Exar Kun & Ulic-Qel Droma vs Revan & Darth Malak

[Beniboybling]

Exar Kun and Ulic-Qel Droma vs SoR Revan and Malak

 

Battleground: Yavin 4, Forgotten Terrace

 

Both characters have full use of their abilities, equipment and are able to draw on the DS nexus. Who wins?

 

NOTE: Please provide reasoning for you're opinion to spark some argument, no one word answers.

Edited October 12, 2015 by Beniboybling

[Aurbere]

Team 2. Revan is superior to Kun in every way that matters, be it lightsaber combat or Force ability. Malak on the other hand probably isn't a better duelist than Ulic, but he is demonstrably more powerful and has better hype going for him. Close fight, but Revan vs Kun decides it.

[cs_zoltan]

Eh I personally don't think Revan is a better duelist, but he certainly seems the more powerful force user. Which in turn gives him a greater control over the nexus, widening the gap.

They both use Niman, but Kun took it to the nth degree, while Revan didn't. Kun also has his amulets, which bolsters his Alter abilities. So in short Kun is a better duelist, which is offset by Revan's better augmentation, and Revan is the stronger force user, which is offset by Kun's amulet. Kun also has better endurance feats, but Revan has potent Force Healing.

I'm gona give the slightest of majority to Revan because of his stamina. But really it could go either way.

 

I'm not really an expert on the other two. They are both duelist foremost and use Djem So, afaik. IIrc Ulic contended with a pre-prime Kun, while Malak lost to a pre-prime Revan while also having all the advatages possible. So I'll give this one to Ulic. But like I said, I don't really know them well.

 

Overall I think Kun vs Revan will come down to stamina, while Ulic vs Malak will end much faster. So I think Team 1 wins.

Edited October 12, 2015 by cs_zoltan

[Aurbere]

Eh I personally don't think Revan is a better duelist, but he certainly seems the more powerful force user.

 

Not a better duelist? What makes you say that? Kun might have been the best of his time, but the same is likewise for Revan, and Rean remained among the best duelists for centuries, proving a near insurmountable opponent for groups of the galaxy's finest warriors.

 

Revan's slaughtered armies on worlds strong in the dark side, defeated the greatest warriors of the era, and engaged the greatest fighters in the galaxy, nearly besting them. Kun's only good feats of dueling are stalemating Ulic and besting Baas. Revan's slaughtering armies and defeating the greatest warriors of the era.

 

Not to mention Revan's precognitive abilities massively outstrip Kun's, and that gives him further advantage. Possessing the ability to predict the paths of war through precognition is an ability that would allow him to outpace and outmaneuver Kun in a duel.

 

They both use Niman, but Kun took it to the nth degree, while Revan didn't.

 

Regarding Revan's use of Niman, what leads you to that conclusion?

 

Kun also has his amulets, which bolsters his Alter abilities.

 

His amulets which in their standard use could only incapacitate a witch, despite Kun's intentions to kill? Right?

 

So in short Kun is a better duelist, which is offset by Revan's better augmentation, and Revan is the stronger force user, which is offset by Kun's amulet.

 

Again, Revan's a better duelist, and Kun's amulets aren't that great. Revan's mastery of defensive abilities and Sith Sorcery (Interestingly, Revan's just as good in that area as Kun is ) would allow him to defend against such amulet attacks. From there, Revan bests Kun through his superior power.

 

Kun also has better endurance feats, but Revan has potent Force Healing.

 

Exar Kun has better endurance feats? When did Kun tank a blast intended to kill everything in a 1 KM radius and keep fighting? Revan did.

 

I'm gona give the slightest of majority to Revan because of his stamina. But really it could go either way.

 

True, Revan does have better stamina. Could it go either way? Nah, not really. Revan exceeds Kun in every area that matters.

 

I'm not really an expert on the other two. They are both duelist foremost and use Djem So, afaik. IIrc Ulic contended with a pre-prime Kun, while Malak lost to a pre-prime Revan while also having all the advatages possible. So I'll give this one to Ulic. But like I said, I don't really know them well.

 

That whole Star Forge feat is a feat for Revan, not an anti-feat for Malak.

 

On the other hand, pre-prime Malak gave Darth Revan a desperate fight, the same Darth Revan who was the greatest warrior in the galaxy and an army buster.

 

Malak also defeated Bastila Shan in seconds, the latter of whom was chosen to lead the task force to capture the aforementioned greatest warrior in the galaxy over all of the Jedi Masters in the galaxy. Additionally, Malak was stated countless times superior to mid-KOTOR Revan, Bastila Shan, and Carth. Even mid-KOTOR Revan was an army buster and probably the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy.

 

Darth Malak is a superior duelist to Ulic, and his demonstrated Force powers are also superior.

 

Revan is blatantly superior to Exar Kun on all fronts, likewise Malak is superior to Ulic on all fronts. It's a good fight, but the outcome is obvious.

[OldVengeance]

Exar Kun and Ulic win. Exar Kun was the more powerful Dark Lord of the Sith. Not only was he the one that provoked Marka Ragnos to return from the grave just to endorse him, but the few people who have met Exar Kun are not intimidated by Darth Revan.

[MarcheseAMM]

Utterly terrible logic @ the post above me.

 

That being said, I'm most pleased with Aurbere at the minute. As you can see, he has become an extension of my will in the form of the Emperor's Wrath. He will personally lead the Revanite crusade on SWTOR while I am off fighting more important battles. Nevertheless, his contributions are noted and most appreciated.

