ConVallian Posted December 20, 2015 Share Posted December 20, 2015 Two Kel Dor Jedi Council Members. 1v1 The Warrior Scholar vs The Jedi General Arena is the Jungles of Felucia. Incarnations will be Plo Koon from the Clone Wars era and Gnost-dural from the annihilation novel. You fine folks do the debate. Please avoid harsh comments. P.S. before you guys just decide Plo Koon the victor please take note of Gnost-Durals abilities as well while debating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted December 20, 2015 Share Posted December 20, 2015 Interesting match...I don't know **** about Dural tho. So if someone makes an argument for him I can form a counter, otherwise... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ConVallian Posted December 20, 2015 Author Share Posted December 20, 2015 Interesting match...I don't know **** about Dural tho. So if someone makes an argument for him I can form a counter, otherwise... I'll go a few rounds with ya if you want, how do we want to do this.combt skills, force power or speed first? or all at once ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted December 20, 2015 Share Posted December 20, 2015 I'll go a few rounds with ya if you want, how do we want to do this.combt skills, force power or speed first? or all at once ? All at once, you can copy the formating from my debate with Padster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ConVallian Posted December 20, 2015 Author Share Posted December 20, 2015 Ok here it goes. I know the Annihilation Gnost Dural is not his prime i just chose it because the novel itself is the only source for his combat feats, How much stronger he was in his youth would be pure speculation so I'll avoid that. Ok I'll start with Strength in the Force and how adept he is at applying it to combat . Telekinesis. Ok this part will be pretty short as most of his TK feats suggest his power is common for Jedi Masters of his tier. He is able to throw around heavily armored soldiers with no effort but so can every jedi master. The most impressive TK feats are when he fought multiple sith at one time. During his fight with two of Darth Karrid's apprentices while fending them off with his saber he sent force wave powerful enough send both flying and he used little to no effort in breaking their force wall. But notably his speed,precision and strength behind his Saber throws are more impressive. In the novel he throws his saber sidearm after he hurls 4 heavily armored guards down the corridor and before any of them hit the ground, his saber throw sliced all of them. (not to impressive but still pretty quick). But the strength behind his throws are pretty impressive. He threw his lightsaber in Darth Karrids direction, sending it end-over-end on a direct line with his target. The Falleen parried the attack with her own blade, though she was force to take a step back to absorb the impact. ―Star Wars: Old Republic Annihilation (Page 238) It was strong enough push back a sith lord when she parried it. Just by throwing a weapon that only has weight in the hilt. But these things are expected of jedi master who spent years training so it doesnt really set him apart fro Plo at all. His speed was more impressive than his TK feats. Gnost-Dural was little more than a blur of motion and movement as he raced through the corridors of Reaver Station. The imperial soldiers he flew past reacted with a mix of surprise, curiosity, and alarm, but he came and went so fast that none of them fully realized what had happened. Left in his wake, they exchanged a few puzzled glances with their friends, then laughed off the odd but seemingly harmless encounter as their minds convinced them that the person who'd just ran past couldn't possible have been moving that fast. ―Star Wars: Old Republic Annihilation (Pages 227-228 From this quote Gnost-Dural is atleast 4 strikes per second but I would put him at 5 or 6 because this took place in LESS than a second. The apprentice blocked two overhand strikes, but then overreacted when the Kel Dor feigned a third, leaving himself vulnerable down low. The Jedi turned his wrist and spun to his left, reversing the direction of the blade too quickly for the apprentice to recover, and removed him from the battle with a deep slash across the midsection that nearly severed the man in two. The entire sequence took less than a second... ―Star Wars: Old Republic Annihilation (Page 318) Lastly while blind he was able to use the force to see by having the force "paint a picture" of his surroundings. he was also able to use the force to tell time( not helpful in combat but still a useful force ability not everyone has) Lightsaber Skills. Now this is where gnost dural excels at he was known as one of the best single duelists in the jedi order of his day. Gnost-Dural is a highly skilled master of lightsaber combat and had skill in all seven forms of lightsaber combat. He was a master of Soresu, Niman, Juyo, and Djem So, and was skilled in all the other forms of lightsaber combat. His typical response in combat