Endurance v. Willpower (Shadow Tanking)

[Anrew]

Just curious what is a good range endgame for endurance, willpower, defense(not sure if this is defense or def rating), shield and absorb?

As a healer I will say thus far my best experiences have been with a shadow tank. I'm probably not the best healer since I don't do much aside from pop some dots in my downtime otherwise I'm using healing trance in order to keep force high for situations when everyone is taking damage. I probably need to rethink this since enrage timers are there. Anyway just wanted to say I actually enjoy healing shadows in fps. At least in some situations it does seem a little easier.

Edited February 17, 2012 by Anrew

[Duvodiad]

OK. Let me begin by saying I am in full favor of people gearing how they please. Let me also add I successfully tank Eternity Vault and Karagga’s Palace weekly, and the occasional Hard Mode when my schedule allows. In regards to this debate, here is why I have chosen Endurance over Willpower:

First, I want to establish a healing rotation that is force positive. That is, you regenerate more force in the rotation then you actually use to do the rotation. This will be a purely healing rotation, or a rotation based purely on healing while tanking(thus we use Double Strike for chances at Particle Accelerations), to highlight the differences in an Endurance over Willpower build.

Slow Time – ST

Saber Strike – SS

Double Strike – DS

Project – P

Telekinetic Throw – TT

Force Regeneration base is 8.0 F/S; talented, this reaches 10.4 F/S fixed. We will not be adding in regeneration from Double-Bladed Saber Defense as it is not guaranteed.

Therefore, every GCD you can regenerate 15.6 F/S

The force cost of every skill I listed for your healing Rotation, therefore, is: (Negative is regenerated force, Positive is consumed force)

ST – (30-15.6) or 14.4

SS – (0-15.6) or -15.6

DS – (25-15.6) or 9.4. If talented for 2 less force cost, this then becomes (23-15.6) or 7.4

P – (45-15.6) or 29.4. If talented for 6 less force cost, this then becomes (39-15.6) or 23.4

TT – ((30/1.5)-15.6) or -0.6 over 3 seconds.

With this information, we can now build a rotation over one minute of a fight:

ST at t=0, SS at t=1.5, DS at t=3.0, SS at t=4.5, P at t=6.0, SS at t=7.5, ST at t=9.0, SS at t=10.5, TT at t=12.0-13.5

That is the first set of the rotation, which ends at a used force of -3.4, or 3.4 over regenerated thus far in the fight.

SS at t= 15.0, ST at t=16.5, SS at t=18.0, DS at t=19.5, SS at t=21.0, P at t=22.5, SS at t=24.0, ST at t = 25.5, SS at t=27.0, TT at t=28.5-30.0

That is the second set of the rotation, which ends at a used force of -38, or 38 over regenerated thus far in the fight.

SS at t=31.5, ST at t=33, DS at t=34.5, SS at t=36.0, P at t=37.5, SS at t=39.0, ST at t=40.5, SS at t=42.0, TT at t=43.5-45.0

That is the third set of the rotation, which ends at a used force of -25.8, or 25.8 over regenerated thus far in the fight.

SS at t=46.5, ST at t=48.0, SS at t=49.5, DS at t=51.0, SS at t=52.5, P at t=54.0, SS at t=55.5, ST at t=57.0, TT at t=58.5-60.0

That is the fourth set of the rotation, which ends at a used force of -29.2, or 29.2 over regenerated thus far in the fight.

Notice, this accounts for Kinetic Wards cost, but unfortunately not Force Breach. Although unfortunate, we are aiming for most heals, so it will have to rest. However, since Force Breach adds another GCD of time, this means that in a real fight, only three heals are done. Then again, with the enhanced regeneration of Double-Bladed Saber Defense, it may or may not work out to not needing as many SS’s.

Thus, we can heal 36%-48% off purely using TT.

This also allows for Tank CD’s to be popped, as they are all off the GCD. As previously mentioned, Kinetic Ward’s cost is over regenerated every rotation, each of which last roughly 15 seconds.

 

So, let’s have a theoretical made up then!

First tank, he has stacked Endurance over Willpower, and has 22k Health. He will be referenced as 22k.

Second tank, he has stacked Willpower over Endurance a bit, and has 18k health. He will be referenced as 18k

Both use Battle Readiness off CD (I know, ***??!) This gives a 5% heal per minute, or 10% per two minutes. This also augments Combat Techniques healing during one minute. So what does Combat Techniques heal do at maximum?

