Luke Skywalker vs Obi-Wan Kenobi

[peter_plankskull]

This is one of those more interesting fights. -snip-

 

.

I may not be a Star wars nerd or anything compared to anyone in this thread... but while yes, him not relying on his force powers may be a sign of his patience, what experience does he have fighting other force users besides getting thrown around by Darth Vader in ESB and Darth Vader holding back in ROTJ, compared to Kenobi with years of experience under his belt fighting various force users. While again, im not a star wars nerd but... you mentioned like 1-2 things about Kenobi and wrote a entire book about Luke Skywalker, perhaps more research on Kenobi is required?

Edited November 16, 2015 by peter_plankskull

[tunewalker]

I may not be a Star wars nerd or anything compared to anyone in this thread... but while yes, him not relying on his force powers may be a sign of his patience, what experience does he have fighting other force users besides getting thrown around by Darth Vader in ESB and Darth Vader holding back in ROTJ, compared to Kenobi with years of experience under his belt fighting various force users. While again, im not a star wars nerd but... you mentioned like 1-2 things about Kenobi and wrote a entire book about Luke Skywalker, perhaps more research on Kenobi is required?

 

Edit: basically TL ; DR no point to cover a character who every one already knows and who has already been covered in earlier portions of the thread. I know Kenobi as well as the next person, but its Luke that constantly gets low balled for no reason other then the age of the 1983 RotJ movie.

 

 

 

Everyone know's Kenobi and are not likely to underestimate him. Vader wasnt holding back in RotJ there is litterally nothing supporting that claim any where, I really wish people would stop using it. Luke didnt have any experience when he faced off against Vader, and yet he still adapted himself well enough to fight against one of the most powerful Sith of all time, a Man more powerful then all but maybe 2 Jedi (Yoda and Windu, with Windu being more powerful being highly questionable) and 1 sith in the entirety of current Canon, thus experience with "force users" is not required to win in such a contest ever, other wise Luke never would have even hurt his father in ESB or stood toe to toe with a topped out Vader in RotJ, who is the "greatest jedi killer of all time".

 

I will go back to Kenobi again, Against all opponents that over powered him (Dooku and Anakin) he had 1 prevailing strategy, that I outlined above. Against Luke this strategy would fail for the reasons stated above, thus Kenobi would lose. This was an analysis not of just pure strength and power (if it was Luke wins) but of Mentality and combat strategies, while Kenobi may be better tooled for more situations (thus being an all around more capable duelist and strategist) the tools he does have and use both physically and mentally are not what is required to defeat Luke. Kenobi's primary strategy when dealing with more powerful opponents wont work on Luke because the strategy requires the opponent to be impatient, it requires the opponent to allow Kenobi to move how he wishes and follow, it requires the more powerful opponent to make mistakes, something Luke wont do, and the power difference thus will make the difference.

 

 

That's something a lot of people dont like to do in these vs things. Mentality, strategy. Experience is a factor, if and only if it leads to strategies and capabilities that allow one to take advantage of the opponents inexperience. The strategies Kenobi tries to use against more powerful less experienced opponents, work when the opponent is rash and impatient, as most who are strong and inexperienced are, but fail when the opponent is just as patient and adaptable as he is. Kenobi trained Luke, Yoda trained Luke, and Luke in 1 short fight learned to Mirror his father's style, one that proved fatal to hundreds of Jedi. Even if Kenobi's sword style was better, Luke has shown himself adaptable enough to just Mirror it any way. Kenobi's form is Soresu it has 1 strategy and 1 strategy only, hold up a defense until his opponent punches himself out (rope a dope), it worked against Anakin because Anakin didnt pay attention to his surroundings and played perfectly into Kenobi's hands, even then Kenobi was the one beginning to tire, not Anakin, had the fight continued Kenobi would have lost, Kenobi himself stating Anakin was the better all around fight, and unlike Anakin, Luke isnt going to get cocky or impatient or let Kenobi lead him around, he has already proven patient against Vader in Episode VI, and with the Ewoks in Episode VI, hell even at Jabba's palace he gave Jabba several warnings before he slaughtered his entire mercenary crew. Showing several fold his patience, and in his few fights he shows adaptability as well.

