Swarlesx Posted October 30, 2015 Author Share Posted October 30, 2015 Luke did win. He beat Vader. Legitimately beat Vader. He lost to Sidious who is outright stated to be the most powerful Sith of all time. Sidious who defeated Yoda. Defeated Mace. The best Jedi the order had ever seen. Sidious who was cornered by the majority of the jedi council and trounced them with ease. No, Luke in ROTJ was not Sidious level but he did beat Vader. Vader who was legitimately powerful. More powerful than he was as Anakin. In saber skill and force powers. To be fair most aren't Sidious level. Not even Darth Vader. ROTJ Luke would be able to contest with Dooku, Darth Maul, Ventress, Obi Wan Kenobi, Anakin, Windu, and more. If that's weak then 99% of Jedi are weak but that would still make Luke far away from the "Weakest of all time." I want to put Luke generally around Mauls level. I don't think he could defeated Dooku or most of the council, but he could defiantly take down Ventress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 (edited) ESB Vader was his prime in the films. In ROTJ he was conflicted over what Luke had told him. When Luke and company were traveling to Endor Vader could sense him on the transport. But when Luke was hiding in the dark during their dual Vader couldn't find him. Vaders mind wasn't clear during their fight. Not according to the film makers themselves who would have oked the book version for release, and not according to interviews for insider. In the movies Vader's prime was RotJ, he felt Luke's presence but didnt have his exact location even on the shuttle we have no proof he had his exact location. Further Luke was trying to hide, you think maybe Luke knows some techniques to do that. And again according to all the information we have on RotJ Vader wasnt holding back, this is an opinion and one that has never been proven correct by any one that shares it, while the RotJ Vader being his prime has several quotes supporting it. Edited October 30, 2015 by tunewalker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 As stated earlier, yes Luke beat Vader then lost to Palp, who all but destroyed by him. Until the new movies or canon reveal more, Luke is average. OP friend is right on the money. So the top 1% of Jedi... is Average.... does that mean the bottom 99% are terribad??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swarlesx Posted October 30, 2015 Author Share Posted October 30, 2015 As stated earlier, yes Luke beat Vader then lost to Palp, who all but destroyed by him. Until the new movies or canon reveal more, Luke is average. OP friend is right on the money. Right on the money? To call him "The worst Jedi Knight that lived" is far too extreme. It's true that he lacked experience, but considering what little formal training he had and how well he fought Vader, he is really impressive. It would take most Jedi a decade of training to reach his level of force control and dueling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhyltran Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 (edited) I want to put Luke generally around Mauls level. I don't think he could defeated Dooku or most of the council, but he could defiantly take down Ventress. If you put Luke around Maul's level then he can contest with Dooku. Sons of Dathomir Maul had Dooku on the back pedal. Though, I will say I agree with you. Just noting I said "contest" not necessarily defeat. Still, most Jedi would not be able to defeat or contest the people mentioned and the fact Luke did it with such little training.. as you mentioned is just insane. Even Anakin got to his level via training since he was an eight year old child. Luke had far less time than that. Edited October 30, 2015 by Rhyltran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pirana Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 lol Don't get yourselves into a frenzy, nothing more than hyperbole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 lol Don't get yourselves into a frenzy, nothing more than hyperbole. Its just an issue with calling top 1% "average" it would be like saying.... oh That guy that earns 100 Million a year is earning the "average" salary, no he is rich as hell.... I want that kind of money... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pirana Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 (edited) Its just an issue with calling top 1% "average" it would be like saying.... oh That guy that earns 100 Million a year is earning the "average" salary, no he is rich as hell.... I want that kind of money... Perhaps I phrased that wrong... No, Luke is certainly not the worst Jedi, but until something is proven, he is without a doubt, average. Edited October 30, 2015 by Pirana Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swarlesx Posted October 30, 2015 Author Share Posted October 30, 2015 Perhaps I phrased that wrong... No, Luke is certainly not the worst Jedi, but until something is proven, he is without a doubt, average. Maybe in terms of ability, but in potential he is well above average. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pirana Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 Maybe in terms of ability, but in potential he is well above average. Agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 Maybe in terms of ability, but in potential he is well above average. I foresee that changing soon in the Star Wars comic series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 (edited) Perhaps I phrased that wrong... No, Luke is certainly not the worst Jedi, but until something is proven, he is without a doubt, average. We did prove things... He beat Vader, who is more powerful then Anakin according to Star Wars Rebels and his own claims in Star Wars A New Hope, and is even stronger in Empire Strikes back and even stronger in Return of the Jedi according to insider/ people interviews, Anakin according to the movies (Revenge of the Sith, and Attack of the Clones) and the Cartoons (The Clone wars) is easily one of the most powerful jedi of his time especially with his defeat of Dooku who in the Clone wars cartoon was basically able to trash most opponents and according to the movies held his own against Yoda who is the most powerful Jedi in current Disney Canon. The Fact that Luke was able to beat Vader is proof that Luke is not "average" but one of the most powerful in current canon as of Return of the Jedi. Kind of begs the question of which characters are "out of his league" IE "above average" in ability and power and the like. Edit: remember if you dont want to use EU, then all OR material is also non-canon, so Revan and the like dont exist in current canon. Edited October 30, 2015 by tunewalker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pirana Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 (edited) We did prove things... He beat Vader, who is more powerful then Anakin according to Star Wars Rebels and his own claims in Star Wars A New Hope, and is even stronger in Empire Strikes back and even stronger in Return of the Jedi according to insider/ people interviews, Anakin according to the movies (Revenge of the Sith, and Attack of the Clones) and the Cartoons (The Clone wars) is easily one of the most powerful jedi of his time especially with his defeat of Dooku who in the Clone wars cartoon was basically able to trash most opponents and according to the movies held his own against Yoda who is the most powerful Jedi in current Disney Canon. The Fact that Luke was able to beat Vader is proof that Luke is not "average" but one of the most powerful in current canon as of Return of the Jedi. Don't watch cartoons. And who was dooku destroying? Anyone of significance? Probably not. Insider/People interviews? So in other words, you're reading other's opinions. Luke was average, he beat an old man barely, then nearly got destroyed by an even older man. Edited October 30, 2015 by Pirana Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 (edited) Don't watch cartoons. And who was dooku destroying? Anyone of significance? Probably not. Insider/People interviews. So in other words, you're reading other's opinions. Luke was average, he beat an old man barely, then nearly got destroyed by an even older man. Reading interviews from the people who MADE the movies... so... there is that. Any one of significance... how about everyone of significance that wasnt named Yoda or Windu.... even in multi people fights... Greivous, Ventress, an entire strike team sent to kill him, Savage and Ventress at the same time, Obi-wan and Anakin at the same time, multiple times through out the series... basically every one. "luminous beings are we not this crude matter" Empire Strikes back, spoken by Yoda, the Current most powerful Jedi in Disney Canon, age doesnt mean anything... that "old man" was Vader, which again "When I left you I was but the learner, now I am the master" (A new Hope confirmation Vader > Anakin) If you dont watch the cartoons you cant tell me what I am telling you is false based on those cartoons and the like since you dont know anything about the current canon since you arent following hte current stories being produced by that canon, so when some one with superior information on the subject comes in and provides you with information instead of sticking to your guns BECAUSE of your ignorance, you admit your ignorance and move on, since as you said, you didnt watch the cartoons, but that doesnt make them any less of "proof" like some Lawyers will say, "ignorance of the law is not an excuse", Ignorance of the facts does not make them any less truthful or any less of a fact. I am imparting knowledge of current disney canon to you, you are welcome, this makes Luke "one of the most powerful Jedi in Current canon, in ability and potential as of this point in time in Return of the Jedi" according to the current workings of Disney canon. Edited October 30, 2015 by tunewalker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhyltran Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 (edited) Don't watch cartoons. And who was dooku destroying? Anyone of significance? Probably not. Insider/People