was to open up with Niman and from their he would switch styles as needed to take full advantage of the changing conditions of combat. As a master skilled in all seven forms he was highly skilled in spotting weaknesses in his opponents style and taking appropriate action to take full advantage of them. Overall he is an absolute master of lightsaber combat and a very high caliber opponent. He had a tactile mind while in combat and his knowledge of all 7 forms allowed him to strategize his approach to accommodate his opponents style and counter it. He fought both of Darth Karrids apprentices (makashi users) and Darth Karrid (Niman user)herself fending them all off while instantly changing in and out of djem so soresu and niman and throwing them off with his speed perception and strength. He fought off all 3 dark side users on the Ascendant Spear( a dark side nexus) A ship that was infused with Sith Alchemy. He was then taken prisoner after a dozen imperial soldiers showed up and he was shot multiple times with stun bolts falling unconscious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ConVallian Posted December 20, 2015 Author Share Posted December 20, 2015 Gnost-Durals next two fights take place after he was tortured for hours and driven to the brink of insanity. Although he did have time to spend in reflective meditation, mending the damage he could, I doubt he repaired all of the damage. Although I was originally under the impression that his torture was purely mental, it does suggest in this next quote that his body was also damaged as well. Gnost-Dural had spent the hours since Darth Karrids last visit in quiet, reflective meditation. As per the Sith Lord's instructions, the interrogators had spared him more torture with Mekhis's infernal machine. The respite had allowed the Jedi to calm and focus his mind, subtly drawing on the Force to refresh and restore his ravaged body and spirit. ―Star Wars: Old Republic Annihilation (Page 305) He also fought off a fresh apprentice after being tortured witthout his goggles and mask for over 10 hours extremely exhausted and weak he still fought the sith off. and killed her in straight up lightsaber duel. In this next fight Gnost-Dural is fighting one of the apprentices to Darth Karrid and two Sith Lords, Lord Quux and Lord Ordez, who swore fealty to Darth Karrid. He killed the apprentice and held off the other 2 sith lords until the Ascendant Spear was on the brink of destruction and the sith fled. He fought a total of 4 sith 2 apprentices and 2 Lords almost immediatly after being freed from his prison after being tortured for 10 hours aboard a dark side nexus that is the Ascendant Spear and managed to kill 2 of them. Here is a couple quotes regarding the Ascendant spear The power of the dark side all around him was impossible to ignore; it seeped from the very walls of the Ascendant Spear, a twisted creation of a brilliant yet diseased mind. ―Star Wars: Old Republic Annihilation (Page 305) He could feel evil and corruption enveloping him, growing steadily stronger during his decent, and he knew it wasn't because of his former Padawans presence. When Darth Mekhis had created the Ascendant Spear, she'd use a combination of experimental technology and Sith alchemy to imbue the ship itself with the energies of the dark side. By the time Gnost-Dural stepped into the turbolift that would take him to the black-heart of the vessel, he was feeling physically nauseated from the effects. ―Star Wars: Old Republic Annihilation (Page 230) Being able to fight at all is impressive in and of itself after all he went through let alone 2 apprentices and 2 sith lords at once and managed to kill 2 and fend off the others. There is a start i highly recommend the annihilation novel it is one of my favorites Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ConVallian Posted December 20, 2015 Author Share Posted December 20, 2015 (edited) Fighting 4 sith after hours of torture on a DS nexus is little more impressive then fending off Ventress with a broken arm if you ask me:D And his ability to perform Soresu almost perfectly would be a great counter to Plo Koon's Djem so. I'd say his Soresu mastery is just about one level down from Kenobi who was a soresu specialist Edited December 20, 2015 by ConVallian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ConVallian Posted December 20, 2015 Author Share Posted December 20, 2015 http://www.comicvine.com/profile/wildbantha88/blog/gnost-durals-lightsaber-skills-styles/100861/ If you like reading this has a more in depth look at Gnost Dural's lightsaber skills Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 You could at least put the quotes in separate pragraphs, or even better put them in italic, it's pretty ard to read. I'll make a counter eventaully, but I'm busy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ConVallian Posted December 22, 2015 Author Share Posted December 22, 2015 You could at least put the quotes in separate pragraphs, or even better put them in italic, it's pretty ard to read. I'll