Endurance v. Willpower (Shadow Tanking)

[Redderic]

they are both rather essential.

 

shadow tanks are notorious for our self heals which all scale off of percentages of total health.

thus having more endurance increases our self heals which benefits us greatly.

 

on the other hand

wisdom increases force and melee dmg thus increasing threat generation which is also majorly benefitial.

 

truly it is all based on what you want.

some say END>WIS and some say WIS>END while i think END=WIS.

take what you want.

[TrevNYC]

The only thing I'm going to say to that, and then I'm going to drop it because it's just not worth continuing and I'm heading out for the weekend soon anyway, is that you and I both know better than to say healers are allowed to be perfectly efficient.

 

No one's allowed to be perfectly anything. None of the models assume perfection, so quibbling over hyper-simplified examples intended to prove abstract points probably isn't fruitful. That's why it's hilarious how long this thread has gotten to make what should have been a pretty simple point to people who put it in context. To use some completely arbitrary numbers just to show what the argument is:

 

A perfect healer (i.e., robot) would heal the tank up in 4 seconds.

An average healer would heal the tank up in 6 seconds.

A below average healer would heal the tank up in 8 seconds.

A terrible healer would heal the tank up in 10 seconds.

A willpower-stacking tank would survive for 11 seconds.

An endurance-stacking tank would survive for 13 seconds.

A healer who doesn't know how the fight works or is vastly undergeared or is an actual chimpanzee would heal the tank up in 14 seconds.

 

Kitru: There's no difference between the willpower-stacking tank and the endurance stacking tank in survivability, because the only healer that would have a significant problem keeping him up probably shouldn't even be there, and in any event would let either tank die.

 

Arb: 13 > 10, so the endurance tank is more survivable. There's some healer out there who might need 12 seconds to keep the tank up, like a terrible healer who gets disabled for 2 seconds.

[TrevNYC]

That is my main argument. That once you reach a point where your healer can keep you alive (whatever that point may be) you might as well increase your overall endurance, and thus increase that TbM so that your healer can do other things during that time.

 

I know. I am defining the point of "keeping me alive" not at the bare minimum to maintain a rotation of purely heal spells. The "efficient rotation" I describe already has enough cushion in it so that the healer can dps (which is essential to some healers' rotations anyway), so that if something crazy happens the healer can trade a dps ability for a heal, instead of scrambling for emergency heals.

 

Once I've given the healer some leeway, I then turn to my dps buddies. They like playing too. I don't consider it my job as a tank to ONLY make the healer's job easier. I think the whole group's needs should be met. The QB sends a lot of love to his offensive line, because they are crucial to his survival. But he ignores the receivers and backs at his peril.

 

So, because I don't agree with Kitru that threat isn't a problem (you said he "proved" this, but all he did was state it), or rather I at least believe it can be a problem as I can't guarantee that I will be the best geared member of the group I'm in, I don't think trying to boost group dps through the healer is very efficient. Bullet points why:

 

* it's not clear there's that much more dps to be had. Some of those default dps abilities healers have don't make sense to use.

* I'm skeptical that a healer's added dps would exceed my added dps by a wide margin.

* Even if the dps tradeoff between tank/healer is a wash, if I increase my threat ceiling, then the dps don't have to hold back as much, and in my experience dps players are capable of pulling aggro from the tank. Increasing the tank's dps increases the dpsers' maximum 'safe' output by a multiple of the tank's dps, which is further multiplied by the number of dpsers in the group, whereas increasing the healer's dps output by the same amount does not.

* I'm perfectly capable of taunting, but that has risks. I might be slow with it for some reason, or the healer might panic and do something inefficient, which wastes more resources and dps.

Edited January 27, 2012 by TrevNYC

[Kitru]

That is my main argument. That once you reach a point where your healer can keep you alive (whatever that point may be) you might as well increase your overall endurance, and thus increase that TbM so that your healer can do other things during that time.

 

The problem with this is that it is fundamentally *not true*. Healing has *nothing* to do with the amount of time that the healer has to bring the tank back to full. It has *everything* to do with the amount of damage that a tank takes in that period of time and the amount of damage that a healer can heal. It wouldn't matter if you had 100k hp or 10k hp. As I have said *repeatedly*, the only difference between the two from a healer's perspective is that the individual window between being forced to spam heal the tank back to full is longer; the ratio of healing to not-healing time is *exactly the same* since that ratio is determined *exclusively* by the ratio of incoming damage to incoming healing.

 

Try this thought experiment on for size:

 

A tank has 100k hp. Without any other information aside from an assumption that a healer is present and capable of keeping up with incoming damage, how long does the tank have before he needs to be healed? How much time will the healer have to devote to bringing him back to full health? What does max hp have to do *at all* with the amount that a target needs to be healed or how much time a healer has to do other things? None of these questions *have* an answer.

 

An enemy deals 30 DPS and a healer can generate 40 HPS. Without any information other than an assumption that the tank will be able to survive a *reasonable* period of time before getting healed, how long does a tank have before dying? How much time will a healer have to devote to keeping the tank alive? What is the ratio of time that a healer will have to provide to the tank to keep the tank solvent? The only one of these questions that doesn't have an answer is the first one, largely because it doesn't really matter. The others have a *very* explicit answer: the healer has to devote 3 out of every 4 periods of time to keep the tank solvent.

