Endurance v. Willpower (Shadow Tanking)

[XGrievusX]

To be fair, I was just using the numbers we've used in mitigation values (25% defense, 50% shield, 30% absorb) and assumed those were good estimates. But i wasn't too far off.

 

30% defense, 50% shield, and 50% absorb seem like decent DR numbers, but i think it'll take an extremely large amount of defense, shield, and absorb to reach those numbers, using your values of 25% defense, 30% shield, and 40% absorb seems to be a pretty good base line.

 

From the numbers both are giving I think almost all our gear will have to have defensive secondary stats on all our gear. Meaning that there will be very little room to exchange Endurance for willpower, and the gains in Health or DPS going in either direction will probably make little difference. It looks like BW has made the decision for us in that gear with tanking stats has more Endurance than Willpower.

 

You can use a DPS armor mod on your weapon and 4 pieces of armor but the increase in Wllpower would not be that tremendous. My issue is that in in a raiding enivironment a shadow tank would have to roll on an individual offensive mod (if they drop from bosses as indicaed before, which may have changed since artifact gear will have removable armor mods). They may also make an armor mod purchasable with tokens which would be the easiest way to aquire a DPS armor mod. If mods arent purchasable with tokens then they would have to buy 2 pieces of gear to get the piece the way they wanted. Which for the gains in DPS would be a grossly inefficient use of your tokens.

Edited January 16, 2012 by XGrievusX

[Kitru]

You can use a DPS armor mod on your weapon and 4 pieces of armor but the increase in Wllpower would not be that tremendous.

 

The increase is bigger than you might think. Just looking at the grade 22 mods, I believe that, earlier in this thread, someone did the math to point out that simply exchanging Force Wielder for Resolve generated a ~120 point difference (127 iirc, but I'm too lazy atm to go back and check). A 120 point difference is going to have a rather substantive effect upon your DPS.

 

As to the end game gear, my hope is that with BW making the endgame armor moddable and the mods able to be placed in other gear, they'll also give us access to the relevant mods (and, hopefully, if they make the sets attached to the mods, give us multiple versions of each mod so that we can actually tweak our stats the way we want to).

[Candy]

Health does not directly contribute to your survivability within Flashpoints or Operations. While solo, it has some utility if you are not at a point where the use of your own abilities and a healer companion allow you to overcome any incoming damage, even from champions.

 

Stacking Endurance is not an appreciable expenditure of gearing largely because its only contribution to tank survivability is to increase the amount of damage you can take without receiving any heals before you die. Since default hp is so high compared to incoming damage, stacking additional endurance has little to no comparative contribution to your survivability in legitimate tanking situations. Willpower, on the other hand, increases your damage output (which is *excellent* even when compared to pure DPS) and threat, making your allies less likely to die and allowing them to DPS harder without risk of pulling off of you.

 

As a tank, you should prioritize as follows: (Defense>Shield>Absorb)>Willpower>Endurance. Endurance just doesn't do enough to make it worthwhile to stack to any appreciable extent.

 

Agreed! Too many people seem to forget that Tanking is a whole role in itself, and that role doesn't just consist of stacking health while a healer spam heals you.

[Arbegla]

The increase is bigger than you might think. Just looking at the grade 22 mods, I believe that, earlier in this thread, someone did the math to point out that simply exchanging Force Wielder for Resolve generated a ~120 point difference (127 iirc, but I'm too lazy atm to go back and check). A 120 point difference is going to have a rather substantive effect upon your DPS.

 

Because you refuse to display the base damage (and take it into consideration when you did your math) we actually don't know what kinda of a substantive effect on your DPS the 120 willpower would do. (using your 200 willpower = 70 DPS, then 120 willpower = 42 DPS, but those numbers are next to meaningless without knowing how much you did originally)

 

So.. 120 willpower vs 120 endurance is what you'd be able to trade around. Which is about a 42 DPS increase, vs extra mitigation, extra self healing, and a higher hit point pool.. And we can't successfully compare the two without knowing all the variables (i/e, base damage of the powers, to figure out exactly how much of an overall increase the willpower will give)

[Arbegla]

Agreed! Too many people seem to forget that Tanking is a whole role in itself, and that role doesn't just consist of stacking health while a healer spam heals you.

 

Actually, Kitru is saying that a healer will be spamming heals on you constantly, so that is why endurance is next to meaningless, once you get to a point where spam healing will save you.

 

That is why Kitru is preaching so hard to stack willpower, because he's assuming that healers will just spam green numbers often and strong enough where any tank, with any hit points will be just fine, and if that assumption is correct, then you may as well stack willpower to boost your DPS.

 

Something to consider though, is 1) we don't know exactly how much of a benefit (per a percentage increase) willpower will give you, and 2) we do know exactly how much of a benefit (as a percentage increase) endurance will give you, both in a mitigation stand point (i/e a time until death metric) and in the amount of healing the extra endurance will fulfill, due to the self healing nature of Shadow tanks.

 

Endurance (and hit points themselves) are a form of mitigation for Shadow tanks due to the fact that they have multiple self heals that scale with max hit points, saying otherwise is going completely against the nature of what a Shadow tanks mitigation is all about.

[Kitru]

Actually, Kitru is saying that a healer will be spamming heals on you constantly, so that is why endurance is next to meaningless, once you get to a point where spam healing will save you.

 

First off, I'm saying nothing about spam healing. I actually *have* a healer at 50 so I can say from experience that spam healing is simply idiotic. I am saying that once you get enough hit points that your healer doesn't allow you to die from burst DPS additional Hp is worthless. It has nothing to do with spam healing, like you assume, and has everything to do with Endurance beyond a certain point doing nothing. If you think of Endurance as a tolerance for having a progressively less than perfect healer (imagine a perfect healer to be one that heals you of any damage you take immediately), stacking Endurance beyond the 1 shot range simply increases how bad a healer you can have before you die. Since the basic gear has more than enough Endurance on it to cover all but the *worst* healers in game (which shouldn't be coming to an HM FP or Op in the first place), there isn't a point in stacking Endurance.

 

Something to consider though, is 1) we don't know exactly how much of a benefit (per a percentage increase) willpower will give you, and 2) we do know exactly how much of a benefit (as a percentage increase) endurance will give you, both in a mitigation stand point (i/e a time until death metric) and in the amount of healing the extra endurance will fulfill, due to the self healing nature of Shadow tanks.

 

The problem with this argument is that it does nothing to actually counter the WP argument. It simply says "more data needed" when, honestly, anyone with a modicum of common sense will be able to say "ya, 70 DPS is *way* more useful than less than 10 hp/sec". We could get a more precise comparison going on, but it's meaningless since it would simply confirm what it already patently obvious.

 

Endurance (and hit points themselves) are a form of mitigation for Shadow tanks due to the fact that they have multiple self heals that scale with max hit points, saying otherwise is going completely against the nature of what a Shadow tanks mitigation is all about.