make a counter eventaully, but I'm busy np, i had thought when i was typing it i had put the quotes in bold lettering but i mustve not gone through:confused: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 (edited) Finally managed to scrap something together. Gotta be careful though, I don't want Padster to use my own argument against me Telekinesis. Ok this part will be pretty short as most of his TK feats suggest his power is common for Jedi Masters of his tier. He is able to throw around heavily armored soldiers with no effort but so can every jedi master. The most impressive TK feats are when he fought multiple sith at one time. During his fight with two of Darth Karrid's apprentices while fending them off with his saber he sent force wave powerful enough send both flying and he used little to no effort in breaking their force wall. Good feat, sadly Force Pushing someone doesn't require to break through their force defenses. There is no passive defense against push, only active. A few examples: http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111137054/4985585-force+defense+anakin+obi-wan.gif http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11113/111137054/4985588-force+defense.gif http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11113/111137054/4304218-obi-wan+anakin+force.gif http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111178634/4313965-yoda+force+pushes+sidious.gif http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11117/111178634/4349202-tcw+ventress+tks+anakin+2.gif Yoda pushing Darth *********** Sidious and Ventress successfully pushing Anakin when she failed with Luminara shows that you have to actively defend against it, if you don't then you are sent flying like any inanimate object would. The only power indicator in force pushes if you overwhelm an active defense, or how much damage you can inflict with your push. Staggering? Flooring? KOing? Killing? As far as magnitude goes Plo could collapse tunnels, move Pod Hunters, and OHK Spider Droids with his TK. Plo could also use TK without visual contact: Koon could employ the Force Push ability without needing to face his target. —Star Wars: The New Essential Guide to Characters He also has better force accolade: Plo Koon is a member of the Jedi High Council and a Jedi General in the Clone Wars. Koon is one of the most powerful Jedi ever, with awesome fighting ability, strong telekinetic powers and superb piloting skills. —Star Wars: Character Encyclopedia But notably his speed,precision and strength behind his Saber throws are more impressive. In the novel he throws his saber sidearm after he hurls 4 heavily armored guards down the corridor and before any of them hit the ground, his saber throw sliced all of them. (not to impressive but still pretty quick). But the strength behind his throws are pretty impressive. He threw his lightsaber in Darth Karrids direction, sending it end-over-end on a direct line with his target. The Falleen parried the attack with her own blade, though she was force to take a step back to absorb the impact. ―Star Wars: Old Republic Annihilation (Page 238) It was strong enough push back a sith lord when she parried it. Just by throwing a weapon that only has weight in the hilt. But these things are expected of jedi master who spent years training so it doesnt really set him apart fro Plo at all. Yes, impressive. But if you think about Kao staggering Malgus, who is a physical machine not like Karrid, it's most likely not beyond Plo as you said. His speed was more impressive than his TK feats. Gnost-Dural was little more than a blur of motion and movement as he raced through the corridors of Reaver Station. The imperial soldiers he flew past reacted with a mix of surprise, curiosity, and alarm, but he came and went so fast that none of them fully realized what had happened. Left in his wake, they exchanged a few puzzled glances with their friends, then laughed off the odd but seemingly harmless encounter as their minds convinced them that the person who'd just ran past couldn't possible have been moving that fast. ―Star Wars: Old Republic Annihilation (Pages 227-228 Blur speed is pretty generic tbh. There are plenty of force users below Plo who has blur feats, such as TPM Obi-Wan Kenobi, Aayla Secura, Luminara Unduli, Qui-Gon Jinn, Ki-Adi-Mundi, Sidious (just kidding). From this quote Gnost-Dural is atleast 4 strikes per second but I would put him at 5 or 6 because this took place in LESS than a second. The apprentice blocked two overhand strikes, but then overreacted when the Kel Dor feigned a third, leaving himself vulnerable down low. The Jedi turned his wrist and spun to his left, reversing the direction of the blade too quickly for the apprentice to recover, and removed him from the battle with a deep slash across the midsection that nearly severed the man in two. The entire sequence took less than a second... ―Star Wars: Old Republic Annihilation (Page 318) Pretty impressive, not sure if it's beyond Plo though. Mace Windu a few months after AotC