[OldVengeance]

There's certainly really nothing that makes Revan "blatantly superior." They never dueled. They never matched strength in the Force. They never even met. None of Revan's "feats" are relevant because the people he defeated are from a different era. There's no objective standard of enemy to measure them against. The few people that knew them both were more impressed with Exar Kun.

[MarcheseAMM]

There's certainly really nothing that makes Revan "blatantly superior." They never dueled. They never matched strength in the Force. They never even met. None of Revan's "feats" are relevant because the people he defeated are from a different era. There's no objective standard of enemy to measure them against. The few people that knew them both were more impressed with Exar Kun.

Well, that's not really how we debate here. That being said, I'll play by your rules.

 

The only people who met both agreed to Revan's superiority, actually (i.e. the Jedi Council of Dantooine).

 

You're thinking of the one guy from the Yavin IV station, but he conceded he never even met Darth Revan or Darth Malak, so such a comparison is pretty flawed. He met Revan once he was a Jedi, so clearly he's not going to be as intimating (compare the presence to Yoda to Palpatine - and then tell me which one you would fear more). I doubt he ever actually met Exar Kun, by the way. It's more than likely he just heard stories from travelers and what not.

[Aurbere]

There's certainly really nothing that makes Revan "blatantly superior." They never dueled. They never matched strength in the Force. They never even met. None of Revan's "feats" are relevant because the people he defeated are from a different era. There's no objective standard of enemy to measure them against. The few people that knew them both were more impressed with Exar Kun.

 

Edit: Statement part covered already.

 

Nerd culture is all about these hypothetical versus matches. Pit two (or more) characters against each other, stack their feats and accolades and such against each other and people fight over who wins. Typical nerd culture.

Edited October 15, 2015 by Aurbere

[OldVengeance]

He still says the same thing to Revan's face even if Revan is darkside. And I'm pretty sure he also says outright that he was present on Yavin when Exar Kun was the Dark Lord of the Sith. I believe he was a former slave.

 

Also, when do the Jedi Council ever directly compare Revan and Exar Kun? And is there any evidence those masters ever knew Kun?

 

 

Nerd culture is all about these hypothetical versus matches. Pit two (or more) characters against each other, stack their feats and accolades and such against each other and people fight over who wins. Typical nerd culture.

 

Yes I'm quite familiar with that. But even in all the hypothetical comic books verses I've seen, (where things are a little more quantifiable), comparing feats from different circumstances doesn't really seem like a good way to measure things.

Edited October 15, 2015 by OldVengeance

[Faardor]

Gonna give the advantage to Exar Kun and Ulic due to the fact that they both have more knowledge than Revan / Malak does about the force, including Sith Alchemy.

[Beniboybling]

Not a better duelist? What makes you say that? Kun might have been the best of his time, but the same is likewise for Revan, and Rean remained among the best duelists for centuries, proving a near insurmountable opponent for groups of the galaxy's finest warriors.

Nowhere is Revan stated to be the greatest duelist of his inferior, in fact Drew believed him to be inferior to Malak.

 

And while yes he proved a considerable challenge to great duelists of latter eras, nowhere is this explicitly attributed to his technical skill with a blade, and instead he is repeatedly stated to be "too powerful" in the Force.

 

Simply put these accolades you foist on Revan are grounded in assumptions, whereas Exar Kun has been stated to be the greatest student Vodo-Siosk Baas had trained in hundreds of years, has been regarded as a "master swordsman" - where Revan has been described by Drew Karsphyn as "no swordsmaster" - possessed "unparrelled" prowess for his time and is generally regarded as more than a match for any of lightsaber duelist in galactic history.

 

Revan's praise as a duelist simply doesn't compare.

Revan's slaughtered armies on worlds strong in the dark side, defeated the greatest warriors of the era, and engaged the greatest fighters in the galaxy, nearly besting them. Kun's only good feats of dueling are stalemating Ulic and besting Baas. Revan's slaughtering armies and defeating the greatest warriors of the era.

And you're for unstated reasons assuming Exar Kun would be unable to do the same. I agree with OldVengance here this is faulty logic, you've failed to establish an objective standard here, instead you've simply assumed Revan's feats are more impressive because, what? Quantity? By the same logic Yoda and Darth Sidious could be claimed inferior duelists to Revan simply because they lack the same level of battlefield feats.

 

I suggest we focus on quality instead, with that I'm mind to pick apart you're assertions.

 

"Revan's slaughtered armies on worlds strong in the dark side", correct but in comparison to Revan these invidiuals where fodder, blaster wielding Mandalorians and Sith with the occasional vibroblade and minimal dueling ability, the deadliest opponents he would have faced would have been Dark Jedi. So I ask on what grounds are you assuming Exar Kun incapable of defeating warriors of such calibre? His capabilities seem to suggest otherwise.

 

"Defeated the greatest warriors of the era", because Exar Kun did not? Vodo-Siosk Baas was considering among the greatest Jedi masters of the time and the Order's chief weaponsmaster, and Ulic-Qel Droma was said to be the Order's greatest Jedi Knight and a master lightsaber duelist compared in skill to ROTJ Luke. You've dismissed Exar Kun's performance against these individuals as "good" with no apparent basis.

 

Fact is Darth Bandon, while skilled, is not on the same level as these individuals, nor is Mandalore the Ultimate, considering Ulic-Qel Droma defeated Mandalore the Indomitable in far less favorable circumstances.

