightsaber was cut in half so a duel was out of the question. Even if Malcolm hadn't interfered, the Force was her only weapon at that point so she was going to do something. Assuming she was just going to sit still while fending off Malgus' lightsaber is selling her a bit short.

 

Well, no okay she wasn't charging up the force blast the whole time, but it was while Malgus was down and getting up from my interpretation. But again, this only occured after Jace took Malgus down.... if Satele was really so powerful that she could have just owned Malgus like that with his full attention on her.... why didn't she? She clearly had the intent to beat him thoroughly (I'd call launching him into a mountain thorough), so why didn't she use it before? I think it's much harder to prove a "she was holding back until Jace intervened" line of reason, then it is to prove a "she was unable to until Jace intervened" line of reason.

 

So again, whether or not she was "charging up" is more or less irrelevant, as I think it is still pretty clear that Jace's intervention afforded her the ability, through some way or another, to launch Malgus. If she could have defeated him sooner, she would have, and the fact that she didn't communicates to me that she was not able to defeat Malgus on her own.

 

 

I guess we will have to agree to disagree, because I can't see how you can say Malgus "won" that battle. That final blow was caught, so to say he was about to impale her with it is overlooking that fact. She only needed to get out of the way and it would have been entirely negated. Mentioning that she looked in pain is rather off to me as well, moreso just focusing. While she wasn't near finished, she could have been if she made a mistake so she focused on deflecting his attack. Malcolm interfered before she could fully do so, but forcing the reset as she had previously was likely her next move based on the momentum of the battle to that point. I could understand calling it a draw due to Malcolm's interference, but I can't see any justification for saying Malgus won the battle that doesn't overlook the fact that his final blow didn't land. Again, we don't know what would have happened. But to infer that Malgus was about to impale her is also assuming she was going to sit still and let him do it without trying to take advantage of the opening catching his lightsaber produced. He didn't have that battle won when Malcolm interfered. He wasn't losing, but he definitely didn't have it won either.

 

Well, when I say he "won".... again I don't necessarily mean he out and out defeated her and was about to kill her. What I mean is he got the better of the fight. HE force pushed her into a tree, HE defeated her in the lightsaber duel and sliced her saber in half, HE was towering over her, trying to push past Satele's last ditch defense.

 

Yes, we don't know what would've happened next if Malcolm didn't show up. But it's all about likelihoods. Right before Jace showed up, Satele was worse off then when the fight began. She had been stricken, pushed into the tree, her lightsaber had been destroyed, and she was on her knees doing a last ditch defense against a lightsaber inches from her heart. While she could have turned it around, the tide of the battle was against her, and she was in a worse position then she was when the fight began.

 

If, when the battle began, Satele couldn't defeat Malgus, it stands to reason that it is likely that she couldn't defeat Malgus in this worse position, with her lightsaber destroyed, and in an extreme defensive position, inches away from certain death.

 

And thus, as Malgus ended the 1v1 in a better position then he started, and Satele ended in a worse position then she started, I think it is safe to say Malgus got the better of the fight, and "won."

 

More over, I disagree heavily on the idea that she was on the defensive for most of the time. She engaged first and put Malgus on the defensive. He took over, used his strength to overpower her, she pulled the tree down to reset. They reengage, she puts him on the defensive again until he pushes her to the tree. He jumps to her, she jumps over him, he slashes her lightsaber in half and the ending sequence begins. Malgus still had the advantage in the lightsaber duel, sure, but to say she was on the defensive most of the time is just inaccurate. She was on the offensive plenty during that whole 30 second battle. They both were.

 

Point conceded. While I'd still argue that Malgus had more offense, it's a minor point and for the purposes of time I'll just give this one to you.

 

Finally, you have to understand that I didn't say Satele had the advantage in what we saw in the Hope trailer. Quite the opposite, most of what we saw with the hope trailer was a lightsaber duel which Malgus had the advantage in. I meant overall, that scenario lends itself to Satele's strengths. Once she was done dueling with him, which was something Malgus was going to have the advantage in, she was going to fall back on her Force techniques and that's what ultimately led to Malgus' defeat. Without Malcolm's interference, she was still going to have to use her Force techniques. She'd already done it once to force a reset via the tree falling, there's no reason to believe she wouldn't have continued to do so if Malcolm hadn't interfered.