Well, in the minute that has the faster proc rate, it does ((15 / 3) * 425)+((45 / 4.5) * 425) = 6375 health healed maximum.

In the minute without the faster proc rate, it does ((60 / 4.5) * 425). As 60/4.5 is 40/3, we will say it procs 13 times, with every third minute procing a 14th time. Thus, our adjusted number is: 5525.

Therefore, per minute, Combat Technique heals 5950 health per minute on each tank.

So, with TT and Battle Readiness added in, each tank heals: 41%-53% + 5950 per minute.

The percentages of health healed passively by Combat’s MAX healing is therefore:

18k – 33.0556%

22k – 27.0455%

Add this to the TT and Battle Readiness value, and we get:

18k – 74.0556%-86.0556%

22k – 68.0455%-80.0455%

In straight numbers, this adds to:

18k – 13330-15490 per 60 seconds

22k – 15060-17610 per 60 seconds

And, in HPS:

18k – 222.1667-258.1667 HPS

22k – 251-293.5 HPS

This increase in HPS of 28.8333-35.333 in favor of the 22k tank means that the endurance per minute on this rotation is between 0.0725 and 0.0875 per point of Endurance.

If a boss does 750 DPS, the tanks then mitigate through self-heals:

18k – 29.6222%-34.4222%

22k – 33.4667%-39.1333%

The difference in Mitigation is then: 3.8444%-4.7111%

Let’s say that the 18k tank stacked 300 Willpower over the 400 Endurance and gained (300 * 0.2) 60 DPS more than the 22k tank.

Let’s then declare a 1,000,000 health boss at 750 DPS vs a group of 1 tank, 5 DPS, and 2 healers.

The 22k tank does 500 DPS, the 18k tank does 560 DPS, and the rest of the group does 3000 DPS.

5 minutes in, the enrage timer will hit. Is the boss dead?

The DPS burned 900,000 of the health in the 300 seconds they had. The 18k tank burned through 168000 health in 300 seconds. The 22k tank burned through 150000 health in 300 seconds, meaning the boss died within the enrage timer.

Now let’s add group benefits in! The difference in health, if we take the mitigation difference of 3.8444% and 4.7111%, was 7150-10600 after 300 seconds, or 23.8333-35.3333 DPS taken. This frees the healers for the 22k tank, who wear gear similar to DPS gear for healing (power, surge, crit) to deal 45 DPS each, or 90 DPS total, over the fight. Now the 22k tanks group does:

Tank: 150,000 Damage Dealt

DPS: 900,000 Damage Dealt

Healers: 27,000

Total Damage: 1,077,000

And the 18k tanks group:

Tank: 168,000 Damage Dealt

DPS: 900,000 Damage Dealt

Healers: 0 Damage Dealt

Total Damage: 1,068,000 Damage Dealt

 

Also, the Will > End, then Tank stat mods only have 9 more tank stat. That's 54 more of one stat, or a dispersal among all 3... That is a pittance if you were already at 450 without these better mods and the new mods flip outs with put you to 500-550. If you use the tank stat formulas quoted in the tanking primer, the dropoff of usefulness is around 550 for almost all stats, and it is difficult to get to that point on all three anyway. At any rate, 9 more defense/shield/absorption doesn’t add enough tank stats to give you a 3.8444%-4.7111% increase in mitigations as in comparison. They may decrease the difference, but if you are going for high mitigation the healing from the 22k still adds more.

 

This is also a fairy-tale set, as crits and such will factor in, but the difference in mitigation persists anyway.

 

Anyway, that’s my two cents, I’m sure someone will come by and tell me I did math wrong somewhere . Like I said, IDRC how you gear, but that’s why I choose Endurance over Willpower, because I feel it mitigates a bit better than a Willpower over Endurance build.

[Arbegla]

Another thing to consider, is this

 

That is our new rotation. It's force sustainable, and doesn't use Double Strike at all.

 

Stacking more endurance, and using TK throw every 12-18 seconds allows you to be constantly healing, not counting Combat Technique's proc, or even Battle Readiness. Being able to skip Double Strike also allows you to be seamless (your filling in any gaps on cool downs with Saber Strike, and if absolutely everything is on cool down, and you need more damage, you could use Double Strike, but its just not sustainable.)

