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Theory: Revan was weakened during Shadow of Revan

Aurbere

By Aurbere
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Aurbere

Aurbere

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Since I’m using SOR Revan in the current tourney on SWTOR, I decided to start thinking more about his appearances in the expansion. Working with ComicVine’s resident expert on all things Revan, DarthAnt66, we developed a theory on why Revan was hindered in combat with the Coalition Strike Force. The theory is comprised of several pieces that all fit into a single image: Revan is much more powerful than we see him in SOR. Please keep an open mind and enjoy the read!

 

Part 1: Revan’s existence itself.

 

 

This is a personal theory of mine that I developed on my own and ran past DarthAnt66 before committing it to memory. I believe that Revan’s physical survival after the Foundry has weakened him in a certain way. Firstly, however, I must highlight the most important part: Revan died. Indeed, Revan suffered a physical death after the Foundry battle, as he states himself:

 

“Oh, I was dead—for all of a blink.”—Revan

 

“When I died, I had come to terms. I was ready to become one with the Force.”—Spirit Revan

 

This personal theory of mine revolves around the idea that Revan continues to live through sheer willpower. In an act of Force Valor, Revan spurs his physical body onward, a body that ‘should have long since faded to dust’. It is my belief that Revan is constantly fueling his body with the Force, pushing it forward through Force Valor.

 

Why does this matter? My theory is under the belief that, because he was devoting such power to keep himself alive, he would have less to summon for offensive Force attacks, such as this. Essentially, I hypothesize that Revan was limited in the amount of energy he could summon for offensive attacks, because he was devoting energy to sustaining his physical form.

 

 

Part 2: Revan’s Split Identity

 

 

The phenomenon of Revan’s split between physical and spiritual forms is something that can also impact the physical Revan’s reserves of power. The split itself implies loss of power, as the spirit demonstrates very strong Force abilities of its own. For example: http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_medium/11114/111140132/4595462-3783156712-yg9qd.gif

 

Additionally, DarthAnt66 and I postulate that the Spirit of Revan played a vital role in the final fight with Revan, protecting the player character from Revan’s Force Destruction and providing them with the dark and light side energies to dispel Revan’s attack on the rest of the Coalition. We believe that the power belonging to the Spirit is a part of Revan’s overall power, thus suggesting that Revan after the split was already weakened, albeit the weakness was likely minor as the Spirit suggests that he could not confront SOR Revan directly:

 

“Now that your power has subsided, I may finally confront you.”—Spirit Revan

 

Essentially, Revan as of SOR is lacking a vital piece of himself. Thus, his power suffered because of this.

 

 

Part 3: Revan was potentially injured prior to the battle with the Coalition

 

 

This piece is under the logical impression that Revan engaged with a strike team during the Temple of Sacrifice operation. In this battle, Revan disappears prior to being defeated, presumably teleporting to the Forgotten Terrace. For reference:

 

Again, note that Revan disappears before he is defeated. Additionally, Revan was channeling immense raw power during the battle and was interrupted, causing him to suffer a backlash. DarthAnt66 and I believe that Revan was injured in this confrontation and thus not at peak fighting condition for his battle with Satele Shan, Darth Marr, and company.

 

 

Part 4: Satele Shan’s Battle Meditation

 

 

An important factor in the final battle itself is Satele Shan’s Battle Meditation. As we all know, the technique increases the abilities of allies while decreasing the abilities of enemies. As a descendant of Bastila Shan, it is likely that Satele Shan’s Battle Meditation hindered Revan to some degree. Additionally, Satele’s Battle Meditation was stated to have greatly increased the combat abilities of her allies, as noted here:

 

"[The Coalition Strike Team's] combat effectiveness is greatly increased."

―Star Wars: The Old Republic

"[satele Shan] is increasing the combat effectiveness of all friendly characters within range."

―Star Wars: The Old Republic

 

Despite these factors, dialogue suggests that the strike team was struggling with Revan during the encounter:

"So much power... be strong!"