 

The entire point of this thought experiment is to demonstrate that max hp is important only as a binary value: do you have enough for your healer to keep you alive or do you not have enough for your healer to keep you alive? There is no difference between having just barely enough and having *way* more than enough from a survivability standpoint: your healer still has to spend the same amount of time healing you. There is no difference between being just barely under the threshold and having way too little: your healer simply can't keep you alive. Either way, it's a purely binary response: you either have enough for your healer or you don't. Since it's binary, more Endurance is simply present to make you progressively more and more capable of taking on progressively worse (and progressively less and less likely to actually be present) healers; keep in mind that when I talk about worse healers, I'm referring to reaction speed differences (since that's what TtD cares about) rather than throughput healing capability (since, if you don't have the throughput healing to keep your tank up, you're tank is dead regardless of how skilled you are).

 

The *only* effect upon your survivability and how much effort/time the healer has to put in to keeping you alive is in the ratio between your incoming damage and incoming healing. Max HP doesn't factor into this equation *at all*. A 10 sec TtD and a 5 sec TtD will still require a healer to spend the same amount of time healing the tanks in question; the only difference is that, assuming a 1:2 ratio of incoming damage to incoming healing, the first tank would be able to survive for 9.5 seconds before requiring 19 seconds of healing whereas the second tank would require 4.5 seconds of healing before requiring 9 seconds of healing. Either way, the ratio is *identical*. TtD only matters as a binary metric to determine your healer's reaction time. It has no effect upon the ability of a healer to heal you efficiently or effectively, nor does it have any effect upon the ability of a healer to do things other than heal you: those effects are the *sole* providence of the incoming DPS to incoming HPS ratio (which are controlled by players *exclusively* through mitigation stats on the tank side and healing stats on the healer side).

 

Having a large pool of health means *nothing* for healer time use. Saying it does is a flat out fallacy.

[Arbegla]

I know. I am defining the point of "keeping me alive" not at the bare minimum to maintain a rotation of purely heal spells. The "efficient rotation" I describe already has enough cushion in it so that the healer can dps (which is essential to some healers' rotations anyway), so that if something crazy happens the healer can trade a dps ability for a heal, instead of scrambling for emergency heals.

 

Kitru doesn't have the same assumptions you do. He's basically saying 'the healer will constantly be healing, and never DPSing, and thus if you want extra DPS (or need it to beat enrage timers) then willpower stacking is the way to go. Especially because the base endurance you already have (and can't swap out for willpower) is good enough to last through most encounters.

 

If you're already allotting time for your healers to DPS, then you’re basically already doing what I'm pushing for, and if you are able to do that with willpower gear, then more power to you. From what Kitru has said though is that healer's DPSing isn't the norm, and even thinking of having the healer stop healing to DPS is blasphemy. I'm merely responding to that.

Once I've given the healer some leeway, I then turn to my dps buddies. They like playing too. I don't consider it my job as a tank to ONLY make the healer's job easier. I think the whole group's needs should be met. The QB sends a lot of love to his offensive line, because they are crucial to his survival. But he ignores the receivers and backs at his peril.

 

I'm not a huge sports fan, but from what I understand of your football analogy, is the QB is watching out for his offensive line (the guys prevent the QB from getting smashed up) but not paying attention to his receivers (the guys that catch the ball and run with it to make touch downs) and then the QB wonders why his team as a whole isn't winning. If that's not what you’re getting at, then I'm sorry, I just don't quite understand the analogy.

So, because I don't agree with Kitru that threat isn't a problem (you said he "proved" this, but all he did was state it), or rather I at least believe it can be a problem as I can't guarantee that I will be the best geared member of the group I'm in, I don't think trying to boost group dps through the healer is very efficient. Bullet points why:

 

* it's not clear there's that much more dps to be had. Some of those default dps abilities healers have don't make sense to use.

* I'm skeptical that a healer's added dps would exceed my added dps by a wide margin.

* Even if the dps tradeoff between tank/healer is a wash, if I increase my threat ceiling, then the dps don't have to hold back as much, and in my experience dps players are capable of pulling aggro from the tank. Increasing the tank's dps increases the dpsers' maximum 'safe' output by a multiple of the tank's dps, which is further multiplied by the number of dpsers in the group, whereas increasing the healer's dps output by the same amount does not.

* I'm perfectly capable of taunting, but that has risks. I might be slow with it for some reason, or the healer might panic and do something inefficient, which wastes more resources and dps.

 

I'm going to address the points one by one, but overall know that I generally agree with you. If you are already doing everything correctly (proper rotation, proper positioning, good usage of cool down, and your DPS gives you plenty of 'build up' time to establish threat) and your still having threat issue, then stacking willpower would make sense, especially if your survivability can afford it. That being said, here is a more detailed response to your points.

 

1) Depending on whose math you take, the DPS gain for ~200 willpower is between ~40DPS and ~70DPS. I say depending, because Kitru's math uses a different rotation then mine, and he considered PA and HS in his equations, where I choice to ignore them, as they affect the base damage just as much as the bonus damage.