 

You keep saying this and I keep having to point out that, yes, although there *is* some survivability benefit to stacking Endurance beyond the larger health pool it is so insignificantly small as to be functionally nonexistent. It's important we remember the *scope* of the changes in question. In order to appreciably (as in, "the difference wouldn't simply be rounded off thanks to significant figures") decrease your net damage taken (damage - healing = net damage taken), you would need to stack *so much Endurance* that you would see more survivability increase from the actual hit points than from the self healing.

 

Over and over you bring this up and *every* time I have to say this: it is *technically* true, but, in reality, it's a complete fiction.

[WEMF]

Kit, you speak like everyone's wearing full T13 gear or something...

 

My experience as a healer is that when we're still progressing (not farming) through raids, generally everybody is going to be taxed to a certain extent. Having more HP means that the healer can use more force/energy efficient heals rather than flash heals. Also, when we are oom, there is a period when the tank won't get heals while we wait for some cool downs or just wait for mana regen, so having that extra HP can be the difference between victory and wipe.

 

Yeah, maybe it's a reflection of poor gearing from healers as well, but like I said, we're all progressing through the game and if we're still trying to gear up, then tanks should help out the healers by having more HP. There are also other situations like when the tank goes out of LOS or gets thrown out of the healer's range, or when the healer can't be standing still to cast large heals, that having extra HP would be a nice buffer.

Edited January 17, 2012 by WEMF

[Kitru]

Using that same reasoning, Tanks should be stacking Willpower way more than Endurance since the Enrage timers are so tight on bosses. "Helping out other roles" is a blade that cuts both ways.

[Arbegla]

First off, I'm saying nothing about spam healing. I actually *have* a healer at 50 so I can say from experience that spam healing is simply idiotic. I am saying that once you get enough hit points that your healer doesn't allow you to die from burst DPS additional Hp is worthless. It has nothing to do with spam healing, like you assume, and has everything to do with Endurance beyond a certain point doing nothing. If you think of Endurance as a tolerance for having a progressively less than perfect healer (imagine a perfect healer to be one that heals you of any damage you take immediately), stacking Endurance beyond the 1 shot range simply increases how bad a healer you can have before you die. Since the basic gear has more than enough Endurance on it to cover all but the *worst* healers in game (which shouldn't be coming to an HM FP or Op in the first place), there isn't a point in stacking Endurance.

 

Except others have said that stacking endurance, like you have preached against, for Hard Mode Operations (as in the highest tier of raiding) is the only way to successfully deal with the raid mechanics, and that current gear levels, regardless of whether you stack willpower or endurance, is actually extremely over geared, so walking in with a fresh level 50 in vender purples is enough to be able to do just about anything you need them to go, aside from hard mode operations, which is basically the only thing that matters for hard code raiders which are the only people who would be min/maxing enough to care about which stat to stack to make themselves more effective.

 

The problem with this argument is that it does nothing to actually counter the WP argument. It simply says "more data needed" when, honestly, anyone with a modicum of common sense will be able to say "ya, 70 DPS is *way* more useful than less than 10 hp/sec". We could get a more precise comparison going on, but it's meaningless since it would simply confirm what it already patently obvious.

 

Here's the thing Kitru. That 10hp/second translates into a 11.4% increase a tanks time until death, which ironically enough is a measurement of the 'point at which your healer can keep you alive for'. It also translates into a decrease in overall damage by .004%. This means that the healer has 11.4% more time to react to the tanks hit points falling, and they have to heal .004% less overall hit points.

 

We don't know what that 70DPS actually translates into. saying 'Well, 70DPS is obviously better then 10hp/second because its a higher value.' Doesn't really tell you anything about what exactly that 70DPS affects. If you have 7,000DPS and you add 70DPS to it, you increased your overall DPS by .01%. Which if the boss has 7 million hit points, and your doing 7,000DPS, then you kill the boss in 1000 seconds. Adding 70 DPS to that numbers lowers it down to 990.099 seconds, or about a .0099% decrease in the fights duration.

 

And without knowing exactly how much DPS you had before, you can't actually figure out exactly how much that 70DPS would help you, especially when that 70DPS is being padded by multipliers that also apply to the base, for example PA's 100% critical chance, and the 75% damage increase of a triple stacked Harnessed Shadows.

 

You keep saying this and I keep having to point out that, yes, although there *is* some survivability benefit to stacking Endurance beyond the larger health pool it is so insignificantly small as to be functionally nonexistent. It's important we remember the *scope* of the changes in question. In order to appreciably (as in, "the difference wouldn't simply be rounded off thanks to significant figures") decrease your net damage taken (damage - healing = net damage taken), you would need to stack *so much Endurance* that you would see more survivability increase from the actual hit points than from the self healing.

 

I never said it was a very large amount, but the amount is still here, and discounting it completely negates from the overall mitigation of a shadow tank. I've already proved this to you when i compared Elusiveness to Mental Fortitude. That literally shows that not just does extra hit points increase overall self healing, but that the increase is significant enough to counter the benefits of lowering Resilience's cool down.

 

I'll quote myself here, so you can see exactly what I mean, especially when you agreed on the overall mutual satisfactory conclusion.

 

36% total mitigation from all sources, with an 11.11% uptime of an additional 65% mitigation from force/tech powers. Force/tech powers are 50% of incoming damage, so you have (65% * (11.11%/2)) or a total of 3.61% mitigation value, for a grand total of 39.61% mitigation. With 1% endurance increase, you have 20175 hp, with 135.51hp/second self healing. Your time until death is (20175 / ((4300 * (1 - 39.61%) - 135.51)) or (20175 / (2596.77 - 135.51)) or (20175 / 2461.26) or about 8.20 seconds until death.

 

36% total mitigation from all sources, with an 8.33% uptime of an additional 65% mitigation from force/tech powers. Force/tech powers are 50% of incoming damage, so you have (65% * (8.33%/2)) or a total of 2.71% mitigation value, or a grand total of 38.71% mitigation. With 3% endurance increase, you have 20525 hp, with 137.2hp/second self healing. Your time until death is (20525 / ((4300 * (1 - 38.71%) - 137.2)) or (20525 / (2635.47 - 137.2)) or (20525 / 2498.27) or about 8.22 seconds until death.

Over and over you bring this up and *every* time I have to say this: it is *technically* true, but, in reality, it's a complete fiction.

 

You've actually already agreed before on how a mere 2% increase in endurance can translate to more overall mitigation then a 15 second decrease on Resilience. You've admitted that the benefit in not just added overall hit points, but the increase in mitigation (via self healing) is also enough to benefit you, even on something as small at a 2% increase.

 

How is that any different then now?