interviews? So in other words, you're reading other's opinions. Luke was average, he beat an old man barely, then nearly got destroyed by an even older man. They're canon. End of discussion. Also going by that logic anakin is average. Going by the movies and not the "Cartoons." He beat an old man (dooku) and lost to Obi Wan. Who did he beat of note? If Dooku level = average. Who isn't average? To you is Sidious/Yoda the only ones who matter? Edited October 30, 2015 by Rhyltran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 They're canon. End of discussion. Also going by that logic anakin is average. Going by the movies and not the "Cartoons." He beat an old man (dooku) and lost to Obi Wan. Who did he beat of note? If Dooku level = average. Who isn't average? To you is Sidious/Yoda the only ones who matter? I asked before, I am really really curious as to who isnt "average".... who is out of Luke's League? besides the most powerful Sith in Current Canon, and the most powerful Jedi in Current canon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swarlesx Posted October 30, 2015 Author Share Posted October 30, 2015 I asked before, I am really really curious as to who isnt "average".... who is out of Luke's League? besides the most powerful Sith in Current Canon, and the most powerful Jedi in Current canon? I believe it's been said by Lucas in the past that Luke is Anakins potential realized. If that's true Luke should be the most powerful Jedi by the new film, but obviously we can't say that for sure. In that case I would say Yoda or Mace are the most powerful jedi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 (edited) I believe it's been said by Lucas in the past that Luke is Anakins potential realized. If that's true Luke should be the most powerful Jedi by the new film, but obviously we can't say that for sure. In that case I would say Yoda or Mace are the most powerful jedi. Ya, and I can agree with that, but that doesnt mean our guy that litterally right bellow that is "average" if you get my meaning. Yes Yoda is number 1, we know this, Windu may be number 2, but that doesnt mean Luke is average among the thousands of Jedi......, and there is even an argument with current shown abilities that Luke is in Windu's caliber pretty easily, just like Vader is in Windu's Caliber pretty easily.... and that's kind of what I meant.. other then Yoda and Sidious who is out of Luke's caliber to make him "average", Windu isnt.... he may be able to beat Luke, but he Luke is definately comparable to him, and from your statement I dont think you are going to say "windu is average" (by caliber we mean they have comparable abilities between all of their appearances, to say that since they have never met we actually cant say for any certainty which is actually better) Edited October 30, 2015 by tunewalker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swarlesx Posted October 30, 2015 Author Share Posted October 30, 2015 Ya, and I can agree with that, but that doesnt mean our guy that litterally right bellow that is "average" if you get my meaning. Yes Yoda is number 1, we know this, Windu may be number 2, but that doesnt mean Luke is average among the thousands of Jedi......, and there is even an argument with current shown abilities that Luke is in Windu's caliber pretty easily, just like Vader is in Windu's Caliber pretty easily.... and that's kind of what I meant.. other then Yoda and Sidious who is out of Luke's caliber to make him "average", Windu isnt.... he may be able to beat Luke, but he Luke is definately comparable to him, and from your statement I dont think you are going to say "windu is average" For sure. As I said before, even if we could consider Luke average as of ROTJ, it doesn't change the fact that his potential is well above that of most jedi we have seen in current canon or EU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 (edited) For sure. As I said before, even if we could consider Luke average as of ROTJ, it doesn't change the fact that his potential is well above that of most jedi we have seen in current canon or EU. I am not talking about potential, I am talking about what he achieved as of RotJ, I am wondering where this though of him being "average" in RotJ is coming from with the evidence that has been shown, he beat Vader, which all the current canon stuff has shown him to be comparable to Windu. There is no reason to think Vader got weaker, especially with how Yoda talks to Luke and how Luke is portrayed from ESB to RotJ. Luke Clearly got stronger from the 2 and Sidious has NEVER replaced an apprentice that did not already surpass his former apprentice (he doesnt recruit on potential alone) Edited October 30, 2015 by tunewalker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swarlesx Posted October 30, 2015 Author Share Posted October 30, 2015 I am not talking about potential, I am talking about what he achieved as of RotJ, I am wondering where this though of him being "average" in RotJ is coming from with the evidence that has been shown. Honestly I personally don't consider him