could hit Kar Vastor 6 times before he could even react: Standing toe to toe, the top of Mace's head barely came to the level of Vastor's chin, and you could have tucked Mace's whole thick-muscled upper body inside Vastor's chest with room to spare. And even hurt, lurching drunkenly, Vaster still could whip his arms in blindingly fast raking slaps at Mace's head and wounded neck. But where Vastor's speed was blinding, Mace's was invisible. Not one of those slaps connected. Before Vastor could even focus his eyes, Mace had hit him six times. ―Shatterpoint Now before you bring up the obvious, I'm aware that Mace is superior to Plo, but this wasn't a prime Windu. He was pre-prime, he was on a dark side nexus, and he was overall in a pretty bad shape: Mace couldn't win such a battle on his best day, and this day was far from his best: he was exhausted, badly wounded, and heartsick. —Shatterpoint I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that a healthy RotS Plo Koon on neutral ground could replicate that. Lightsaber Skills. Now this is where gnost dural excels at he was known as one of the best single duelists in the jedi order of his day. Gnost-Dural is a highly skilled master of lightsaber combat and had skill in all seven forms of lightsaber combat. He was a master of Soresu, Niman, Juyo, and Djem So, and was skilled in all the other forms of lightsaber combat. While it's never a bad thing to be a well rounded duelist, mastering several forms doesn't automatically makes one better. Case in point poor old Cin Drallig, the most famous fodder, mastered all 7 forms yet Dooku with his single form would **** all over him. Plo Koon's Djem So and Shien was unrivaled in his era...except for the Chosen One of course. His typical response in combat was to open up with Niman and from their he would switch styles as needed to take full advantage of the changing conditions of combat. As a master skilled in all seven forms he was highly skilled in spotting weaknesses in his opponents style and taking appropriate action to take full advantage of them. Overall he is an absolute master of lightsaber combat and a very high caliber opponent. He had a tactile mind while in combat and his knowledge of all 7 forms allowed him to strategize his approach to accommodate his opponents style and counter it. He fought both of Darth Karrids apprentices (makashi users) and Darth Karrid (Niman user)herself fending them all off while instantly changing in and out of djem so soresu and niman and throwing them off with his speed perception and strength. He fought off all 3 dark side users on the Ascendant Spear( a dark side nexus) A ship that was infused with Sith Alchemy. He was then taken prisoner after a dozen imperial soldiers showed up and he was shot multiple times with stun bolts falling unconscious. While Gnost could certainly adapt to Djem So, it doesn't have a hard counter, the closest thing to that would be Ataru, but Gnost didn't master that form. Also Plo doesn't seem to use a textbook Djem So. As for Gnost's tactical mind. I bet Plo isn't lacking there either: One of the most militaristic and dangerous of the Jedi insurgents, Plo Koon served on the Jedi Council for more than 10 years. ―Star Wars Insider 87 Like Rancisis, Koon had a keen mind for military strategy. —Star Wars: Cloak of Deception Plo Koon is a senior member of the Jedi Council. This stern Jedi Master is known for making fast decisions. Plo's ability to act quickly makes him both a fierce warrior and a fearsome starship pilot. —Star Wars: Mysteries of the Jedi While his nexus feat is impressive, is there any indicator that he was actually winning that encounter? Also how good those apprentices were? Not sure if they are above fodder, but definitely not good enough to overcome Makashi's inherent weakness to Djem So. As for Karrid, while she is a Darth she also uses Niman, which is a pretty ***** form. No wonder the majority of jedi who died in the First Battle of Genosis were all using Niman. They actually became pretty rare during the Clone Wars. Not to mention that Gnost trained Karrid, which gives him a familiarity that helps in a fight, just like it helped Kenobi beat Anakin on Mustafar, or Sora Bulq to contend with Mace Windu. Gnost-Durals next two fights take place after he was tortured for hours and driven to the brink of insanity. Although he did have time to spend in reflective meditation, mending the damage he could, I doubt he repaired all of the damage. Although I was originally under the impression that his torture was purely mental, it does suggest in this next quote that his body was also damaged as well. Gnost-Dural had spent the hours since Darth Karrids last visit in quiet, reflective meditation. As per the Sith Lord's instructions, the interrogators had spared him more torture with Mekhis's infernal machine. The respite had allowed the Jedi to calm and focus his mind, subtly drawing on the Force to refresh and restore his ravaged body and spirit. ―Star Wars: Old Republic Annihilation (Page 305) He also fought off a