 

 

Okay, I guess I just misunderstood this bit:

So again, it depends entirely on the circumstances. In a battle like the one in the Hope trailer, without Malcolm's intervention, I'd say Satele has the advantage.

But again your point about how Satele would "fall back on the force" and defeat Malgus raises the question: If Satele could beat Malgus simply through the force, why did she engage in the lightsaber fight at all? Why charge him with a saber rather then just blasting him into the mountain from the get go?

 

To me, the fact that Satele didn't just defeat him with the force in the straight up 1v1 communicates that she can't simply defeat Malgus with the force in a straight up 1v1 conflict. It's only until Malgus is distracted, damaged, and partially incapacitated (via Jace's grenade charge) that Satele can blast him back.

 

To deny this is to assert that Satele was holding back in some way, and then decided to stop holding back.... which to me seems to be a dubious claim based on the evidence we have.

 

Meanwhile, to accept this is to accept that Satele and Malgus were fighting utilizing all of their assets, and, before Jace entered the fray, Satele was in a worse position then she entered it, and Malgus was in a better position, which communicates that, in a straight up 1v1 clash, Malgus has the edge.

 

I'm not saying we can't draw a conclusion. I'm saying we have to be more specific in those conclusions, because there are many situations where the battle would go two vastly different ways. Simply saying "Malgus has the advantage" when Satele would likely have the advantage in a good number of scenarios is misleading. In a lightsaber duel, Malgus probably wins. In a more open battlefield, Satele has the advantage.

 

That's what I mean, and that's why I give Satele the advantage in a scenario like the Hope trailer (again, overall, not what we saw in the Hope trailer specifically), she has plenty of room to make distance, force resets like she did with pulling the tree down until she finds an opening to finish Malgus off. Get them in a smaller space with less to manipulate and Malgus has the upper hand. She wouldn't be able to evade him or force a reset when needed and would be drawn into the kind of duel that Malgus excels in.

 

I don't really buy that I shouldn't say Malgus has a general advantage, and here's why. Fights don't happen in a totally orderly, rock paper scissors way.... where only force is being used, and then only lightsabers are being used. You can say Satele has better Force Powers, and Malgus has better Lightsaber abilities, but at the end of the day, when these two come to fight, you'll see both of them using their force powers and lightsaber skills (ie all of their assets) to win the day. We aren't looking at just who is a better force user, or just who is a better lightsaber duelist, but who, when you add these two things together, is more powerful on aggregate. We can say the sum total of one fighter's parts is greater then another's.... (even if the person with a lesser sum has one part that has a greater value then the other person's corresponding part). Now, if that sentence wasn't totally confusing.... To use math here: (8+4 = 12, while 6+5 = 11, and 12 > 11 even though 5>4).

 

And as we have no reason to believe either Satele or Malgus were holding back in either their force or lightsaber capabilities, and Malgus ended the fight in a better position, while Satele ended the fight in a worse position, (understanding that this may still be a point of contention) I believe we can say with a certain degree of confidence that, with the evidence we have, Malgus has the edge in a true 1v1.

Now, that's not to say the circumstances of a fight don't matter..... of course they do.... and if the circumstances favor force-heavy combatants then yes, Satele could win over Malgus (hell, they're so even Satele might win even if they don't).... but on average..... on AGGREGATE.... I still believe Malgus has the edge.

[branmakmuffin]

He's so powerful, they give us those little grenades to put the wood to him in False Emperor. They don't give us little grenades even for Revan. Therefore, Malgus > Revan. But Satele kicked his butt. So Satele > Malgus > Revan.

[saremun]

Oh finally i got Malgus's set and soon his statue then i will kneel before it and say"I will finish what you started" lol...

[The-Kaitou-Kid]

Well, no okay she wasn't charging up the force blast the whole time, but it was while Malgus was down and getting up from my interpretation. But again, this only occured after Jace took Malgus down.... if Satele was really so powerful that she could have just owned Malgus like that with his full attention on her.... why didn't she? She clearly had the intent to beat him thoroughly (I'd call launching him into a mountain thorough), so why didn't she use it before? I think it's much harder to prove a "she was holding back until Jace intervened" line of reason, then it is to prove a "she was unable to until Jace intervened" line of reason.