 

Luke may not have as many fights, but number of fights doesnt make some one better, experience is useful sure, but only if you can turn that experience into an advantage, and Kenobi's strategy just wont work on Luke, Kenobi doesnt HAVE a strategy that would work on Luke. That's the point, I know Kenobi, everyone does. Luke is the poor sole that is constantly belittled even though his achievements and who he is as a character are much greater then people give him credit for.

 

Edited November 16, 2015 by tunewalker

[peter_plankskull]

Edit: basically TL ; DR no point to cover a character who every one already knows and who has already been covered in earlier portions of the thread. I know Kenobi as well as the next person, but its Luke that constantly gets low balled for no reason other then the age of the 1983 RotJ movie.

 

 

 

Everyone know's Kenobi and are not likely to underestimate him. Vader wasnt holding back in RotJ there is litterally nothing supporting that claim any where, I really wish people would stop using it. Luke didnt have any experience when he faced off against Vader, and yet he still adapted himself well enough to fight against one of the most powerful Sith of all time, a Man more powerful then all but maybe 2 Jedi (Yoda and Windu, with Windu being more powerful being highly questionable) and 1 sith in the entirety of current Canon, thus experience with "force users" is not required to win in such a contest ever, other wise Luke never would have even hurt his father in ESB or stood toe to toe with a topped out Vader in RotJ, who is the "greatest jedi killer of all time".

 

I will go back to Kenobi again, Against all opponents that over powered him (Dooku and Anakin) he had 1 prevailing strategy, that I outlined above. Against Luke this strategy would fail for the reasons stated above, thus Kenobi would lose. This was an analysis not of just pure strength and power (if it was Luke wins) but of Mentality and combat strategies, while Kenobi may be better tooled for more situations (thus being an all around more capable duelist and strategist) the tools he does have and use both physically and mentally are not what is required to defeat Luke. Kenobi's primary strategy when dealing with more powerful opponents wont work on Luke because the strategy requires the opponent to be impatient, it requires the opponent to allow Kenobi to move how he wishes and follow, it requires the more powerful opponent to make mistakes, something Luke wont do, and the power difference thus will make the difference.

 

 

That's something a lot of people dont like to do in these vs things. Mentality, strategy. Experience is a factor, if and only if it leads to strategies and capabilities that allow one to take advantage of the opponents inexperience. The strategies Kenobi tries to use against more powerful less experienced opponents, work when the opponent is rash and impatient, as most who are strong and inexperienced are, but fail when the opponent is just as patient and adaptable as he is. Kenobi trained Luke, Yoda trained Luke, and Luke in 1 short fight learned to Mirror his father's style, one that proved fatal to hundreds of Jedi. Even if Kenobi's sword style was better, Luke has shown himself adaptable enough to just Mirror it any way. Kenobi's form is Soresu it has 1 strategy and 1 strategy only, hold up a defense until his opponent punches himself out (rope a dope), it worked against Anakin because Anakin didnt pay attention to his surroundings and played perfectly into Kenobi's hands, even then Kenobi was the one beginning to tire, not Anakin, had the fight continued Kenobi would have lost, Kenobi himself stating Anakin was the better all around fight, and unlike Anakin, Luke isnt going to get cocky or impatient or let Kenobi lead him around, he has already proven patient against Vader in Episode VI, and with the Ewoks in Episode VI, hell even at Jabba's palace he gave Jabba several warnings before he slaughtered his entire mercenary crew. Showing several fold his patience, and in his few fights he shows adaptability as well.