fresh apprentice after being tortured witthout his goggles and mask for over 10 hours extremely exhausted and weak he still fought the sith off. and killed her in straight up lightsaber duel. In this next fight Gnost-Dural is fighting one of the apprentices to Darth Karrid and two Sith Lords, Lord Quux and Lord Ordez, who swore fealty to Darth Karrid. He killed the apprentice and held off the other 2 sith lords until the Ascendant Spear was on the brink of destruction and the sith fled. He fought a total of 4 sith 2 apprentices and 2 Lords almost immediatly after being freed from his prison after being tortured for 10 hours aboard a dark side nexus that is the Ascendant Spear and managed to kill 2 of them. Here is a couple quotes regarding the Ascendant spear The power of the dark side all around him was impossible to ignore; it seeped from the very walls of the Ascendant Spear, a twisted creation of a brilliant yet diseased mind. ―Star Wars: Old Republic Annihilation (Page 305) He could feel evil and corruption enveloping him, growing steadily stronger during his decent, and he knew it wasn't because of his former Padawans presence. When Darth Mekhis had created the Ascendant Spear, she'd use a combination of experimental technology and Sith alchemy to imbue the ship itself with the energies of the dark side. By the time Gnost-Dural stepped into the turbolift that would take him to the black-heart of the vessel, he was feeling physically nauseated from the effects. ―Star Wars: Old Republic Annihilation (Page 230) Being able to fight at all is impressive in and of itself after all he went through let alone 2 apprentices and 2 sith lords at once and managed to kill 2 and fend off the others. There is a start i highly recommend the annihilation novel it is one of my favorites Pretty impressive display for lightsaber skills and endurance. I'll start by establishing Plo Koon's skill level. He was marked by Darth Maul, one of the most martially skilled sith in history, as a superior to Qui-Gon Jinn, and a potential peer to TPM Mace Windu. He longed to battle one of the truly great Jedi warriors: Plo Koon, perhaps, or Mace Windu. That would be a true test of his skill. —Star Wars: Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter Qui-Gon being one of the best duelist ever: Jinn was generally regarded as one of the best pure swordsmen the Order had ever seen. ―The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia A Jedi Master who was known as one of the Order's most formidable members, but his recklessness and his devotion to bizarre causes kept him from becoming a member of the Jedi Council. ―The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia His best (well, only) skill feat is stalemating and disarming Ventress from one of her sabers. This was done when he had a broken arm. As someone who actually had a broken arm before I can say it's pretty *********** painful, in the first few minutes I couldn't even see clearly, and when I started sliding down in my seat I didn't have the strength to sit up straight. So that's a pretty good endurance feat too. Not to mention the part where Plo disarmed Ventress. Ventress being a Makashi master makes it really impressive, since Makashi was made to counter Shii-Cho. Shii-Co focuses on disarming your opponent, so naturally Makashi puts emphasis on the contrary, being disarmed. Also Ventress even that early in the war was very formidable. She beat Kit Fisto who was one of the best duelist in the Jedi Order, not just in his era, but ever. She also faced Mace Windu, another one of the best duelist, and forced him to use all his skills to drive her off. Mace and Agen and Kit and Saesee - four of the greatest swordsmen our Order has ever produced. ―Revenge of the Sith Mace Windu had to use all his skills to defeat the dark side fighter Asajj Ventress. ―The Official Star Wars Fact File 108 Those accomplishments definitely mark Ventress superior to any opponent Gnost faced. Rule of thumb in Star Wars (or probably in ever verse) that one outstanding opponent is far more difficult than lots of "fodder". That's why in KotOR Malak was the boss fight, not the hoards of sith apprentices before that, or in TFU II Vader was instead of the dozens of clones. Or when Cade cut through waves of One Sith fighters before he dueled Krayt, etc. You get the picture Also Plo thanks to his broken arm and fighting style didn't even enjoy the form advantage against Ventress. Edited January 19, 2016 by cs_zoltan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adormitul Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 (edited) Pretty impressive, not sure if it's beyond Plo though. Mace Windu a few months after AotC could hit Kar Vastor 6 times before he could even react: Standing toe to toe, the top of Mace's head barely came to the level of Vastor's chin, and you could have tucked Mace's whole thick-muscled upper body inside Vastor's chest with room to spare. And even hurt, lurching drunkenly, Vaster still could whip his arms in blindingly fast raking slaps at