 

So again, whether or not she was "charging up" is more or less irrelevant, as I think it is still pretty clear that Jace's intervention afforded her the ability, through some way or another, to launch Malgus. If she could have defeated him sooner, she would have, and the fact that she didn't communicates to me that she was not able to defeat Malgus on her own.

 

I completely disagree. At best she was given a reprieve from the battle, but her attack on Malgus wasn't even began until after he'd stood up (you can see this clearly in the trailer) so I don't buy that she didn't have the ability to do that before Malcolm interfered. I have my own theory on that, will get to it in a moment.

 

Well, when I say he "won".... again I don't necessarily mean he out and out defeated her and was about to kill her. What I mean is he got the better of the fight. HE force pushed her into a tree, HE defeated her in the lightsaber duel and sliced her saber in half, HE was towering over her, trying to push past Satele's last ditch defense.

 

Yes, we don't know what would've happened next if Malcolm didn't show up. But it's all about likelihoods. Right before Jace showed up, Satele was worse off then when the fight began. She had been stricken, pushed into the tree, her lightsaber had been destroyed, and she was on her knees doing a last ditch defense against a lightsaber inches from her heart. While she could have turned it around, the tide of the battle was against her, and she was in a worse position then she was when the fight began.

 

If, when the battle began, Satele couldn't defeat Malgus, it stands to reason that it is likely that she couldn't defeat Malgus in this worse position, with her lightsaber destroyed, and in an extreme defensive position, inches away from certain death.

 

And thus, as Malgus ended the 1v1 in a better position then he started, and Satele ended in a worse position then she started, I think it is safe to say Malgus got the better of the fight, and "won."

 

Won means he was victorious, which he wasn't. The battle wasn't over so you can't say Malgus won the battle, regardless of what his standing was at the end. There's clearly reason to believe that Satele could have survived and turned the tables so Malgus didn't "win" that battle. He was in a better position, sure, but a better position doesn't always lead to victory. The fight was inconclusive if you consider Jace's intervention the end of the battle.

 

You're acting as if being in a worse position means you can only go down but that's not the case. A reset in engagement was very possible given her position there, which could have afforded her the chance to put Malgus in a bad position. We don't know, but it's certainly likely enough to be considered. That alone makes saying Malgus "won" that battle inaccurate in my eyes. Again, if you want to say it was a draw due to Malcolm's intervention, that's fair. We don't know what would have happened afterward so the 1v1 was a draw in this instance. But Malgus didn't "win". Best I'd say is he was getting the better of her (due to their respective positions) prior to the interruption, but the battle, as a 1v1, was inconclusive.

 

Okay, I guess I just misunderstood this bit: But again your point about how Satele would "fall back on the force" and defeat Malgus raises the question: If Satele could beat Malgus simply through the force, why did she engage in the lightsaber fight at all? Why charge him with a saber rather then just blasting him into the mountain from the get go?

 

To me, the fact that Satele didn't just defeat him with the force in the straight up 1v1 communicates that she can't simply defeat Malgus with the force in a straight up 1v1 conflict. It's only until Malgus is distracted, damaged, and partially incapacitated (via Jace's grenade charge) that Satele can blast him back.

 

To deny this is to assert that Satele was holding back in some way, and then decided to stop holding back.... which to me seems to be a dubious claim based on the evidence we have.

 

Meanwhile, to accept this is to accept that Satele and Malgus were fighting utilizing all of their assets, and, before Jace entered the fray, Satele was in a worse position then she entered it, and Malgus was in a better position, which communicates that, in a straight up 1v1 clash, Malgus has the edge.

 

I wouldn't say Satele was holding back at all, I'd say she thought she could win a duel with him and by the time Malcolm intervened, she'd learned she was wrong. Thus why she didn't Force blast him at the start, she thought she had the upperhand in a straight lightsaber duel and engaged. She was wrong. When he got up, she had the opening and with dueling now out of the question, she took the opening and blasted him.

 

You have to remember, this battle lasted 30 seconds. It was barely a skirmish. They had one exchange, reset, another exchange, then Malgus pushed Satele to the tree and set up the ending sequence. So wondering why she didn't fall back on her force powers sooner when the battle only lasted 30 seconds is a bit odd and again overlooking the context of the battle. She was there to rescue Malcolm, not fight Malgus. So she was already kinda jumping into things as it was, the battle with Malgus was no different.