 

2) Knowing that the DPS gain is between ~40 and ~70DPS, and also knowing that healers gear is general on par with DPS gear, the main difference being that healers don't stack accuracy, and DPS would, it should be save to assume that if the healer is using any attack, constantly throughout a fight, it would deal more then ~40 to ~70DPS.

 

3) This is what I want to question the most. Why is your DPS holding back to begin with? All of the ranged DPS classes have abilities that reduce their threat by up to 50% every 2 minutes. And ranged DPS needs to overcome your threat by 130%. When you account for the base 50% modifier, which means in order for a ranged DPS to pull threat off you, they need to do 180% MORE damage then your doing (50% via stance, 30% threat threshold). Melee DPS, while they may not have the same threat reduction abilities, still have to overcome your threat by 110% in order to pull it off you. Accounting for the base 50% threat modifier, this means that ranged DPS needs to do about 160% MORE damage then the tank in order to pull it off. Now I do understand that some bosses shed threat easily due to mechanics, but that is exactly what taunt is for.

 

I'm not saying threat isn't an issue, but if your DPS aren't pushing as hard as they could to begin with, that might be the root of the issue with hitting enrage timers, which adding more willpower to the tank wouldn't be able to make up.

 

4) This is exactly where having a better cushion of hit points matters. If the healer does something inefficient, having a higher hit point pool allows you to survive a little longer, which could be the difference between a close call, and a raid wipe. While taunt spam could work as a means to overcome highly aggressive DPS, and help maintain threat, it's not the most effective way to hold aggro, and thus you would be better off looking at your rotation, or telling the DPS to hold off a little more. This touches briefly on point 3, and may seem like I’m contradicting myself, but if your DPS gives you 10 seconds to establish threat, then the threat thresholds have time to kick in, and thus your DPS can then push themselves as hard as possible. If they don't give you that full 10 seconds, and just decide to AoE everything in sight, then you have other issues that willpower wouldn't be able to fix.

[Arbegla]

A perfect healer (i.e., robot) would heal the tank up in 4 seconds.

An average healer would heal the tank up in 6 seconds.

A below average healer would heal the tank up in 8 seconds.

A terrible healer would heal the tank up in 10 seconds.

A willpower-stacking tank would survive for 11 seconds.

An endurance-stacking tank would survive for 13 seconds.

A healer who doesn't know how the fight works or is vastly undergeared or is an actual chimpanzee would heal the tank up in 14 seconds.

 

Kitru: There's no difference between the willpower-stacking tank and the endurance stacking tank in survivability, because the only healer that would have a significant problem keeping him up probably shouldn't even be there, and in any event would let either tank die.

 

Arb: 13 > 10, so the endurance tank is more survivable. There's some healer out there who might need 12 seconds to keep the tank up, like a terrible healer who gets disabled for 2 seconds.

 

I feel you're slightly incorrect in my point of view. My thought process isn't that 13 > 10, but that 13 > 6 (average healer) and thus your healer has 7 additional seconds to do other things, like DPSing. Any time that you have beyond what your healer needs can be used by your healer to do other things, until they are needed to heal you again. Yes, the ratio is still the same (6 out of every 13 seconds are spent healing) but this gives them more time to react to mess ups (via raid mechanics, which may be no fault of the healers skill) or just time to DPS (and thus kill the boss faster)

 

Kitru's view point is that there is no noticeable difference between 12 and 13, and thus 12 is good enough. He's also saying that even though the average healer still has 6 seconds of empty space, that the healer should still be focusing on the tank (via HoTs, or buffs, etc) and not worrying about DPS. The healers’ attention should be on the tank 100% of the time, regardless of if it is actually needed or not.

Edited January 28, 2012 by Arbegla

[Dracyula]

The *only* effect upon your survivability and how much effort/time the healer has to put in to keeping you alive is in the ratio between your incoming damage and incoming healing. Max HP doesn't factor into this equation *at all*. A 10 sec TtD and a 5 sec TtD will still require a healer to spend the same amount of time healing the tanks in question; the only difference is that, assuming a 1:2 ratio of incoming damage to incoming healing, the first tank would be able to survive for 9.5 seconds before requiring 19 seconds of healing whereas the second tank would require 4.5 seconds of healing before requiring 9 seconds of healing. Either way, the ratio is *identical*. TtD only matters as a binary metric to determine your healer's reaction time. It has no effect upon the ability of a healer to heal you efficiently or effectively, nor does it have any effect upon the ability of a healer to do things other than heal you: those effects are the *sole* providence of the incoming DPS to incoming HPS ratio (which are controlled by players *exclusively* through mitigation stats on the tank side and healing stats on the healer side).

 

Having a large pool of health means *nothing* for healer time use. Saying it does is a flat out fallacy.

 

I have also tried many times to point this out. Keep in mind though that adding TtD does give the healer extra time to DPS, but it is only applied once.

 

In your scenario the difference between a 10 second TtD and 5 Second TtD will result in an extra 5 seconds for the healer to DPS throughout the entire fight. This would happen if the healer used the extra 5 seconds to DPS and then keep the tank with more HP at 50% for the rest of the fight.