 

Luke may not have as many fights, but number of fights doesnt make some one better, experience is useful sure, but only if you can turn that experience into an advantage, and Kenobi's strategy just wont work on Luke, Kenobi doesnt HAVE a strategy that would work on Luke. That's the point, I know Kenobi, everyone does. Luke is the poor sole that is constantly belittled even though his achievements and who he is as a character are much greater then people give him credit for.

Im no star wars nerds so I never really cite anything... but honestly if someone defeats a character who has been a single fight duel his entire life, and defeats someone with 25+ years of experience... that's just a case of bad writing and good guys win so they can end a trilogy. However, I have seen various mentions of Darth Vader not being able to sense Luke due to letting his emotions in the way, this probably isn't credible, but my point from earlier about bad writing and the good guy has to win is...well... hopefully. However you did redeem yourself and you seem pretty knowledgeable about both combatants, I enjoy reading these time to time and may one day get into EU if its ever fixed.

[Jedi_riches]

When Obi-Wan Kenobi duels his former apprentice Darth Vader on the Death Star, both combatants know that they are but shadows of their former selves.

—Star Wars Insider

 

Backed up by a quote from George Lucas in one of the documentaries from TPM (paraphrased slightly as my memory is not 100%)

 

GL: "I wanted to show a type of sword fighting that was reminiscent of the old movies but a more energised version of it as we have never seen real Jedi fight before, we had old men, and crippled half men and half driods and that luke learned from these old people".

[Beniboybling]

That's a pretty excellent point Tunewalker, you make a convincing case. Anyone want to counter?

[Wolfninjajedi]

Im no star wars nerds so I never really cite anything... but honestly if someone defeats a character who has been a single fight duel his entire life, and defeats someone with 25+ years of experience... that's just a case of bad writing and good guys win so they can end a trilogy. However, I have seen various mentions of Darth Vader not being able to sense Luke due to letting his emotions in the way, this probably isn't credible, but my point from earlier about bad writing and the good guy has to win is...well... hopefully. However you did redeem yourself and you seem pretty knowledgeable about both combatants, I enjoy reading these time to time and may one day get into EU if its ever fixed.

 

Luke has fought against more than just Vader Force User wise.

 

He was able to defend himself from Celeste Mourne's attacks before his training with Yoda.

 

Even ESB he was capable of challenging Vader, he was just too hasty. Vader makes note of his impressive skills.

 

He also fought against under circumstances going against him a Dark Jedi before he received any training from Yoda, can't recall the instance there.

 

Ontop of his ridiculous learning curve, him beating Vader in ROTJ isn't a stretch...well that and he didn't really so much beat Vader in skill but more due to overpowering with rage.

[peter_plankskull]

Luke has fought against more than just Vader Force User wise.

 

He was able to defend himself from Celeste Mourne's attacks before his training with Yoda.

 

Even ESB he was capable of challenging Vader, he was just too hasty. Vader makes note of his impressive skills.

 

He also fought against under circumstances going against him a Dark Jedi before he received any training from Yoda, can't recall the instance there.

 

Ontop of his ridiculous learning curve, him beating Vader in ROTJ isn't a stretch...well that and he didn't really so much beat Vader in skill but more due to overpowering with rage.

Celeste Morune or whoever... wasn't around when 1983 movie rolled around so that's irrelevant. The only thing star wars at the time was the 3 movies, and up to that point in the movie we only saw Luke in a single duel previously, and even then it seemed Vader was trying to capture him alive throughout the entire time. Attempting to trap him in the carbonate chamber.. giving him a chance to live once he cut his hand off, these are signs he wasn't going all out. While Vader has aged and such, the fact still matters that Luke was in a single duel up to his life to that point, compared to Vader which was supposed to be one of the strongest people in the galaxy with plenty of experience under his belt, even with his rage he shouldn't people able to beat him. Instead he should of tripped up going into a mistake because of his anger, showing the audience that using anger is never the answer, and causes Luke to lose if anything. Instead we get more of a Yin and Yang kind of mojo, which both are required in life, however he only beat Vader because of the darkside....