Edited January 17, 2012 by Arbegla

[WEMF]

Using that same reasoning, Tanks should be stacking Willpower way more than Endurance since the Enrage timers are so tight on bosses. "Helping out other roles" is a blade that cuts both ways.

 

Yeah, and your main role is to stay alive and not get the DPS killed! If the DPS can't handle the enrage timer, your insignificant increase in DPS from resolve mods in your light sabre is not going to turn the tide.

 

On the other hand, if you can have enough HP to hang on for a few seconds more for a healer's cool down, it might buy the raid another minute of DPS time. And that is significant.

 

Personally, I also panic a lot more when I see a tank's health drop so quickly, so I have to watch the tank a lot closer and can't be healing the others as well. But then that's just me...

[Kitru]

Here's the thing Kitru. That 10hp/second translates into a 11.4% increase a tanks time until death, which ironically enough is a measurement of the 'point at which your healer can keep you alive for'.

 

No, it doesn't. The 11.4% increase is due almost *exclusively* to the fact that you have 2k more hit points. If you *honestly* believe that 10 hp/sec is going to make you more survivable when dealing with damage quantities in the thousands per second, you're deluding yourself. This is why the metric you're attempting to use here (and continue to use because it's the only one that you can make an appreciable argument for) is so fundamentally flawed.

 

It also translates into a decrease in overall damage by .004%. This means that the healer has 11.4% more time to react to the tanks hit points falling, and they have to heal .004% less overall hit points.

 

This is pretty much the only appreciably true thing you've said this entire time. *Yes*, you will increase the healer reaction window by 11.4% but that is not the same as increasing survivability by 11.4%. Once the healer reaction window is large enough, anything beyond that value is pointless.

 

And bringing up the less than a percent of a percent additional mitigation from healing as if it were actually something to consider is simply asinine. Seriously. The increase to self healing is virtually nonexistent. It so far below the threshold of observation that you demonstrate the vast weakness of your argument by continually bringing it up as if it actually had any purpose.

 

We don't know what that 70DPS actually translates into. saying 'Well, 70DPS is obviously better then 10hp/second because its a higher value.' Doesn't really tell you anything about what exactly that 70DPS affects. If you have 7,000DPS and you add 70DPS to it, you increased your overall DPS by .01%. Which if the boss has 7 million hit points, and your doing 7,000DPS, then you kill the boss in 1000 seconds. Adding 70 DPS to that numbers lowers it down to 990.099 seconds, or about a .0099% decrease in the fights duration.

 

Once again, ignorance is your only legitimate counter (and you're doing bad math there again. 70 DPS is a 1% of 7000 DPS, not .01%). Do you honestly believe that your DPS is in the several thousands? Our biggest hitting attack deals 2k in 1.5 seconds. Assuming for a second that all we do is spam that (knowing that we don't), our DPS would be ~1333. A 70 DPS increase would be a 5% increase. *And yet we know that it is actually substantially more than this*.

 

Go back a few of my posts and look at the "1 extra Project every 30 seconds" argument. That right there pretty much sums it up. We don't need to know how much damage it deals to know it's better. It's patently obvious.

 

As I have said *repeatedly*, we don't need to calculate what our DPS is because, even with the most liberal estimates of tank DPS, the 70 DPS that we're calculating would translate into *substantially better* improvements in performance compared to the *virtually undetectable* improvements in performance from Endurance. I don't need to do any math to tell you that 5 Defense Rating is going to do less for my chances at succeeding at a fight than 1000 armor. The only way they could even be *remotely* close together is if the conversion rates are *insane*.

 

especially when that 70DPS is being padded by multipliers that also apply to the base, for example PA's 100% critical chance, and the 75% damage increase of a triple stacked Harnessed Shadows.

 

This isn't even a concern. You keep bringing it up because you don't know what you're talking about. Seriously. It's getting annoying. Bonus damage isn't simply added *after* all of your percent mods. It's multiplied in the exact same way. Not factoring in those percent benefits is, as I am having to say *way* too often in this discussion, completely asinine.

 

I never said it was a very large amount, but the amount is still here, and discounting it completely negates from the overall mitigation of a shadow tank.

 

No, it doesn't. The additional mitigation via healing provided by that is lower in value than *rounding errors*. *Overhealing* is going to provide a bigger impact on performance than your much vaunted improved mitigation. *Variability in proc rate* will have a bigger impact on performance.

 

I've already proved this to you when i compared Elusiveness to Mental Fortitude.

 

First off, that discussion was based entirely on questioning the benefits of a specific mitigation mechanism's improvement when weighed against a general benefit and heavily favored the additional Endurance in the math. The only reason to take the Endurance is if you don't plan on using Resilience... ever. If you plan on using it to any appreciable extent (which I would hope since it's one of our strongest mitigation mechanisms), there isn't even any contest.

 

That literally shows that not just does extra hit points increase overall self healing, but that the increase is significant enough to counter the benefits of lowering Resilience's cool down.

 

The conclusion was less about demonstrating that Endurance was somehow better than a reduction in a CD than it was about determining the overall contribution of Elusiveness. Honestly, if I thought you were going to be this obtuse about the Endurance v. Willpower discussion and use the fact that I admitted that there was some variability in the value of Elusiveness v. Mental Fortitude as to why I should admit that your claim may have some *semblance* of legitimacy, I wouldn't have admitted that you had a point back then. The "conclusive" math still indicates that Elusiveness contributes more, especially when you weigh the additional tiny portion of survival time that Mental Fortitude provides weighed against simply ignoring more incoming damage, since mitigated damage is better than damage healed.

 

You've actually already agreed before on how a mere 3% increase in endurance can translate to more overall mitigation then a 15 second decrease on Resilience. You've admitted that the benefit in not just added overall hit points, but the increase in mitigation (via self healing) is also enough to benefit you, even on something as small at a 3% increase.

 

You're reading that wrong. It's really getting old having to correct you on your own supporting material.

 

First off, I never claimed that Mental Fortitude translated into superior mitigation. Mental Fortitude has nothing to do with mitigation. It doesn't reduce damage taken at all.

 

Secondly, I never admitted that the additional self healing would provide *any* appreciable increase in survivability. That was always *you* making the claim that a couple points of additional healing per second would matter.

 

Third, I never said that Mental Fortitude was better. At best, it is equivalent. The mutually satisfactory conclusion was that we arrived at a point where we were both comfortable with the others' answer as well as our own: Mental Fortitude was better if you didn't use Resilience on CD, but Elusiveness was definitively better if you did (especially if you used it well). This was the conclusion arrived at. It was not that Elusiveness and Mental Fortitude were realistically equivalent given an optimal playstyle. It was that playstyle determined how much value you got out of Elusiveness and, if your playstyle was not one that took advantage of it, the net benefits were close enough that you could get away with taking Mental Fortitude.

 

You once again remember incorrectly, and it falls to me to remind you.