 

I don't really buy that I shouldn't say Malgus has a general advantage, and here's why. Fights don't happen in a totally orderly, rock paper scissors way.... where only force is being used, and then only lightsabers are being used. You can say Satele has better Force Powers, and Malgus has better Lightsaber abilities, but at the end of the day, when these two come to fight, you'll see both of them using their force powers and lightsaber skills (ie all of their assets) to win the day. We aren't looking at just who is a better force user, or just who is a better lightsaber duelist, but who, when you add these two things together, is more powerful on aggregate. We can say the sum total of one fighter's parts is greater then another's.... (even if the person with a lesser sum has one part that has a greater value then the other person's corresponding part). Now, if that sentence wasn't totally confusing.... To use math here: (8+4 = 12, while 6+5 = 11, and 12 > 11 even though 5>4).

 

And as we have no reason to believe either Satele or Malgus were holding back in either their force or lightsaber capabilities, and Malgus ended the fight in a better position, while Satele ended the fight in a worse position, (understanding that this may still be a point of contention) I believe we can say with a certain degree of confidence that, with the evidence we have, Malgus has the edge in a true 1v1.

Now, that's not to say the circumstances of a fight don't matter..... of course they do.... and if the circumstances favor force-heavy combatants then yes, Satele could win over Malgus (hell, they're so even Satele might win even if they don't).... but on average..... on AGGREGATE.... I still believe Malgus has the edge.

 

Of course battles are a mixture of the two, my point there was that if the fight favors a lightsaber duel then Malgus is going to be the likely victor even with Satele's Force attacks in the fray. Same for vice versa. There's always the possibility that one of them can come out on top anyway but in general, Malgus is going to win if the fight boils down to a duel and Satele is going to win if the fight favors Force attacks.

 

I still disagree with your takeaways from the Hope trailer but I don't have issue with saying Malgus wins on average, at least. The wording adds the context that needs to be added there to show that it's close. I feel differently, I'd consider it almost 50/50 (thus the emphasis on the situation/circumstances), but that's much more subjective based on interpretations so I can't fault that opinion.

[Swissbob]

Won means he was victorious, which he wasn't. The battle wasn't over so you can't say Malgus won the battle, regardless of what his standing was at the end. There's clearly reason to believe that Satele could have survived and turned the tables so Malgus didn't "win" that battle. He was in a better position, sure, but a better position doesn't always lead to victory. The fight was inconclusive if you consider Jace's intervention the end of the battle.

 

You're acting as if being in a worse position means you can only go down but that's not the case. A reset in engagement was very possible given her position there, which could have afforded her the chance to put Malgus in a bad position. We don't know, but it's certainly likely enough to be considered. That alone makes saying Malgus "won" that battle inaccurate in my eyes. Again, if you want to say it was a draw due to Malcolm's intervention, that's fair. We don't know what would have happened afterward so the 1v1 was a draw in this instance. But Malgus didn't "win". Best I'd say is he was getting the better of her (due to their respective positions) prior to the interruption, but the battle, as a 1v1, was inconclusive.

 

Again, you're misunderstanding me. I've acknowledged several times over that Satele could have survived. She could have turned the tables on Malgus. But because we don't know what would have happened, we need to use the evidence to see what is more likely to have happened. And it seems more likely that Malgus, who entered an even fight and came out on top and in a better situation, would continue to make progress, then it seems likely Satele, who entered an even fight and came out worse off, would have suddenly turned the tables and won from a worse position than she initially started.

 

In other words, if you enter an even fight, get your lightsaber chopped in half, and are put in the extreme defensive, there's more reason to believe something extraordinary (her summoning some sort of power she didn't have or couldn't use before to beat Malgus) won't happen, and the tide of the battle, which is in Malgus' favor, will remain the same.

 

And besides.... it's mostly irrelevant what are predictions of what could have happened when we looked at what actually did happen in the 1v1.... And what did happen was Malgus getting the better of Satele, getting more significant offensive strikes in, slicing her saber in half, and putting her on the extreme defensive at the end. When I say Malgus "won," I don't mean "he conclusively defeated Satele once and for all, clearly proving he is totally superior to her," rather, this is what I mean:

 

The fight merely played out in Malgus' favor, and as this is the single best, most even fight, and most conclusive piece of data we have (even though it is itself relatively inconclusive), while we can't be certain, we can use this 1v1 fight, which played out in Malgus' favor, to say that Malgus has a slight edge in a 1v1 fight.