 

Darth Malak is an impressive and arguably his most impressive victory, but considering Revan was stated to be the inferior duelist we can only assume it was Revan's prodigal strength in the Force that allowed him to win, something something Exar Kun has in equal if not greater spades than KOTOR Revan.

 

Though as far as skill is concerned, Exar Kun has greater accolades and greater feats than Malak.

 

"and engaged the greatest fighters in the galaxy, nearly besting them." On a nexus, which significantly amplified his abilites. His difficulty to defeat again attributed to his amplified strength in the Force rather than technical skill. And while I acknowledge the nature of the battleground, my point is its incomparable to non-nexus feats.

 

Altogether I'm failing to see how the feats you've brought to the table prove Revan to have superior technical skill to Kun. Revan is undeniably skilled but to place him above the likes of Kun is farfetched.

Not to mention Revan's precognitive abilities massively outstrip Kun's, and that gives him further advantage. Possessing the ability to predict the paths of war through precognition is an ability that would allow him to outpace and outmaneuver Kun in a duel.

Massively outstrip? Exar Kun's ability to detect the presence of the Keto's from across the galaxy speaks of impressive ability in Sense, so that seems unwarranted. However I won't deny it as an advantage, but is it really a game changer?

Regarding Revan's use of Niman, what leads you to that conclusion?

Drew stating as much? Which no other sources contradict? I warrant you that he's more likely to wield Juyo in this situation however, but Exar Kun's Niman was practically Juyo anyway. So Zoltan's point stands.

His amulets which in their standard use could only incapacitate a witch, despite Kun's intentions to kill? Right?

You're forgetting that we're on Yavin 4, where Exar Kun's amulets levelled the temple interior, killed a giant Sith wyrm, incinerated Massassi warriors and obliterated the spirit of Freedon Nadd, a being considered far more powerful than Naga Sadow, and that was before his prime.

 

Do you really expect Revan to shrug off attacks of even greater magnitude?

Again, Revan's a better duelist, and Kun's amulets aren't that great. Revan's mastery of defensive abilities and Sith Sorcery (Interestingly, Revan's just as good in that area as Kun is ) would allow him to defend against such amulet attacks. From there, Revan bests Kun through his superior power.

What defensive capabilities has Revan demonstrated that prove he could dispel an attack of such magnitude?

 

Though I would point out Malak has no such defenses.

Exar Kun has better endurance feats? When did Kun tank a blast intended to kill everything in a 1 KM radius and keep fighting? Revan did.

He didn't, but neither did Revan, Revan experienced a backlash from having his attempt to launch such an attack interrupted, that doesn't mean he was subjected to the attack itself, which wasn't even fully prepared.

Darth Malak is a superior duelist to Ulic, and his demonstrated Force powers are also superior.

I wouldn't disagree concerning Force abilities, but considering Ulic was able to stalemate against Exar Kun indefinitely, I would definitely bring into question the notion he's a better duelist.

Revan is blatantly superior to Exar Kun on all fronts, likewise Malak is superior to Ulic on all fronts. It's a good fight, but the outcome is obvious.

Of course I disagree, but I am unsure as to the outcome of this fight. I think that if Exar Kun could injure Malak with a Force blasts, he would be weakened enough for Ulic to defeat him.

 

In terms of Exar Kun vs Revan, I feel Exar Kun is the undeniably superior duelist, whereas who is the superior Force user is ambiguous. For that reason I'd say if Exar Kun can push a martial engagement, he'll win.

 

One thing I'm quite certain on is that the outcome is far from obvious, and I doubt anybody else bar Ant see it that way.

Edited October 15, 2015 by Beniboybling

[cs_zoltan]

And while yes he proved a considerable challenge to great duelists of latter eras, nowhere is this explicitly attributed to his technical skill with a blade, and instead he is repeatedly stated to be "too powerful" in the Force.

Drew agrees:

 

"Though he was skilled in all of them [lightsaber forms] - he was always more of a generalist than a specialist."

―Drew Karpyshyn (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan Author)

 

"Revan would generally have used "Form VI - Niman". This form works well for anyone who is intelligent and adaptable, as Revan obviously was. It has no real weaknesses, and even though it is not as aggressive as other forms it enables the user to unleash powerful Force abilities more easily during combat. Revan was skilled in lightsaber combat, but knew true strength came from using all the other Force abilities in conjunction with lightsaber combat. Form VI would allow Revan to spend less time focusing on lightsaber skills, and more time developing other Force powers."

―Drew Karpyshyn (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan Author)

[Aurbere]

Nowhere is Revan stated to be the greatest duelist of his inferior, in fact Drew believed him to be inferior to Malak.

 

And while yes he proved a considerable challenge to great duelists of latter eras, nowhere is this explicitly attributed to his technical skill with a blade, and instead he is repeatedly stated to be "too powerful" in the Force.

 

Simply put these accolades you foist on Revan are grounded in assumptions, whereas Exar Kun has been stated to be the greatest student Vodo-Siosk Baas had trained in hundreds of years, has been regarded as a "master swordsman" - where Revan has been described by Drew Karsphyn as "no swordsmaster" - possessed "unparrelled" prowess for his time and is generally regarded as more than a match for any of lightsaber duelist in galactic history.

 

Revan's praise as a duelist simply doesn't compare.

 

Interesting that you use author statements now, when your recent stance (confirmed in private) has been that they are non-canon opinions, something Drew himself has stated, by your own admission. Yet here you freely apply author statements to diminish Revan's capabilities.

 

Would you also like to use statements from Chris Avellone that show Darth Revan can defeat the likes of Traya and the Exile simultaneously? Darth Revan. Not any of his stronger incarnations.

 

And you're for unstated reasons assuming Exar Kun would be unable to do the same. I agree with OldVengance here this is faulty logic, you've failed to establish an objective standard here, instead you've simply assumed Revan's feats are more impressive because, what? Quantity? By the same logic Yoda and Darth Sidious could be claimed inferior duelists to Revan simply because they lack the same level of battlefield feats.

 

Uh. No? Yoda and Sidious have better accolades and feats than Revan (and Kun), hence why they are better. Likewise, Revan has better feats than Kun. Soon to be proven with accolades too.

 

"Revan's slaughtered armies on worlds strong in the dark side", correct but in comparison to Revan these invidiuals where fodder, blaster wielding Mandalorians and Sith with the occasional vibroblade and minimal dueling ability, the deadliest opponents he would have faced would have been Dark Jedi. So I ask on what grounds are you assuming Exar Kun incapable of defeating warriors of such calibre? His capabilities seem to suggest otherwise.

 

As I showed in previous debates, those Dark Jedi and Sith are master duelists, confirmed in the Knights of the Old Republic campaign guide. Revan's slaughtering master duelists. Simply dismissing them as fodder when they are confirmed to be masterful duelists is a faulty argument on your part.

 

Now as for Kun not doing this, I never really said he can't. It's a demonstration of skill and serves to show Revan's parity (at the least) with Kun. That is the intention.

 

"Defeated the greatest warriors of the era", because Exar Kun did not? Vodo-Siosk Baas was considering among the greatest Jedi masters of the time and the Order's chief weaponsmaster, and Ulic-Qel Droma was said to be the Order's greatest Jedi Knight and a master lightsaber duelist compared in skill to ROTJ Luke. You've dismissed Exar Kun's performance against these individuals as "good" with no apparent basis.

 

My basis being that such accomplishments aren't as good as Revan's. But first. Exar Kun didn't defeat Ulic. They stalemated. Also, proof Ulic = ROTJ Luke in dueling?

 

Regarding Baas, proof that he's superior to Malak? Darth Malak was the second greatest warrior of the era after Darth Revan, and he provided the latter with a desperate lightsaber duel. Again, Darth Revan was the greatest warrior of the era and had learned all the Jedi had to teach him, and had slaughtered armies. I'd certainly say Malak is comparable if not superior to Baas based on hype and feats.

 

Fact is Darth Bandon, while skilled, is not on the same level as these individuals, nor is Mandalore the Ultimate, considering Ulic-Qel Droma defeated Mandalore the Indomitable in far less favorable circumstances.

 

While you're right on both accounts, I'll go ahead and hype these guys up. You brought them up, after all

 

Firstly, Revan's victory over Mandalore the Ultimate showed that Mandalore was "no match" for him (not to mention that he'd probably have fought through the command ship to reach Mandalore as well). This being an incarnation of Revan who isn't even close to the incarnation we're discussing here. Also, sources say Ulic was pressed in his fight with Mandalore.

 

And Bandon was the second most powerful and most skilled Sith in the Sith Empire, outstripping thousands of master duelists and masters of the Force (confirmed in KOTOR Campaign Guide).

 

Revan defeating both of them before his prime is a very impressive feat and a solid indication of his skill.

 

Darth Malak is an impressive and arguably his most impressive victory, but considering Revan was stated to be the inferior duelist we can only assume it was Revan's prodigal strength in the Force that allowed him to win, something something Exar Kun has in equal if not greater spades than KOTOR Revan.

 

Though as far as skill is concerned, Exar Kun has greater accolades and greater feats than Malak.

 

See above for Malak stuff.

 

Regarding your assertion that Revan's Force strength allowed him to overcome a superior duelist. How would that logic not apply here? Even if Exar Kun is the superior duelist, wouldn't Revan's superior Force strength allow him to emerge victorious, via your logic above?

 

And, yes, Revan is the greater Force user.

 

"and engaged the greatest fighters in the galaxy, nearly besting them." On a nexus, which significantly amplified his abilites. His difficulty to defeat again attributed to his amplified strength in the Force rather than technical skill. And while I acknowledge the nature of the battleground, my point is its incomparable to non-nexus feats.

 

So you acknowledge that the battlefield here is the same as the one in SOR? Good.

 

So the difference here is that Revan is in peak fighting condition. He hasn't suffered the backlash of a blast designed to kill anyone in a 1km radius. He hasn't had his Force essence damaged by a chaotic machine. And he isn't injured by a previous confrontation.

 

So that's some stuff to keep in mind regarding his feats there.

 

Altogether I'm failing to see how the feats you've brought to the table prove Revan to have superior technical skill to Kun. Revan is undeniably skilled but to place him above the likes of Kun is farfetched.

 

Welp, good thing I elaborated on them then.

 

But I feel like I can point that stick at you as well. Outside of some statements and attempts at lowballing, you didn't do that well in proving Kun is the superior duelist either. We're both in that boat, honestly, but I elaborated here. Prove me wrong.

 

Massively outstrip? Exar Kun's ability to detect the presence of the Keto's from across the galaxy speaks of impressive ability in Sense, so that seems unwarranted. However I won't deny it as an advantage, but is it really a game changer?