―Lana Beniko (Star Wars: The Old Republic)

"He is strong with the Force! Argh!"

―Darth Marr (Star Wars: The Old Republic)

"Grant me strength! Keep... fighting...!"

―Satele Shan (Star Wars: The Old Republic)

 

While not absolutely certain, DarthAnt66 and I believe that Satele Shan’s Battle Meditation hindered Revan to a degree. We suggest that this is another way in which Revan was injured.

 

 

Part 5: Revan is not necessarily a dark force user

 

 

Over time, many suggestions have come up that Revan would have benefitted from the dark side nexus of Yavin IV. Additionally, some claim that SOR Revan is ‘Dark’ while Spirit Revan is ‘Light’. This is not the case. A great deal of evidence suggests that both sides of Revan are able to employ both sides of the Force. Firstly, I’d like to address what the split is.

 

“Hatred fueled cunning, but burned out all wisdom. Without me, you could not see.”—Spirit Revan

 

This highlights what the split truly is. Spirit Revan embodies wisdom and clarity, while SOR Revan is strength and anger. What I personally believe is that the two are representative of something rather Freudian. Where Spirit Revan symbolizes the rational-thinking Ego and Superego, SOR Revan appears to be the Id without the perceived limitations that the Ego and Superego place on it. Essentially, SOR Revan is lacking in the ability to see the truth of his actions and will push for his goals no matter the cost. It is not definitive, but it highlights my point here: the split is primarily mental, not spiritual. (For some information on these Freudian concepts, see here: http://examples.yourdictionary.com/examples-of-id-ego-and-superego.html )

 

The latter condition (that is, the not spiritual part) is most emphasized when they both employ both sides of the Force. For reference, here is the battle:

 

For any who have played the fight, you can note that SOR Revan incapacitates the Coalition team members in whirlwinds of pure Light or Dark side energy. For those who believe that Spirit Revan also aided in the fight, we can note that he summoned orbs of Light or Dark side energy to counteract SOR Revan’s attack. Thus, we can see that both sides of Revan were capable of drawing on both sides of the Force.

 

Thus, because SOR Revan draws on both sides of the Force, the nexus of Yavin IV would actually hinder him to a degree, rather than simply augment his powers. Revan would find his ability to call on the Light to be limited by the nexus. It is for this reason that DarthAnt66 and I believe Revan to have been hindered by the Yavin IV nexus.

 

 

In conclusion, while not entirely concrete in some areas, DarthAnt66 and I believe that there were several elements affecting Revan that would limit his ability to call on the Force. Thus, we believe that Revan’s displays of power against the Coalition Strike Team were certainly not examples of his full power.

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Newyankalt

Newyankalt

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Well to me it seems like a given he wasn't nearly as powerful as he could be. As I understand he basically had a split personality and the one we fought in the storyline was his dark side which Revan has always been less powerful with if its just light vs dark and he isn't using both.

 

 

Also that strike team as someone said above isn't actually all that good, Jakarro, Theron, Shae Vizla are not that great. Lana isn't the most powerful either which really leaves Marr and Satele. Satele helps a lot with her battle mediation and Marr I imagine is a pretty powerful lightsaber combatant but we don't know much about him or who he has fought in the past. The player character is also situational obviously the Smuggler, Bounty Hunter, Agent or Trooper realistically is outclassed big time here.

 

Yes I'm going off the solo side of SoR because that's the stuff that will be considered canon in future sorry content. But like I said that strike team isn't that impressive fighting against Revan who yes was probably much weaker then he could have been.

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Aurbere

Aurbere

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Well to me it seems like a given he wasn't nearly as powerful as he could be. As I understand he basically had a split personality and the one we fought in the storyline was his dark side which Revan has always been less powerful with if its just light vs dark and he isn't using both.

 

It's not a spiritual split, in my opinion. I point out how it is definitely far more likely to be mental in the OP.