 

At the end of the day, I think we're in agreement that, if you look solely at the 1v1 fight, Malgus got the better of it (As you've acknowledged both that Malgus was in a better position at the end of it, Satele was in a worse position). And while yes, Satele could have turned things around, we're just guessing at what would happen next (as Malgus also could have furthered his advantage and actually killed or otherwise totally defeated her), and really we should just stick to the empirical data, which is what actually happened. And what actually happened was that Malgus had the better of it.

 

And thus, I look at the 1v1 fight that Malgus had the edge in, and use that 1v1 fight that Malgus had the edge to make the claim that Malgus has the edge in a 1v1 fight.

 

Is that 30 second fight that was interrupted inconclusive? Hell yes it is. But it is our only real piece of empirical evidence, and so, when forced to make a conclusion, I'm inclined to use it, and it says that in a 1v1, Malgus has the edge, however slight that edge may be.

 

 

 

I wouldn't say Satele was holding back at all, I'd say she thought she could win a duel with him and by the time Malcolm intervened, she'd learned she was wrong. Thus why she didn't Force blast him at the start, she thought she had the upperhand in a straight lightsaber duel and engaged. She was wrong. When he got up, she had the opening and with dueling now out of the question, she took the opening and blasted him.

 

You have to remember, this battle lasted 30 seconds. It was barely a skirmish. They had one exchange, reset, another exchange, then Malgus pushed Satele to the tree and set up the ending sequence. So wondering why she didn't fall back on her force powers sooner when the battle only lasted 30 seconds is a bit odd and again overlooking the context of the battle. She was there to rescue Malcolm, not fight Malgus. So she was already kinda jumping into things as it was, the battle with Malgus was no different.

 

Yes, it was 30 seconds, and Malgus still managed to strike her several times, disarm her and destroy her lightsaber, and pin her in an ultra defensive position.

 

Again, I don't buy this. Satele would know the extent of her power. If she knew that at any second she could have mega force blasted him 100 yards into a mountain, and that her lightsaber skills are inferior to her force abilities, why engage in a duel at all? If Satele could blast an undistracted, uninjured, unweakened, fully focused Malgus into the side of the mountain from the get go.... why wouldn't she? Because she wants to win specifically with her lightsaber? Why? Even if she thought she could win with just her saber alone, why put herself in more danger then necessary, use up more of her time then necessary, and just overall be less effective? Why not just blast him sky high in the opening seconds, and then move on to fight more Sith/help Jace even more?

 

You say she isn't holding back, but if she could do that force blast from the very beginning, and didn't, then yes, she is holding back her power. How can you say otherwise? She has the power to blast Malgus into the rocks, which is greater then her power in lightsaber combat to defeat Malgus (she would be aware of this), and you're saying she elected not to use her greater power, and yet she is also not holding back? How does that work?

 

See, this is why I do not buy the "she was holding back her force powers / wanted to use her lightsaber" argument. There's just no evidence for this. She wants to beat Malgus (why wouldn't she?), so naturally she is going to use everything at her disposal, force powers included. The fact that she did end up blasting Malgus with the force but only after he had been distracted, injured, and weakened, communicates not that "Oh, she was just holding back her force power until that specific time", but rather the more likely and defend-able position: She simply couldn't launch Malgus back until he was weakened and distracted by Jace.

 

Unless you can evidence some sort of change in Satele's motivations (ie She didn't want to force blast him and defeat him, but now she does want to), it seems the simpler and more readily apparent conclusion that she was, from the get-go, using the fullest extent of her power (ie common sense) to defeat Malgus, and despite it all, Malgus still had the edge, communicating to me that, using what evidence we have, in a general 1v1, Malgus has the edge.

 

Of course battles are a mixture of the two, my point there was that if the fight favors a lightsaber duel then Malgus is going to be the likely victor even with Satele's Force attacks in the fray. Same for vice versa. There's always the possibility that one of them can come out on top anyway but in general, Malgus is going to win if the fight boils down to a duel and Satele is going to win if the fight favors Force attacks.

 

I see no problem agreeing with this (as I think I already have).