Mace's head and wounded neck. But where Vastor's speed was blinding, Mace's was invisible. Not one of those slaps connected. Before Vastor could even focus his eyes, Mace had hit him six times. ―Shatterpoint Now before you bring up the obvious, I'm aware that Mace is superior to Plo, but this wasn't a prime Windu. He was pre-prime, he was on a dark side nexus, and he was overall in a pretty bad shape: Mace couldn't win such a battle on his best day, and this day was far from his best: he was exhausted, badly wounded, and heartsick. —Shatterpoint I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that a healthy RotS Plo Koon on neutral ground could replicate that. Its still Mace Windu that did that not Plo Koon. Plo Koon is said to be one of the best of the jedi order but the problem is what is considered one of the bets. The top 10 jedi, 100 or 1000. Also you forgot that a certain lightsaber skill he mastered becomes stronger by feeding on the dark side. His best (well, only) skill feat is stalemating and disarming Ventress from one of her sabers. This was done when he had a broken arm. As someone who actually had a broken arm before I can say it's pretty *********** painful, in the first few minutes I couldn't even see clearly, and when I started sliding down in my seat I didn't have the strength to sit up straight. So that's a pretty good endurance feat too. Not to mention the part where Plo disarmed Ventress. Ventress being a Makashi master makes it really impressive, since Makashi was made to counter Shii-Cho. Shii-Co focuses on disarming your opponent, so naturally Makashi puts emphasis on the contrary, being disarmed. Also Ventress even that early in the war was very formidable. She beat Kit Fisto who was one of the best duelist in the Jedi Order, not just in his era, but ever. She also faced Mace Windu, another one of the best duelist, and forced him to use all his skills to drive her off. Mace and Agen and Kit and Saesee - four of the greatest swordsmen our Order has ever produced. ―Revenge of the Sith Mace Windu had to use all his skills to defeat the dark side fighter Asajj Ventress. ―The Official Star Wars Fact File 108 Those accomplishments definitely mark Ventress superior to any opponent Gnost faced. Rule of thumb in Star Wars (or probably in ever verse) that one outstanding opponent is far more difficult than lots of "fodder". That's why in KotOR Malak was the boss fight, not the hoards of sith apprentices before that, or in TFU II Vader was instead of the dozens of clones. Or when Cade cut through waves of One Sith fighters before he dueled Krayt, etc. You get the picture Also Plo thanks to his broken arm and fighting style didn't even enjoy the form advantage against Ventress. True but those feats where made by Ventress before her prime it and years of experience and training. When she faced Gnost she was still sharpening her skills do not forget she reached the point she could defeat Grevious when before she lost so badly against him very very bad and she was in a team. She got very strong in the clone wars but was not at her peak when she was disarmed by Plo Koon. Edited January 19, 2016 by adormitul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 Its still Mace Windu that did that not Plo Koon. Plo Koon is said to be one of the best of the jedi order but the problem is what is considered one of the bets. The top 10 jedi, 100 or 1000. Also you forgot that a certain lightsaber skill he mastered becomes stronger by feeding on the dark side. Vaapad doesn't work like that. It channels the users inner darkness into a weapon of the light. Mace is very much a light side force users. This is why he is no match against Dooku on Vjun, even though he is on neutral ground: The Count's blade was quick as a viper striking. Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground: but here on Vjun, steeped in the dark side, his bladework was malice made visible—wickedness cut in red light. —Yoda: Dark Rendezvous And this is why Mace was affected by the Dark Side disturbance in the force, just like every other jedi: “Blind we are, if the development of this clone army we could not see,” Yoda remarked. “I think it is time to inform the Senate that our ability to use the Force has diminished.” “Only the Dark Lords of the Sith know of our weakness,” Yoda replied. “If informed the Senate is, multiply our adversaries will.” For the two Jedi Masters, this surprising development was troubling on several different levels. —Attack of the Clones novelization And do you have any actual reason why Mace's speed feat doesn't apply to Plo? Characters aren't only judged by what they did, but what sources say they could do, or what other people inferior to them can do. RotS Mace is not inferior to RotS Plo, but an AotC, wounded, exhausted, heartbroken, dark side nexus weakened Mace is more than likely is. True but those feats where made by Ventress before her prime it and years of experience and training. When she faced Gnost she was still sharpening her skills do not forget she reached the