[Kitru]

Yeah, and your main role is to stay alive and not get the DPS killed! If the DPS can't handle the enrage timer, your insignificant increase in DPS from resolve mods in your light sabre is not going to turn the tide.

 

Assume a 5 minute enrage timer. 70 DPS over 5 minutes is 21000 damage. I can actually tell you that I have personally experienced fights where, even with well geared DPS, we hit the enrage timer and wiped or entered into an immunity phase (Darth Malgus in FE) with the boss at less than 21k hp. So, yes, that 70 additional DPS over the course of a fight *will* matter.

 

On the other hand, if you can have enough HP to hang on for a few seconds more for a healer's cool down, it might buy the raid another minute of DPS time. And that is significant.

 

Have you actually *seen* an enrage timer happen? It's not "doubled damage" or something that would allow you to parley that 2k additional hit points into a couple seconds of additional life. It's "boss hit you, you're dead". The 2k hit points are going to have no benefit when a boss enrages because, if you get hit, you're dead: overkill is just that much.

 

Now, if you're arguing that the 2k additional hit points could be useful outside of an enrage timer, I have to seriously wonder if you've actually seen a boss fight in *any* end game content. First things first, that 2k *is not* a "couple of seconds". It is, at most, 1 second. The only time it would matter is for burst damage scenarios and, honestly, that's what we get survivability CDs for. If you honestly need to give your healer(s) more reaction time more times than you have CDs, I'll repeat what I have said time and time again: no amount of improving the tank is going to make you succeed since it's obviously a healer problem.

 

If we make the *very* reasonably assumption that everyone in the raid does their job, the 2k hit points are not going to be useful. Any reasonably decent healer is going to keep the tank above 50% at all times by simply using conversation healing. Only a horribly undergeared or horribly played healer would need the additional hp cushion in order to survive, and, even then, chances are *exceptionally* good that said undergeared or horribly played healer would simply let you die in the first place since they can't keep up the heals that are needed.

 

I have a tank *and* a healer both at 50 that have both done end game content. I can say with certainty, from *both* sides, that Endurance stacking is simply pointless. With Willpower, you at least get *some* real benefit from those points rather than the purely psychological.

[Dracyula]

Because you refuse to display the base damage (and take it into consideration when you did your math) we actually don't know what kinda of a substantive effect on your DPS the 120 willpower would do. (using your 200 willpower = 70 DPS, then 120 willpower = 42 DPS, but those numbers are next to meaningless without knowing how much you did originally)

 

So.. 120 willpower vs 120 endurance is what you'd be able to trade around. Which is about a 42 DPS increase, vs extra mitigation, extra self healing, and a higher hit point pool.. And we can't successfully compare the two without knowing all the variables (i/e, base damage of the powers, to figure out exactly how much of an overall increase the willpower will give)

 

Arbegla, we have already done the math to compare WIL to END. In this argument it doesn't matter how much DPS you already do. It matters how much the groups DPS is.

 

I think that we all agree that we are talking about how effective WIL or END will be to THE GROUP KILLING THE BOSS.

 

Let me throw some more numbers out there. I will be using the example that we used earlier, boss health 1,000,000, 5 minute fight, boss does 4300 dps.

 

I will be using the 200 WIL = 70 DPS for the comparison.

 

In response to the quote I will be converting for 120 WIL/120 END.

 

Some of this will be familiar from previous posts.

 

GROUP DPS is 3,333, total damage done to the boss is 1,000,000

 

Incoming DPS is 4300, total incoming damage is 1,290,000

 

120 WIL adds 42 DPS, the fight lasts for 300 seconds, so in effect 120 WIL adds 12,600 damage.

 

This is an increase in damage by 1.2% (12,600/1,000,000), in essence ending the fight 3.78 seconds sooner.

 

120 END adds 6 HPS, over 300 seconds this equates to 1800 additional healing.

 

This is an increase in healing by .13% (1800/1,290,000).

 

So, when comparing the added mitigation (.13%) from END to the added DPS (1.2%) from WIL, the WIL seems to vastly outperform END.

 

*The only argument should be; Does the added HP from END add enough time for the healer to react? Does this benefit offset the DPS gain from WIL? Is this extra time going to be needed?*

 

Please, no more talk of the self healing added by endurance because of how shadow tanks work. This argument would only be valid if it is decided that END and WIL are equal otherwise.

 

D

[WEMF]

Assume a 5 minute enrage timer. 70 DPS over 5 minutes is 21000 damage. I can actually tell you that I have personally experienced fights where, even with well geared DPS, we hit the enrage timer and wiped or entered into an immunity phase (Darth Malgus in FE) with the boss at less than 21k hp. So, yes, that 70 additional DPS over the course of a fight *will* matter.

 

 

 

Have you actually *seen* an enrage timer happen? It's not "doubled damage" or something that would allow you to parley that 2k additional hit points into a couple seconds of additional life. It's "boss hit you, you're dead". The 2k hit points are going to have no benefit when a boss enrages because, if you get hit, you're dead: overkill is just that much.

 

Now, if you're arguing that the 2k additional hit points could be useful outside of an enrage timer, I have to seriously wonder if you've actually seen a boss fight in *any* end game content. First things first, that 2k *is not* a "couple of seconds". It is, at most, 1 second. The only time it would matter is for burst damage scenarios and, honestly, that's what we get survivability CDs for. If you honestly need to give your healer(s) more reaction time more times than you have CDs, I'll repeat what I have said time and time again: no amount of improving the tank is going to make you succeed since it's obviously a healer problem.

 

If we make the *very* reasonably assumption that everyone in the raid does their job, the 2k hit points are not going to be useful. Any reasonably decent healer is going to keep the tank above 50% at all times by simply using conversation healing. Only a horribly undergeared or horribly played healer would need the additional hp cushion in order to survive, and, even then, chances are *exceptionally* good that said undergeared or horribly played healer would simply let you die in the first place since they can't keep up the heals that are needed.

 

I have a tank *and* a healer both at 50 that have both done end game content. I can say with certainty, from *both* sides, that Endurance stacking is simply pointless. With Willpower, you at least get *some* real benefit from those points rather than the purely psychological.

 

This is where you sound like you don't have any real raiding experience. When people are still undergeared and fairly new to the raid, people will screw up. People will stand in the fire, and people will get stunned and can't heal. I've had so many situations where we barely got through by the tinniest sliver of HP on the tank, or the last DPS standing after the tank died. In a perfect theory crafting situation, it would be fine and dandy, but in real life, things get messy!

 

In addition, the tank can't always be standing around and just hitting. They might have to run to pick up adds (especially the adds that are harassing the healer!) and so they are not really dpsing. So I'm not sure how much your will power numbers can translate to DPS, whereas until everyone gets well geared up, every HP counts!