 

I still disagree with your takeaways from the Hope trailer but I don't have issue with saying Malgus wins on average, at least. The wording adds the context that needs to be added there to show that it's close. I feel differently, I'd consider it almost 50/50 (thus the emphasis on the situation/circumstances), but that's much more subjective based on interpretations so I can't fault that opinion.

 

Yeah, I mean at the end of the day we're in agreement about all the big picture stuff, and arguing meticulous margins (eg is it 50/50 or 55/45) based on 30 seconds of fight choreography.

Edited December 29, 2015 by Swissbob

[LordDelectus]

It's an interesting question.... it's hard to say for sure. I'd say they're probably all roughly equal. Though I'll give you my take if I had to pick a victor.

 

(potential spoilers below)

 

Malgus vs. Satele

I would say Malgus has the edge in this one. We've already seen two matchups between them, and Malgus came on top in both 1v1's (He beats her in "Return", but she is saved by her master, and he beats her in "Hope" but she's saved by Jace Malcolm). In addition to this, Malgus just has more feats in general.... he rose to the near top of the Sith Empire and defeated many powerful Sith and Jedi, more then Satele did, and was only defeated by a strike team of four of SWTOR's PC's. I mean, Satele has some powerful abilities (such as Battle Meditation), so I wouldn't exactly say Malgus is necessarily stronger in the force then Satele, but in a straight up duel, with Malgus' brute strength and dueling capabilities.... I'd say Malgus has the edge (as we saw in the previously mentioned fights).

 

Malgus vs. Marr

This one is harder to determine.... though I'd probably go with Marr actually. Reason being he's the defacto leader of the Empire.... while not actually Emperor, he has the most authority and power in the Dark Council, and by extension the entire Empire. In an Empire whose leadership structure is based almost solely around strength (where straight up murdering your boss is a perfectly valid way to take his job), it stands to reason Marr is the most powerful Sith (save Vitiate, of course) in the Empire, and that includes Malgus... As if anyone (Malgus included) was stronger, they'd be the leader, not Marr. Before Malgus goes renegade, Marr is technically his superior, which to me communicates that Marr is probably stronger. That said, Malgus does have more feats then Marr, so who knows..... my hunch says Marr though.

 

I totally agree on Marr. Power and strength are tantamount in the Empire, deference to position is never done out of esteem. Everyone wants more power, that is the definition of the Sith.

 

Anybody else on the Council? Debatable. They may all have ascended through trickery and schemes and maintain power that way. They all may just be smarter than Malgus. Marr is a different story, while he understands the Council, he very clearly shows contempt for the games Sith play. The rest of the Council treat him with respect. My guess is "respect" in the Empire is just a less degrading way of saying "fear". Most likely, Marr demonstrated incredible talent with the saber and the force in battle, has been challenged a number of times and decimates his opponents. You will note that nobody actually threatens or talks back to Marr...or even stand up for themselves. Even the bellicose Ravage is shut down by Marr.

[samhinch]

Darth Malgus is weak sauce.

[Ghisallo]

Ye

 

 

And yes, not everyone's strength in SWTOR is directly equivalent to their political power, BUT, in the Sith Empire, where strength so often leads to political power, and having political power while there are those below you who have more strength so often leads to your immediate death..... I think it is a pretty safe assertion that strength has a moderate direct correlation with political power with the Sith. Thus, where feats of strength fall short, we can look at political power to get a general metric of a Sith's strength (taking in context of course).... and in that regard, Marr wins over Malgus.

 

Again, these two are a pretty even match. But, if we use all of the evidence we have, I think there is a slight favor for Marr.

 

I think you may be missing my point. Marr could simply have been powerful enough to get on the Dark Council but beyond that we can say nothing. Why? Because of what you note, his political power.

 

He could be the weakest of all the Darths for all we know and still be the most influential. When the Military is your's to control as well as Isotobe 5 AND, perhaps most importantly, the clear knowledge on everyone else's part that he is the one Darth you don't need to worry about stabbing you in the back, this will give you great power and influence that belies your personal power in the force.

[ConVallian]

It's implied that Darth Marr is just as if not more powerful as the PC, and depending how you play the game, the PC can beat Malgus by himself.

I believe in a Fight as even as Marr v Malgus. calmer mind would prevail, WHen Malgus realizes he cant overpower Marr he would get frustrated angry while Marr will stay deadly calm and eventually prevail

[Swissbob]

I think you may be missing my point. Marr could simply have been powerful enough to get on the Dark Council but beyond that we can say nothing. Why? Because of what you note, his political power.

