jcurri Posted October 25, 2015 Share Posted October 25, 2015 *possible spoilers* The emperor... who the hell did you defeat as the knight at the end of the class quest if he's been at Zakuul?? Why does he need Yavin 4 if he's already corporeal? I mean, I could go on and on... *** BIOWARE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhyltran Posted October 25, 2015 Share Posted October 25, 2015 *possible spoilers* The emperor... who the hell did you defeat as the knight at the end of the class quest if he's been at Zakuul?? Why does he need Yavin 4 if he's already corporeal? I mean, I could go on and on... *** BIOWARE. You clearly haven't been paying attention. You fought the voice. An entity controlled by Valkorion and he can speak/act through. Who did you fight on Ziost? Valkorion controlling multiple bodies at once. He wasn't trying to become corporeal. Just trying to get more power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeneas_Falco Posted October 25, 2015 Share Posted October 25, 2015 (edited) The Voices are the Emperor. The Sith Warrior's codex entry on them says that they contain the Emperor's consciousness. Darth Marr also mentions in Shadow of Revan that the Emperor's spirit was wounded in the duel with the Jedi Knight. That a Voice actually contains the Emperor's consciousness and isn't controlled externally, like say the indoctrinated in Mass Effect, does seem to create some issues with the Zakuul story. On the other hand KotFE isn't finished yet and we've only played through the first few chapters. Maybe we'll get a lore dump that the Emperor's spirit could be more than one place at once or that it was divided into separate entities, similar to Revan's ghost. Edited October 25, 2015 by Aeneas_Falco Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gibmachine Posted October 25, 2015 Share Posted October 25, 2015 Have you played MGS5 by any chance OP? The Emperor you defeat at the end of JK class quest is basically (huge MGS spoiler ahead) Venom Snake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PoliteAssasin Posted October 25, 2015 Share Posted October 25, 2015 Guy doesn't pay attention to the story, explains lack of understanding as plot holes. Seems legit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diviciacus Posted October 25, 2015 Share Posted October 25, 2015 The Voices are the Emperor. The Sith Warrior's codex entry on them says that they contain the Emperor's consciousness. Darth Marr also mentions in Shadow of Revan that the Emperor's spirit was wounded in the duel with the Jedi Knight. That a Voice actually contains the Emperor's consciousness and isn't controlled externally, like say the indoctrinated in Mass Effect, does seem to create some issues with the Zakuul story. On the other hand KotFE isn't finished yet and we've only played through the first few chapters. Maybe we'll get a lore dump that the Emperor's spirit could be more than one place at once or that it was divided into separate entities, similar to Revan's ghost. What happens is that Vitiate's original body is long since dust, and he uses a Voice as a corporeal vessel (he's basically possessing a victim). He was using a Voss host as a Voice until the Warrior killed it in mid-Chapter 3 to free Vitiate from being shackled TO Voss (planet). The Knight, in their Chapter 3 climax, kills the replacement Voice. Then he disappears until Yavin IIII's moon. It's possible Valkorion is another Voice, or simply a powerful person non-corporeal Vitiate encountered and was able to mentally dominate. We don't really know exactly what the relationship between Vitiate and Valkorion is (other than being the same person, but we do not know how.) Another possibility I hadn't considered (but thought of while writing this) is that the Sith Lord Vitiate, who survived the Great Hyperspace War and led the remnants of the Sith Empire to the long-forgotten Dromund system is in fact already permanently dead. We know he wiped the original Dark Council out on Nathema to make himself immortal. But who is to say that he did not long ago encounter Valkorion, who defeated him and, crucially, assumed his place? We know virtually nothing of Vitiate's history between Nathema and SOR, except for a small slice of time 300 years before TOR (KOTOR+Revan novel). If this encounter was before that... "Vitiate" may have been a lie this entire time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cythereal Posted October 25, 2015 Share Posted October 25, 2015 It's also possible the Emperor is capable of possessing more than one body at a time, and the Valkorion shard of his self grew into a different individual than the Vitiate shard after the initial possession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karkais Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 (edited) You clearly haven't been paying attention. You fought the voice. An entity controlled by Valkorion and he can speak/act through. Who did you fight on Ziost? Valkorion controlling multiple bodies at once. He wasn't trying to become corporeal. Just trying to get more power. Or he hasn't played the other class stories, specifically sith warrior. It's also possible the Emperor is capable of possessing