[Kitru]

This is where you sound like you don't have any real raiding experience.

 

I have massive amounts of raid experience and end game content experience and I can count on a single hand the number of times that a tank survives by only a sliver of hp out of the several hundred, if not more, boss fights I've done in the course of my gaming experience. It also doesn't make sense within the confines of the discussion either.

 

Remember: I'm only referring to stacking Willpower over Endurance once you get over the required threshold needed for your healer to keep you alive. Since it's impossible to stack Willpower *exclusive* of Endurance and the tangential Endurance you get *regardless* of how you gear is more than enough to get you over the threshold, Willpower will do more to contribute to your raid's success than stacking more redundant Endurance.

[WEMF]

I have massive amounts of raid experience and end game content experience and I can count on a single hand the number of times that a tank survives by only a sliver of hp out of the several hundred, if not more, boss fights I've done in the course of my gaming experience. It also doesn't make sense within the confines of the discussion either.

 

Remember: I'm only referring to stacking Willpower over Endurance once you get over the required threshold needed for your healer to keep you alive. Since it's impossible to stack Willpower *exclusive* of Endurance and the tangential Endurance you get *regardless* of how you gear is more than enough to get you over the threshold, Willpower will do more to contribute to your raid's success than stacking more redundant Endurance.

 

If your raid team is so coordinated and so on the ball that you don't have problems with tanking health, then there's no need for this discussion at all. The minuscule difference in health or dps should not make a difference whatsoever; your group will down the boss irregardless.

 

Maybe it's my guild but we always start with less than ideal conditions, having to get used to the mechanics, starting with sub-par gear, so it will always start out with fights being pretty messy and with lots of deaths. If we happen to scrape through, it would generally be because of the tank staying up. We praise our tanks for running around to pick up adds and saving healers/dps who pulled aggro, and we never bothered to look at their dps.

 

Yeah, even if you have enough HP to take one large hit that needs immediate healing, like I said sometimes the tank healer might be oom, get a lag spike, or taken out of action and the raid healer might have to jump in. So having a larger hp buffer will help prevent a wipe. All of these I've experienced before.

[Arbegla]

This is pretty much the only appreciably true thing you've said this entire time. *Yes*, you will increase the healer reaction window by 11.4% but that is not the same as increasing survivability by 11.4%. Once the healer reaction window is large enough, anything beyond that value is pointless.

Except when the healer is unavailable. People have said this already Kitru. You can not simply assume the healer (or healers) will be able to give the tank full and complete attention 100% of the time.

 

Hard mode SoA. Both healers get mind trapped, do you survive? Same situation, 1 healer gets mind trapped, do you survive? Is the 0, or 1 healer support you now have for the duration of the mind trap enough to keep you, and the raid, alive?

 

And bringing up the less than a percent of a percent additional mitigation from healing as if it were actually something to consider is simply asinine. Seriously. The increase to self healing is virtually nonexistent. It so far below the threshold of observation that you demonstrate the vast weakness of your argument by continually bringing it up as if it actually had any purpose.

 

Its there. It happens, and with the new scaling on CT, it could contribute more. Looking at the equations themselves shows that:

 

So using the 16k hitpoints your time until death would be (16,000 / (2251.76 - 115.33)) or about 7.49 seconds.

 

Using 18k hit points, your time until death would be (18,000 / (2251.76 - 125)) or about 8.46 seconds.

Look at (2251.76 - 115.33) vs (2251.76 - 125) that is 2136.43 vs 2126.76 just based off the additional self healing your receiving, meaning the self healing itself, is increasing your overall mitigation by .45%. That isn't counting the extra hit points your receiving as a by product of increasing your hit points (which allows you to magnify that .45% decrease even more, translating into the 11.4% overall increase to the reaction time of the healers)

 

 

Once again, ignorance is your only legitimate counter (and you're doing bad math there again. 70 DPS is a 1% of 7000 DPS, not .01%). Do you honestly believe that your DPS is in the several thousands? Our biggest hitting attack deals 2k in 1.5 seconds. Assuming for a second that all we do is spam that (knowing that we don't), our DPS would be ~1333. A 70 DPS increase would be a 5% increase. *And yet we know that it is actually substantially more than this*.

 

Go back a few of my posts and look at the "1 extra Project every 30 seconds" argument. That right there pretty much sums it up. We don't need to know how much damage it deals to know it's better. It's patently obvious.

 

The problem with saying 'It's giving you 1 extra project every 30 seconds' is twofold. One problem is that now your saying upheaval is a 100% proc rate (as that is the damage you used, Project + upheaval) and the second problem is that your assuming the damage increase from PA itself isn't enough to account for some (or even most) of that added damage. PA forced Project to crit, regardless of how much damage it actually does, so when you use Project with PA, it automatically does 150% MORE damage. This makes you '1 project every 30 seconds' argument look very fishy, as how much damage is PA already giving you? Logic would say, 50% of that damage is just due to PA procing and you taking advantage of that (due to the flat out 150% increase in damage) so really, your only getting 1/2 a project every 30 seconds (or about 35DPS increase) once you understand that the procs and abilities your including in your 70DPS assumption ALSO boost the base damage by the exact same amount.

 

This is the 'schooling' you tried to teach me. Its your OWN MATH here Kitru. All I'm asking is for you to FOLLOW IT.

As I have said *repeatedly*, we don't need to calculate what our DPS is because, even with the most liberal estimates of tank DPS, the 70 DPS that we're calculating would translate into *substantially better* improvements in performance compared to the *virtually undetectable* improvements in performance from Endurance. I don't need to do any math to tell you that 5 Defense Rating is going to do less for my chances at succeeding at a fight than 1000 armor. The only way they could even be *remotely* close together is if the conversion rates are *insane*.

 

This isn't even a concern. You keep bringing it up because you don't know what you're talking about. Seriously. It's getting annoying. Bonus damage isn't simply added *after* all of your percent mods. It's multiplied in the exact same way. Not factoring in those percent benefits is, as I am having to say *way* too often in this discussion, completely asinine.

 

I actually have no idea what our DPS is, as you flat out refuse to even try to figure it out. And without knowing that, you can not honestly tell me that you 70DPS will even matter, as it is accounting for procs that affect the base damage as well as the 'bonus' damage we're questioning here.

 

Your ~70DPS increase is a far cry from the ~40DPS i calculated, and the main difference in regards to how we each came to our separate conclusions are as follows:

 

1) The rotation.