 

He could be the weakest of all the Darths for all we know and still be the most influential. When the Military is your's to control as well as Isotobe 5 AND, perhaps most importantly, the clear knowledge on everyone else's part that he is the one Darth you don't need to worry about stabbing you in the back, this will give you great power and influence that belies your personal power in the force.

 

Well, yes he could be the weakest of all the Darths. The fact is we don't really know the exact extent of each of these force user's power, so we have go with our best guesses.

 

And what is more likely? That the Sith who has risen to the very top of the Empire, has had one of the longest tenure's on the Dark Council, has authority over the other Councillors, and became the defacto leader of the Sith Empire for several years, is more or less powerful then other Sith in the Empire (who are his political underlings)?

 

You could make a case for why he is less powerful, using the military to prevent coups against him and through elaborate string pulling he's been able to constantly cover his own *** against stronger Sith for several decades etc. .... but doesn't it seem the most simple and likely answer (Occam's Razor) that he is just more powerful then them (especially considering Marr hates backstabbing and sith infighting, and thus wouldn't be one to play elaborate political games)?

 

Keep in mind, several Dark Councillor's in Spheres that have direct control over the military are challenged and murdered by their underlings all the time: Darth Vengean, Darth Baras, Darth Arkous etc. The military didn't save them from being murdered by stronger Sith who were politically below them. Most Dark Councillors, no matter what sphere they are in, have had their time in the office ended by being straight up murdered by Sith (sometimes Jedi).... So it stands to reason Marr is no different. Marr is vulnerable to other Sith besting him and taking his position as DE FACTO EMPEROR (a position every Sith in the Empire would be salivating over)..... the fact is he is powerful enough to be on the Dark Council for 40 years.... a feat rare even for those Dark Councillors who control the military.

 

It's just hard for me to believe, in the Sith world of Survival and Rule of the Fittest, that the Sith with the most political power in the entire Empire (save Vitiate) for several decades has had more powerful Sith, who could murder Marr in straight up fight, take his orders and serve his commands, without them ousting him like countless other Dark Councillor's (some who had their share of control of the military) have been time and time again throughout the decades Marr has been in charge.

Why should we assume Marr's survival in the Sith would of Survival and Rule of the Fittest is an anomaly (where he rules despite not being the strongest) rather then a normality (he rules because he is strongest)?

[ConVallian]

Well, yes he could be the weakest of all the Darths. The fact is we don't really know the exact extent of each of these force user's power, so we have go with our best guesses.

 

And what is more likely? That the Sith who has risen to the very top of the Empire, has had one of the longest tenure's on the Dark Council, has authority over the other Councillors, and became the defacto leader of the Sith Empire for several years, is more or less powerful then other Sith in the Empire (who are his political underlings)?

 

You could make a case for why he is less powerful, using the military to prevent coups against him and through elaborate string pulling he's been able to constantly cover his own *** against stronger Sith for several decades etc. .... but doesn't it seem the most simple and likely answer (Occam's Razor) that he is just more powerful then them (especially considering Marr hates backstabbing and sith infighting, and thus wouldn't be one to play elaborate political games)?

 

Keep in mind, several Dark Councillor's in Spheres that have direct control over the military are challenged and murdered by their underlings all the time: Darth Vengean, Darth Baras, Darth Arkous etc. The military didn't save them from being murdered by stronger Sith who were politically below them. Most Dark Councillors, no matter what sphere they are in, have had their time in the office ended by being straight up murdered by Sith (sometimes Jedi).... So it stands to reason Marr is no different. Marr is vulnerable to other Sith besting him and taking his position as DE FACTO EMPEROR (a position every Sith in the Empire would be salivating over)..... the fact is he is powerful enough to be on the Dark Council for 40 years.... a feat rare even for those Dark Councillors who control the military.

 

It's just hard for me to believe, in the Sith world of Survival and Rule of the Fittest, that the Sith with the most political power in the entire Empire (save Vitiate) for several decades has had more powerful Sith, who could murder Marr in straight up fight, take his orders and serve his commands, without them ousting him like countless other Dark Councillor's (some who had their share of control of the military) have been time and time again throughout the decades Marr has been in charge.