average. I think he could take down Ventress and be a match for Maul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 (edited) Honestly I personally don't consider him average. I think he could take down Ventress and be a match for Maul. So people that can beat him you think are.... Talzin, Sidous and Yoda basically... (Maul and Dooku were matches for one another, and we never saw Dooku and Windu go at it, so figuring out where he lies is kind of.... tricky to say the least.) and I can see that, and probably agree with it honestly. I give him a little bit more credit (as in I think he could take Maul, instead of match him... meaning I think he can take basically everyone except those same three, but that is just my opinion), but that comes from the debate I am going to let go for right now that Vader wasnt holding back in RotJ, he wasnt according to all supplemental material and Yoda, and Sidious, and Vader, but... I will let that go. Edited October 30, 2015 by tunewalker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swarlesx Posted October 30, 2015 Author Share Posted October 30, 2015 So people that can beat him you think are.... Talzin, Sidous and Yoda basically... (Maul and Dooku were matches for one another, and we never saw Dooku and Windu go at it, so figuring out where he lies is kind of.... tricky to say the least.) and I can see that, and probably agree with it honestly. I give him a little bit more credit, but that comes from the debate I am going to let go for right now that Vader wasnt holding back in RotJ, he wasnt according to all supplemental material and Yoda, and Sidious, and Vader, but... I will let that go. I don't think Luke was at Sidous level, but I do think it is worth noting that Luke probably had no idea Sidous could shoot lighting from his fingers. Luke getting wreaked by Sidous I think is more due to misinformation than it is a difference in ability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 (edited) I don't think Luke was at Sidous level, but I do think it is worth noting that Luke probably had no idea Sidous could shoot lighting from his fingers. Luke getting wreaked by Sidous I think is more due to misinformation than it is a difference in ability. Ya basically where I lie on that one... "no more training do you require, already know you that what you need" was under the impression Luke was fighting to KILL both Vader and the Emperor, and he wasnt going to throw away his sword.... both of which he didnt do, and I am so glad he didnt do, if he did do those things, he wouldnt be Luke, but ya gets you fried... and gets you a final conversation with your converted dad that no one thought was possible to convert. Edited October 30, 2015 by tunewalker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 (edited) I am not talking about potential, I am talking about what he achieved as of RotJ, I am wondering where this though of him being "average" in RotJ is coming from with the evidence that has been shown, he beat Vader, which all the current canon stuff has shown him to be comparable to Windu. There is no reason to think Vader got weaker, especially with how Yoda talks to Luke and how Luke is portrayed from ESB to RotJ. Luke Clearly got stronger from the 2 and Sidious has NEVER replaced an apprentice that did not already surpass his former apprentice (he doesnt recruit on potential alone) Several things... 1. People watched the fights thought they were slow moving and bad compared to the later duels. Even if we see some acrobatics and fast attacks/flourishes. 2. People think Luke had at best weeks of training or merely days, they don't take into account the passage of time neither from ANH to ESB to ROTJ. Where we clearly see in his introduction in ROTJ, he is vastly different than his ESB self and ESB he was different than his ANH self. 3. They don't actually follow the many, many quotes said about Luke by 3 of the most powerful dudes in the movies throughout ESB and ROTJ. "There is a great disturbance in the Force. We have a new enemy."- Sidious ESB "Search your feelings Lord Vader, you will know it to be true. He could destroy us." - Sidious ESB "The Force is strong with him. The son of Skywalker must not become a Jedi." "If he could be turned, he would be a powerful ally." "Yes....he'd be a great asset, can it be done?" Vader-Sidious ESB "You have learned much young one." "Impressive, most impressive." - Vader ESB "No more training do you require, already know you, that which you need."- Yoda ROTJ "He has grown strong, only together can we turn him to the dark side of the Force.- Sidious ROTJ "I see you've constructed a new lightsaber. Your skills are complete, indeed you are powerful as the Emperor as forseen."- Vader ROTJ These quotes alone would put him above the likes of any other Jedi that were currently hidden in the galaxy. Sidious deemed none of those guys a threat, but Luke was considered as a threat to both him and Vader. Edited October 30, 2015 by Wolfninjajedi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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