 

You seem to still want to assume equal splits of Double Strike and Project, and saying that 10% of your time will be applying TK Thrust, when only 9.1% of your time is applying your debuffs (slow time and force breach) that seriously contradicts your OWN rule by a pretty large margin. At BEST you'll be using TK Thrust half as often as Force Breach and Slow Time, as you only want to use TK Thrust every 30 seconds, and your required to use Force Breach and Slow time at least every 15 (or 18 to maintain the debuff) Your also assuming 100% up time for PA (which would account for your equal split of Double Strike and Project, but not for the increased use of TK Thrust) which is simply a flaw (that you've even said is flawed, but refuse to correct that math on because "I operated under as assumption that PA would proc 100% of the time; it's close enough to reality to work perfectly fine" except 50% is nowhere near 100%, and assuming as such literally DOUBLES your expected values.

 

Where as I took your Rule literally, and crafted a rotation based off that, with a clause in it to replace Double Strike with Saber strike after you get your PA proc per 10 seconds, allowing you to manage your force consumption. This means that within 30 seconds, your using Force breach and Slow time twice each, TK Thrust once, Project 3 times, and Double strike often enough to proc your 3 Project (i used 8) then the rest of your time is using Saber strike (using 8 double strikes, gives you 4 GCDs left in your 30 second time frame, giving you 4 saber strikes)

 

My rotation will better suit a real world example, and allow you to adjust accordingly without assuming 100% up time on all of your procs and bonuses. This allows for a much better average to be made.

 

and 2) When to apply PA and HS

 

We both know they need to be applied, and they both affect the 'bonus' damage and the 'base' damage. I didn't add them in my equation as, and you've been so kind about pointing this out, it affects the end result the same way. So it doesn't matter WHEN you apply the PA and HS benefits as long as you consider that base damage is affected by them as well, and in a equal amount.

 

This is pointed out and addressed here

 

Take a look at these 2 equations:

W is base damage Z is bonus critical or bonus damage (via talents) x is coefficient and y is the bonus damage via willpower (or the power stat)

 

((W * Z) + (X * (Y * Z))) = (((W + (X * Y)) * Z)

 

For example, let’s assume 100 base damage, 10 bonus damage, .79 coefficient, and a 75% bonus damage added to the overall.

 

Your equation is saying that the coefficient is now 1.3825 (.79 * .75) without realizing that you base damage is also now 175. Either way, that 10 bonus damage is really only giving yourself 7.9% on overall damage. Let’s compare:

 

(((100 * 1.75) + ((10 * (.79 * 1.75)) = 188.825

Vs.

((100 + (10 * .79)) * 1.75) = 188.825

 

Now, one it adding 7.9 damage to 100 damage (or 7.9% increase) and the other is adding 13.825 to 175 damage (or 7.9% increase)

 

As long as you take into consideration that while your number may literally be higher, its affecting the OVERALL equation by the EXACT SAME PERCENT. Our goal NOW is to find that percent so that we can properly compare the two different variables. Without knowing what percentage increase we have, which I swear, once I hit level 50 I'll figure out, because you seem incapable of doing it yourself to better this overall argument, it makes it very difficult to say one way or another if its a large enough increase to matter.

 

No, it doesn't. The additional mitigation via healing provided by that is lower in value than *rounding errors*. *Overhealing* is going to provide a bigger impact on performance than your much vaunted improved mitigation. *Variability in proc rate* will have a bigger impact on performance.

 

As I explained above, its a .45% decrease in damage, due to the 9.67hp/second difference, on top of the added benefit of getting a large pool of hit points to better leverage the decrease in damage. That is not within rounding errors. Its not within variability in proc rate, though it would be better to say that about your 70DPS increase (as your assuming a 50% proc rate will suddenly and magically average out to a 100% proc rate, and thus you can count it as 100% in any DPS calculations you make)

 

 

The conclusion was less about demonstrating that Endurance was somehow better than a reduction in a CD than it was about determining the overall contribution of Elusiveness.

 

You flat out contradicted yourself here, as the overall contribution of Elusiveness is a reduction in a CD. Especially when compared to the overall benefit of Mental Fortitude (i/e, extra endurance) So unless the argument was about something else that you just pulled out of your hat the argument itself was all about demonstrating that endurance is somehow better then a reduction in a CD.

 

Now, your conclusion is that the overall benefit really depends on the situation at hand, as Resilience is a specific mitigation skill, and endurance is a general mitigation tool, but they they both give an averaged out increase of about the same, with a very slight lean for endurance given averaged instances.

 

The "conclusive" math still indicates that Elusiveness contributes more, especially when you weigh the additional tiny portion of survival time that Mental Fortitude provides weighed against simply ignoring more incoming damage, since mitigated damage is better than damage healed.

 

You much be looking at different numbers then I am as I took an overall average, of both damage healed, and damage mitigated and showed that there was a small lean for having extra endurance, if you assume a 50/50 split on tech/force powers being used throughout a fight. Now, if that assumption is proved wrong (i/e, the majority of the powers used are tech/force, like it is in PvP) then you would be correct that Elusiveness, and thus Resilience itself, would benefit more.

 

Now, while I can see the point of your statement that any damage mitigation (i/e, damage you didn't take) is better then damage healed, due in part to having to take the damage originally, the end result is the same. If you were to take 100 damage, and managed to mitigate 50 of it, you took 50 of the damage. If you were to take 100 damage, and then healed 50 of it very quickly afterwards, you still only took 50 damage. Its called effective hit points, and any mitigation value, be it defense, shield, absorb, self healing, or even endurance itself affects it.

 

You're reading that wrong. It's really getting old having to correct you on your own supporting material.

 

First off, I never claimed that Mental Fortitude translated into superior mitigation. Mental Fortitude has nothing to do with mitigation. It doesn't reduce damage taken at all.

 

Secondly, I never admitted that the additional self healing would provide *any* appreciable increase in survivability. That was always *you* making the claim that a couple points of additional healing per second would matter.

 

Third, I never said that Mental Fortitude was better. At best, it is equivalent. The mutually satisfactory conclusion was that we arrived at a point where we were both comfortable with the others' answer as well as our own: Mental Fortitude was better if you didn't use Resilience on CD, but Elusiveness was definitively better if you did (especially if you used it well). This was the conclusion arrived at. It was not that Elusiveness and Mental Fortitude were realistically equivalent given an optimal playstyle. It was that playstyle determined how much value you got out of Elusiveness and, if your playstyle was not one that took advantage of it, the net benefits were close enough that you could get away with taking Mental Fortitude.

 

You actually said this:

Either way, it's a sufficiently close argument that the question of "best" is more appropriately determined by the fight (or raid) in question. If Force/Tech damage is a common concern and exists in discreet blocks of intense damage (as for most Force/Tech damage sources), the superior uptime on Resilience is likely the better path because being able to fully resist large amounts of incoming damage for short periods more often can buy you a lot of leeway. If it isn't (or simply isn't a common enough occurence), the Endurance would be more useful since it is a general tool of survival rather than a specialized one.

 

The only real answer is "if you like Resilience, Elusiveness is better; if you don't, Mental Fortitude"

 

Which from what I got from what, is that it depends on both the fight mechanics (amount of force/tech powers used throughout) and your play style itself. If you don't like Resilience for whatever reason, then Mental Fortitude is better, if you do like Resilience, then Elusiveness is better. But overall, in the grand scheme of 'averaging out mitigation values' You said this:

 

f it's estimated time til death assuming a specific amount of incoming damage and only internal heals (your method), your answer is probably the best. It best defines the "solo" experience since you're ignoring the contribution of heals. In a group setting, it represents the window of time that you're able to survive without getting any assistance from your healers; once you get healed back up to full, you reset the timer.

 

Meaning, that in a solo environment, or when using a time until death metric (which I've been using on a near constant basis) extra endurance is more useful overall, and even for raid encounters, it gives you an estimated time that you have without the need of a healer, making it a viable measurement of durability, as you just reset the time once your put back to 100%. These are you own words Kitru, which you are now trying to argue over.

 

Also, again using your own words here:

70 DPS is *not* an insignificant number: over the course of a short 30 sec fight (fighting solo), you're getting an extra 2100 damage. Since that's about as much as a PA Project with an Upheaval proc deals (at least for me), you can consider that 200 WP as 1 free Project every TK Throw or so, which, when you consider how much of our damage comes from Project, that's a pretty big increase, especially when weighed against the almost entirely marginal gains provided by the additional End.

 

You only mention a solo experience. Not a group setting. In which case, the endurance will greatly improve upon your solo experience, due to not having a healer right on top of you at all times. Your not comparing the numbers correctly, or at least not holding YOURSELF to the high standard that you forced ME to achieve with my numbers. Please at least follow your own strict rules before trying to tear mine apart. That is all I am asking here.

[Arbegla]

Arbegla, we have already done the math to compare WIL to END. In this argument it doesn't matter how much DPS you already do. It matters how much the groups DPS is.

 

I think that we all agree that we are talking about how effective WIL or END will be to THE GROUP KILLING THE BOSS.

 

That is entirely the point I'm trying to make here as well Drac. You and me came to an understanding on it, by comparing apples to apples. Kitru now wants to add oranges to the equation and throw everything else out.

Let me throw some more numbers out there. I will be using the example that we used earlier, boss health 1,000,000, 5 minute fight, boss does 4300 dps.

 

I will be using the 200 WIL = 70 DPS for the comparison.

 

In response to the quote I will be converting for 120 WIL/120 END.

 

Some of this will be familiar from previous posts.

 

GROUP DPS is 3,333, total damage done to the boss is 1,000,000

 

Incoming DPS is 4300, total incoming damage is 1,290,000

 

120 WIL adds 42 DPS, the fight lasts for 300 seconds, so in effect 120 WIL adds 12,600 damage.

 

This is an increase in damage by 1.2% (12,600/1,000,000), in essence ending the fight 3.78 seconds sooner.

 

120 END adds 6 HPS, over 300 seconds this equates to 1800 additional healing.

 

This is an increase in healing by .13% (1800/1,290,000).

 

So, when comparing the added mitigation (.13%) from END to the added DPS (1.2%) from WIL, the WIL seems to vastly outperform END.

 

*The only argument should be; Does the added HP from END add enough time for the healer to react? Does this benefit offset the DPS gain from WIL? Is this extra time going to be needed?*

 

 

My only issue here is your undervaluing endurance, by not accounting for other forms of mitigation. We've had this go around once before, and as a tank, you wouldn't be taking the full 4300DPS. Armor itself negates about 36% of that, before you even consider defense, shield, or block. Which increases the value of endurance, as its counteracting the incoming damage (via HPS)

 

The real numbers look closer to this, after other forms of mitigation:

 

2251.76DPS incoming DPS

 

3333.33 group DPS

 

And until I can hit 50 and show different values, i have no choice but to use Kitru's example of 200 willpower =~70DPS, and my own 200 endurance = ~10hp/second.

 

Total damage = 2251.76 * 300 = 675,528 damage.

 

added DPS = 42 * 300 = 12,600

(12,600/1,000,000) = 1.26% increase

 

added HPS = 6 * 300 = 1,800

(1,800/675,528) = .26% increase

 

This changes it from a 10:1 (1.26%:.13%) scale to a 5:1(1.26%:.26%) scale. Other forms of mitigation add to the value of endurance, allowing the extra HPS to mean more overall, the more base mitigation you have, the more valuable endurance and self healing become, as they don't need to heal as much incoming damage.

Please, no more talk of the self healing added by endurance because of how shadow tanks work. This argument would only be valid if it is decided that END and WIL are equal otherwise.

 

In the amounts that you can actually slot endurance to willpower as per Oddmyth's post

Also I just figured out that each point of WIL is worth 1.1 points of END

 

This may not account for Mental Fortitude, adding another 3% to that, making Willpower worth 1.13 points of endurance. So when you slot out all of your endurance for willpower, your actually giving up, according again to Oddmyth,

So at max level that 216 WIL is actually worth 237 END.

Factoring in Mental Fortitude boosts the endurance value to 244 when compared to 216 willpower, which is about a 10:9 ratio.

[contrebasse]

The value of 4300 already accounted for mitigation.

 

A remark about the usefullness of WIL, let's consider that a shadow tank deals half the dps of a dps. Adding 200 WIL to the tank is like adding 100 of its main stat to a dps. Would anyone say that adding 100 to a min stat of a dps is not useful ?

 

Still at the end, it always comes down to "can I survive the OH SH** moments ?

[oddmyth]

Hard mode SoA. Both healers get mind trapped, do you survive? Same situation, 1 healer gets mind trapped, do you survive? Is the 0, or 1 healer support you now have for the duration of the mind trap enough to keep you, and the raid, alive?

 

If a healer gets mindtrapped or thrown on Soa, the answer is simple. Pop Resilience.

Elusiveness > all on that fight.

 

Again its not 2k hitpoints, that's solely in full Rakata gear with your 140 armoring/mods switched out. Its 750 HP on average and no it will not make an appreciable difference when every hit you take is above 2k.

[rakuenCallisto]

I really wish I was better at math, then I'd know what the hell is going on in this thread.

 

I've been lost for pages now.

[Kitru]

I really wish I was better at math, then I'd know what the hell is going on in this thread.

 

I've been lost for pages now.

 

You don't really have to be good at math to be taking part in this discussion. Just look at Arbegla. He still has no idea what he's doing.

[Tyrandaa]

I really wish I was better at math, then I'd know what the hell is going on in this thread.

 

I've been lost for pages now.

 

Summary:

 

Argument 1) You only need enough health to not get 2-shot or, in my experience, some tanks use a 4 second window's worth of damage as their health target.

 

Argument 2) You should keep stacking health.

[Arbegla]

You don't really have to be good at math to be taking part in this discussion. Just look at Arbegla. He still has no idea what he's doing.

