How the force works for lightsaber dueling

[DrFaroohk]

Who's the better duelist? A knight, with his unmatched skill with the blade, or the more sorcery types, who might not be as good at dueling, but they seem to have more force energy that they can amp themselves up with? Or is that not how it works?

 

That's how I imagine the ones like Yoda and Sidious can duel effectively. Or Dooku. They're old and frail! The force is what makes Yoda be able to fly around like sonic the hedgehog and make old Dooku physically strong enough to match a young jedi in his prime and do flips in the air.

[Argonloris]

The force would be used to augment abilities already trained by the duelists. While physical strength plays a part of a duelists capabilities, the physical part is often more about stamina. Most duelists use a minimal amount of strength to turn and redirect an opponents blade. In game a knight would usually win against a sorc or sage because they are more experienced with the blade and would keep their movement focused and closer to center, leaving less openings.

[Canareth]

Who's the better duelist? A knight, with his unmatched skill with the blade, or the more sorcery types, who might not be as good at dueling, but they seem to have more force energy that they can amp themselves up with? Or is that not how it works?

 

That's how I imagine the ones like Yoda and Sidious can duel effectively. Or Dooku. They're old and frail! The force is what makes Yoda be able to fly around like sonic the hedgehog and make old Dooku physically strong enough to match a young jedi in his prime and do flips in the air.

 

The Force is prototypical "open" (no spells) magic. A saberist who is strong in the Force is using it just as much as the guy throwing lightning around. Precognition, guidance, strength.

 

Remember, lightsabers are all but impossible to use if you aren't a Force Sensitive. You're drawing on it at all times you have the thing out.

[adormitul]

The Force is prototypical "open" (no spells) magic. A saberist who is strong in the Force is using it just as much as the guy throwing lightning around. Precognition, guidance, strength.

 

Remember, lightsabers are all but impossible to use if you aren't a Force Sensitive. You're drawing on it at all times you have the thing out.

 

Its a handle with light that cuts everything that has no weight I do not think you have to be force sensitive to use that, unless you are blind. There are quite a number of non force sensitives that used lightsabers but the best known was Grevious and he proved that you do not need the force to be a ****** with a sword. Lets not forget he was the second best jedi killer in the galaxy and it was mostly because his lightsaber skills.

[MadDutchman]

Its a handle with light that cuts everything that has no weight I do not think you have to be force sensitive to use that, unless you are blind. There are quite a number of non force sensitives that used lightsabers but the best known was Grevious and he proved that you do not need the force to be a ****** with a sword. Lets not forget he was the second best jedi killer in the galaxy and it was mostly because his lightsaber skills.

 

Grevious got those "skills" via significant cybernetic enhancements.

 

Most of the non-force sensitive people with lightsabers used it more for show and opening doors than an actual effective weapon.

[adormitul]

Grevious got those "skills" via significant cybernetic enhancements.

 

Most of the non-force sensitive people with lightsabers used it more for show and opening doors than an actual effective weapon.

 

But still he did not need the force to be skilled with a lightsaber. He was even more skilled then jedi master and in the council hey there where only 4 jedi who could defeat him. Mace Windu, Obi won, that guy who can bread underwater and well of course Yoda.

[Canareth]

Its a handle with light that cuts everything that has no weight I do not think you have to be force sensitive to use that, unless you are blind. There are quite a number of non force sensitives that used lightsabers but the best known was Grevious and he proved that you do not need the force to be a ****** with a sword. Lets not forget he was the second best jedi killer in the galaxy and it was mostly because his lightsaber skills.

 

The "cuts everything in all directions with no weight" is why a normal person can't use it as a weapon. Without Force reflexes and precognition, you...

 

-- Can tag yourself with it without realizing what you're doing (because it has no mass or inertia, a center of gravity in the hilt and can't be touched on any side ever)

 

-- Can't block blaster shots, which is bad because you have a melee weapon and they dont

 

-- Can't fight actual Force users with lightsabers of their own because they ARE precogs and their blade is at least as fast as yours.

 

Grievous can because he's a purpose-built cyborg that has been trained in saber combat. As a machine he can avoid making mistakes in blade handling and think fast & accurately enough to win a fight with a Jedi.

Edited August 4, 2015 by Canareth

[Decony]

The "cuts everything in all directions with no weight" is why a normal person can't use it as a weapon. Without Force reflexes and precognition, you...

 

-- Can tag yourself with it without realizing what you're doing (because it has no mass or inertia, a center of gravity in the hilt and can't be touched on any side ever)

 

-- Can't block blaster shots, which is bad because you have a melee weapon and they dont

 

-- Can't fight actual Force users with lightsabers of their own because they ARE precogs and their blade is at least as fast as yours.

 

Grievous can because he's a purpose-built cyborg that has been trained in saber combat. As a machine he can avoid making mistakes in blade handling and think fast & accurately enough to win a fight with a Jedi.

 

 

As far as canon is concerned, you don't need to be force sensitive to wield a saber. Look at the Clone Wars animated series (which is canon) and check out how many non-force users wield it. To include random people picking up the saber and slinging it around well enough to fight actual Jedi. Its just like any other weapon, with patience and training anyone would be able to wield a saber. It being lightweight and a blade of light only makes it more difficult to use, not impossible for anyone lacking force training.

 

 

As far as the duelist thing is concerned, generally anyone who has trained extensively with a saber will be better than someone who has not. In this case, the knight trains more with it than the consular.

[Spetulhu]

IIRC the magnetic field that keeps the blade plasma contained will make swinging a lightsaber feel like it does have weight, and the pull shifts fast enough to surprise anyone without precog powers. Someone like Grievous could control it with his cyborg strength, a random unmodified human would probably quickly cut something he didn't intend to cut. Edited August 5, 2015 by Spetulhu

[adormitul]

But you still can use it without the force. To use a lightsaber you do not need the force.

[Rhyltran]

Who's the better duelist? A knight, with his unmatched skill with the blade, or the more sorcery types, who might not be as good at dueling, but they seem to have more force energy that they can amp themselves up with? Or is that not how it works?

 

That's how I imagine the ones like Yoda and Sidious can duel effectively. Or Dooku. They're old and frail! The force is what makes Yoda be able to fly around like sonic the hedgehog and make old Dooku physically strong enough to match a young jedi in his prime and do flips in the air.

 

As someone else has mentioned. Someone who prides themselves as a warrior is using the same amount of force as the sorcerer who's playing keep away. The sorcerer might focus on keeping someone at bay, using lightning, and other more esoteric powers but the bladesman is augmenting his strength, speed, reflexes, his precognition skills, and more. A sorcerer isn't innately better than a duelist and a duelist isn't better than a sorcerer. It comes down to who's more powerful and skilled in their respective styles. There's a reason under the rule of two there was no "Bladesman" or "Sorcerer." the rule of two Sith mastered every style of lightsaber combat there is and learned every sith technique there was to learn.

[Spetulhu]

But you still can use it without the force. To use a lightsaber you do not need the force.

 

True, but it's a lot harder than using a metal sword. The plasma containment field creates a "gyroscopic effect" that really screws with your ability to control the weapon. For full control you'd need to be very very strong (granted, some races are) or a Jedi/Sith who can foresee the shifts and compensate immediately or even a bit before needed, and probably also boosts his strength through the Force.

 

Using it as a tool to cut through doors, probably easy. Using it for a killing blow against a surprised target, probably also easy. But actually using it as your main weapon when you could have a blaster instead? No sane combatant lacking Force skills would try it. Picking up a weapon you have no training in (and lack essential powers to use) is a move of desperation.

[adormitul]

Does it come naturally for force users to use a lightsaber?

[Rhyltran]

Does it come naturally for force users to use a lightsaber?

 

Yes. The force guides a Jedi and Sith in it's creation and there's been force users who have created lightsabers without any training or guidance.

[Khryn]

You also have to remember that Jedi are trained from a very young age to use a Lightsaber. But it's a skill that they learn, and just like regular people some are more apt and have more natural skill with the Lightsaber. And those that do take the path of the Guardian they practice and drill to the point where they don't even have to think about their next moves.

 

The only defense a Consular (Sorcerer, Sage) type has is with their reliance on the precog ability. That precognition is why they know where a blade strike is going to come from, where a blaster bolt is coming in from... But that ability only takes them so far versus an opponent that has studied their whole life to use the blade.

 

If you want a book reference, in the Rule of Two, Darth Bane would have been struck down nearly immediately when he was on Tython and was attacked by those four Jedi Masters. The female Jedi (I can't remember her name) was so fast and skilled that she landed SEVERAL "lethal" strikes but he was saved by his insect armor. He knew all 7 forms and was a powerful Sith, but the Jedi Battlemaster had him out matched in Lightsaber combat.

 

As for a regular person using a saber, sure. They run the risk of severely hurting or killing themselves, but there are many examples of a non-force user taking up a blade for a simple task. (Han Solo in Empire Strikes Back.)

A skilled opponent could give a Jedi a run for their money, but the Force + Dedicated years of training makes the Jedi/Sith the dominant opponent.

[Aeneas_Falco]

My take with Jedi and Sith using lightsabers is that part of their skill comes from a form of clairvoyance linked to their connection to the force...being able to almost instinctually predict where their opponents strikes or shots are going to land before their opponents even make strike or take a shot. The other part of that skill comes from their superhuman strength, endurance, speed, and reflexes that also come from their connection to the force.

 

The winner in a duel between two force users probably isn't determined by technique in the same way that a sword fight between two real world people be, but by who has the stronger connection to the force, or who is able to maintain their concentration and focus the longest.

 

That isn't to say that technique wouldn't be important to a Jedi or a Sith. I imagine that the importance for training with them is to make those techniques almost second nature, something they can do without actively thinking about it, so that they are better able to focus solely on their connection to the force when involved in fights.

Edited August 10, 2015 by Aeneas_Falco