 

If someone wants to run the numbers on that to compare DPS to HPS or really anything else they are more then welcome, but preliminary testing shows that Endurance > Willpower using that above rotation, having more survivability is infinity better then doing slightly more damage.

Edited February 19, 2012 by Arbegla

[Deathstroke]

Another thing to consider, is this

 

That is our new rotation. It's force sustainable, and doesn't use Double Strike at all.

 

Stacking more endurance, and using TK throw every 12-18 seconds allows you to be constantly healing, not counting Combat Technique's proc, or even Battle Readiness. Being able to skip Double Strike also allows you to be seamless (your filling in any gaps on cool downs with Saber Strike, and if absolutely everything is on cool down, and you need more damage, you could use Double Strike, but its just not sustainable.)

 

If someone wants to run the numbers on that to compare DPS to HPS or really anything else they are more then welcome, but preliminary testing shows that Endurance > Willpower using that above rotation, having more survivability is infinity better then doing slightly more damage.

 

 

Just ignore this guy all wrong

[bennydag]

So this long discussion about Endurance vs Willpower and Absorption vs Defense got somehow to nowhere. I was looking for a long time for the perfect Stats for my shadow tank. I had the dilemma shall I focus on Absorb or on Defense, shall i grab endurance or willpower.

 

Bioware Say's clearly:

Primary Stat: Willpower

Secundary Stat: Endurance

 

If you do only Flashpoints and operations it doens't matter how much Damage you do, you have to hold threat, survive as long as possible. So yes.... Endurance would be in this case better. The problem is: You don't do only Flashpoints and Operations. You do Daily quests, pvp etc. Where is the sense to fight against a Imperial/Republic player and survive 3 min longer, but don't do enouph damage to kill him?

 

My suggestion is to focus on both stats and not only on 1 Stat.

 

To my Absorption vs Defense problem:

 

Absorption is only usefull if you have a hight Shield rating, here are for example my stats:

 

21% Defense chance

39% Shield chance (without Buff)

42% Absorption

 

If i would know the cap for absorptio i would put more in defense, but unfortionaly i dont know how high i should put defense to have a good balance between them. I noticed that PvP Gear preferes more Defense then absorption, while Pve Gear balances it a bit more.

 

Does anyone know the min/max for defense and absorption?

[Arbegla]

In this instance, you gain no time for the healer by adding END.

 

 

You start off by saying you gain on time at all, then you go on to say you gain 20% of the intial time? Please clarify what you're actually trying to say, because you are merely talking in circles.

Once again, the only thing that matters for additional time is the difference in over healing, period.

This has been, and always will be my main point. Over healing happens, and when it does, having more endurance (and thus more hit points) allows your healer to take advantage of that time frame more often then if you had less endurance (and thus less hit points)

To further illustrate my point, I will use an example.

 

Tank 1 - 16k Max HP,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Tank 2 - 18k Max HP

 

Tank 1 - 80% = 12.8k,,,,,,,,,,,,, Tank 2 - 80% = 14.4k (These are the points when the healer will cast a heal).

 

A heal of 3k will put tank 1 at 15.8k, and tank 2 at 17.4k, neither tank was over healed, so there is no additional time.

 

That would be all well and good, if you only had to heal the tank once. Looking over a system of hits, heals, and crit heals, and completely ignoring any other form of healing (via self healing) you can clearly see a repeatable cycle where the tank with more hit points, needs less healing over time. As I've already showed you. Over healing is going to happen, and there is so way that you would be able to eliminiate over healing at all, for either tank.

A crit heal of 5k will over heal tank 1 by 1.8k, and tank 2 by 1.4k.

 

The important thing here is the difference. There is a difference of 400 health.

 

Now for maths sake, lets just say that the additional health for tank 2 adds 2 seconds to the TTD metric.

 

The difference in over healing happens to be 400 health, which is 20% of the initial HP gain (2k). This means that Tank 2 gained 20% of 2 seconds, which is .4 seconds.

 

I'm really not sure how you can even go that route, as both tanks would be at 100% health. It doesn't matter how much they are over healed, they are both restored to 100%. I've already shown you, that you then repeat the cycle again. As I've already showed you.

 

Pushing it further, you can see how the cycle works. 4 hits tank 1 needs a heal, 3 more hits, tank 1 needs another heal, 2 more hits, tank 1 needs another heal, then 3, then 2, until a crit, where its back to 4, 3, 2, 3, 2. Tank 2 needs his first heal after 5 hits, then 3, then 2, until a crit, where its back to 5, 3, 2, 3, 2. Every cycle, Tank 2 take take 1 more hit then tank 1, giving the healer that is healing tank 2 more time to do other things once tank 2 is restored to full health.