 

Also that strike team as someone said above isn't actually all that good, Jakarro, Theron, Shae Vizla are not that great. Lana isn't the most powerful either which really leaves Marr and Satele. Satele helps a lot with her battle mediation and Marr I imagine is a pretty powerful lightsaber combatant but we don't know much about him or who he has fought in the past. The player character is also situational obviously the Smuggler, Bounty Hunter, Agent or Trooper realistically is outclassed big time here.

 

Yes I'm going off the solo side of SoR because that's the stuff that will be considered canon in future sorry content. But like I said that strike team isn't that impressive fighting against Revan who yes was probably much weaker then he could have been.

 

Not entirely accurate. Jakarro, we know little about, but Theron and Shae are actually extremely good fighters. I'll have to get some info for you if you're interested. Marr as well has been stated as having combat abilities second to none in the Empire, which suggests a pretty high level of skill and power.

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Newyankalt

Newyankalt

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It's not a spiritual split, in my opinion. I point out how it is definitely far more likely to be mental in the OP.

 

 

 

Not entirely accurate. Jakarro, we know little about, but Theron and Shae are actually extremely good fighters. I'll have to get some info for you if you're interested. Marr as well has been stated as having combat abilities second to none in the Empire, which suggests a pretty high level of skill and power.

 

But good fighters against someone like Revan? I always find it hard to believe that certain people can put up fights against strong force users. Jedi is more understandable, they're more restrained and do not resort to killing as a first option like Cad Bane vs Kenobi and Vos. But Sith? I don't see why Revan wouldn't cut down Theron with ease.

 

But a lot of it in this game is mechanics as well, the Smuggler would never kill Darth Decimus in a real fight.

 

Just wondering but is Marr above even Nox and the Wrath then? In terms of power, I guess that is hard to determine because of game mechanics but those two seem like the Empires best.

 

 

As for the spiritual/ mental thing it seemed like a little bit of both to me but I'll have to look over the OP more later, I just gave my opinion since I have to go now :p

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Rodyn

Rodyn

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ohh for crying out load the guy required a strike team consisting of 8 of the most powerful force users in the galaxy to take down and thats STILL not eneugh for the fanboys?

 

Yeah, no joke. Revan fanboys never cease to amaze me.

Edited by Rodyn
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Decension

Decension

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OP makes excellent points that are well researched. I applaud.

 

I don't necessarily think its that hard to figure out though. Yes he was weakened due to those reasons. But, he was killed like 2 years(I think) earlier by a group of 4 imperial operatives/sith/bounty hunters. Yeah Revan is strong, but he's not Space Jesus. I really think people are forgetting that Revan still needed help from a LOT of people to defeat Malak, and yeah his power must have grown since then, but he didn't do any dark side ritual that destroyed to make himself immensely powerful. Only our version of Sauron did that.

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cs_zoltan

cs_zoltan

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Part 1: Revan’s existence itself.

Part 2: Revan’s Split Identity

Part 3: Revan was potentially injured prior to the battle with the Coalition

Part 4: Satele Shan’s Battle Meditation

Part 5: Revan is not necessarily a dark force user

  1. I don't see why Revan would be special about this. Vader, Sion, and Maul all willed themselves back to life. Why would only Revan need Force Valor to exist? Especially if you consider his potent Force Healing.
  2. I don't know, it makes sense, but it could swing both ways. Spirit Revan, by definition was a Spirit so it's power was almost limitless.
  3. That makes sense, but he also had, as I pointed out above, potent Force Healing. So I don't think he was injured, he just had to exert a good deal of Force energy.
  4. This is the tricky part. Remember how Meetra was a joke of a Jedi on Dromund Kaas? Or how Yoda couldn't even call on the Force on the same planet? Yavin IV is a very potent Dark Side Nexus. How powerful do you think Shan's Battle Meditation could've been?
  5. Yeah, no. Ideals and motives doesn't really matter. What matters is what Revan were using. SoR Revan was heavily drawing on Dark Side emotions.
    "Can't you see what you've become? Your hatred and regrets are consuming you." - Satele Shan
    "So many centuries. The Emperor and his Dread Masters, trying to wrench me apart, to unleas my anger and hatred. I detached myself from the pain. Focused on the Force." - Spirit Revan
    “Hatred fueled cunning, but burned out all wisdom. Without me, you could not see.” - Spirit Revan
    Put the Anakin Skywalker vs Count Dooku duel on Yavin IV and Anakin would've been amped by it. He was a Jedi, he did what was right, his ideals were intact back then, but he was drawing on the Dark Side to defeat Dooku.