 

The fact that the extra time can only be applied once is the major flaw in his argument for healer DPS added by extra tank HP.

 

To compare them you would have to use the extra DPS from WIL for the entire fight, while only applying the extra DPS from the healer for the extra TtD once.

 

So, in your scenario, the healer would have to do more DPS in 5 seconds than the tank would add throughout the entire fight (by adding WIL).

 

The problem with 200 END vs 200 WIL is that the extra HP only ads about 1 second to the TtD, therefore the healer would have to do more damage in 1 second than the damage that WIL adds for the tank through the entire fight.

 

The fact that he said that this is the main point he is trying to make degrades his argument significantly.

 

D

[Arbegla]

I have also tried many times to point this out. Keep in mind though that adding TtD does give the healer extra time to DPS, but it is only applied once.

 

In your scenario the difference between a 10 second TtD and 5 Second TtD will result in an extra 5 seconds for the healer to DPS throughout the entire fight. This would happen if the healer used the extra 5 seconds to DPS and then keep the tank with more HP at 50% for the rest of the fight.

 

The fact that the extra time can only be applied once is the major flaw in his argument for healer DPS added by extra tank HP.

 

To compare them you would have to use the extra DPS from WIL for the entire fight, while only applying the extra DPS from the healer for the extra TtD once.

 

So, in your scenario, the healer would have to do more DPS in 5 seconds than the tank would add throughout the entire fight (by adding WIL).

 

The problem with 200 END vs 200 WIL is that the extra HP only ads about 1 second to the TtD, therefore the healer would have to do more damage in 1 second than the damage that WIL adds for the tank through the entire fight.

 

The fact that he said that this is the main point he is trying to make degrades his argument significantly.

 

D

 

I don't understand why the time would only apply once, as ANY time the tank is put to 100%, the healer gets that extra second to reapply it.

 

Saying it's only applied once is like saying that even though you tuned up your engine, and redid your oil, you would still get the exactly same mileage as before, and even if you refill your gas tank, you would actually lose mileage.

 

Whenever your tank is put to 100%, be it via self healing, or over healing from the healer (i/e the healer starts healing you up at 79% and their heal throws you up to 88%, then you heal with TK Throw and now your at 100%, your healer still has the same amount of time as before to wait to heal you again)

 

I really don't understand how you can possibly say that the extended time frame only applies once, when the TtD 'timer' is reset every single time that tank is at 100%.

 

Plotting it out, assuming that each heal would add 5 seconds, each hit would knock off 2 seconds, and the healer heal lands at between 4 and 7 seconds to as to not over heal the tank. You can see how wrong you would be:

 

Time until death	10	12
1st hit	8	10
2nd hit	6	8
3rd hit	4	6
1st heal on 1st tank	9	6
4th hit	7	4
1st heal on 2nd tank	7	9
5th hit	5	7
2nd heal	10	12
6th hit	8	10
7th hit	6	8
8th hit	4	6
3rd heal on 1st tank	9	6
9th hit	7	4
3rd heal on 2nd tank	7	9
10th hit	5	7
4th heal	10	12
11th hit	8	10
12th hit	6	8
13th hit	4	6
5th heal on 1st tank	9	6
14th hit	7	4
5th heal on 2nd tank	7	9
15th hit	5	7
6th heal	10	12

 

As you can see, if your healer is healing greater then the incoming damage, then the tank with the higher hit points needs less healing throughout the entire fight, as your constantly refreshing the time frames, and allowing the healer to do other things during the other time frames.

Edited January 28, 2012 by Arbegla

[ckoneful]

Why is there even a debate going on about this? The gear you'll actually be wearing won't let you change the armoring mod out, so it's not Willpower vs Endurance it's Willpower and a DPS stat vs Endurance and tank stats. Edited January 28, 2012 by ckoneful

[Kitru]

The gear you'll actually be wearing won't let you change the armoring mod out, so it's not Willpower vs Endurance it's Willpower and a DPS stat vs Endurance and tank stats.

 

Except that, if you actually read the debate or were well informed about the mod system, you'd realize that there is actually more stat tweaking available between Endurance and Willpower that just the Armoring slot: the Mod slot offers several options that allow you to comparatively stack Endurance, Willpower, and a relevant tank stat in different amounts. Also, since the devs have stated that within the next few patches (hopefully 1.2), they are going to make the Armoring mods open on end game gear, it becomes completely relevant.

[Arbegla]

Why is there even a debate going on about this? The gear you'll actually be wearing won't let you change the armoring mod out, so it's not Willpower vs Endurance it's Willpower and a DPS stat vs Endurance and tank stats.

 

Its been proven time and time again, that there is roughly ~200 points worth of endurance or willpower that you can swap out without having any negative effect on your defensive stats at all.