point she could defeat Grevious when before she lost so badly against him very very bad and she was in a team. She got very strong in the clone wars but was not at her peak when she was disarmed by Plo Koon. All those feats were before Plo faced Ventress so it's irrelevant how far she advanced later. Plo disarmed a Ventress that beat Fisto and pushed Mace in a duel. Also it's important to distinguish Legends and Canon Grievous, because they are not the same by a long shot. As you said Grievous beat Ventress and Durge together handily at the start of the war...then TCW Ventress beat TCW Grievous later in the war...yet Dooku a few months before RotS remarks that Grievous is more powerful than Ventress: He had a meeting scheduled with the formidable General Grievous, who was even more powerful than Ventress, but a great deal less interesting as a dinner-table conversationalist. ―Yoda: Dark Rendezvous It's obvious that the TCW duel is the inconsistent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PadsterPwns Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 All those feats were before Plo faced Ventress so it's irrelevant how far she advanced later. Plo disarmed a Ventress that beat Fisto and pushed Mace in a duel. Not meaning to detract from your argument but Ventress beating Fisto isn't as impressive when you consider that she had a form advantage and had seen his fighting style previously. It's still a great feat though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 Not meaning to detract from your argument but Ventress beating Fisto isn't as impressive when you consider that she had a form advantage and had seen his fighting style previously. It's still a great feat though. Yes but Fisto ***** all over the majority of duelists of all time. And you have to be within respectable skill level to capitalize on a stylistic advantage, that's why Anakin couldn't beat Dooku in AotC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PadsterPwns Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 Yes but Fisto ***** all over the majority of duelists of all time. And you have to be within respectable skill level to capitalize on a stylistic advantage, that's why Anakin couldn't beat Dooku in AotC. True, I was simply stating that Ventress did have a slight edge due to knowing Fisto's style and having observed him moments before. That said it's still a great feat that proves Ventress is on the level of "among the best duelists the Jedi ever produced." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ConVallian Posted January 20, 2016 Author Share Posted January 20, 2016 Crap i almost forgot about this lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ConVallian Posted January 20, 2016 Author Share Posted January 20, 2016 I'll give it to you on the fact that as far as dueling capabilities go Ventress was better than anyone Gnost faced in this book. But i still have a hard time thinking she is more of a threat than 2 sith lords and 2 apprentices back to back. While yes Gnost trained Karrid in Niman, the form she normally defaults to, she was also trained by Darth Malgus, and both Gnost and Karrid implied she had skilled herself in other forms, most likely form V like Malgus. But unfortunately the duel was cut short before Karrid and Gnost finished. On your question as to did the book state how good his opponents were. Well the 2 apprentices are just that, apprentices. If you want to compare with PT it would probably look like how a duel between Kenobi vs Bariss and Ahsoka at the same time would look like. And he was winning the duel until Karrid and later her troopers interrupted and overpowered him. And even when Karrid showed up he held his own, but granted its hard to go all out on the strongest Sith in the room whos firing lightning at you while being attacked from both sides by much younger foes. Also Darth Karrid was a Dark Council member head of the sphere of technology, was her physical prowess as good as the other council members? Not by a long shot. Where she shined was her control of the force and her affinity with the dark side, as evident in her being able to control the Ascendant Spear. Now the two sith lords, the only thing the book said was they were strong allies of Karrids. Now each one gave a good performance and before the Spear was set to detonate, Gnost was about to lose, but granted this is after his torture session and they are on a Nexus, The only reason Gnost lasted as long as he did was experience and his ability to read his opponents moves and his unorthodox tactics at times. But im sure a 100% health Gnost would defeat each one individually with relative ease, but we are only showed a exhausted Gnost versus two healthy sith lords at one time and he still held them off. The only real powerful threat he faced was Darth Karrid and both times they faced off in the book he was facing two other opponents and the duels were cut short before Karrid went all out. The first one she was spectating most of it and the second time she was distracted by theran