 

 

My biggest gripe with the idea that SoR Revan was weakened is that it would make him inconsistant. SoR Revan already looks more powerful than Foundry Revan. So if he was even weakened, then Foundry Revan should've beaten the Imperial strike team with his right hand behind his back, using only a Shoto.

Edited by cs_zoltan
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Selenial

Selenial

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ohh for crying out load the guy required a strike team consisting of 8 of the most powerful force users in the galaxy to take down and thats STILL not eneugh for the fanboys?

 

:D

 

I like this guy. This guy gets me.

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Selenial

Selenial

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Totally on topic:

 

How's the Darth Vader and Darth Tyranus vs Darth Nox and Emperor's Wrath post coming along? ^^

 

Done Tyranus vs Nox, need to do Vader vs Wrath...

 

Takes a long time when you're doing it between raiding and Smite and stuff.

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Beniboybling

Beniboybling

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I agree with Zoltan mostly, Aurbere makes fair points about Revan's sundered condition making him unstable and in need of sustenance, but Yavin 4 could easily have given him all the sustenance he needed and then some.

 

I mean let's not forget that this is the same planet that was fueling the Sith Emperor's disembodied will, and made him strong enough to feed off a planet-wide conflict. And Revan is sitting on a focal point of power on top of that.

 

I've already covered extensively why Revan despite his personality, would still be amped by a nexus:

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=8065928&postcount=3853

 

Basically what Zoltan said, in addition to the fact that Revan uses practically only dark side powers in that fight.

 

However the main point is that it's simply unreasonable to assume he wasn't amplified by a nexus, and it's very much untenable to follow Aurbere's theory to its logical conclusions.

 

First off take into account the adversaries Revan was facing off against:

 

Darth Marr, the foremost member of the Dark Council, Satele Shan, the Grandmaster of the Jedi Order, Lana Beniko, a highly powerful Sith. One of the protags among who could have been the Hero of Tython, the most powerful Jedi of the current era, or other heavyweights like Nox, the Wrath or the Barsenthor, and then a pair of non-Force sensitives.

 

In the course of this fight Revan dominates all but the protag with telekinesis and indefinitely. Marr and Satele are again, powerhouses easily comparable to the likes of Darth Malgus. Himself an individual whose being compared to Vader. And though realistically he is not as powerful as Vader, the combined abilities of two Force Users not that far beneath Malgus certainly is, and more than that, outstrips him. Add Lana Beniko on top of that and we are easily entering Caedus/Talzin level tiers if not beyond that, throwing in a couple of non-Force sensitives seals the deal.

 

I say this because Revan dominated them all at once, with is essentially the same as dominating one individual of their collective power, an individual like Caedus, Talzin, or even Plagueis. And here in lies the absurdity, only Luke Skywalker, easily the most powerful Force User ever, has been able to restrain the likes of Caedus, and unlikely for an indefinite period of time. Are we know to assume that Revan is a being of his caliber? If not beyond?

 

Need I remind you that we are told that in comparison to the Sith Emperor, Revan is nothing?

 

"The Emperor is the dark side incarnate. You wouldn't stand a chance."

 

--Emperor's Wrath, Shadow of Revan

 

"...The Emperor will prove far too powerful for Revan, or anyone else."

 

--Darth Marr, Shadow of Revan

Then we also have the fact that Revan was able to take on the Wrath, Darth Nox, the Hero of Tython and the Barsentho'r with four of the galaxy's greatest fighters as backup, and not perish immediately, despite many of them being the most powerful Force users of the era and indeed among those in history.

 

No doubt a certain brand of fanboy would be more than happy to accept Revan as a Luke-tier Force user and the Sith Emperor as more powerful than the Ones, but I am not among them, and I'd like to think that most of us aren't.

 

To argue that Revan was unaffected by the nexus is frankly therefore, absurd, to take it one step further and suggest that he was not only unaffected, but weakened? The word insanity comes to mind.

Edited by Beniboybling
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Beniboybling

Beniboybling

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Beni covered everything I wanted to say really, I guess he's willing to put the effort in :D
I try. :o

 

Another thing that's come to my attention that I've probably mentioned before is that the following:

 

 

Appears the product of some kind of ritual. First off notice how each of the victims are thrown between different pillar formations in complete symmetry, with Revan positioned in the center no less. If this were just a standard TK attack it seems incredibly unlikely that they would just happen to end up perfectly positioned between the pillars in this way.

 

In fact, no doubt the probability of that happening is infinitely low, it is clear that they is some kind of method to all this.

 

Likewise the means by which you "free" them, by grabbing special coloured orbs and bringing them to the corresponding colours of the energy around the victims, shows an equal level of method, or rather ritual.

 

I mean really, since when is TK of any kind countered in this manner? The very fact that you have to free them implying they were trapped in some kind of complicated construct in the first place, again an indication of ritual.

 

Then finally we have the arena itself, it may seem non-descript at first but the architecture has an undeniable pattern to it, a design, which again appears to be somehow linked to this attack. And we know Sith species perfected the art of using their architecture to channel the dark side, whom I'd remind you the Massassi people are descendant from.

The Sith have had a thousand generations to perfect the dark arts. The ziggurats of stacked stone and the mountainsides carved into stern faces are more than just tombs for vanished kings. When you stand at the intersection of this mystic architecture, you feel a rush of wind and a shiver of electricity. The angles of these mausoleums focus the arcane energies of the Force.

 

--Soruz Syn's chronicle in The Book of Sith

The angles of this arena, the obvious design and symmetrical nature of the circle strongly suggests that this space isn't just for decoration, but is one of these intersections, a focal point that would facilitate Revan's ritual attack and indeed further channel the copious amounts of dark side energy already saturating the planet.

Edited by Beniboybling
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cs_zoltan

cs_zoltan

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She killed two of the best Imperial Guards in a matter of seconds....

 

Well I just read the battle again, and she didn't:

 

 

At the same time, Meetra threw herself at the two guards standing in front of the doors to the throne room, her lightsaber materializing in her hand.

Ordinary soldiers would have been chopped down before they could even draw their weapons, but the Imperial Guard were not so easily felled. The first soldier met her charge and parried the first strike with his electrostaff, the resilient metal of his weapon deflecting the energy blade of the Jedi off to the side so that it carved a deep scar in the wall.

The second soldier leapt into the fray, forcing Meetra to fall back a step to absorb their coordinated attack.

 

...

 

T3 had followed him into the throne room, but Meetra and Scourge were still locked in battle with the guards in the hall outside.

 

...

 

While he and Meetra fought the quartet of guards, T3-M4 was busy sealing the doors.

 

...

 

“We have to help Revan!” Meetra shouted, and Scourge turned to see that she, too, had just finished off her opponents. “He needs us!”

 

 

This went on for 4 pages. Unless you meant another instance of course. But either way it doesn't really matter. The fact is she was weakened. "Joke of a Jedi" was just a hyperbole. I'll make sure not to use hyperboles next time with Meetra Surik, Shaak Ti, Revan, Darth Traya, Jaina Solo, or Aurra Sing :p

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cs_zoltan

cs_zoltan

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Where did I put that quote concerning what happened to Sel's last apprentice...

 

*Starts Digging through quotes*

 

This is all the quote you need:

It is for that reason among others that I declare Team Cs_Zoltan the winner, who moves on Quarter-Finals.
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