The point is: this exact instance would have to happen [b]5 times[/b] in a fight to gain the same amount of time that the initial TTD provided.

 

EDIT: Not to mention, the healer has to be very skilled to make effective use of this time. A tank adding WIL has to make no extra effort to add his dps.

 

D

 

I don't understand how you can say the additional time you would gain is divided by the amount of over healing. If the tanks are at 100% health, it doesn't matter how much you overhealed them by, they at still at 100%, allowing you to repeat the cycle over again, and heal the tank with more hit points less often. I've already shown you that with my scenarios.

Just ignore this guy all wrong

 

Please explain how I'm wrong, when I'm merely quoting what Sithwarrior.com, the leading theory crafters for SWTOR (think Elistest Jerks for WoW) have come to agree on?

 

I mean really, if you want to argue, go for it, but they have already done the math, run the simulations, and figured out the proper way to gear up and use your rotation.

 

If you'd like to tell me how I am wrong, then you'd have to also explain how Sithwarrior.com is wrong.

[Arbegla]

So this long discussion about Endurance vs Willpower and Absorption vs Defense got somehow to nowhere. I was looking for a long time for the perfect Stats for my shadow tank. I had the dilemma shall I focus on Absorb or on Defense, shall i grab endurance or willpower.

 

Bioware Say's clearly:

Primary Stat: Willpower

Secundary Stat: Endurance

 

If you do only Flashpoints and operations it doens't matter how much Damage you do, you have to hold threat, survive as long as possible. So yes.... Endurance would be in this case better. The problem is: You don't do only Flashpoints and Operations. You do Daily quests, pvp etc. Where is the sense to fight against a Imperial/Republic player and survive 3 min longer, but don't do enouph damage to kill him?

 

My suggestion is to focus on both stats and not only on 1 Stat.

 

Daily quests, PvP, etc are all solo activities, where your damage really doesn't matter. Mobs don't regenerate hit points in combat (just like players) and you can very easily interrupt most healing abilities. If you can't die, but you are able to deal damage to them, then you have nothing to worry about, as you will be able to kill them sooner or later.

 

Bioware only says our Primary stat is Willpower because of the fact that Aim, Cunning, and strength don't benefit us at all. Saying "stack willpower because bioware says its out main stat" is ignoring the fact that any other stat (cunning, aim, strength) does basically NOTHING for us at all.

 

Also, for a tank, 80% of the gear has higher endurance on it then willpower. This is by design, as tanks are not meant to deal massive amounts of damage, but they are meant to hold threat, and be able to take a hit. The other 20% of the gear that you could put higher amounts of willpower in are basically select mods. That is what we are arguing right now, is it worth it to find mods with higher willpower on them over endurance, just for the sake of possibly doing more damage (while giving up surviability for it) and would that extra damage even matter?

To my Absorption vs Defense problem:

 

Absorption is only usefull if you have a hight Shield rating, here are for example my stats:

 

21% Defense chance

39% Shield chance (without Buff)

42% Absorption

 

If i would know the cap for absorptio i would put more in defense, but unfortionaly i dont know how high i should put defense to have a good balance between them. I noticed that PvP Gear preferes more Defense then absorption, while Pve Gear balances it a bit more.

 

Does anyone know the min/max for defense and absorption?

 

the DR on defense is about 30%, shield/absorption have a DR of 50%. Once you get to about 25% defense, you start feeling the affects of DR, and once you hit about 40% shield/absorb you start feeling DR.

 

You have a base defense of about 16%, a base shield of 35% (with kinetic ward) and a base absorption of 24%. You want to stack equal amounts of defense and absorption until you absorpion matches your shield, then stack equal amounts of everything until you hit DR (basically, stack defense and absorption until you have an absorption of 35%, and once you hit 25% defense, stop stacking defense (or stack very little) and focus on keeping your shield and absorption equal as much as possible.

[Screttle]

it is the art of fine balance... finding the happy medium where you utilies your defensive skills to there peaks and find yourself at the optimal point of deminishing returns where building other states become much more viable.

 

throwing numbers around about what you think is meant to happen, but no one knows what the 100% of the values effect and there are way to many variables to even make an outsiders guess with two builds based on game mechanics.