Mace Windu vs Obi-Wan Kenobi

[Beniboybling]

ROTS Windu vs ROTS Kenobi

 

Battleground: Petranaki Arena

 

Bonus Round: Lightsabers only

 

Morals off, both combatants are prepared to kill and have full use of their abilities. Who wins?

 

NOTE: Please provide reasoning for you're opinion to spark some argument, no one word answers.

Edited October 13, 2015 by Beniboybling

[Jarons]

ROTS Windu vs ROTS Kenobi

 

Battleground: Petranaki Arena

 

Morals off, both combatants are prepared to kill and have full use of their abilities. Who wins?

 

Mace hands down.

[Beniboybling]

Mace hands down.

Provide dat reasoning, should add that to the OP actually.

[Aurbere]

Mace WIndu is the better swordsman and more powerful Force user. He's simply better than Kenobi. Obi-Wan is smarter, but I'm not sure how that'll help him against the more powerful foe.

 

If we consider that Mace and Dooku are consistently argued against each other in terms of power, I can see Windu keeping Kenobi back with the Force.

[Jarons]

Provide dat reasoning, should add that to the OP actually.

 

Well mace has mastered all seven lightsaber forms to such a degree that it he was able to create a new form.He would no just about every weakness Obi-Wan Form has and he will exploit it to his advantage.Also Obi-Wan has weak Force defense while Mace can just force push him onto the ground then wrack shop.

[Rhyltran]

Mace WIndu is the better swordsman and more powerful Force user. He's simply better than Kenobi. Obi-Wan is smarter, but I'm not sure how that'll help him against the more powerful foe.

 

If we consider that Mace and Dooku are consistently argued against each other in terms of power, I can see Windu keeping Kenobi back with the Force.

 

This. For the same reasons Kenobi loses to Dooku he'll lose to Mace. Mace is a better swordsman than Kenobi as his only equals in the saber arena happen to be Dooku and Yoda. There's many quotes that confirm this. Skill aside he's also much more powerful than Kenobi. On top of raw speed, power, and skill advantage Windu would have to get around his use of shatterpoint as well. I don't see kenobi putting up a fight. Not to mention as shown in shatter point Windu is fully willing to fight dirty if he has to and if he is somehow pushed into such a confrontation can Kenobi avoid having his defense broken and simply force crushed?

 

Kenobi loses this fight. Badly I must say.

Edited October 12, 2015 by Rhyltran

[PurpleDelirium]

I love Kenobi but he is just simply outclassed.

 

Feats aside, Yoda would not allow Kenobi to confront Sidious at the end of EP 3 because there was no way he could pose a reasonable threat to him, while Mace posed a significant threat when he went up against him in the Senate office (regardless of any theories stating Sidious was in control).

[cs_zoltan]

Well I start with that Kenobi is not outclasses, at all. And neither is this a stomp.

 

Kenobi has one glaring weakness, and that is his force defenses. Fortunately Windu is not likely to abuse his raw force power in a duel. I doubt he will ragdoll Kenobi, maybe only as a last resort.

In other areas they are comparable. Kenobi in RotS was pretty close to Dooku in terms of speed. He fought stronger opponents than Windu (Anakin and Savage), and faster opponents as well (Grievous). His Soresu was perfect, so perfect in fact, that Mace specifically sent him after Grievous, who can analyze his opponents, yet couldn't find a weakness in his form. So that's Shatterpoint out of the window.

 

While their force power if mostly irrelevant, their dueling skill isn't. Mace is a superior duelist, but he is still not stomping. Mace sparred evenly with Saesee Tiin who is likely not superior to Kenobi. On the other hand Kenobi proven to be a smarter duelist and a better user of Sokan.

 

How I see this turn out is that they pretty much would be in an impasse. Mace is better, but Obi-Wan is smarter. This would go on a while, until Mace gets bored of it and starts to abuse his power. And that's when he will win.

 

In the end Kenobi loses because he has a weakness, while Mace doesn't.

Edited October 13, 2015 by cs_zoltan

[PurpleDelirium]

Well I start with that Kenobi is not outclasses, at all. And neither is this a stomp.

 

Kenobi has one glaring weakness, and that is his force defenses. Fortunately Windu is not likely to abuse his raw force power in a duel. I doubt he will ragdoll Kenobi, maybe only as a last resort.

In other areas they are comparable. Kenobi in RotS was pretty close to Dooku in terms of speed. He fought stronger opponents than Windu (Anakin and Savage), and faster opponents as well (Grievous). His Soresu was perfect, so perfect in fact, that Mace specifically sent him after Grievous, who can analyze his opponents, yet couldn't find a weakness in his form. So that's Shatterpoint out of the window.

 

While their force power if mostly irrelevant, their dueling skill isn't. Mace is a superior duelist, but he is still not stomping. Mace sparred evenly with Saesee Tiin who is likely not superior to Kenobi. On the other hand Kenobi proven to be a smarter duelist and a better user of Sokan.

 

How I see this turn out is that they pretty much would be in an impasse. Mace is better, but Obi-Wan is smarter. This would go on a while, until Mace gets bored of it and starts to abuse his power. And that's when he will win.

 

In the end Kenobi loses because he has a weakness, while Mace doesn't.

 

A discussion between Yoda and Kenobi amidst order 66, regarding a possible confrontation between the two and Sidious.

 

Now Obi-Wan did face him. "Palpatine faced Mace and Agen and Kit and Saesee - four of the greatest swordsmen our Order has ever produced. By himself. Even both of us together wouldn't have a chance."

-Revenge of the Sith novelization

 

Also, here is a segment of a duel between Kit Fisto and Kenobi in The Cestus Deception.

 

"Obi-Wan and Kit had been engaged for an hour now, each seeking holes in the other’s defense. Obi-Wan swiftly discovered that Kit was the better swordfighter, astonishingly aggressive and intuitive in comparison with Obi-Wan’s more measured style. But the Nautolan gave himself deliberate disadvantages, hampered himself in terms of balance, limited his speed, emphasized his nondominant side to force himself to full attention, the kind of full attention that can be best accessed only when life itself is at risk. To relax and feel the flow of the Force under such stress was the true road to mastery."

 

I don't think there is any argument to be had that would need me to prove Mace > Fisto, but I can pull more sources to prove it

 

So following this reasoning Mace > Kit > Obi-wan in their ability with a lightsaber.

 

Accounting in your claim that Kenobi has a weakness to force attack (not sure I actually agree with this), Kenobi is totally outclassed by Windu as a combatant. I certainly wouldn't say it would be a stomp though, Mace himself heralded Kenobi as a master of Soresu. But he isn't bringing anything to the table that Mace can't get around

Edited October 13, 2015 by PurpleDelirium

[jane_vakarian]

Windu's going to win. Obi-Wan is good, but hey, so many times when he couldn't handle even a close combat with non-force-user (remember Clone Wars, episodes with slavers on Kiros?) . Windu has a good technique, much better than Obi-Wan's. He even defeated Sidious (and then Ani came). Edited October 13, 2015 by jane_vakarian

[PadsterPwns]

So following this reasoning Mace > Kit > Obi-wan in their ability with a lightsaber.

 

This is coming from a massive Fisto fan so I'm not keen to say this but by ROTS the order is:

 

Mace > Obi > Kit

 

The evidence you used to get Mace > Kit > Obi-wan is flawed because it is from the novel The Cestus Deception which takes place only 6 months into the Clone Wars. Over the next 2 years Obi-Wan improves constantly, reaching his prime by ROTS whereas there is no sign of Kit improving over the Clone Wars as he was already in his prime.

 

On topic: Windu takes this after a very long fight at which point he starts abusing his force power advantage.

Edited October 13, 2015 by PadsterPwns

[S_W_LeGenD]

Isn't this obvious?

 

Mace Windu is arguably better in all aspects. Assuming that Obi-Wan Kenobi prevents Mace Windu from outdueling him, Mace Windu can resort to his Force powers to overcome Kenobi. I believe that Windu have advantage in command of the Force and raw power aspects.

Edited October 13, 2015 by S_W_LeGenD

[LordQordisz]

Windu's going to win. Obi-Wan is good, but hey, so many times when he couldn't handle even a close combat with non-force-user (remember Clone Wars, episodes with slavers on Kiros?) .

 

Check out chapter eighteen in Attack of the Clones when he's in hand to hand combat with Jango. He seemed pretty competent to me.

[cs_zoltan]

A discussion between Yoda and Kenobi amidst order 66, regarding a possible confrontation between the two and Sidious.

 

Now Obi-Wan did face him. "Palpatine faced Mace and Agen and Kit and Saesee - four of the greatest swordsmen our Order has ever produced. By himself. Even both of us together wouldn't have a chance."

-Revenge of the Sith novelization

 

Also, here is a segment of a duel between Kit Fisto and Kenobi in The Cestus Deception.

 

"Obi-Wan and Kit had been engaged for an hour now, each seeking holes in the other’s defense. Obi-Wan swiftly discovered that Kit was the better swordfighter, astonishingly aggressive and intuitive in comparison with Obi-Wan’s more measured style. But the Nautolan gave himself deliberate disadvantages, hampered himself in terms of balance, limited his speed, emphasized his nondominant side to force himself to full attention, the kind of full attention that can be best accessed only when life itself is at risk. To relax and feel the flow of the Force under such stress was the true road to mastery."

 

I don't think there is any argument to be had that would need me to prove Mace > Fisto, but I can pull more sources to prove it

 

So following this reasoning Mace > Kit > Obi-wan in their ability with a lightsaber.

 

Accounting in your claim that Kenobi has a weakness to force attack (not sure I actually agree with this), Kenobi is totally outclassed by Windu as a combatant. I certainly wouldn't say it would be a stomp though, Mace himself heralded Kenobi as a master of Soresu. But he isn't bringing anything to the table that Mace can't get around

 

Your first quote is a character statement that was proven wrong in the very novel you quoted from. Your second quote also doesn't matter as explained by PadsterPwns.

[Beniboybling]

Alright so I think I'd have to agree that Windu's distinct Force advantage would be a deal breaker here, so I'll throw in a bonus round, this time lightsabers only. Who wins now? I think I'll play Devil's Advocate and support Kenobi.

 

First off let's look at a particular telling passage from ROTS:

 

"He must have been trained by Count Dooku," Mace had said, "so you can expect Makashi as well; given the number of Jedi he has fought and slain, you must expect that he can attack in any style, or all of them. In fact, Obi-Wan, I believe that of all living Jedi, you have the best chance to defeat him."

 

...

 

"But, surely, Master Windu," Obi-Wan had said, "you, with the power of Vaapad- or Yoda's mastery of Ataro-"

 

Mace Windu had almost smiled. "I created Vaapad to answer my weakness: it channels my own darkness into a weapon of the light. Master Yoda's Ataro is also an answer to weakness: the limits of reach and mobility imposed by his stature and his age. But for you? What weakness does Soresu answer?"

 

Blinking, Obi-Wan had been forced to admit he'd never actually thought of it that way.

 

"That is so like you, Master Kenobi," the Korun Master had said, shaking his head. "I am called a great swordsman because I invented a lethal style; but who is greater, the creator of a killing form- or the master of the classic form?"

"I'm very flattered that you would consider me a master, but really-"

"Not a master. The master," Mace had said. "Be who you are, and Grevious will never defeat you."

 

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith novelisation

Windu actually establishes Kenobi as his peer as a lightsaber duelist, and has nothing but praise for his abilities. And on the topic of Windu being a match for Dooku, I'd remind everyone that Kenobi was as well:

 

He threw himself spinning up and away from the two Jedi to land on the situation table, disengaging for a moment to recover his composure - that had been entirely too close - but by the time his boots touched down Kenobi was there to meet him, blade weaving through a defensive velocity so bewilderingly fast that Dooku dared not even try a strike; he threw a feint toward Kenobi's face, then dropped and spun in a reverse ankle-sweep. But not only did Kenobi easily overleap this attack, Dooku nearly lost his own foot to a slash from Skywalker who had again come out of nowhere and now carved through the table so that it collapsed under Dooku's weight and dumped the Sith Lord unceremoniously to the floor...

 

...and this image, this plan, was so clear in Dooku's mind that he almost failed to notice that Kenobi met every one of his thrusts without so much as moving his feet, staying perfectly centered, perfectly balanced, blade never moving a millimeter more than necessary, deflecting without effort, riposting with flickering strikes and stabs swifter than the tongue of a Garollian ghost viper, and when Dooku felt Skywalker regain his feet and stride once more toward his back, he finally registered the source of that blinding defensive velocity Kenobi had used a moment ago, and only then, belatedly, did he understand that Kenobi's Ataro and Shii-Cho had been ploys, as well.

 

Kenobi had become a master of Soresu.

 

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith novelisation

Kenobi may have had the element of surprise but then Dooku was practically overwhelmed, collectively I think this is grounds for placing Kenobi in Windu's league. He was every bit the master of Soresu as Windu was Vaapad.

 

Therefore I don't think these claims that Windu wins out over Kenobi in raw skill is warranted, Kenobi really couldn't be any more skilled in Soresu than he is. He lacks Windu's versatility and energy but is every bit as technically skilled.

 

And in this respect I really don't see Windu being successful in dismantling Kenobi's defenses, especially considering that Kenobi has no fury for Windu to draw upon, instead the opposite, if anything his calming aura might have a negative effect on Windu's ferocity. And though Windu possesses more Force power to sustain him, Kenobi's stamina is excellent if not superior, considering Windu's style is far more aggressive and Force intensive.

 

On the other hand Kenobi's ability to give even Dooku pause, wielding a form purpose built for lightsaber dueling, demonstrates that 1. he is more than capable of keeping up with Windu and 2. he is capable of finding a weakness. Indeed I'd compare Windu's fighting style to Grievous', obviously far more refined but with the same focus on an erratic, unpredictable and rapid assault that revolves around delivering a blinding amount of blows in a rapid succession, overwhelming their opponent through the sheer ferocity of their attack, and by tearing apart openings in their defense.

 

Grievous' nigh inability to overwhelm Kenobi despite striking 20 times per second to me indicates that Windu find the speed and ferocity of his assault unsuccessful, with Kenobi's form possessing no weaknesses that Windu can exploit. Likewise any attempts made by Windu to outfence him will be flouted by Kenobi's equal technical skill.

 

In this respect I think that just as Windu believed Grievous would be able to anaylse and exploit a weakness in Windu's form, as Windu grows more exhausted and desperate, Kenobi will find and exploit a weakness, or otherwise exploit the high ground, giving Kenobi the win. So am I terribly mistaken, or can Kenobi win a lightsaber duel?

Edited October 13, 2015 by Beniboybling

[cs_zoltan]

So am I terribly mistaken, or can Kenobi win a lightsaber duel?

 

Kenobi stomps.

[cs_zoltan]

Nah, jk. Serious answer in a few.

[Jedi_riches]

It would be a interesting match certainly, the creator of a lethal style against the master of a defensive form its a fight that will go on a while, it could also be argued that Kenobi's perfect defence would equal Windu's shatterpoint ability and null it out.

 

As seen in his battle against Anakin, Kenobi can defend all day without really "breaking a sweat" but who knows what the "effects" of using Vaapad for the same amount of time could be, I wish I could remember the novel shatterpoint as I seem to remember Mace at his limits but I cant remember the reason.

 

In terms of Kenobi's losses against Dooku, in AToC he had not yet perfected his form 3 so the more precise form 2 could find gaps in the inperfected form, I think by the time RoTS he had perfected the form to such a extent that he could defend indefinitely waiting for an opportunity from either a mistake by his opponent or the chance to take the "high ground", his second loss was a unexpected force push, Windu's combat is not really known for utilising force techniques (certainly not in the films but I cant remember every fight in the clone wars cartoons).