 

Nexus feat for Kun. Also, that kind of sense feat isn't really that great in comparison.

 

And Revan's precognitive abilities are a game changer. They allow him to predict where Kun will strike and defend himself or counter, possibly with a lethal strike. Revan's going to be able to outthink and outmaneuver Kun with culpable ease, given that he is one of the greatest tacticians in history and all.

 

Drew stating as much? Which no other sources contradict? I warrant you that he's more likely to wield Juyo in this situation however, but Exar Kun's Niman was practically Juyo anyway. So Zoltan's point stands.

 

Again with Drew. I'll make this one quick.

 

Zoltan's point doesn't really stand at all. Revan may use Niman, but he's not limited to it. In fact, Drew was probably referring to Revan Reborn or KOTOR Revan, the ones he has the most authority on. Revan as of SOR is a far different beast. He uses his passions and rage, obviously Juyo.

 

Not to mention Revan can switch to any other form he wishes, given that Drew also stated that Revan was skilled in all of them, and Traya confirmed he learned all there is to know from the Jedi. Additionally, Juyo practice requires mastery of several forms.

 

So, not only is Revan a master of multiple forms, but he is skilled in all of them. Additionally, by virtue of learning all there is to know, mastery is implied as well. So there is a great deal of evidence suggesting that Revan is not only skilled in all Forms, but a master of them all as well.

 

You're forgetting that we're on Yavin 4, where Exar Kun's amulets levelled the temple interior, killed a giant Sith wyrm, incinerated Massassi warriors and obliterated the spirit of Freedon Nadd, a being considered far more powerful than Naga Sadow, and that was before his prime.

 

Do you really expect Revan to shrug off attacks of even greater magnitude?

 

Ah yes. The amulets. I developed a counter for these for use elsewhere. So I'll provide an edited version here.

 

Firstly, yes, we are on a nexus. But the nexus itself does not warrant Kun's amulets being capable of blasts of such magnitude. Especially since the Krath Citadel where Kun attacked Aleema is also a nexus:

 

Reaching out to Ulic with the Force, she feels nothing... except the dark power that inhabits the Iron Citadel of the Krath.--Tales of the Jedi

 

So we have two instances of Kun using the amulets on separate nexuses. While I will grant you that the Yavin nexus is stronger, obviously, there are other mitigating circumstances to Kun's first usage of the amulet.

 

Firstly, the amulets were being charged with dark energies within the Yavin Temple:

 

Tremendous energies are concentrated in these half-ruined temples. As Massassi Priest Zythmnr holds up an Ancient Sith amulet, the energies increase.--Tales of the Jedi

 

Before I continue, I'll provide a quick description of events surrounding the amulets. The aforementioned amulet was placed on a statue at the epicenter of a massive pillar of dark side energy. The shamans performed rituals and chanting that increased the power of these amulets tremendously. When Kun finally drew on the dark side and called the amulets to him, he drew them out of the pillar of energy and used the built up power to unleash the attack you mentioned. Now, I'll provide the text to prove my point here:

 

The Massassi elders fall entranced, muttering dark conjurations under ancient broken statues. Their chants heard! Torrential power is released!--Tales of the Jedi

 

Indeed, the pillars of dark side energy that engulf the amulets are called by the comic to be a 'focus of power'. Considering that the amulets later failed to perform up to the standard of obliterating an alchemic beast, it is obvious that the amulets were at a level of power beyond their standard.

 

Additionally, the amulets augmented Kun's rage 100,000 times, thus another reason why he was able to perform at that level. Considering that a not-so-enraged Kun was unable to unleash that magnitude, this is further proof that Kun would not let loose with that level or power in battle against Revan.

 

What defensive capabilities has Revan demonstrated that prove he could dispel an attack of such magnitude?

 

He won't have to, as I made pretty clear above. But since you asked. Protection bubble, Tutaminis, an advanced knowledge of Sorcery on par if not greatly superior to Kun's, your pick really.

 

Though I would point out Malak has no such defenses.

 

Assuming he would actually use them against Malak? Or that Revan would give him the time of day to do so?

 

He didn't, but neither did Revan, Revan experienced a backlash from having his attempt to launch such an attack interrupted, that doesn't mean he was subjected to the attack itself, which wasn't even fully prepared.

 

Uh. The attack was a backlash, yes. But there couldn't be a backlash without those energies. Where do you think the energies went? They obviously weren't released, otherwise the strike team would have been killed. It's obvious that the interruption of his channeling caused the attack to backlash against him.

 

And even if it wasn't fully prepared, that's still massive amounts of energy no matter how you slice it. An attack building up to a 1km blast that would kill everything it hit is going to have massive amounts of energy behind it, especially since it's obvious he would have put a great deal of energy into it while the group fought HK-47.

 

So, regardless of your interpretation, he tanked an attack of far greater magnitude than anything Kun has suffered. And even if you could refute that, Revan continued fighting, whereas Kun hasn't shown himself capable of doing the same.

 

I wouldn't disagree concerning Force abilities, but considering Ulic was able to stalemate against Exar Kun indefinitely, I would definitely bring into question the notion he's a better duelist.

 

Considering Malak gave Darth 'greatest warrior in the galaxy' Revan a desperate lightsaber duel, I certainly think that there is parity between the two as duelists.

 

And, as you postulated above, even if Malak were inferior his considerably greater Force mastery would allow him to overcome any disparity.

