Swarlesx Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 I was talking about Star Wars with a friend of mine recently and he made the claim the Luke during ROTJ was one of the worst Jedi Knights to have lived. I think his statement is completely wrong but I don't really know how to gauge Lukes abilities by ROTJ. So how powerful was he at the time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadDutchman Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 He is one of the most powerful. Want proof? he beat Vader, who singlehandedly destroyed some of the greatest Jedi Masters Just because the swordfighting looks kinda weak in ROTJ, that doesn't mean it actually is canonically, that's just old movies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 He is one of the most powerful. Want proof? he beat Vader, who singlehandedly destroyed some of the greatest Jedi Masters Just because the swordfighting looks kinda weak in ROTJ, that doesn't mean it actually is canonically, that's just old movies This. Although if you're going by Legends, Luke by ROTJ is pretty good both saber and Force wise. Going by the canon now? Not much has been shown yet, so we have yet to see where he stands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pirana Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 (edited) I was talking about Star Wars with a friend of mine recently and he made the claim the Luke during ROTJ was one of the worst Jedi Knights to have lived. I think his statement is completely wrong but I don't really know how to gauge Lukes abilities by ROTJ. So how powerful was he at the time? Disregarding the old EU, simply because it no longer exists, he's not far off. Who exactly did Luke beat? He beat Vader, not much of a challenge there, considering how many times Vader/Anakin lost. Run the numbers. Regarding the actual question. How powerful was he? No one knows, because he was never truly challenged in those movies, other than the old men, Vader and Palp. Of course Palp nearly destroyed him, only real challenge, and he lost. Edited October 30, 2015 by Pirana Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 Disregarding the old EU, simply because it no longer exists, he's not far off. Who exactly did Luke beat? He beat Vader, not much of a challenge there, considering how many times Vader/Anakin lost. Run the numbers. Regarding the actual question. How powerful was he? No one knows, because he was never truly challenged in those movies, other than the old men, Vader and Palp. Of course Palp nearly destroyed him, only real challenge, and he lost. Check out Vader, in Canon Material... Star Wars Rebels, the new Star Wars Canon comics... beating Vader is huge, Vader/ Anakin beat Dooku who could beat countless Jedi, Vader makes Kannan and Ezra look like children after Kannan defeated the Grand Inquisitor, and Palpatine is the most powerful sith of all time, and Luke didnt fight him, Luke tossed his saber aside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 (edited) Check out Vader, in Canon Material... Star Wars Rebels, the new Star Wars Canon comics... beating Vader is huge, Vader/ Anakin beat Dooku who could beat countless Jedi, Vader makes Kannan and Ezra look like children after Kannan defeated the Grand Inquisitor, and Palpatine is the most powerful sith of all time, and Luke didnt fight him, Luke tossed his saber aside. Gonna be even bigger when Vader down comes and he cuts loose against the Alliance and Vader is noted as being > to Anakin now so...yeah. But yeah, canon Luke himself hasn't shown much yet...though he can shape up to be something since he's currently fighting 2 Magnaguards and gonna be fighting some huge *** creature. Edited October 30, 2015 by Wolfninjajedi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pirana Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 Check out Vader, in Canon Material... Star Wars Rebels, the new Star Wars Canon comics... beating Vader is huge, Vader/ Anakin beat Dooku who could beat countless Jedi, Vader makes Kannan and Ezra look like children after Kannan defeated the Grand Inquisitor, and Palpatine is the most powerful sith of all time, and Luke didnt fight him, Luke tossed his saber aside. Dooku, an old man was really challenging right? Regarding your last statement, I never mentioned that he fought him, but he was nearly destroyed. If Luke was so powerful, he would have defeated both, which he did not, with or without a saber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhyltran Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 Dooku, an old man was really challenging right? Regarding your last statement, I never mentioned that he fought him, but he was nearly destroyed. If Luke was so powerful, he would have defeated both, which he did not, with or without a saber. Dooku was just about stronger than nearly anyone in his era. Did you watch TCW? There weren't many who are a match for him. Vader in the new Disney Canon blew apart three X-wings with a gesture. Lifted two AT-ST's as they fell on him off the ground effortlessly with one hand and more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 Dooku, an old man was really challenging right? Regarding your last statement, I never mentioned that he fought him, but he was nearly destroyed. If Luke was so powerful, he would have defeated both, which he did not, with or without a saber. Dooku, historically beat Obi-wan, Anakin, held his own against Yoda in episode 2 and has pretty much made a mockery against every opponent he has ran up against for most of the Clone wars series, which is canon... So that old man is one of the most powerful people of all time, so yes Really Challenging. Luke was not as powerful as Sidious, he may have been able to beat him if he had his weapon, but again Sidious has never been beaten by any one in the lore, saber or not. Savage and Maul vs Sidious and Sidious Trashed them, 4 Jedi Masters including the Master of the Order Windu (he is the master of the Order, Yoda is the grand master) and Sidious dispatches 3 of them in seconds and then goes on to face off against Windu who while Windu was a better saber duelist according to the novel which is the same as the movie, Windu would have eventually been killed by Sidious's Lightning, Sidious was feigning weakness, and finally he ultimately defeated Yoda the most powerful Jedi in the current canon losing to him with out a weapon doesnt make some one weak, it doesnt make some one anything, even if we look into EU material Sidious would Trash just about everyone who doesnt have a weapon with just force powers and even if they had a weapon they would still get trashed by him. Not beating Sidious with out a weapon is not weakness, and age has absolutely nothing to do with it. https://youtu.be/HMUKGTkiWik?t=50 you are focused way to much on the physical, I think some one needs to go back and watch the original trilogy and understand the teachings of the force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 (edited) Dooku was just about stronger than nearly anyone in his era. Did you watch TCW? There weren't many who are a match for him. Vader in the new Disney Canon blew apart three X-wings with a gesture. Lifted two AT-ST's as they fell on him off the ground effortlessly with one hand and more. https://youtu.be/BXoJeLDyVBY?t=200 Edited October 30, 2015 by tunewalker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pirana Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 Dooku was just about stronger than nearly anyone in his era. Did you watch TCW? There weren't many who are a match for him. Vader in the new Disney Canon blew apart three X-wings with a gesture. Lifted two AT-ST's as they fell on him off the ground effortlessly with one hand and more. Don't watch cartoons. I'll give it an episode or two then move on. Exactly what does Vader blowing apart some ships or lifting something up, have to do with fighting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 Dooku was just about stronger than nearly anyone in his era. Did you watch TCW? There weren't many who are a match for him. Vader in the new Disney Canon blew apart three X-wings with a gesture. Lifted two AT-ST's as they fell on him off the ground effortlessly with one hand and more. Also crushing an AT-AT too. But yeah....can't wait for Vader Down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhyltran Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 (edited) Don't watch cartoons. I'll give it an episode or two then move on. Exactly what does Vader blowing apart some ships or lifting something up, have to do with fighting? The fact that Luke would need to be strong enough to content with that level in order to stand a chance? Because force users can augment their strength/speed with the force? We also have comics of Vader leaping/flipping behind his opponent. He was a lot more acrobatic and agile than people give him credit for. Not to mention we saw how quick and fast The Inquisitor was and he was beyond them. He also fought Kanan and treated him like a child in his fight. Completely dominating him casually. To the point where he maneuvered behind him and shoved him. There's literally no indication that he's any slower or weaker than he was as Anakin Skywalker. This is all part of the new canon btw. Edited October 30, 2015 by Rhyltran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pirana Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 Dooku, historically beat Obi-wan, Anakin, held his own against Yoda in episode 2 and has pretty much made a mockery against every opponent he has ran up against for most of the Clone wars series, which is canon... So that old man is one of the most powerful people of all time, so yes Really Challenging. Luke was not as powerful as Sidious, he may have been able to beat him if he had his weapon, but again Sidious has never been beaten by any one in the lore, saber or not. Savage and Maul vs Sidious and Sidious Trashed them, 4 Jedi Masters including the Master of the Order Windu (he is the master of the Order, Yoda is the grand master) and Sidious dispatches 3 of them in seconds and then goes on to face off against Windu who while Windu was a better saber duelist according to the novel which is the same as the movie, Windu would have eventually been killed by Sidious's Lightning, Sidious was feigning weakness, and finally he ultimately defeated Yoda the most powerful Jedi in the current canon losing to him with out a weapon doesnt make some one weak, it doesnt make some one anything, even if we look into EU material Sidious would Trash just about everyone who doesnt have a weapon with just force powers and even if they had a weapon they would still get trashed by him. Not beating Sidious with out a weapon is not weakness, and age has absolutely nothing to do with it. https://youtu.be/HMUKGTkiWik?t=50 you are focused way to much on the physical, I think some one needs to go back and watch the original trilogy and understand the teachings of the force. Historically and Lore, speaks volumes as to your thought process. Throw it out. It doesn't exist. Your last statement, appears you might need to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swarlesx Posted October 30, 2015 Author Share Posted October 30, 2015 Check out Vader, in Canon Material... Star Wars Rebels, the new Star Wars Canon comics... beating Vader is huge, Vader/ Anakin beat Dooku who could beat countless Jedi, Vader makes Kannan and Ezra look like children after Kannan defeated the Grand Inquisitor, and Palpatine is the most powerful sith of all time, and Luke didnt fight him, Luke tossed his saber aside. I agree that beating Vader is a big deal but you have to remember that ROTJ Vader is not ESB Vader. He was conflicted at the time. It leaves me to wonder if Luke could have defeated his father in an all out fight at the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 (edited) The fact that Luke would need to be strong enough to content with that level in order to stand a chance? Because force users can augment their strength/speed with the force? We also have comics of Vader leaping/flipping behind his opponent. He was a lot more acrobatic and agile than people give him credit for. Not to mention we saw how quick and fast The Inquisitor was and he was beyond them. He also fought Kanan and treated him like a child in his fight. Completely dominating him casually. To the point where he maneuvered behind him and shoved him. There's literally no indication that he's any slower or weaker than he was as Anakin Skywalker. This is all part of the new canon btw. He's stronger than Anakin as per LoS. VADER COMPLETED HIS MEDITATION and opened his eyes. His pale, flame-savaged face stared back at him from out of the reflective black surface of his pressurized meditation chamber. Without the neural connection to his armor, he was conscious of the stumps of his legs, the ruin of his arm, the perpetual pain in his flesh. He welcomed it. Pain fed his hate, and hate fed his strength. Once, as a Jedi, he had meditated to find peace. Now he meditated to sharpen the edges of his anger. He stared at his reflection a long time. His injuries had deformed his body, left it a ruin, but they’d perfected his spirit, strengthening his connection to the Force. Suffering had birthed insight. -- Lords Of The Sith and Palps is still weary of his potential. Somewhere in the back of Palpatine's mind, he knows what Vader's potential is. He feels he may be wrong, but he is wary of it. So he's very interested in determining his ability to manipulate Vader and testing his loyalty and assuring himself that this tiger that he holds by the tail is going to stay that way. -- Insider 157 So literally, this whole suit thing is just a mentality of sorts. Edited October 30, 2015 by Wolfninjajedi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 (edited) Historically and Lore, speaks volumes as to your thought process. Throw it out. It doesn't exist. Your last statement, appears you might need to. Actually it does exist... We have 6 movies, several cartoons, and several comics that are all part of "DISNEY CANON" IE current history and Canon for Star Wars... what I am talking about was not the stuff that was thrown out, the last thing I linked you also showed exactly why your focus on age was simple minded and wrong. "Size matters not, judge me by my size do you? and where you should not, for my ally is the Force and a powerful ally it is, life creates it makes it grow Luminous beings are we not this Crude matter" (meaning the physical make up of the individual is meaningless to the force, Midiclorian counts are based on number per cell, the number of cells does not matter according to Yoda in Empire strikes back with the 'size matters not' Speech, what also doesnt matter is age, because "lumious beings are we not this crude matter" Edited October 30, 2015 by tunewalker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 (edited) I agree that beating Vader is a big deal but you have to remember that ROTJ Vader is not ESB Vader. He was conflicted at the time. It leaves me to wonder if Luke could have defeated his father in an all out fight at the time. Correct, he is not ESB Vader he is RotJ Vader and RotJ Vader is stronger, according to the information we have for RotJ (namely what was on screen and the Novelization which was a translation of what was on screen) Vader was stronger then ever in RotJ and was not holding back, just as he claimed he wasnt ("there is no conflict, if you will not fight, then you will meet your destiny") he did not IMMEDIATELY turn on the emperor, he thought for a good long while before hand, until then he was giving it his all to force Luke into a fight, to force Luke into using the Dark Side, and Physically and Force power wise, Vader wasnt strong enough to Force Luke to use the dark side, he wasnt strong enough to force Luke to fight all out, he had to threaten Luke's sister to get that. Edited October 30, 2015 by tunewalker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pirana Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 The fact that Luke would need to be strong enough to content with that level in order to stand a chance? Because force users can augment their strength/speed with the force? We also have comics of Vader leaping/flipping behind his opponent. He was a lot more acrobatic and agile than people give him credit for. Not to mention we saw how quick and fast The Inquisitor was and he was beyond them. He also fought Kanan and treated him like a child in his fight. Completely dominating him casually. To the point where he maneuvered behind him and shoved him. There's literally no indication that he's any slower or weaker than he was as Anakin Skywalker. This is all part of the new canon btw. Still defending why Luke didn't win. Scoreboard. You can throw out all the excuses you want.. He lost. Although you have peaked my interests in the new cartoon/canon, might have to check them out On Demand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 Still defending why Luke didn't win. Scoreboard. You can throw out all the excuses you want.. He lost. Although you have peaked my interests in the new cartoon/canon, might have to check them out On Demand. He did win, against Vader he trashed him, against Sidious it wasnt a fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pirana Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 He did win, against Vader he trashed him, against Sidious it wasnt a fight. Correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhyltran Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 (edited) Still defending why Luke didn't win. Scoreboard. You can throw out all the excuses you want.. He lost. Although you have peaked my interests in the new cartoon/canon, might have to check them out On Demand. Luke did win. He beat Vader. Legitimately beat Vader. He lost to Sidious who is outright stated to be the most powerful Sith of all time. Sidious who defeated Yoda. Defeated Mace. The best Jedi the order had ever seen. Sidious who was cornered by the majority of the jedi council and trounced them with ease. No, Luke in ROTJ was not Sidious level but he did beat Vader. Vader who was legitimately powerful. More powerful than he was as Anakin. In saber skill and force powers. To be fair most aren't Sidious level. Not even Darth Vader. ROTJ Luke would be able to contest with Dooku, Darth Maul, Ventress, Obi Wan Kenobi, Anakin, Windu, and more. If that's weak then 99% of Jedi are weak but that would still make Luke far away from the "Weakest of all time." Edited October 30, 2015 by Rhyltran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 Luke did win. He beat Vader. Legitimately beat Vader. He lost to Sidious who is outright stated to be the most powerful Sith of all time. Sidious who defeated Yoda. Defeated Mace. The best Jedi the order had ever seen. Sidious who was cornered by the majority of the jedi council and trounced them with ease. No, Luke in ROTJ was not Sidious level but he did beat Vader. Vader who was legitimately powerful. More powerful than he was as Anakin. In saber skill and force powers. To be fair most aren't Sidious level. Not even Darth Vader. Basically not being Sidious level does not make some one "one of the weakest jedi of all time" if that was the measuring stick every single jedi in the movies would be "one of hte weakest jedi of all time", which totally contradicts itself, how can every one be one of the weakest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swarlesx Posted October 30, 2015 Author Share Posted October 30, 2015 Correct, he is not ESB Vader he is RotJ Vader and RotJ Vader is stronger, according to the information we have for RotJ (namely what was on screen and the Novelization which was a translation of what was on screen) Vader was stronger then ever in RotJ and was not holding back, just as he claimed he wasnt ("there is no conflict, if you will not fight, then you will meet your destiny") he did not IMMEDIATELY turn on the emperor, he thought for a good long while before hand, until then he was giving it his all to force Luke into a fight, to force Luke into using the Dark Side, and Physically and Force power wise, Vader wasnt strong enough to Force Luke to use the dark side, he wasnt strong enough to force Luke to fight all out, he had to threaten Luke's sister to get that. ESB Vader was his prime in the films. In ROTJ he was conflicted over what Luke had told him. When Luke and company were traveling to Endor Vader could sense him on the transport. But when Luke was hiding in the dark during their dual Vader couldn't find him. Vaders mind wasn't clear during their fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pirana Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 Luke did win. He beat Vader. Legitimately beat Vader. He lost to Sidious who is outright stated to be the most powerful Sith of all time. Sidious who defeated Yoda. Defeated Mace. The best Jedi the order had ever seen. Sidious who was cornered by the majority of the jedi council and trounced them with ease. No, Luke in ROTJ was not Sidious level but he did beat Vader. Vader who was legitimately powerful. More powerful than he was as Anakin. In saber skill and force powers. To be fair most aren't Sidious level. Not even Darth Vader. ROTJ Luke would be able to contest with Dooku, Darth Maul, Ventress, Obi Wan Kenobi, Anakin, Windu, and more. If that's weak then 99% of Jedi are weak but that would still make Luke far away from the "Weakest of all time." As stated earlier, yes Luke beat Vader then lost to Palp, who all but destroyed by him. Until the new movies or canon reveal more, Luke is average. OP friend is right on the money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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