[cs_zoltan]

So Windu wields the most offensive form, while Kenobi the most defensive. They both perfected their form, but Windu is still canonically more skilled than Kenobi. Which means he's one of the few who could break through his Soresu. Shatterpoint is porbably useless because of the Grievous feat.

On the other hand Beni raised a good point for Kenobi's stamina, and Vaapad's intensity. In his duel with Sidious Windu could've gone on forever without fatigue, but that's only because he drew on Sidious to fuel himself. Can't do that here.

Another thing is that Kenobi also has the apparent edge in endurance. Windu fell to his knees from a tazer, and cried in pain when Anakin cut off his hand, leaving him unable to fight. Kenobi on the other hand fought with shrapnel in his chest, or with lung melting poision.

Lastly he's a smarter duelist than Windu, which is something a lot of people underestimate. He's even more cunning than Shaak Ti in Windu's opinion (and that says a lot):

 

"Agreed." Mace Windu looked around the half-empty Council Chamber with a deepening frown. "And one last touch. Let's let the Chancellor know, through Anakin, that our most cunning and insightful Master—and our most tenacious—is to lead the hunt for Grievous."

 

Overall I'm inclined to agree with Beni. Mace is more powerful and skilled, but in turn Kenobi has better stamina, endurance, and he is smarter.

 

Kenobi wins 6/10.

 

PS: The Soresu/Ataru pairing is so *********** ridiculously effective.

[PadsterPwns]

As a pure swordsman (skill) I rate Windu higher than Kenobi but not by much. I think Kenobi takes this 5.5/6 due to his endurance and pure defensive mastery, I also think Kenobi's mastery of Sokan could come in handy here as the arena contains plenty of pillars to dodge behind. Add in his showings against Grievous, his performance against Dooku in ROTS and his feat of enduring Anakin's onslaught and I think it shows just how tight his defense is. Also, like cs_zoltan says, Kenobi's Ataru-Soresu combo is greatly effective and in my opinion is probably an ideal style to counter Windu, drag the fight out and then launch an offensive that takes advantage of his tired state. Kenobi could even use the environment in his favour as he has before, get Windu into a certain area then slice through a pillar and collapse it to either trap or distract him, though it is unlikely this alone would win him the match as Windu is cunning as well, however not as cunning as his opposition. Edited October 13, 2015 by PadsterPwns

[PurpleDelirium]

Your first quote is a character statement that was proven wrong in the very novel you quoted from. Your second quote also doesn't matter as explained by PadsterPwns.

 

How was my first quote proven wrong? Don't mean to sound hard-headed but I legitimately don't see what you're referring to. I concede on my second quote, I had forgotten that sparring match took place closer to Episode 2

[cs_zoltan]

How was my first quote proven wrong? Don't mean to sound hard-headed but I legitimately don't see what you're referring to. I concede on my second quote, I had forgotten that sparring match took place closer to Episode 2

 

That quote in this context is irrelevant, because:

• It's a character statement which is not absolute proof.
  
• Yoda went ahead and almost defeated Sidious alone, whereas Kenobi claimed that the two of them couldn't do that.
  
• Mace was heavily amped against Sidious, something he can't replicate against Kenobi.
  

 

Read Beni's post on how close Mace and Kenobi actually were.

[DARTHOSIRUS]

I think a fight between Windu and Kenobi would be similar to the Anakin vs Kenobi fight. Windu outclasses Kenobi in power, but Kenobi is a highly skilled swordsman, and his fighting style is specifically designed to handle highly offensive fighters. In the end Windu comes out on top. Obi wan could only defeat the superior Anakin by exploiting the environment to his advantage, and Windu is wise enough not to fall for any Kenobi's cheap tricks unlike douchebag Anakin. Edited October 18, 2015 by DARTHOSIRUS