 

Of course I disagree, but I am unsure as to the outcome of this fight. I think that if Exar Kun could injure Malak with a Force blasts, he would be weakened enough for Ulic to defeat him.

 

Honestly, Malak withstanding several sadistic tortures sessions (willingly, I might add) that altered his physical make-up and withstanding the discorporating effects of Nathema for a prolonged period of time to be enough evidence that he can push through any injury a supposed Force Blast can do.

 

In terms of Exar Kun vs Revan, I feel Exar Kun is the undeniably superior duelist, whereas who is the superior Force user is ambiguous. For that reason I'd say if Exar Kun can push a martial engagement, he'll win.

 

I disagree, for more reasons than stated above.

 

I'll await your response.

Edited October 15, 2015 by Aurbere

[cs_zoltan]

Uh. No? Yoda and Sidious have better accolades and feats than Revan (and Kun), hence why they are better. Likewise, Revan has better feats than Kun. Soon to be proven with accolades too.

 

https://38.media.tumblr.com/d9ca90da02e892260ec499687d425047/tumblr_mrny78nKb31ry07c8o1_400.gif

[MarcheseAMM]

https://38.media.tumblr.com/d9ca90da02e892260ec499687d425047/tumblr_mrny78nKb31ry07c8o1_400.gif

 

Revan's a better combatant and duelist, yeah.

 

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/cav-revan-darthant66-vs-exar-kun-dccomicsrule2011-1682402/?page=1#js-message-14831135

 

Read the above and maybe it will change your view.

Edited October 15, 2015 by MarcheseAMM

[Beniboybling]

Lol @ Ant's serious attempt to corrupt Zoltan.

[cs_zoltan]

Lol @ Ant's serious attempt to corrupt Zoltan.

 

This + I linked that gif because of the color not the content anyway...

[MarcheseAMM]

Lol @ Ant's serious attempt to corrupt Zoltan.

 

You would be surprised. Spending energy on the weak sometimes has positive consequences.

 

Just look at you and how far you've fallen as of late as an example.

[Beniboybling]

You would be surprised. Spending energy on the weak sometimes has positive consequences.

 

Just look at you and how far you've fallen as of late as an example.

I LOL'ed twice over.

 

You better tell Ant you're a guy Zoltan before he starts making advances, it's wouldn't be the first time.

[cs_zoltan]

I LOL'ed twice over.

 

You better tell Ant you're a guy Zoltan before he starts making advances, it's wouldn't be the first time.

 

 

I think we cleared that up in the real most powerful thread.

[Beniboybling]

Interesting that you use author statements now, when your recent stance (confirmed in private) has been that they are non-canon opinions, something Drew himself has stated, by your own admission. Yet here you freely apply author statements to diminish Revan's capabilities.

There's nothing private about my recent stance, so to ensure it's not misconstrued I'll quote:

 

And let me be clear on my stance in terms of authorial statements. First off they are non-canon opinions, often by the author's own admissions, this makes them fallible, but as the authors far from entirely without merit. You can't therefore make blanket claims about whether authorial statements are "wrong" or "right", obviously they vary with circumstance. In this case I've been given no reason to believe Drew mistaken in describing the abilities of character he created, and is instead supported by the source material. This is not always the case.

Would you also like to use statements from Chris Avellone that show Darth Revan can defeat the likes of Traya and the Exile simultaneously? Darth Revan. Not any of his stronger incarnations.

In the respect that Revan isn't a character of his creation, and that the logic he uses to back up his opinion - "Kreia’s still stuck in the past, and the Exile has their own issues" - is as brief as it is confusing, no, I would hardly treat it as the last word on the subject. Quite different from Drew's well grounded matter-of-fact description of a character he created.

Uh. No? Yoda and Sidious have better accolades and feats than Revan (and Kun), hence why they are better. Likewise, Revan has better feats than Kun. Soon to be proven with accolades too.

When you say "soon to be proven" I can only assume you mean in some imagined future expansion, because in so far Drew's commentary represents the extent of his hype. And he has no feats that prove his superiority over Kun.

As I showed in previous debates, those Dark Jedi and Sith are master duelists, confirmed in the Knights of the Old Republic campaign guide. Revan's slaughtering master duelists. Simply dismissing them as fodder when they are confirmed to be masterful duelists is a faulty argument on your part.

I labelled them fodder in comparison to Revan, even as master duelists they don't and didn't pose a significant threat to him. Neither would they pose a significant threat to the likes of Exar Kun. Hence fodder.

Now as for Kun not doing this, I never really said he can't. It's a demonstration of skill and serves to show Revan's parity (at the least) with Kun. That is the intention.

So you're arguing parity now? So Revan doesn't have better feats than Kun then.

My basis being that such accomplishments aren't as good as Revan's. But first. Exar Kun didn't defeat Ulic. They stalemated. Also, proof Ulic = ROTJ Luke in dueling?

He did stalemate, but then Exar Kun was made Ulic's superior, his duelling skills described as unparalleled for the era, and in said engagement he never revealed his second blade.

 

Altogether Exar Kun remains his superior to Ulic as a duelist, who yes has been compared to Luke:

"Ulic is a prefiguration of Luke Skywalker. He's rash and impulsive, an excellent swordsman. He acts before he thinks and has an angry streak. It was very difficult working out the story of his turning to the dark side, because we had to do it in very few pages."