 

I know exactly what I'm doing Kitru, but I'm beginning to think you have no idea what your doing, as your doing an incorrect rotation, and the improper way to account for PA and HS in your 70DPS equation, and then saying they it is completely correct.

 

Your improper rotation basically says that you will use Double strike and Project equal amounts, TK Thrust 10% of the time Slow Time 11.1% of the time, and Force Breach 9.1% of the time, with Saber strike using the rest of the animation time, and your saying 'Its close enough to reality to be accurate.'

 

The issue with that is assuming 100% uptime with PA, which would DOUBLE your expected damage of Project, and as Project our hardest hitting power, its a HUGE increase in DPS that you'll never actually see in game. Your also assuming that you'll use TK Thrust between Slow Time and Force Breach (Slow time is 11.1%, TK Thrust is 10%, Force Breach is 9.1%) yet you only want to use TK Thrust every 30 seconds, and you are REQUIRED to use Slow time every 15 seconds, and Force Breach every 18 seconds, so how they could be that close to each other over any length of combat is beyond me. You would literally use Force Breach TWICE as much as TK Thrust just to maintain the debuffs.

 

This throws your entire calculations away, as they will NEVER match in game experiences. You will never average a 50% proc rate into a 100% proc rate, you will never use TK Thrust as much (or even more) then your debuff powers, and in order to make your rotation even more, you need to be using Double Strike A LOT more then 15% of the time.

 

If you truly only used 15% of your time doing Double strike, assuming a 50% proc rate, you would need between 2 and 3 Double strikes to trigger your Proc, (making your proc rate between 75% and ~88%) so that means you would have between a 5% and 7.5% use of Project, and as Project and Tk Thrust are related on a 3:1 ratio, you would only use TK Thrust between 1.67% and 2.5%. Those numbers would match your in game experiences MUCH better then your assumptions.

 

Your also using PA and HS to pad your DPS estimates, without considering (or caring) that are also affect the base. This is my main issue. Your preaching '200 willpower = 70DPS' but not saying that maybe 15DPS of that is also boosting the base, so your actually only gaining 55DPS. Just so you know, that 15DPS is an estimate, as you flat out refuse to show how much of an increase your actually getting. You just like your big number, and want to stick with that.

 

You've been trying to 'school' me on how that math works, and even spent 3 pages typing it all out, yet you want to IGNORE that completely to make your point that your number is bigger then mine. I figure that is obvious enough that ~70DPS is higher then ~40DPS, but as PA and HS are accounting for roughly 15DPS of your number, and that same 15DPS would affect your base numbers, your number is extremely misleading.

 

Look at this equation Kitru, because you seem to want to flat out ignore it.

((W * Z) + (X * (Y * Z))) = (((W + (X * Y)) * Z)

 

That is what we are doing here. Any extra damage you get from PA and HS (which is Z) is affecting your base in the exact same way it affects your bonus damage, so the best way to find out exactly how much bonus damage you'll get from willpower is to completely discount PA and HS, which my math shows.

 

If PA and HS are adding a straight 15DPS increase, then your base is being boosted by that same 15DPS, so your not actually gaining ANYTHING from PA and HS. Its a flat boost to your overall damage. You seem to not understand that.

 

Looking at your numbers again, and just assuming your rotation is correct and would eventually match your overall performance (which I know is incorrect, but you seem hell bent on assuming as such) and discounting PA and HS (as any bonus they give you also boost the base damage in the exact same way) your looking at these numbers:

 

SS: 14 diff / 14.1 bonus damage = 1.0 coefficient * 39.8% = .398

DS: 22 / 14.1 = 1.56 coefficient * 15% = .234

Project: 27 / 14.9 = 1.81 coefficient * 15% = .272

FB: 11 / 14.9 = .74 coefficient * 9.1% = .111

ST: 19 / 14.9 = 1.27 coefficient * 11.1% = .141

TK: 47 / 14.9 = 3.15 coefficient * 10% = .315

 

So again, using your own numbers you have:

 

(.398 + .234) * 14.1 = 8.911

(.272 + .111 + .141 + .315) * 14.9 = 12.5

 

Adding the 2 together gives you 21.411DPS for 74 willpower, meaning for 200 willpower you have 57.87DPS.

 

So you can clearly see that PA and HS is adding 15.43 damage (using your actual value of 73.3) to both your base and your bonus damage. This means that PA and HS, naked, accounts for 21.05% of your total damage.

 

Now, the above is STILL using the incorrect rotation, as no matter how many times your use Double Strike, your 50% proc for PA is never going to average out to 100%, and no matter how many times you use TK Thrust, it'll never equal (or come close to) the number of times you use Slow Time and Force Breach, by your OWN RULE.

 

Really Kitru, if anyone has no idea what they are doing it's you, as you simply want to have the biggest number possible, without actually wanting to find out what that bigger number is affecting.

[Arbegla]

The value of 4300 already accounted for mitigation.

 

This is incorrect. Its been data mined that bosses do about 6464 damage per hit, outside of large incoming damage. Without a combat log, this is all we have to go on. Assuming mobs are limited to the GCD as we are, then you have (6464/1.5) or about 4309.33 incoming DPS. That is where the 4300 incoming DPS comes from, so it is before mitigation values.

A remark about the usefullness of WIL, let's consider that a shadow tank deals half the dps of a dps. Adding 200 WIL to the tank is like adding 100 of its main stat to a dps. Would anyone say that adding 100 to a min stat of a dps is not useful ?

 

Still at the end, it always comes down to "can I survive the OH SH** moments ?

 

That is basically the argument here. Finding out exactly how much DPS willpower will give you, vs how long your tank can survive 'oh excrement' moments.

 

If a healer gets mindtrapped or thrown on Soa, the answer is simple. Pop Resilience.

Elusiveness > all on that fight.

 

Again its not 2k hitpoints, that's solely in full Rakata gear with your 140 armoring/mods switched out. Its 750 HP on average and no it will not make an appreciable difference when every hit you take is above 2k.

 

This isn't about Elusiveness or even about Mind over Matter, but that only buys you 5 seconds of immunity from Force/Tech power. If anything hits you besides Force/tech powers, your still going to take damage, and you still won't have a healer to back you up.

 

Using your 750 hit points (or about 75 endurance) using your own conversion rate, your looking at 68 willpower (as endurance is worth 1.1 willpower) Would 68 willpower matter? Using Kitru's skewed numbers, your looking at a DPS increase of 24.9. Even blowing that up over a 5 minute fight, your only looking at an increase of 7,476.6 damage.

 

Would that increase in damage matter? Are you literally getting the boss down to less then 7.5k hit points before they enrage and kill everyone? That is the bulk of the question here, what is worth more overall? A slightly more durable tank, or a slightly more damaging tank? Because regardless of what you pick, its a slight increase either way.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Arbegla