[Dracyula]

 

Time until death	10	12
1st hit	8	10
2nd hit	6	8
3rd hit	4	6
1st heal on 1st tank	9	6
4th hit	7	4
1st heal on 2nd tank	7	9
5th hit	5	7
2nd heal	10	12
6th hit	8	10
7th hit	6	8
8th hit	4	6
3rd heal on 1st tank	9	6
9th hit	7	4
3rd heal on 2nd tank	7	9
10th hit	5	7
4th heal	10	12
11th hit	8	10
12th hit	6	8
13th hit	4	6
5th heal on 1st tank	9	6
14th hit	7	4
5th heal on 2nd tank	7	9
15th hit	5	7
6th heal	10	12

 

As you can see, if your healer is healing greater then the incoming damage, then the tank with the higher hit points needs less healing throughout the entire fight, as your constantly refreshing the time frames, and allowing the healer to do other things during the other time frames.

 

No, this proves my point. The only time the healer has extra time is when he/she waits for the first heal.

 

Look at the time between each heal for the first and second tank. Weather you are healing tank 1 or tank 2, the time between each heal is 5 hits, thus the healers have the same amount of time to "do other things" (5 hits) when they aren't healing.

 

D

[Arbegla]

No, this proves my point. The only time the healer has extra time is when he/she waits for the first heal.

 

Look at the time between each heal for the first and second tank. Weather you are healing tank 1 or tank 2, the time between each heal is 5 hits, thus the healers have the same amount of time to "do other things" (5 hits) when they aren't healing.

 

D

 

Tank 1 needs a heal every 3 hits to keep them from dying, and restoring them to full health. Tank 2 needs a heal every 4 hits, and then a heal every in between to restore them to full health.

 

Tank 2 needs less healing, and thus gets more time in between each heal

[ckoneful]

Except that, if you actually read the debate or were well informed about the mod system, you'd realize that there is actually more stat tweaking available between Endurance and Willpower that just the Armoring slot: the Mod slot offers several options that allow you to comparatively stack Endurance, Willpower, and a relevant tank stat in different amounts. Also, since the devs have stated that within the next few patches (hopefully 1.2), they are going to make the Armoring mods open on end game gear, it becomes completely relevant.

 

Its been proven time and time again, that there is roughly ~200 points worth of endurance or willpower that you can swap out without having any negative effect on your defensive stats at all.

 

I personally haven't seen any mods that have tank stats where I can sacrifice Endurance for Willpower, where are these from? I do the dailies, I do HM EV, and I've picked up some Champion gear to rip mods out of and I've never seen tank mods that have more Willpower, but less Endurance, and equal tank stats.

 

I'm sitting at near 21k HP unbuffed atm so I'd definitely be interested in possibly adding a bit of DPS at this point.

Edited January 28, 2012 by ckoneful

[Kitru]

I personally haven't seen any mods that have tank stats where I can sacrifice Endurance for Willpower, where are these from? I do the dailies, I do HM EV, and I've picked up some Champion gear to rip mods out of and I've never seen tank mods that have more Willpower, but less Endurance, and equal tank stats.

 

Resolve v. Force Wielder armoring is the most commonly brought up since it's the most direct since it's directly Willpower v. Endurance. Less known is the Robust/Reinforced Mods (for the Mod slot) and their variants: the standard variant has more Willpower, less Endurance, and more tank stat, the A variant has slightly more End, way more Willpower, and way less tank stat, and the B variant has way more End, slightly less WP, and way less tank stat. Because of the prioritization, the standard is best, the B is second, and the A is worst. An Endurance stacking prioritization would place the B above the standard.

[Dracyula]

Tank 1 needs a heal every 3 hits to keep them from dying, and restoring them to full health. Tank 2 needs a heal every 4 hits, and then a heal every in between to restore them to full health.

 

Tank 2 needs less healing, and thus gets more time in between each heal

 

...I'm sorry but no. Tank one needs the first heal after 3 hits and tank 2 needs the first heal after 4 hits.

 

After that they both get a heal every 5 hits. Look at your example again please.

 

EDIT: I looked again, they both get the "even" heal at the same time (the 2nd 4th 6th etc..) The odd heal is the one I was looking at, so in other words, they both need 2 heals every 5 seconds.

This still provides the same amount of downtime for the healers.

 

D

Edited January 28, 2012 by Dracyula

[ckoneful]

Resolve v. Force Wielder armoring is the most commonly brought up since it's the most direct since it's directly Willpower v. Endurance. Less known is the Robust/Reinforced Mods (for the Mod slot) and their variants: the standard variant has more Willpower, less Endurance, and more tank stat, the A variant has slightly more End, way more Willpower, and way less tank stat, and the B variant has way more End, slightly less WP, and way less tank stat. Because of the prioritization, the standard is best, the B is second, and the A is worst. An Endurance stacking prioritization would place the B above the standard.

 

I noticed the Resolve vs Force Wielder but for right now I've only got 1 piece I can even swap the armoring out til the patch heh. I've constantly been running into Robust for mod slots though, I don't think I've seen the defense one outside the daily(I'd love to get my hands on the Defense one at 56/58 mod level).

 

Currently my 56 mods are all 45 end/34 will/27 absorption outside the columi gloves. and the 58 I have is the same stats +2. Do the defense ones or the Willpower heavy ones actually drop? I've only seen the Absorption one as I said.

[Arbegla]

...I'm sorry but no. Tank one needs the first heal after 3 hits and tank 2 needs the first heal after 4 hits.

 

After that they both get a heal every 5 hits. Look at your example again please.

 

EDIT: I looked again, they both get the "even" heal at the same time (the 2nd 4th 6th etc..) The odd heal is the one I was looking at, so in other words, they both need 2 heals every 5 seconds.

This still provides the same amount of downtime for the healers.

 

D

 

Yes, but if you notice after 5 hit(i/e both tanks are back to full) then tank 2 doesn't need his first heal until after 4 hits, and only needs the second heal to top him back off (at 100%) thus allowing the healer to have more time between the first and 4th hits to do other things.

 

That is my point. Once you get back to full, the time between your healers (i/e, the first one) is reset, thus giving your healer more time to do other things in between.

 

Because of the way the pattern worked, both tanks will get their 2nd heal after 5 hits, but the first tank needed his first heal after 3 hits, not 4.

 

My plotting also limited over healing as much as possible, so that both tanks will be at exactly 100% after 5 hits. If you push it further, and only heal when the tanks are about to die, at which point you heal them up enough to prevent over healing, you have something for akin to this pattern:

 

Time until death	10	12
1st hit	8	10
2nd hit	6	8
3rd hit	4	6
4th hit	2	4
1st heal on 1st tank	7	4
5th hit	5	2
1st heal on 2nd tank	5	7
6th hit	3	5
7th hit	1	3
2nd heal on 1st tank	6	3
8th hit	4	1
2nd heal on 2nd tank	4	6
9th hit	2	4
3rd heal on 1st tank	7	4
10th hit	5	2
3rd heal on 2nd tank	5	7
11th hit	3	5
12th hit	1	3
4th heal on 1st tank	6	3
13th hit	4	1
4th heal on 2nd tank	4	6
14th hit	2	4
5th heal on 1st tank	7	4
15th hit	5	2
5th heal on 2nd tank	5	7
6th heal on both tanks	10	12

 

It starts off with the first tank needing a heal after 4 hits, the second tank needing one after 5 hits. Then after the first 5 hits, the tanks begin rotating needing a heal every 2 to 3 hits to stay alive. Which might be what your saying, that after the 'initial' hit points are used up, the cycle doesn't repeat. Which would be true, until the tanks are restored to full hit points again, which is shown on the 6th heal.

 

Once both tanks are back to max hit points, you have another gap where the healer can do other things before needing to go back to healing. Now, while I can see you saying 'When will your tanks ever be at 100% again throughout a fight?' its easy enough to assume they will hit 100% a few things, due to crit healing, or even self healing (neither of which my plotting takes into consideration)

 

Either way, there is a cycle that you can clearly see that the higher TtD gives the healer a reoccurring increase on reaction time once the tank is restored to full health, by any means, be it over healing from the healer (due to crit heals or such) or by self healing via the tank (due to TK throw, Battle Readiness, or Combat Techinque)

Edited January 28, 2012 by Arbegla

[Dracyula]

Yes, but if you notice after 5 hit(i/e both tanks are back to full) then tank 2 doesn't need his first heal until after 4 hits, and only needs the second heal to top him back off (at 100%) thus allowing the healer to have more time between the first and 4th hits to do other things.

 

That is my point. Once you get back to full, the time between your healers (i/e, the first one) is reset, thus giving your healer more time to do other things in between.

 

Because of the way the pattern worked, both tanks will get their 2nd heal after 5 hits, but the first tank needed his first heal after 3 hits, not 4.

 

My plotting also limited over healing as much as possible, so that both tanks will be at exactly 100% after 5 hits. If you push it further, and only heal when the tanks are about to die, at which point you heal them up enough to prevent over healing, you have something for akin to this pattern:

 

Time until death	10	12
1st hit	8	10
2nd hit	6	8
3rd hit	4	6
4th hit	2	4
1st heal on 1st tank	7	4
5th hit	5	2
1st heal on 2nd tank	5	7
6th hit	3	5
7th hit	1	3
2nd heal on 1st tank	6	3
8th hit	4	1
2nd heal on 2nd tank	4	6
9th hit	2	4
3rd heal on 1st tank	7	4
10th hit	5	2
3rd heal on 2nd tank	5	7
11th hit	3	5
12th hit	1	3
4th heal on 1st tank	6	3
13th hit	4	1
4th heal on 2nd tank	4	6
14th hit	2	4
5th heal on 1st tank	7	4
15th hit	5	2
5th heal on 2nd tank	5	7
6th heal on both tanks	10	12

 

It starts off with the first tank needing a heal after 4 hits, the second tank needing one after 5 hits. Then after the first 5 hits, the tanks begin rotating needing a heal every 2 to 3 hits to stay alive. Which might be what your saying, that after the 'initial' hit points are used up, the cycle doesn't repeat. Which would be true, until the tanks are restored to full hit points again, which is shown on the 6th heal.

 

Once both tanks are back to max hit points, you have another gap where the healer can do other things before needing to go back to healing. Now, while I can see you saying 'When will your tanks ever be at 100% again throughout a fight?' its easy enough to assume they will hit 100% a few things, due to crit healing, or even self healing (neither of which my plotting takes into consideration)

 

Either way, there is a cycle that you can clearly see that the higher TtD gives the healer a reoccurring increase on reaction time once the tank is restored to full health, by any means, be it over healing from the healer (due to crit heals or such) or by self healing via the tank (due to TK throw, Battle Readiness, or Combat Techinque)

 

You are starting to get my point now. Keep in mind that by healing twice in a row without damage, you have effectively ended the fight after 15 hits. So, for that fight it was only applied once.

 

I understand what you are saying, but notice that to make your point you had the heal the tank with more HP from 16.7% to full without him taking any damage (from 2 seconds left to live to 12 seconds). I'm pretty sure this isn't going to happen regularly throughout a boss fight (only when the fight is over).

 

If the boss decides that he needs to go run a few errands during your fight, your thought would hold a little weight.

 

It may also be wise to use a healing amount that doesn't equal roughly half of a tanks life per heal.

 

D

[Arbegla]

You are starting to get my point now. Keep in mind that by healing twice in a row without damage, you have effectively ended the fight after 15 hits. So, for that fight it was only applied once.

 

I understand what you are saying, but notice that to make your point you had the heal the tank with more HP from 16.7% to full without him taking any damage (from 2 seconds left to live to 12 seconds). I'm pretty sure this isn't going to happen regularly throughout a boss fight (only when the fight is over).

 

If the boss decides that he needs to go run a few errands during your fight, your thought would hold a little weight.

 

It may also be wise to use a healing amount that doesn't equal roughly half of a tanks life per heal.

 

D

 

Eh, using the parameters i picked, i had to keep things basic like that. And i was limited any over healing (via critical heals, or any self healing) which could put the tank back to 100%.

 

My point is, that once the cycle hits a point where the tank is returned to 100%, you can then take advantage of the additional time to heal them all over again. Any time the tank is at 100% (which would be not just at the start of a fight, but any time a crit heal, or self heal pushed them up to 100%) your healer then has the full duration of your TtD to heal you back up.

 

If you then increase your TtD by any amount (via stacking endurance) then your healer can take advantage of that additional time, every time you at restored to 100% hit points (again, via over healing from critical heals, or self healing).

 

I get your point now, that the additional time is 'gone' once you get to the point where your survival is based on incoming heals (as shown by the requirement of being healed every 2 to 3 hits on my plotting) but my point isn't that your life hangs by your healers healing, its that it is extended every time you are restored to 100% health.

[Dracyula]

Eh, using the parameters i picked, i had to keep things basic like that. And i was limited any over healing (via critical heals, or any self healing) which could put the tank back to 100%.

 

My point is, that once the cycle hits a point where the tank is returned to 100%, you can then take advantage of the additional time to heal them all over again. Any time the tank is at 100% (which would be not just at the start of a fight, but any time a crit heal, or self heal pushed them up to 100%) your healer then has the full duration of your TtD to heal you back up.

 

If you then increase your TtD by any amount (via stacking endurance) then your healer can take advantage of that additional time, every time you at restored to 100% hit points (again, via over healing from critical heals, or self healing).

 

I get your point now, that the additional time is 'gone' once you get to the point where your survival is based on incoming heals (as shown by the requirement of being healed every 2 to 3 hits on my plotting) but my point isn't that your life hangs by your healers healing, its that it is extended every time you are restored to 100% health.

 

Actually I was mistaken. With your most recent example the healer gained no extra time, both tanks were healed 6 times.

 

The reason that this isn't easy to see is because tank 2 had two heals at the end of your sequence. So, after the 15th hit, the healer spent his extra time getting the 2nd tank to full. At this point, we are back at the beginning with the healer having had zero extra time.

 

D

[Arbegla]

Actually I was mistaken. With your most recent example the healer gained no extra time, both tanks were healed 6 times.

 

The reason that this isn't easy to see is because tank 2 had two heals at the end of your sequence. So, after the 15th hit, the healer spent his extra time getting the 2nd tank to full. At this point, we are back at the beginning with the healer having had zero extra time.

 

D

 

Lets just assume the 6th heal is due to critical healing, or self healing. Which is exactly what i did. that extra healing may not actually come from the healer (or at least not in a way that is expected, like a critical heal coming up) Thus the tank is put to 100% hit points, without any extra effort from the healer (via critical healing, or self healing) and then the cycle starts back up again.

 

I only put in the 6th heal to better show how the cycle works. I should've better explained that, but i thought it was fairly obvious. Once either tank is put back to 100% health, via any amount of healing (be it critical heals, self healing, or just a 'top off' heal) then the healer can benefit from the extended TtD each cycle. Putting in the other information onto the exact same plotting i showed last time, this is what you have:

Time until death               10    12    
1st hit                               8    10    
2nd hit                              6    8    
3rd hit                              4    6    
4th hit                               2    4    
1st heal on 1st tank            7    4    1st heal on 1st tank, after 4 hits
5th hit                                5    2    
1st heal on 2nd tank           5    7    1st heal on 2nd tank after 5 hits
6th hit                                3    5    
7th hit                                1    3    
2nd heal on 1st tank           6    3    2nd heal on 1st tank after 3 more hits
8th hit                                4    1    
2nd heal on 2nd tank          4    6    2nd heal on 2nd tank after 3 more hits
9th hit                                2    4    
3rd heal on 1st tank            7    4    3rd heal on 1st tank after 2 more hits
10th hit                              5    2    
3rd heal on 2nd tank          5    7    3rd heal on 2nd tank after 2 more hits
11th hit                              3    5    
12th hit                              1    3    
4th heal on 1st tank            6    3    4th heal on 1st tank after 3 more hits
13th hit                               4    1    
4th heal on 2nd tank           4    6    4th heal on 2nd tank after 3 more hits
14th hit                               2    4    
5th heal on 1st tank             7    4    5th heal on 1st tank after 2 more hits
15th hit                               5    2    
5th heal on 2nd tank            5    7    5th heal on 2nd tank after 2 more hits
6th heal on both tanks        10    12   
^ (via crit healing, or self healing)  
Cycle repeats every time the tanks are put to max HP            

Edited January 28, 2012 by Arbegla

[Dracyula]

Lets just assume the 6th heal is due to critical healing, or self healing. Which is exactly what i did. that extra healing may not actually come from the healer (or at least not in a way that is expected, like a critical heal coming up) Thus the tank is put to 100% hit points, without any extra effort from the healer (via critical healing, or self healing) and then the cycle starts back up again.

 

I only put in the 6th heal to better show how the cycle works. I should've better explained that, but i thought it was fairly obvious. Once either tank is put back to 100% health, via any amount of healing (be it critical heals, self healing, or just a 'top off' heal) then the healer can benefit from the extended TtD each cycle. Putting in the other information onto the exact same plotting i showed last time, this is what you have:

Time until death               10    12    
1st hit                               8    10    
2nd hit                              6    8    
3rd hit                              4    6    
4th hit                               2    4    
1st heal on 1st tank            7    4    1st heal on 1st tank, after 4 hits
5th hit                                5    2    
1st heal on 2nd tank           5    7    1st heal on 2nd tank after 5 hits
6th hit                                3    5    
7th hit                                1    3    
2nd heal on 1st tank           6    3    2nd heal on 1st tank after 3 more hits
8th hit                                4    1    
2nd heal on 2nd tank          4    6    2nd heal on 2nd tank after 3 more hits
9th hit                                2    4    
3rd heal on 1st tank            7    4    3rd heal on 1st tank after 2 more hits
10th hit                              5    2    
3rd heal on 2nd tank          5    7    3rd heal on 2nd tank after 2 more hits
11th hit                              3    5    
12th hit                              1    3    
4th heal on 1st tank            6    3    4th heal on 1st tank after 3 more hits
13th hit                               4    1    
4th heal on 2nd tank           4    6    4th heal on 2nd tank after 3 more hits
14th hit                               2    4    
5th heal on 1st tank             7    4    5th heal on 1st tank after 2 more hits
15th hit                               5    2    
5th heal on 2nd tank            5    7    5th heal on 2nd tank after 2 more hits
6th heal on both tanks        10    12   
^ (via crit healing, or self healing)  
Cycle repeats every time the tanks are put to max HP            

 

It makes no difference how the sixth heal was applied. whether the healers used 5 heals, or 6 heals is irrelevant. In both instances the healers spent the exact same amount of time healing (hence, no extra time).

 

Edit: To help with understanding; Healer 1 has free time (equal to healer 2's free time at the beginning of the fight) after his heal following hit 14.

 

D

Edited January 29, 2012 by Dracyula

[Arbegla]

It makes no difference how the sixth heal was applied. whether the healers used 5 heals, or 6 heals is irrelevant. In both instances the healers spent the exact same amount of time healing (hence, no extra time).

 

D

 

Time until death               10    12    
1st hit                               8    10    
2nd hit                              6    8    
3rd hit                              4    6    
4th hit                               2    4    
1st heal on 1st tank            7    4    1st heal on 1st tank, after 4 hits
5th hit                                5    2    
1st heal on 2nd tank           5    7    1st heal on 2nd tank after 5 hits

 

There is your extra time. Between the 4th hit, and the 5th hit. That is repeated every time the tank is set to 100% hit points.

 

I'm not sure why you're not understanding that. The extra time is between the 4th hit (where the 10 TtD tank would need a heal, and the 12 TtD tank wouldn't) and the 5th hit (where the 10 TtD tank would be DEAD without a heal and the 12 TtD tank would just need a heal)

Edited January 28, 2012 by Arbegla

[Dracyula]

Time until death               10    12    
1st hit                               8    10    
2nd hit                              6    8    
3rd hit                              4    6    
4th hit                               2    4    
1st heal on 1st tank            7    4    1st heal on 1st tank, after 4 hits
5th hit                                5    2    
1st heal on 2nd tank           5    7    1st heal on 2nd tank after 5 hits

 

There is your extra time. Between the 4th hit, and the 5th hit. That is repeated every time the tank is set to 100% hit points.

 

I'm not sure why you're not understanding that. The extra time is between the 4th hit (where the 10 TtD tank would need a heal, and the 12 TtD tank wouldn't) and the 5th hit (where the 10 TtD tank would be DEAD without a heal and the 12 TtD tank would just need a heal)

 

I edited my post too late, please refer to my previous post.