more than one body at a time This is pretty clear ingame, since Emperor has done exactly that in different class stories, especially Jedi knight and Jedi consular. Possessing no more or less than Jedi knight him/herself in addition to a bunch of other jedi masters. Edited October 26, 2015 by Karkais Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pietrastor Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 (edited) It's possible Valkorion is another Voice Isn't it what Senya basically spells out for the players? She talks how he was distant for extended periods of time and ignoring her/children for weeks. Same as he was distant and ignoring the Empire camped at the Citadel for weeks. The old man who's father of Arcann may be something different NOW, but seems pretty clear he was just another voice Emperor was 'jumping' to when he saw fit. Timeline seem to be as follow: - Nathema disaster - Emperor's "soul" gains immortality, from now on he jumps from a Voice to another Voice as he sees fit, minus the Voss incident - Knight Act 3 - Voice gets killed, it damages his soul, goes dormant on Yavin IV back to original body - deaths on Yavin cause him to awake and no longer need a physical body - final Ziost 'power up' From that moment he seems to be not concerned about his Voices getting killed at all, heck, he says he doesn't need Voices anymore. Likely he goes back to old man on Zakuul body just because he feels like it, just like he goes inside Outlander body because he feels like it. Edited October 26, 2015 by Pietrastor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RameiArashi Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 If you talk to Marr as a jedi knight during Shadow of Revan he says you killed the emperor not the emperor's voice. Its the Hand who claim jedi killed the Voiice, and the Hand lies to the Wrath all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pietrastor Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 If you talk to Marr as a jedi knight during Shadow of Revan he says you killed the emperor not the emperor's voice. Its the Hand who claim jedi killed the Voiice, and the Hand lies to the Wrath all the time. ? Emperor is well and alive in KOTFE so its time for people to let go finally of this idea that Knight killed Emperor fully Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diviciacus Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 If you talk to Marr as a jedi knight during Shadow of Revan he says you killed the emperor not the emperor's voice. Its the Hand who claim jedi killed the Voiice, and the Hand lies to the Wrath all the time. No, Marr straight up says that the Knight slew his body and perhaps wounded him more than any other before, but says nothing about actually killing him. In fact, I almost want to say that Marr isn't aware of the Voice as physical form. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pietrastor Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 No, Marr straight up says that the Knight slew his body and perhaps wounded him more than any other before, but says nothing about actually killing him. In fact, I almost want to say that Marr isn't aware of the Voice as physical form. Ditto. In any case, I will give BW props for handling Emperor better in KOTFE then previously BUT... he still needs a lot of 'work'. This "simple artist/experience love/greatest civilization building" nonsense is just weak-sauce excuse for his mass-murdering ways. They better come up with something good. And not just "to understand life" or anything like that, c'mon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PoliteAssasin Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 Ditto. In any case, I will give BW props for handling Emperor better in KOTFE then previously BUT... he still needs a lot of 'work'. This "simple artist/experience love/greatest civilization building" nonsense is just weak-sauce excuse for his mass-murdering ways. They better come up with something good. And not just "to understand life" or anything like that, c'mon. Well as valkorion said, why is it so inconceivable that he evolved? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pietrastor Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 Well as valkorion said, why is it so inconceivable that he evolved? 'Cause all I hear is "writing block/restart because of lack of idea what to do anymore" when concept like that pop up instead of being immersed within the story and 'buying' the villain and his arc. You can't really take a Space Hitler character and turn it into loving Good King "just 'cause" or "power of love"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PoliteAssasin Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 'Cause all I hear is "writing block/restart because of lack of idea what to do anymore" when concept like that pop up instead of being immersed within the story and 'buying' the villain and his arc. You can't really take a Space Hitler character and turn it into loving Good King "just 'cause" or "power of love"... It isn't "just cause". He explains it in the expansion, it seems some people aren't paying much attention. The same people who act as if there are no choices and consequences I suspect. I recommend players record their playthroughs for review, because many seem to be forgetting what they were told/what happens when you take an alternate path. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shayddow Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 <<You can't really take a Space Hitler character and turn it into loving Good King "just 'cause" or "power of love"... >> I don't think he's really changed. I mean, you can almost hear SWs Palpatine orVader in there... "You can only defeat ***** if you use my power" - "only together" sounds an Awful lot like - "Use the dark side", "only together can we defeat him..." hehe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PoliteAssasin Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 I don't think he's strictly good, but he isn't strictly evil either. He seems down the middle, in the gray area. Remember this is the former sith emperor who now disapproves if you say you want to kill every last jedi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karkais Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 (edited) Firstly: I should remind people that this thread should be in spoilers forum. But who is to say that he did not long ago encounter Valkorion, who defeated him and, crucially, assumed his place? We know virtually nothing of Vitiate's history between Nathema and SOR, except for a small slice of time 300 years before TOR (KOTOR+Revan novel). If this encounter was before that... "Vitiate" may have been a lie this entire time. Its an interesting theory. There are indeed large gaps in Vitiates activity during the timeline that we know, especially during the years between "Revan" novel and start of SWTOR story. Pretty much whatever could have happened during those years, even Vitiate travelling elsewhere. This theory however has an issue. Vitiate is debatably the strongest force-user ever. How could someone have defeated him? Revan, Meetra Surik, Scourge and T3-M4 tried together... they failed. As of now he is basically unkillable and has become a massive plot device. 'Cause all I hear is "writing block/restart because of lack of idea what to do anymore" when concept like that pop up instead of being immersed within the story and 'buying' the villain and his arc. You can't really take a Space Hitler character and turn it into loving Good King "just 'cause" or "power of love"... Yes, I agree. KOTFE is obviously a story reset. However, its such a well-intentioned one, I'm willing to let it slide since Valkorion is a much better character than a one-dimensional omnicidal maniac. I still wish there was less hand-waving and more coherent story though. As for how to explain the change, I have some theories: 1.) Valkorion and Vitiate of SoR are two separate aspects of same entity. Vitiate at some point in history split his consciousness into two (hopefully no more) pieces, one of which inhabited voice of the emperor, another took control of Valkorion. In favor of this theory: (SoR spoilers) Revan has already demonstrably split into two separate entities in SoR 2.) Valkorion was a strong force-user originally, Vitiate tried to take control of him, but they somehow mystically 'merged' becoming more than a sum of its parts. I first thought that Valkorion might have somehow tricked Vitiate into submission (a previous example exists: powerful dark side entity Sel-Makor of planet Voss already got the better of Vitiate once, imprisoning him, in SW story), but I abandoned this idea since Valkorions dialog to my Wrath in KOTFE gives a strong feeling that he indeed is the true emperor that has been following my progress over the course of the whole game. 3.) Then I suppose we could just take Valkorion's words as truth and accept that eating Ziost somehow made him 'ascend' and he is now 'content', no longer wishing to devour the rest of the galaxy of its life. I am reluctant to accept this, since it would create more issues. Firstly, emperor would be rapidly approaching the status of a god-mode sue, taking all excitement away. Secondly, it still leaves a question of who and what Valkorion was before Vitiate took over, since Valkorion had already had a family and kingdom and everything BEFORE the destruction of Ziost. Not to mention that in all interaction with Valkorion, he still talks to outlander as 'Valkorion' rather than Vitiate. Why the prolonged attempt of trickery? Didn't our characters already claim multiple times that they know who he is? Edited October 26, 2015 by Karkais Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenesi Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 So, can somebody explain to me, how he went from "I want to devour galaxy, become immortal and forever travel universe" (which was pretty awesome goal for your tipical bad guy) to "I have 2 sons and doughter, and want to build perfect society". It's safe to assume that it's Valkoiron we confront as Knight, and everything he says to us doesn't fall in line with his KotFE behavior. Also, Revan was merged with him for 200+ years. How comes he never suspected emperor's split personality? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karkais Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 (edited) So, can somebody explain to me, how he went from "I want to devour galaxy, become immortal and forever travel universe" (which was pretty awesome goal for your tipical bad guy) to "I have 2 sons and doughter, and want to build perfect society". It's safe to assume that it's Valkoiron we confront as Knight, and everything he says to us doesn't fall in line with his KotFE behavior. You know what, Ive been trying to comprehend it myself for a week now, lol. See my previous post. Also, Revan was merged with him for 200+ years. How comes he never suspected emperor's split personality? Not merged. He was emperors prisoner, in corporeal form the whole time. (foundry flashpoint spoilers, even if unlikely to be needed ) Revans body stays in one piece all the way until Foundry flashpoint where he finally becomes one with the force Edited October 26, 2015 by Karkais Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karkais Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 Interesting tidbit scoured from wookiepedia discussion, referring to an interview with BW. I know you guys are hard at work right now, but according to this information, The staff is implying that Valkorion was the original body of the Emperor, not Vitiate. "Question: Will we ever get to see the Emperor in his original true body as a pureblood? (starts at 45:58) Answer: Jesse Sky says ‘One of the great things about the Emperor is that he is all powerful. He can take many forms. That’s all I’m willing to say’. Musco says ‘Stay tuned’. Michael Backus chimes in ‘What if his trueblood form isn’t his original actual form? What if there is more to the story?’ Musco ‘insert eyebrow raise’." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenesi Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 Not merged. He was emperors prisoner, in corporeal form the whole time. (foundry flashpoint spoilers, even if unlikely to be needed ) Not exactly merged, yes, but Revan states that, while emperor was in his mind, he was in Emperor's mind too, being able to affect him enough to force peace treaty between Empire and Republic. Yet he never suspects the existance of Valkoiron? I mean, I know we are probably discussing another example of lazy writing. But it would be nice to find at least some kind of answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DudeinFlames Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 No, Marr straight up says that the Knight slew his body and perhaps wounded him more than any other before, but says nothing about actually killing him. In fact, I almost want to say that Marr isn't aware of the Voice as physical form. I'm pretty sure the Dark Council knows what the Emperor's Voice is. He's been using them for hundreds of years now to speak for him. What they weren't aware of was that Vitiate most likely doesn't have a real body that he specifically is tied to, besides Valkorion, roaming about anywhere. If he did, it was likely the one that was killed in the Dark Temple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deakon Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 (edited) At this moment, I think there there is not enough information to form a conclusion regarding the Emperor (which I know is obvious, but still). I mean, even when we knew him as Vitiate, the guy was still very much enigmatic. We had no empirical evidence as to the limits of his power, or pretty much any other aspect of him. For instance, on Ziost I FULLY believed our actions made a difference in some way... then yeah, stuff happened and I was proved woefully incorrect. It really doesn't matter is Valkorion is his 'real' body or not, to the Emperor its almost semantics. What matters is the why of it which I think somewhat determined by examining when things happened. The following isn't necessarily 100% accurate but whatever... its close enough: 1) Sith Empire is rebuilt 2) Empire of Zakuul is being built (Emperors real focus now) 3) Sith Empire Returns (Revan does his mind game stuff with the Emperor) 4) Class story stuff (Sith Emperor really stops caring about the Empire and resumes his empire building in Zakuul) 5) Emperor is disappointed in pretty much everything he's created (Including his sons ala KOTFE Trailer) 6) SOR happens 7) Emperor says !@#% it I'm eating this stupid galaxy and living elsewhere 8) Ziost happens, and -we- peek the Emperors interest 9) Emperor has a new project and orchestrates events to lead us into Zakuul space (Trailers) 10) KOTFE I really don't think the Emperor cares to much about ruling the Galaxy anymore. He seems beyond 'petty' goals like that now, instead it seems like he is more interested in how people interact with one another (but especially the outlander). This is evident in pretty much every conversation you have with him in the expansion... from our interactions with Senya, to how we handle his offers of power. He keeps saying how we are not bound to destiny etc, and I think he views us as a kindred spirit or such thing. Or I'm completely wrong. This is all conjecture anyhow... Edited October 26, 2015 by Deakon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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