 

-- Tom Veitch, Co-Author of Tales of the Jedi

No its not grounds for claiming them equals, but being compared to the likes of Luke as a Djem So duelist establishes him as among the best, and certainly in Malak's league.

Regarding Baas, proof that he's superior to Malak? Darth Malak was the second greatest warrior of the era after Darth Revan, and he provided the latter with a desperate lightsaber duel. Again, Darth Revan was the greatest warrior of the era and had learned all the Jedi had to teach him, and had slaughtered armies. I'd certainly say Malak is comparable if not superior to Baas based on hype and feats.

Don't plan on defending a statement I never made.

Firstly, Revan's victory over Mandalore the Ultimate showed that Mandalore was "no match" for him (not to mention that he'd probably have fought through the command ship to reach Mandalore as well). This being an incarnation of Revan who isn't even close to the incarnation we're discussing here. Also, sources say Ulic was pressed in his fight with Mandalore.

Because Ulic was barred from using his lightsaber, and forced to fight balanced on a chain while Mandalore assaulted him from atop his Basillisk war droid. Mandalore made the rules of the engagement deliberately unfair because he knew he was "no match" for him on neutral ground, and yet still he lost.

 

Let's be honest on neutral ground, Exar Kun would defeat him with a gesture.

And Bandon was the second most powerful and most skilled Sith in the Sith Empire, outstripping thousands of master duelists and masters of the Force (confirmed in KOTOR Campaign Guide).

Still inferior to Ulic and at best a rival to Vodo, who Exar Kun all but obliterated, and that's being generous.

See above for Malak stuff.

 

Regarding your assertion that Revan's Force strength allowed him to overcome a superior duelist. How would that logic not apply here? Even if Exar Kun is the superior duelist, wouldn't Revan's superior Force strength allow him to emerge victorious, via your logic above?

 

And, yes, Revan is the greater Force user.

Sure he is, but you haven't exactly proved as much and with Kun wielding his amulets I'm hesitant to take you're word for it. Irregardless if any gap between their powers exist is not going to be as large as the gap between Malak & Revan, Malak pretty much admitted he was outclassed.

So the difference here is that Revan is in peak fighting condition. He hasn't suffered the backlash of a blast designed to kill anyone in a 1km radius. He hasn't had his Force essence damaged by a chaotic machine. And he isn't injured by a previous confrontation.

 

So that's some stuff to keep in mind regarding his feats there.

Care to prove that both confrontations with Revan happened within a single continuity?

 

And before you bring up the following:

 

"You barely managed to drive me away last time. What makes you think you can survive against me?"

 

I'd like a reason for why that isn't referring to the Foundry, that certainly what I initially assumed.

Welp, good thing I elaborated on them then.

 

But I feel like I can point that stick at you as well. Outside of some statements and attempts at lowballing, you didn't do that well in proving Kun is the superior duelist either. We're both in that boat, honestly, but I elaborated here. Prove me wrong.

Only because you're attempting to ignore Drew's commentary with an accusation of double standards.

 

Exar Kun has again been referred to as a "master swordsman" with "unparalleled" ability, the greatest pupil Vodo produced from the countless he's trained, wielding a unique weapon that made him "virtually unstoppable in combat." It is quite obvious that lightsaber combat is among Kun's foremost focuses and that he excelled in it profoundly.

 

In comparison, Revan has received general praise as an exceptional warrior, but with no explicit reference to his technical skill as a duelist, and no comparative accolades. Instead has been stated by his creator to be:

 

"Though ... skilled in all of them [lightsaber forms] ... more of a generalist than a specialist."

 

Take into account the fact that Drew describes Revan as an inferior duelist to Malak:

 

"For me, Malak was always the 'brawn' to Revan's 'brain' - he was renowned for his combat abilities, and I always felt that he was even better than Revan with a lightsaber.

 

Whom he describes as a "more of a specialist", then its clear what he means is that Revan does not possess exceptional technical skill in the same way the likes of Malak do. Something that doesn't contradict Revan's renown as a warrior, because he makes up for it with the Force, which his praise as a warrior certainly accounts for.

 

Exar Kun on the other hand falls every bit into the specialist category, and is just as good a duelist as Malak if not better. Drew simply wouldn't describe Revan in the terms that he did if Revan we're an even greater duelist than Kun.

And Revan's precognitive abilities are a game changer. They allow him to predict where Kun will strike and defend himself or counter, possibly with a lethal strike. Revan's going to be able to outthink and outmaneuver Kun with culpable ease, given that he is one of the greatest tacticians in history and all.

On what grounds? Yes Revan's precognitive abilities are exceptional but when has he ever applied to the "outhink and outmaneuver" a duelist of Kun's caliber with "culpable ease"

 

Did he "outthink and outmaneuver" Malak "with culpable ease"?

"Malak's most distinguishing feature, his steel jaw, disguises a vicious lightsaber wound inflicted by his former Master in their desperate final battle."

 

-- Taken from Star Wars Insider 88: Virtual Sith

 

"...that [star Forge] battle would have been a brutal, hard fought affair spread over multiple pages."

 

-- Drew Karpyshyn

 

"It is a period of uncertainty across the galaxy. After a long and vicious battle in the deepest area of the Star Forge, Dark Lord of the Sith Darth Revan succeeds in destroying his ex-apprentice Darth Malak."

 

-- Taken from Star Wars: Chronicles of the Old Republic

Doesn't appear that way to me, and in this case Revan is dealing with a far deadlier opponent. And what about his opponents on the Foundry? Or those who challenged him on Yavin 4? You exaggerate Revan's abilities.

Again with Drew. I'll make this one quick.

 

Zoltan's point doesn't really stand at all. Revan may use Niman, but he's not limited to it. In fact, Drew was probably referring to Revan Reborn or KOTOR Revan, the ones he has the most authority on. Revan as of SOR is a far different beast. He uses his passions and rage, obviously Juyo.

A little too quick as you didn't read my point:

 

Drew stating as much? Which no other sources contradict? I warrant you that he's more likely to wield Juyo in this situation however, but Exar Kun's Niman was practically Juyo anyway. So Zoltan's point stands.

 

You described SOR Revan as a "far different beast", but he's not, and all he's doing is reverting to the form he used as a Sith Lord. To whom Drew certainly has the authority to refer to. And again, Kun's Niman is pratically Juyo:

 

It, like Juyo, draws on multiple forms of lightsaber combat.

It, like Juyo, uses the erratic and unpredictable.

It, like Juyo, is an extremely aggressive killing form.

 

Exar Kun even incoporated mastery of Jar'Kai into his style, just like Revan. I'd go as far to say that Kun's unique style was a precursor and inspiration for Juyo practitioners that only appear post-Kun, but that's purely theoretical. The point is though that Niman and Juyo is very a like (there is a reason Niman was among Darth Maul's primary form), and Exar Kun's version of Niman even more so.

 

And to remind ourselves of why this is relevant, it means Revan as far as technique is concerned has no surprises, and is anything Exar Kun will know the ins and outs of Revan's style, his own style being an essentially better version. This is effectively a Luke vs Vader scenario, and it gives Kun a significant advantage as far as skill goes.

Not to mention Revan can switch to any other form he wishes, given that Drew also stated that Revan was skilled in all of them, and Traya confirmed he learned all there is to know from the Jedi. Additionally, Juyo practice requires mastery of several forms.

 

So, not only is Revan a master of multiple forms, but he is skilled in all of them. Additionally, by virtue of learning all there is to know, mastery is implied as well. So there is a great deal of evidence suggesting that Revan is not only skilled in all Forms, but a master of them all as well.

Practice of Juyo requires you be "highly skilled" in multiple forms of lightsaber combat, which is the most praise he's ever received, nowhere is stated to be a master swordsman.

 

Again he is a generalist, a Niman practitioner, jack of all trades, master of none. Kreia's statement that Revan learned everything the Jedi had to teach obviously not intended not to be taken literally.

Ah yes. The amulets. I developed a counter for these for use elsewhere. So I'll provide an edited version here.

That was actually very informative, no sarcasm intended. I find that particular scene always vague at best so anything that shines additional light on the contexts is invaluable.

 

Altogether, fair point, and I concede that Kun's amulets won't be as potent. However Yavin 4 is as you say a far greater nexus that the Krath Citadel, infinitely greater to be quite honest, so they'll be pretty potent regardless.

He won't have to, as I made pretty clear above. But since you asked. Protection bubble, Tutaminis, an advanced knowledge of Sorcery on par if not greatly superior to Kun's, your pick really.

Problem is Sith sorcery is notoriously difficult to defend against, its unlikely that conventional defenses would prove effective against pure dark side energy, when Bane made was incapable of defending himself against Zannah.

Assuming he would actually use them against Malak? Or that Revan would give him the time of day to do so?

Considering how explosive an attack it is I expect Revan to be pinned down, and it's wide radius certainly leaves room for Malak to be caught in the blast.

Uh. The attack was a backlash, yes. But there couldn't be a backlash without those energies. Where do you think the energies went? They obviously weren't released, otherwise the strike team would have been killed. It's obvious that the interruption of his channeling caused the attack to backlash against him.

 

And even if it wasn't fully prepared, that's still massive amounts of energy no matter how you slice it. An attack building up to a 1km blast that would kill everything it hit is going to have massive amounts of energy behind it, especially since it's obvious he would have put a great deal of energy into it while the group fought HK-47.

 

So, regardless of your interpretation, he tanked an attack of far greater magnitude than anything Kun has suffered. And even if you could refute that, Revan continued fighting, whereas Kun hasn't shown himself capable of doing the same.

Fair point, but is bad logic to assume that Kun would be incapable of withstanding such an attack simply because he hasn't. On the other hand Kun has survived having every bone broken in his body, despite being cut off from the Force, and that was before his prime, so I expect Kun's stamina and endurance would be pretty immense.

Considering Malak gave Darth 'greatest warrior in the galaxy' Revan a desperate lightsaber duel, I certainly think that there is parity between the two as duelists.

 

And, as you postulated above, even if Malak were inferior his considerably greater Force mastery would allow him to overcome any disparity.

Still not as good as Kun.

 

Fair point about Force abilities however.

Honestly, Malak withstanding several sadistic tortures sessions (willingly, I might add) that altered his physical make-up and withstanding the discorporating effects of Nathema for a prolonged period of time to be enough evidence that he can push through any injury a supposed Force Blast can do.

It certainly wouldn't kill him, but I highly doubt he'd escape unscathed.

 

More importantly Ulic would capitalise on any opening it left in his defenses.

Edited October 16, 2015 by Beniboybling

[cs_zoltan]

I'm gona agree with Aurbere, only because the Kun wanking on CV is getting ridiculous.

 

I know...logic.