Nerfing the Flashfire/Sting through Minor Component swap?

[Drakkolich]

I didn't for the simple fact that it would be a waste of my time to do so. In order to refute your statement I have to call, and prove, you a liar. To do so means following you into numerous matches and getting screen shots of you primarily flying a battlescout (of the scout variants), something I have neither the time or inclination to do. Even if I were inclined to do that you could simply dismiss my evidence as being cherry picked to prove my point, that the matches I flew with you aren't representative of your overall flight time between the S2E and battlescout, or any number of other reasons. Either way we'd be right back to where we are now.

 

With that in mind I'm perfectly happy to concede that you, and no doubt others, are not motivated by the ulterior motives I originally suggested. I'm content to concede that.

 

This being said I stand by my skepticism of the factual basis of the argument that any nerf to battlescouts would be a huge buff to GS that would allow them to run rampant. Let me go into detail why I'm skeptical of the factual basis. First off the premise is that a nerf to battlescouts will be a buff to GS. That's true by the virtue of the fact that literally every ship that isn't a battlescout will be buffed proportional to how meta worthy that ship is. On this I don't dispute the factual validity of that.

 

What I do dispute is the second implicit part of that argument: it relies on the premise that the T1 is ineffective as a hunter-killer and you need the battlescout to retain all of it's current power to keep GS in check. Now what's the difference between a T1 and a battlescout assuming they both use DField and a MLC/QLC + pod setup. Defensively the T1 has 1170 shields + 950 hull (2120 total HP). The Battlescout has 1430 shields + 950 hull (2380 total HP). The HP difference is a measly 260, it still takes 2 slug rail shots to kill both and a crit slug will 1 shot both. So defensively there is 0 difference between the two in regards to their ability to survive an encounter with a GS. How about offensively then? MLC has, at max range, 749 dps shields & 635 dps hull (assuming the T5 right is taken) and 8% crit (T4 left). QLC has, at max range, 886 dps vs shields & 750 dps vs hull (assuming the T5 right is taken) and 8% crit (T4 left). That's 137 dps and 115 dps difference respectively. However, MLC is slightly more accurate at range (5%) and has a lower tracking penalty. In all other regards the two scouts can equip the same offensive components. Now the number crunchers on the forum are free to correct me on this but that seems hardly a big enough difference to make the T1 ineffective as a hunter-killer and make the battlescout the only effective hunter-killer. Maybe I missed the thread that argues that it is but I've also not seen anything on the Stassiepedia or elsewhere indicating that the T1 is anything other than a viable, effective hunter-killer using an MLC/pods build.

 

This is why I'm skeptical of the premise that battlescouts are the only thing keeping GS from running amok and that any nerf would result in GS now being able to do so. It relies on the premise that T1s are not effective hunter-killers and if you weaken the battlescout in anyway, shape, or form will remove the one thing keeping GS from running rampant.

 

I really don't want to get involved in the "what needs to be nerfed conversation" I just want to touch on your math if I may.

 

You actually changed the math to favor Quad Lasers. The values you quote for Quads Lasers were with a non-upgraded Damage capacitor while with Laser Cannon you had a non-upgraded range capacitor.

 

The real comparison is:

Quad Laser Cannon (Crit/Shield Damage upgrades, with ranged capacitor)

Max range dps = 853 shields dps / 723 hull dps

 

Laser Cannon (Crit/Shields Damage upgrades, with ranged capacitor)

Max range dps = 749 shields dps / 635 hull dps

 

The difference is 104 dps on shields (A 14% damage increase) and 88 dps on hull. (A 14% damage increase)

 

 

So the complete differences between using a Blackbolt/Novadive vs Sting/Flashfire in these Gunship hunter builds are.

 

Sting/Flashfire:

+14% Damage on lasers (Down to a 7% increase at 500 range)

+20% Shields

 

Blackbolt/Novadive:

+5 Accuracy on lasers (Only from range 3000-5000)

+2000m Sensor dampening

-0.3% Tracking penalty

 

 

So there are the numbers you guys can go back to your discussion with the right ones now.

Edited November 13, 2015 by Drakkolich

[Gavin_Kelvar]

I really don't want to get involved in the "what needs to be nerfed conversation" I just want to touch on your math if I may.

 

You actually changed the math to favor Quad Lasers. The values you quote for Quads Lasers were with a non-upgraded Damage capacitor while with Laser Cannon you had a non-upgraded range capacitor.

 

The real comparison is:

Quad Laser Cannon (Crit/Shield Damage upgrades, with ranged capacitor)

Max range dps = 853 shields dps / 723 hull dps

 

Laser Cannon (Crit/Shields Damage upgrades, with ranged capacitor)

Max range dps = 749 shields dps / 635 hull dps

 

The difference is 104 dps on shields (A 14% damage increase) and 88 dps on hull. (A 14% damage increase)

 

 

So the complete differences between using a Blackbolt/Novadive vs Sting/Flashfire in these Gunship hunter builds are.