shan.Gnost stated to himself in the first encounter that he didnt think he was able to defeat Karrid once she starts to fight. Give me a little bit to sort through the book and ill post it here. So the novel and he himself implied Karrid was alot stronger than him. But like you said he had a bit of advantage with him being her old mentor and all that, but she had spent years training in the Dark side under a different master since she was his padawan, the book is vague on the timeline, but i'd say 10 years is a far guess as to how long she was sith, so it wasnt like last month he was teaching her and this month they are fighting. So all in all Ventress is a far better duelist than these 5, but Karrid's forte was the force, she was a reverse Ventress. Gnost only had a chance because of his tactile mind, experience and unorthodox fighting style, he had a counter for almost every situation, but sometimes all this manages to do is delay the inevitable, which was the case in his last fight in the book. But i just dont see Ventress being a bigger threat than all these together after being tortured for 10 hours. I think Karrid is stronger in the force (lightning,Alchemy, sorcery and the like) than ventress but if she let ventress get close its over for her. And to your TK comparison. Orgus Din was able to cause cave ins with his TK as well and he is admittedly pretty weak, while Gnost is alot stronger than he is. I'm not saying Gnost is stronger than Plo by any means, but i am suggesting he is a little smarter. He literally analysis every detail in his opponents form while he is fighting them. He would probably notice Plo is form V specialist right away and adjust his fighting style accordingly and fend him off till he found or made an opening. I honestly think this fight could go on for a long time. I dont see either one having an edge in force power, and their styles are different. I'd say it all comes down to endurance. It would come down if Plo is able to overpower him before he gets outsmarted, or if Gnost can hold him off until he found an opening, honestly i think this fight could go either way any time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ConVallian Posted January 20, 2016 Author Share Posted January 20, 2016 While Gnost could certainly adapt to Djem So, it doesn't have a hard counter, the closest thing to that would be Ataru, but Gnost didn't master that form. Also Plo doesn't seem to use a textbook Djem So. As for Gnost's tactical mind. I bet Plo isn't lacking there either: Actually Soresu is considered the best counter to Djem so. But that like a unstoppable force hitting an unmovable object. I dont think he specialized it as much as Anakin did but it is his favored form like you suggested Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adormitul Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 (edited) All those feats were before Plo faced Ventress so it's irrelevant how far she advanced later. Plo disarmed a Ventress that beat Fisto and pushed Mace in a duel. Also it's important to distinguish Legends and Canon Grievous, because they are not the same by a long shot. As you said Grievous beat Ventress and Durge together handily at the start of the war...then TCW Ventress beat TCW Grievous later in the war...yet Dooku a few months before RotS remarks that Grievous is more powerful than Ventress: He had a meeting scheduled with the formidable General Grievous, who was even more powerful than Ventress, but a great deal less interesting as a dinner-table conversationalist. ―Yoda: Dark Rendezvous It's obvious that the TCW duel is the inconsistent. The ability to speak does not make you intelligent. Now get out of here. The Red Eclipse <PC Gamer Mint Imperials> Kéja, Kejann, Aemis, Kyrí, Kyra'h, Késsa, Frängit, Lamîa, KalkïMaelin, Morwy Sorry but the event with the Ones where mentioned in Legends in Abeloth saga this events happened in TCW which means that its also part of legends. Sorry but its not separate. TCW is a good source. Edited January 20, 2016 by adormitul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ConVallian Posted January 20, 2016 Author Share Posted January 20, 2016 I highly suggest the Annihilation novel,it's one of my favorites, its a nice change of pace from reading about the all powerful sith and jedi once in awhile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PadsterPwns Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 I highly suggest the Annihilation novel,it's one of my favorites, its a nice change of pace from reading about the all powerful sith and jedi once in awhile. If you haven't read it I would also suggest Yoda Dark Rendezvous for the exact same reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ConVallian Posted January 21, 2016 Author Share Posted January 21, 2016 If you haven't read it I would also suggest Yoda Dark Rendezvous for the exact same reason. i have it but i havent read it yet, i found it in a box with old books, it isnt in the best of shape though lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts