Legacy: Money

[SuperGrunt]

So I really like the idea of the Legacy Bank money tab. Also while I don't see a big deal with allowing it to be a Sub only perk, I do agree with the argument that the money deposited into the tab while you have a Sub does need to not be inside the tab while you don't have a sub anymore. My solution would be a very simple one. You would eliminate the need to track which character deposits what amounts of credits as well with it. When you unlock the Legacy Bank you get an option, do you want all of the credits to go to the first character you login to after you lose your sub, or do you want to distribute the credits evenly among all of your characters on the server. It is a once in game option, but you can also change it on the website. The game then when you login and displays the sub again UI, takes the appropriate action. If you are logged in when you lose your sub, the action is immediate.

[Nightblazer]

How would that work if say a sub has 50 million credits. Max per character on preferred is 300k. So if you have 22 characters which is the server limit, that's only 6.6 mil. What about the other 43.4 mil?

[Mowermanx]

So much misinformation and misconceptions in this thread its hard to believe some of the people in here posting has ever played the game before or have so little understanding of how the current system works it really boggles the mind...

 

 

These are two things that happen when your sub lapses right now.

 

All but 6(2 for f2p) of your chars go poof, you have no access to them until you resub or purchase active character slots.

If you have 1 billion credits on your char, all but 350k go poof and vanish, you have no access to those credits until you resub or you purchase escrows from the market.

Please keep these 2 facts in mind when querying this suggestion.

Edited August 23, 2015 by Mowermanx

[SuperGrunt]

So much misinformation and misconceptions in this thread its hard to believe some of the people in here posting has ever played the game before or have so little understanding of how the current system works it really boggles the mind...

 

 

These are two things that happen when your sub lapses right now.

 

All but 6(2 for f2p) of your chars go poof, you have no access to them until you resub or purchase active character slots.

If you have 1 billion credits on your char, all but 350k go poof and vanish, you have no access to those credits until you resub or you purchase escrows from the market.

Please keep these 2 facts in mind when querying this suggestion.

 

How would that work if say a sub has 50 million credits. Max per character on preferred is 300k. So if you have 22 characters which is the server limit, that's only 6.6 mil. What about the other 43.4 mil?

 

Actually the characters and money does not go "POOF!" I know I have played a Preferred before for quite a long bit of time as well. You can see your characters every time that you login. Also the money that your character has in escrow is displayed on the currency tab of your inventory if I recall correctly.

 

Trust me guys I most assuredly kept that in mind when I made my suggestion. Like I said you divide the money evenly amongst all the characters that the player has on that server, or it all goes to the first character that they log into after they loose their sub, according to the choice that the player makes upon their account. Thus any over the cap of 350k goes into escrow, and then they would still have access to it through the same escrow transfer mechanism that exists today. That seriously should have been obvious due to me not mentioning that you would have to do something special with large sums of money, or limiting the amount of money that the player could have in their Legacy Money tab. Also the 350k credit limit would count the money that the player already has on his characters, which if he was to have 50m credits in the Legacy Bank I would guess that they would also have a relatively decent sum on each character, as no one in this thread suggested that the Legacy Money tab should replace having money in the character's inventory.

[Heromofo]

Wouldn't the best solution to this be:

 

Legacy Money

 

If you are subscribed you will notice if you hover over your credits that you can see what each character has on the server. By simply dragging a character up and down the list you set them as next priority money user. So when you run out of credits it will simply use it from your next in priority.

 

This feature is only available for subscribers and will remain normal should you choose not to subscribe further.

This will also allow you to buy items using multiple Characters credits if you choose and will notify you before doing so.

 

 

I am serious wouldn't this be the answer???.

[azudelphi]

Wouldn't the best solution to this be:

 

Legacy Money

 

If you are subscribed you will notice if you hover over your credits that you can see what each character has on the server. By simply dragging a character up and down the list you set them as next priority money user. So when you run out of credits it will simply use it from your next in priority.

 

This feature is only available for subscribers and will remain normal should you choose not to subscribe further.

This will also allow you to buy items using multiple Characters credits if you choose and will notify you before doing so.

 

 

I am serious wouldn't this be the answer???.

I agree. Legacy money management tools for subscribers seem a simpler solution than a legacy bank.

[SuperGrunt]

I agree. Legacy money management tools for subscribers seem a simpler solution than a legacy bank.

 

Actually no, it's not at all a simpler solution. Sure it's simpler for the user, but it would be much more complicated for BioWare to implement it.

 

You have to figure that the Legacy Storage system is based off of the Guild Bank system, with the current exceptions being that it has no money option, and that it is only for your characters on that one server. So what we are proposing by adding the Legacy Money option through that would just be enabling a part of the Guild Bank System that is disabled for the Legacy Storage system. Then it could be used much the same way the Guild version is, were you draw money out as needed, and put money in when you want to transfer money around.

 

The alternative that you and the guy over you are suggesting is an entirely new system that would have to designed and integrated from the ground up. Then when it is tested some bugs would be missed, and we would end up with some bugs on the live servers. Some money would get duped, and other money would just disappear. No thanks I would rather BioWare tweak a system that they have already proven that they can do, than to string a bunch of things together that don't have bugs now, and end up making a few new ones then. I'm not saying that BioWare is bad at programming, I'm saying that all programmers and testers miss bugs. I know from experience as a programmer myself.

[Mowermanx]

Actually the characters and money does not go "POOF!" I know I have played a Preferred before for quite a long bit of time as well. You can see your characters every time that you login. Also the money that your character has in escrow is displayed on the currency tab of your inventory if I recall correctly.

.

I wasnt being literal.

I know you don't lose it per se, but if you've been following the thread you would of seen others querying about what would happen to the credits in a legacy bank if your sub lapsed.

I just explained to those that is what happens now in the game, and it is correct, one day you have 50 million, then next day you log in you have 350k, the rest does in fact go poof, its not accessible to you until you subscribe or buy escrows. If you don't do either of those things, those credits are lost to you.

[SuperGrunt]

I wasnt being literal.

I know you don't lose it per se, but if you've been following the thread you would of seen others querying about what would happen to the credits in a legacy bank if your sub lapsed.

I just explained to those that is what happens now in the game, and it is correct, one day you have 50 million, then next day you log in you have 350k, the rest does in fact go poof, its not accessible to you until you subscribe or buy escrows. If you don't do either of those things, those credits are lost to you.

 

I would say it's more like they are put into a savings account, that you either access by getting a sub, or using Escrow Transfers. When I was Preferred, I used Escrow Transfers to get access to some of my Credits to purchase an Account Artifact Equipment Authorization unlock. Saying it goes POOF! gives credibility to the idiots who fear that BioWare takes it and never gives it back. I have had to correct many people on how it actually works.

[SteveTheCynic]

Saying it goes POOF! gives credibility to the idiots who fear that BioWare takes it and never gives it back. I have had to correct many people on how it actually works.

It could be worse. On one of the huge number of threads about legacy banks, one of the more rabidly anti-non-sub posters suggested something far more punitive. If you are a sub, and you have your 50 million in the legacy bank, then this [fine upstanding generous person] wanted that if you let your sub lapse, you absolutely lose all 50 million. Gone, destroyed, poof! His reasoning? Well, if you wanted to take a break and come back to still have the credits, you should have moved the credits out onto your actual character.

 

He didn't bother answering the question of what if someone subscribes entirely through time cards or buying online time directly through the SWTOR website (but not on an autobilling option), and then one week before the current time card expires, this person is hit by a bus, and is in a coma for two weeks? (When this person gets out of hospital, his last time card will have expired and he will be no longer a sub, and that's the end of his 50 million credits. Quite literally adding insult ("You're a filthy freeloader!") to injury. Don't do this to people - it costs you players.)

[Ghenghis-Khan]

capping credits is criminal. I find it to be extortion at its greatest.

legacy money idea is brilliant. But my wife would spend all my credits on her toon under my sub. Just like in real life.

She luvs shopping and I wouldn't have any left for my corellian ale habbit.

[Trinid]

So character a puts 500k in legacy bank.

Character b puts 350k in legacy bank.

Character c puts 1m in legacy bank.

Character d puts 600k in legacy bank.

Character e puts 400k in legacy bank.

 

Account goes preferred, no longer is allowed to transfer funds. Who gets the 2,850,000 credits?

The game cant even remember who bought what from you for how much off the gtn after a server reset, do you really think it will remember who put how much in?

 

Gonna -1 this suggestion, quoted post perfectly explains the issue with it.

[SteveTheCynic]

Gonna -1 this suggestion, quoted post perfectly explains the issue with it.

You should read all the variations that have been proposed on this thread. The post you quoted doesn't explain the issue with it at all. (or rather, the issue it explains isn't an issue, read on)

 

Modesty prevents me from admitting it was my idea, but one way to deal with the cited problem is to leave the money in the legacy bank, and let it act as a sort of reserve pool to supplement the individual characters' escrow balances. If the ex-sub buys an escrow unlock, and doesn't have enough in that character's escrow balance, the system makes up for it by drawing down from the legacy balance. And, of course, to prevent this from being a way to cheese the no-transfers rule(1), no deposits to the legacy bank if you aren't a sub.

 

(1) The rule that non-subs cannot transfer money between characters. There are already ways to cheese this rule.

[Jboath]

Gonna -1 this suggestion, quoted post perfectly explains the issue with it.

 

And with the inflation over 3 years a legacy wallet for preferred should be 2.1mil. (6 x 350k) There's absolutely no reason anyone who has put money into the game should be capped at a measly 350k at this point. You can't even buy escrow unlocks from gtns anymore at that price.

 

f2p would still be only 400k since you can only have 2 chars.

[therandyman]

It could be worse. On one of the huge number of threads about legacy banks, one of the more rabidly anti-non-sub posters suggested something far more punitive. If you are a sub, and you have your 50 million in the legacy bank, then this [fine upstanding generous person] wanted that if you let your sub lapse, you absolutely lose all 50 million. Gone, destroyed, poof! His reasoning? Well, if you wanted to take a break and come back to still have the credits, you should have moved the credits out onto your actual character.

 

He didn't bother answering the question of what if someone subscribes entirely through time cards or buying online time directly through the SWTOR website (but not on an autobilling option), and then one week before the current time card expires, this person is hit by a bus, and is in a coma for two weeks? (When this person gets out of hospital, his last time card will have expired and he will be no longer a sub, and that's the end of his 50 million credits. Quite literally adding insult ("You're a filthy freeloader!") to injury. Don't do this to people - it costs you players.)

 

If the credits stay in the bank until the preferred account resubs, they haven't gone POOF! As also mentioned in this thread (and others), escrow unlocks could be used to access those credits as well. And if deposit access is sub-only, this would not be a way to circumvent the "no credits transfer" limit on preferred.

 

To summarize:

 

1. No credits go POOF!; they are escrowed like credits in a character's personal bank are escrowed when a sub drops to preferred. Per-character credit balances remain escrowed per-character; legacy bank credits remain escrowed per-legacy.

2. Credits in the legacy bank are accessible via escrow unlocks, same as credits in a character's personal bank.

3. Only subs can deposit in the legacy bank, maintaining the no-credit-transfer restriction on preferred.

 

What is objectionable about those three points?

[SteveTheCynic]

If the credits stay in the bank until the preferred account resubs, they haven't gone POOF! As also mentioned in this thread (and others), escrow unlocks could be used to access those credits as well. And if deposit access is sub-only, this would not be a way to circumvent the "no credits transfer" limit on preferred.

 

To summarize:

 

1. No credits go POOF!; they are escrowed like credits in a character's personal bank are escrowed when a sub drops to preferred. Per-character credit balances remain escrowed per-character; legacy bank credits remain escrowed per-legacy.

2. Credits in the legacy bank are accessible via escrow unlocks, same as credits in a character's personal bank.

3. Only subs can deposit in the legacy bank, maintaining the no-credit-transfer restriction on preferred.

 

What is objectionable about those three points?

Nothing whatsoever. I was just commenting on someone (on another legacy bank suggestion thread - there are dozens of them) who thought that locking out the money (escrow-style) didn't go far enough toward punishing the now ex-sub for continuing to play without paying. I think it"s a stupid attitude, but in his weird world, the money would go POOF, and customer-care consequences be damned!

 

The three points you mention there are how I think it should work, if it were to be implemented. I question whether it is necessary, and whether it is a good use of their limited development resources, but it would be a useful feature. I'm not sure I'd want it linked to being at my legacy storage kiosk, but that's a relatively minor thing overall.

[SteveTheCynic]

And with the inflation over 3 years a legacy wallet for preferred should be 2.1mil. (6 x 350k) There's absolutely no reason anyone who has put money into the game should be capped at a measly 350k at this point. You can't even buy escrow unlocks from gtns anymore at that price.

 

f2p would still be only 400k since you can only have 2 chars.

No, there is no legacy wallet (wrong word - it is a bank, not a wallet, meaning that even subs must make explicit withdrawals before spending the money) in the way you are implying for f2p/preferred. These accounts may not make deposits, and if an account is preferred because its sub lapsed / was cancelled, then the whole balance is held in escrow as a reserve pool for escrow unlocks. (Take from per-character escrow first, then from legacy bank escrow. Excess money earned by a non-sub character goes into per-character escrow.)

 

Well, that's how I think it should work, if they were to build it.

[Dalagante]

No, there is no legacy wallet (wrong word - it is a bank, not a wallet, meaning that even subs must make explicit withdrawals before spending the money) in the way you are implying for f2p/preferred. These accounts may not make deposits, and if an account is preferred because its sub lapsed / was cancelled, then the whole balance is held in escrow as a reserve pool for escrow unlocks. (Take from per-character escrow first, then from legacy bank escrow. Excess money earned by a non-sub character goes into per-character escrow.)

 

Well, that's how I think it should work, if they were to build it.

There are quite a few problems with your idea.\

 

1. It's easy to abuse. You drop all your money into the legacy bank before your sub runs out that way all your characters have the ability to pull money with escrow. This isn't something you can do now when your subs run out your money is stuck where it currently is.

 

2. You assume the escrow system would even allow you to do this. You are too busy patting yourself on the back saying how great the idea is. It's more likely escrow pulls from a database that is character specific and not something legacy specific. While playing the game you would realize that things that are in your character inventory behave differently than things in your cargo hold and legacy bank. This would imply there is a difference in how the game handles them. It's easy to say it is simple system on paper it is. That doesn't mean it's even close to simple when you talking about putting it into code especially a game this big.

 

3. You also know your idea isn't that great because you avoid points you can't counter. You also keep saying how great the idea is. Anyone with debate experience would realize both of these are a sign of the weakness of the idea not it's strength. Really good ideas rarely make anyone really happy because they work for all. Good idea that is well thought will have known flaws and since it is well thought out the person will admit them. A person who thinks their idea doesn't have flaws usually didn't think the idea out fully.

 

4. Your idea isn't QoL idea it's an idea to give benefit to preferred status accounts beyond quality of life. While giving subs only a QoL benefit. I am sorry but people subscribing to the game should get more of the benefit.

[therandyman]

Nothing whatsoever. I was just commenting on someone (on another legacy bank suggestion thread - there are dozens of them) who thought that locking out the money (escrow-style) didn't go far enough toward punishing the now ex-sub for continuing to play without paying. I think it"s a stupid attitude, but in his weird world, the money would go POOF, and customer-care consequences be damned!

 

The three points you mention there are how I think it should work, if it were to be implemented. I question whether it is necessary, and whether it is a good use of their limited development resources, but it would be a useful feature. I'm not sure I'd want it linked to being at my legacy storage kiosk, but that's a relatively minor thing overall.

 

Not sure how difficult it would or wouldn't be to code. I'm also not sure how their Dev team is structured vis-a-vis new features vs. bughunting (a different skillset/temperament, in my 17 yrs of IT experience), so others' objections to new features when there are bugs to squash don't necessarily stand.

 

It is a regularly requested QoL improvement, and I'd be fine with it being prioritized along with other QoL improvements, however they prioritize things within their Dev process (also unknown to me).

[therandyman]

There are quite a few problems with your idea.\

 

1. It's easy to abuse. You drop all your money into the legacy bank before your sub runs out that way all your characters have the ability to pull money with escrow. This isn't something you can do now when your subs run out your money is stuck where it currently is.

 

Not sure how this is abusive; it sounds like good planning to me. I'd be surprised if credit farmers subbed just to be able to do this.

 

2. You assume the escrow system would even allow you to do this. You are too busy patting yourself on the back saying how great the idea is. It's more likely escrow pulls from a database that is character specific and not something legacy specific. While playing the game you would realize that things that are in your character inventory behave differently than things in your cargo hold and legacy bank. This would imply there is a difference in how the game handles them. It's easy to say it is simple system on paper it is. That doesn't mean it's even close to simple when you talking about putting it into code especially a game this big.

 

Maybe it can, maybe it can't. None of us in this thread know the code well enough to say. It's a question of how much work it would take to implement, and whether the Dev team chooses to prioritize that amount of work to this or to one or more other new features.

[Dalagante]

Not sure how this is abusive; it sounds like good planning to me. I'd be surprised if credit farmers subbed just to be able to do this.

Wow. This has nothing to do with credit farmers. One I am sure they sub or they wouldn't be able to send people millions. Two there is no cost benefit to having more than one character per account when farming credits so again this has nothing to do with credit farmers. Three they would just use a guild bank for more than one account. I think it's funny how clueless people are about how things actually work and the effects things would have. UO has survived 18 years and they allowed account, gold and item selling.

 

It is something not currently allowed in the game and most likely wouldn't be allowed. It is allowing you to have all your money accessible to all your characters while not subbed which is something not allowed currently in the game. This would decrease the need for a player to keep a sub which would decrease incentive to keep money coming into the game.

[Theeko]

Prob just make legacy currency Sub based, and when you unsub it goes back to normal

[SteveTheCynic]

There are quite a few problems with your idea.\

 

1. It's easy to abuse. You drop all your money into the legacy bank before your sub runs out that way all your characters have the ability to pull money with escrow. This isn't something you can do now when your subs run out your money is stuck where it currently is.

I agree with the other comment that this is just good planning, not abuse. Don't forget that if one character draws down 600K credits from the hypothetical ex-sub legacy bank with an unlock, the others cannot draw down that 600K. And it is hardly abuse in another way - yes, a stubbornly preferred player can use it to move money around, but really, why bother. He can already do that using the GTN. (The character who wants the money lists a low-value starter world drop for a bit more than the amount the character wants to receive. The character who wants to send the money buys the item. You lose a bit for the GTN fee, but you move the money. And you don't have to pay real-world money to subscribe for a month to do it. If some other player decides to interfere by buying the item, so much the better, because that's like a free gift. Well, unless it was credit-cap avoidance...)

 

2. You assume the escrow system would even allow you to do this. You are too busy patting yourself on the back saying how great the idea is. It's more likely escrow pulls from a database that is character specific and not something legacy specific. While playing the game you would realize that things that are in your character inventory behave differently than things in your cargo hold and legacy bank. This would imply there is a difference in how the game handles them. It's easy to say it is simple system on paper it is. That doesn't mean it's even close to simple when you talking about putting it into code especially a game this big.

Well, at the moment the escrow system probably can't handle it as such. But fixing that is a SMOP (Small Matter Of Programming). That is, someone has to get his hands dirty in some part or other of the code to enable escrow to pull like that. It's a trade-off. We can improve the game for subs by adding a full-service legacy credit storage area by doing the basic work that has to be done to add this feature even for subs. We can then do additional work on top to avoid customer service issues when someone ends up with substantial sums locked in there as a consequence of dropping to preferred. ("I dropped my sub because I'd got all the unlocks to play the way I wanted, and my shared legacy bank had 100 million credits that's locked in there with no way to get it out! W T F kind of game does that to you? I'm outta here and you, my friend, shouldn't play it because of that!" It's irrational, I know, but this is the Age of the Internet, and this kind of irrationality is common.)

 

So you have to balance the amount of additional work to add the escrow-drawdown feature for ex-subs with the reputation damage it would cause. Perhaps you're right, and it isn't worth doing, but the trade-off is there, ready to be evaluated.

 

Oh, and a condescending attitude like you show here isn't conducive to good debating technique. I would notice those things, would I? Well, yes, in fact, I had noticed that the items in my personal inventory are available when I'm out and about, my cargo hold items are only accessible when I'm at a cargo hold point, and my legacy storage items when I'm at the legacy storage kiosk. Wow, thanks for pointing that out, I'd never have noticed that otherwise.

 

And the UI behaviour of the various boxes (aside from questions of sorting buttons) is the same for all three.

 

3. You also know your idea isn't that great because you avoid points you can't counter. You also keep saying how great the idea is. Anyone with debate experience would realize both of these are a sign of the weakness of the idea not it's strength. Really good ideas rarely make anyone really happy because they work for all. Good idea that is well thought will have known flaws and since it is well thought out the person will admit them. A person who thinks their idea doesn't have flaws usually didn't think the idea out fully.

And given that you don't identify those points I avoid, I'd have to say that you don't want me to address them. Which suggests your argument isn't as strong as you'd like.

 

4. Your idea isn't QoL idea it's an idea to give benefit to preferred status accounts beyond quality of life. While giving subs only a QoL benefit. I am sorry but people subscribing to the game should get more of the benefit.

It's only a limited subset of preferred accounts - those who used to be subscribers and had credits in the legacy storage when their subscription ends. People who never subscribed don't get any benefit from it, and nor do people who ended their subscription with the storage empty. And the benefit only lasts until the storage is empty, and it costs a lot of coins and/or GTN credits to access this benefit... Hey, sounds like one of those trade-off things.

 

Overall, though, I'm not sure there's even a convincing argument for building this feature at all. Wall of crazy, perhaps.

 

To finish, I'd advise you make fewer assumptions about what people do in life. I've spent the last 26 years not generally in IT, but working as a programmer, so even if I don't know their code, I know how to design and build code in a general way.

[Trinid]

UO has survived 18 years and they allowed account, gold and item selling.

 

I apologize in advance for glossing over the points you made just to nit-pick at this, but I feel the need to point out that UO is a LOT cheaper for EA to run, doesn't have anywhere near the playerbase that SWTOR does due to being a niche game, and has an economy with a foundation wildly different from SWTOR's. Apples and oranges.

 

I will agree with others that the current credit cap for F2P/Preferred players is ridiculously low, inflation has run wild in SWTOR so the cap is overly restrictive as it is. I understand that you have you convince people to spend money on the game somehow, but the quickbars and credit cap makes me feel like I have to spend money in order to progress. If I hadn't played SWTOR before the F2P transition, I'd have noped the hell out of here the instant I learned that you have to spend money to have enough quickbars to actually be functional over level 30.

 

 

This is all one big tangent and mostly unrelated to the thread subject, so I'll avoid commenting further on it. Feel free to PM me if you like arguing about P2W mechanics!

Edited August 29, 2015 by Trinid

[DovahkiinTOR]

I totally agree. It would help players a lot if all the characters in the Legacy had the same amount of credits.