Vaapad

[cs_zoltan]

Because of the CV Windu lowballing I deciced to make a thread about Vaapad.

 

A lot of people either overhype it, or try to lowball it. Overhypers say that Mace beat Sidious, so he can beat anyone. Lowballers say that because he wasn't stomping in his other duels during the Clone Wars, Mace can't use the superconducting loop at will, and it was a one time occurence.

 

Well I think they are both wrong. Let's start with the lowballers:

 

Superconducting loop

 

Vaapad was stated to be a channel for darkness. Windu's darkness, as well as his opponent's.

 

Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways. He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center—

And let it fountain out again.

—Revenge of the Sith

 

Vaapad made him an open channel, half of a superconducting loop completed by the shadow;

—Revenge of the Sith

 

Mace didn't have time to comprehend what Palpatine was talking about; he had time only to slip back into Vaapad and angle his blade to catch the forking arcs of pure, dazzling hatred that clawed toward him.

 

Because Vaapad is more than a fighting style. It is a state of mind: a channel for darkness. Power passed into him and out again without touching him.

And the circuit completed itself: the lightning reflected back to its source.

—Revenge of the Sith

 

Some say this was only possible, because Mace had onther amp. His inner darkness. Once he learned that Palpatine was Sidious his inner darkness reached a level that he can't call on any time. This is true, Mace was amped twice over. But how is that makes sense? Why would Mace's amp turn Vaapad into something it's not? Does Anakin's telekinesis turns into Force Lightning when he's in rage compared to his standard level? Hell no.

 

They also try to reinforce this notion with Mace's other duels. Let's take a look at them.

 

1. Depa Billaba
   
2. Sora Bulq
   
3. Asajj Ventress
   
4. Kar Vastor
   
5. Count Dooku
   
6. Darth Maul
   
7. Mother Talzin
   
8. General Grievous
   

 

1.

This was the turning point for Mace. Before this he was afraid of his inner darkness so he restrained himself.

 

There was a time when Mace Windu had feared the power of the dark; there was a time when he had feared the darkness in himself. But the Clone Wars had given him a gift of understanding: on a world called Haruun Kal, he had faced his darkness and had learned that the power of darkness is not to be feared.

He had learned that it is fear that gives the darkness power.

—Revenge of the Sith

 

Other than that, in this duel he was injured, holding back (even beyond the above quote), and he was on a dark side nexus. Hardly indicative that he can't form a superconducting loop.

 

2-4.

These were all before the Depa duel, when Mace acknowledged he feared his darkness. He wouldn't have given himself over to Vaapad.

 

5-6.

And these duels were too short to draw any meaningful conclusion from them. Not to mention that Mace wanted to capture Dooku, not kill him. Going full Vaapad is no joke.

 

There was no Jedi restraint here.

Mace Windu was cutting loose.

Mace was deep in it now: submerged in Vaapad, swallowed by it, he no longer truly existed as an independent being.

—Revenge of the Sith

 

Why would he do something so evidently dangerous when he wanted only to capture the Count? Well he might've actually, we simply don't know. Even with Vaapad Mace won't simply blitz, and for anything else these duels were too short.

 

7.

All things considred Mace actually fared pretty well here. Weakened or not Talzin is a powerhouse who can go toe to toe with Darth Sidious.

 

Also yet again this duel was short, and most of it was off screen. Mace likely wasn't actually pushed back, but used Sokan to lure Talzin away from the altar. In the end you can see them in a saber lock, and Mace wasn't giving ground.

 

8.

Grievous is a non-force sensitive cyborg. Nothing to draw on. 'Nuff said.

 

 

So that's the counter to the lowballer's notion that Windu can't form a superconducting loop at will with Vaapad. Now for the overhypers:

 

The amp's magnitude

 

I won't get into the whole "Windu vs Sidious, who really won?" debate, I'll just point out a few things. Mace was amped by his inner darkness beyond the standard level, he was amped by Sidious' darkness, and in the end by Anakin's fear. Yet it was still not enough.

 

"You're the chosen one, Anakin," Mace said, his voice going thin with strain. This was beyond Vaapad; he had no strength left to fight against his own blade. "Take him. It's your destiny.'"

—Revenge of the Sith

 

So it seems Vaapad is not a trump card against dark siders. Mace still gets an amp out of them and can use it to fuel his demanding form, but it won't necessarily put him on their level. A small power gap he could bridge, but not like what was in RotS.

[sartt]

Because of the CV Windu lowballing I deciced to make a thread about Vaapad.

 

A lot of people either overhype it, or try to lowball it. Overhypers say that Mace beat Sidious, so he can beat anyone. Lowballers say that because he wasn't stomping in his other duels during the Clone Wars, Mace can't use the superconducting loop at will, and it was a one time occurence.

 

Well I think they are both wrong. Let's start with the lowballers:

 

Superconducting loop

 

Vaapad was stated to be a channel for darkness. Windu's darkness, as well as his opponent's.

 

Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways. He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center—

And let it fountain out again.

—Revenge of the Sith

 

Vaapad made him an open channel, half of a superconducting loop completed by the shadow;

—Revenge of the Sith

 

Mace didn't have time to comprehend what Palpatine was talking about; he had time only to slip back into Vaapad and angle his blade to catch the forking arcs of pure, dazzling hatred that clawed toward him.

 

Because Vaapad is more than a fighting style. It is a state of mind: a channel for darkness. Power passed into him and out again without touching him.

And the circuit completed itself: the lightning reflected back to its source.

—Revenge of the Sith

 

Some say this was only possible, because Mace had onther amp. His inner darkness. Once he learned that Palpatine was Sidious his inner darkness reached a level that he can't call on any time. This is true, Mace was amped twice over. But how is that makes sense? Why would Mace's amp turn Vaapad into something it's not? Does Anakin's telekinesis turns into Force Lightning when he's in rage compared to his standard level? Hell no.

 

They also try to reinforce this notion with Mace's other duels. Let's take a look at them.

 

1. Depa Billaba
   
2. Sora Bulq
   
3. Asajj Ventress
   
4. Kar Vastor
   
5. Count Dooku
   
6. Darth Maul
   
7. Mother Talzin
   
8. General Grievous
   

 

1.

This was the turning point for Mace. Before this he was afraid of his inner darkness so he restrained himself.

 

There was a time when Mace Windu had feared the power of the dark; there was a time when he had feared the darkness in himself. But the Clone Wars had given him a gift of understanding: on a world called Haruun Kal, he had faced his darkness and had learned that the power of darkness is not to be feared.

He had learned that it is fear that gives the darkness power.

—Revenge of the Sith

 

Other than that, in this duel he was injured, holding back (even beyond the above quote), and he was on a dark side nexus. Hardly indicative that he can't form a superconducting loop.

 

2-4.

These were all before the Depa duel, when Mace acknowledged he feared his darkness. He wouldn't have given himself over to Vaapad.

 

5-6.

And these duels were too short to draw any meaningful conclusion from them. Not to mention that Mace wanted to capture Dooku, not kill him. Going full Vaapad is no joke.

 

There was no Jedi restraint here.

Mace Windu was cutting loose.

Mace was deep in it now: submerged in Vaapad, swallowed by it, he no longer truly existed as an independent being.

—Revenge of the Sith

 

Why would he do something so evidently dangerous when he wanted only to capture the Count? Well he might've actually, we simply don't know. Even with Vaapad Mace won't simply blitz, and for anything else these duels were too short.

 

7.

All things considred Mace actually fared pretty well here. Weakened or not Talzin is a powerhouse who can go toe to toe with Darth Sidious.

 

Also yet again this duel was short, and most of it was off screen. Mace likely wasn't actually pushed back, but used Sokan to lure Talzin away from the altar. In the end you can see them in a saber lock, and Mace wasn't giving ground.

 

8.

Grievous is a non-force sensitive cyborg. Nothing to draw on. 'Nuff said.

 

 

So that's the counter to the lowballer's notion that Windu can't form a superconducting loop at will with Vaapad. Now for the overhypers:

 

The amp's magnitude

 

I won't get into the whole "Windu vs Sidious, who really won?" debate, I'll just point out a few things. Mace was amped by his inner darkness beyond the standard level, he was amped by Sidious' darkness, and in the end by Anakin's fear. Yet it was still not enough.

 

"You're the chosen one, Anakin," Mace said, his voice going thin with strain. This was beyond Vaapad; he had no strength left to fight against his own blade. "Take him. It's your destiny.'"

—Revenge of the Sith

 

So it seems Vaapad is not a trump card against dark siders. Mace still gets an amp out of them and can use it to fuel his demanding form, but it won't necessarily put him on their level. A small power gap he could bridge, but not like what was in RotS.

 

You are wrong. about everything you have said just said and will say in the future. Mace Windu won the duel , and sidious would have lost. Sidious was on the ground begging for mercy if anakin never showed up mace windu would have killed him. Vaapad is by far the strongest fighting style to use against the dark side, because it uses the negative energy from the enemy he fights, and then his own skill / power on top of that. Sidious had no chance, except plot armor.

[Rhyltran]

You are wrong. about everything you have said just said and will say in the future. Mace Windu won the duel , and sidious would have lost. Sidious was on the ground begging for mercy if anakin never showed up mace windu would have killed him. Vaapad is by far the strongest fighting style to use against the dark side, because it uses the negative energy from the enemy he fights, and then his own skill / power on top of that. Sidious had no chance, except plot armor.

 

You are wrong about everything you have just said and will say in the future.

[Jarons]

You are wrong. about everything you have said just said and will say in the future. Mace Windu won the duel , and sidious would have lost. Sidious was on the ground begging for mercy if anakin never showed up mace windu would have killed him. Vaapad is by far the strongest fighting style to use against the dark side, because it uses the negative energy from the enemy he fights, and then his own skill / power on top of that. Sidious had no chance, except plot armor.

You should just feel bad for even thinking this true.

[Ghenghis-Khan]

im reading shatterpoint right now. I have to say mace is the best duelist in the force. Mace created Vaapad.

 

Had windu killed sidious then maybe the jedi would have lived to ward off the vong.

[PadsterPwns]

Great thread Zoltan, I'll make sure to use this when debating for, or against , Windu.

 

Off topic, I can't get into the thread about favourite lightsaber duels, it tells me the server is being updated so I can't see it (Dat logic)

Edited October 27, 2015 by PadsterPwns

[Jedi_riches]

In terms of the emperor vs Windu debate, I do think that mace beat him 1v1 in a lightsaber duel, whether that was only because of Vaapad or not is something else entirely, the problem is Sidious's OTT reaction which was only for Anakin's benefit I don't believe that Sidious knew he was coming but played up to it once it came into play.

 

Now whether Mace had the force ability to defend against him is also a different question, while Mace is obviously strong in the force other than shatterpoint ability I have not seen anything from him that would indicate an exceptional ability in the force, such as Yoda catching lightning with his hand etc. but I think the lightning was starting to overwhelm mace before Anakin cut his hand off but without that who would have lasted longer Sidious or Mace?.

[PadsterPwns]

In terms of the emperor vs Windu debate, I do think that mace beat him 1v1 in a lightsaber duel, whether that was only because of Vaapad or not is something else entirely, the problem is Sidious's OTT reaction which was only for Anakin's benefit I don't believe that Sidious knew he was coming but played up to it once it came into play.

 

Now whether Mace had the force ability to defend against him is also a different question, while Mace is obviously strong in the force other than shatterpoint ability I have not seen anything from him that would indicate an exceptional ability in the force, such as Yoda catching lightning with his hand etc. but I think the lightning was starting to overwhelm mace before Anakin cut his hand off but without that who would have lasted longer Sidious or Mace?.

 

Sidious. In the novelisation of RotS, the reason why Mace starts begging Anakin to help him is because he was starting to lose his grip on his lightsaber hilt and Sidious' lightning was literally bending the lightsaber blade back towards Mace's face. Also I'm not sure if Mace won the saber duel or Sids threw it because while there's multiple sources depicting Mace legitimately winning the saber fight, Selenial recently corrected me saying that in one of the insiders it's confirmed Sids threw it so I'm not sure. I usually trust info like that but I'm still unsure due to the amount of sources that depict Mace legitimately winning.