Why should we assume Marr's survival in the Sith would of Survival and Rule of the Fittest is an anomaly (where he rules despite not being the strongest) rather then a normality (he rules because he is strongest)?

 

The codex in-game says

"With his humanity long forgotten and his face unseen, Marr's inner thoughts are impossible to determine. But his desire to leave a strong Empire behind him is unquestioned, and his abilities are second to none."

―Darth Marr Codex Entry (Star Wars: The Old Republic)

I take it this was during the war before the Coruscant treaty. Second to none would include Malgus , granted this ten years ago in game time so how much the two has improved is not clear

Plus he man handled a Darth in the council chamber without really trying. In fact he didnt try he brought her to the brink of death as easy as he wouldve been taking a stroll or something.

As far as saber combat goes where Malgus is pure offense Marr is primarily defense. I do not think Malgus could break his defense before his frustration hit and started fighting using his tunnel vision , and i believe Marr would out maneuver him and land a kill blow

[Swissbob]

The codex in-game says

"With his humanity long forgotten and his face unseen, Marr's inner thoughts are impossible to determine. But his desire to leave a strong Empire behind him is unquestioned, and his abilities are second to none."

―Darth Marr Codex Entry (Star Wars: The Old Republic)

 

Well, that's good enough for me.

 

(I mean, you could try to explain it away as just a figure of speech, and not literally him being the best.... though on balance it is evidence that Marr really is the most powerful in the Empire)

[ConVallian]

Well, that's good enough for me.

 

(I mean, you could try to explain it away as just a figure of speech, and not literally him being the best.... though on balance it is evidence that Marr really is the most powerful in the Empire)

 

im not saying he's The most powerful, but to earn a seat on the council in your early 20s, and keep the seat for almost 2 decades, when most sith only last a few months to a few years is most impressive

[adormitul]

im not saying he's The most powerful, but to earn a seat on the council in your early 20s, and keep the seat for almost 2 decades, when most sith only last a few months to a few years is most impressive

 

You know who was longer on the council then him Darth Vowrawn so does that mean that Darth Vowrawn was the strongest dark council member?

[Leaveshill]

im not saying he's The most powerful, but to earn a seat on the council in your early 20s, and keep the seat for almost 2 decades, when most sith only last a few months to a few years is most impressive

 

You mean for four decades? Because he kept it for around 40 years

[ConVallian]

You know who was longer on the council then him Darth Vowrawn so does that mean that Darth Vowrawn was the strongest dark council member?

 

in combat no. Vowran's pretty weak in combat

[Swissbob]

You know who was longer on the council then him Darth Vowrawn so does that mean that Darth Vowrawn was the strongest dark council member?

 

Where does it say Vowrawn was on the Dark Council longer then Marr? He's older then Marr, but he wasn't on the council longer then Marr, I don't think.

 

Vowrawn's entry in the SWTOR Encyclopedia:

Darth Vowrawn

Age: 76

....Vowrawn commands respect for holding his Dark Council seat for decades, a rare feat in the world of backstabbing and treachery that define Sith politics.

 

Darth Marr's:

Darth Marr:

Age: 62

Warlord and master of the dark side, Darth Marr is the most senior of the Dark Council. When Marr speaks, he commands the attention of the entire Dark Council with intimidating authority and stern wisdom.

 

Unless you have another source, all we know is Vowrawn has served for some amount (2? 3?) of decades. We know Marr has served for over 4 decades, and is the "most senior" member of the Dark Council. Taking into account how Vowrawn is in fact older then Marr, "most senior" must mean that Marr has served longer on the Dark Council then any other concurrent member, Vowrawn included.

 

And besides, all surviving on the Dark Council likely means is that you're more powerful then those who aren't on the Council.... it doesn't necessarily mean you're stronger then other Sith on the Councill who have had the seat for less time. And finally, Marr has the most authority out of everyone on the Council, being the de facto leader of the Empire, so even if Vowrawn did serve longer on the council then Marr, it's still likely Marr is more powerful, because if Vowrawn was more powerful then Marr, he'd likely be the leader of the Council and by extension the Empire, not Marr.

Edited December 30, 2015 by Swissbob

[adormitul]

Is it not because Marr controlled the military and well does anybody wanna mess with someone who controls the military meaning having millions of people that can attack and destroy you.

But he is capable none the less I mean he killed a knight of Zaakul in seconds and those are trained force users.