 

Sting/Flashfire:

+14% Damage on lasers (Down to a 7% increase at 500 range)

+20% Shields

 

Blackbolt/Novadive:

+5 Accuracy on lasers (Only from range 3000-5000)

+2000m Sensor dampening

-0.3% Tracking penalty

 

 

So there are the numbers you guys can go back to your discussion with the right ones now.

 

Thanks for catching that! I was using Dulfy's GSF calc and totally forgot to check the capacitor type equipped. Hence my math error (just to clarify that it wasn't an intentional mistake).

[Drakkolich]

Thanks for catching that! I was using Dulfy's GSF calc and totally forgot to check the capacitor type equipped. Hence my math error (just to clarify that it wasn't an intentional mistake).

 

I didn't think it was intentional it's one of those really easy things to miss when using the Dulfy GSF calculator. Just wanted you guys to have the right numbers.

[Ardaneb]

Meta players are not going to switch to T1 scouts if there are mines out in TDM. They will fly gunship. Really good scout pilots choose gunship a lot with even one bomber out in a close shipyards TDM match. We are already choosing gunships over the ship that you think is over-powered.

[Gavin_Kelvar]

Meta players are not going to switch to T1 scouts if there are mines out in TDM. They will fly gunship. Really good scout pilots choose gunship a lot with even one bomber out in a close shipyards TDM match. We are already choosing gunships over the ship that you think is over-powered.

 

Who said anything about pilots switching to T1s when there are mines present? (Heck did anyone even suggest switching to a battlescout instead of a GS with ion rail when mines were present?) More to the point how is that even relevant to a discussion that has revolved around the notion that nerfing battlescouts will give GS too much power?

 

EDIT: or have you ditched arguing that nerfing battlescouts would buff GS too much and are now arguing that they don't need a nerf because you believe that in order for battlescouts to be overpowered they'd have to the best choice for literally everything and anything less than that means they're balanced? (that is essentially what your quoted argument boils down to)

 

So are you just against tuning down the battlescout period even though doing so would make the S2E you profess to prefer more competitive in the meta (literally everything not a battlescout gets buffed by a battlescout nerf)?

Edited November 14, 2015 by Gavin_Kelvar

[RickDagles]

I don't think this is correct, at least if you're referring to more or less head to head, and not as a choice between the two when choosing your ship for a match.

 

I meant that it would be stronger at surviving against a T2 because it would win the evasion vs accuracy game. And the Novadive would also be better at delivering surprise kills to the T2. I would never advise dogfighting with a T1 against a T2 but I would certainly recommend doing a joust if the cooldowns are in your favour.

[Greezt]

But that's a completely separate discussion. Suffice to say that I honestly do believe that most times, Booster Recharge is an important part of the best multipurpose dogfighting build in the game. Certainly debatable, but I would argue strongly that it is far from the garbage component it sometimes gets the rep for being.

 

I wouldn't say booster recharge is a garbage component, but it takes more skill to use properly than targeting telemetry and blaster overcharge. It's worse as a pure offensive component than both of them, though. Still, seeing it more in-game might be fun.

 

Edit- as for sabotage probes, I guess you're right. So I'd give them a 6000m range, and they'd fit well with laser cannons. That way even if a T2 ran sab probes the T1 would still have a chance, and the T2 would most likely stick to clusters/pods because they'd want something to fit their range better.

Edited November 14, 2015 by Greezt

[Gavin_Kelvar]

I will note that I think removing TT from the T2 scout (I assume that's what we're still talking about? I only skimmed the last few entries) would largely invalidate the QnP T2 Scout build, giving the T2 more of a focus on dogfighting. I guess you could run Blaster Overcharge with something like Concentrated Fire and be good for killing a gunship every minute or so...

 

Would that necessarily be bad though? It would give a more clear role assignment between the T1 and T2. Doing like Nem suggested in the OP and swapping armor for sensor might further help reinforce those roles.

Edited November 24, 2015 by Gavin_Kelvar

[Pietrastor]

A ship that can 1-shot like Gunships (which get called OP on daily basis) yet has no drawbacks of gunships is definition of OP. Simple. Nerf the crap outta it. Edited November 28, 2015 by Pietrastor

[Danalon]

A ship that can 1-shot like Gunships (which get called OP on daily basis) yet has no drawbacks of gunships is definition of OP. Simple. Nerf the crap outta it.

 

Gunships, Scouts, Bombers - every ship class except Strikes gets called OP regularly. Probably because people have difficulties accepting that there are better pilots than them. Also it's for sure easier to complain about ship classes instead of actually learning to fly them or their counters.

 

Gunships are inferior in "melee" range to Scouts and Gunships are inferior to Bombers in a CQC situation like defending satellites. Gunships can't one-shot, except with incredibly lucky critical hits - happening so rare, nobody needs to worry about. Not counting Damage Overcharge because a) it's announced in the middle of the screen and b) Scouts aren't any less dangerous with DO, while alos having the advantage of getting to the powerup locations easier.