SWTOR Duelling Tournament - Heats/Round 2B: Team Tunewalker vs Team Randomname

[tunewalker]

Random, pretty pretty pretty please bombard Tune with a wall of Grievous' feats and accolades, because this is getting ridiculous.

 

Edit: im done OCW Greivous > everyone from every era, he solos teams and every one can just leave me alone

 

 

 

And you are not correcting Zoltan you ahve linked NOTHING to disprove any of what I have said. Correcting is linking something or showing something where the person who is making hte theory or argument missed some crucial data and isnt using a scene or a accolade to back up his claim. Everything I have said about greivous I have linked something to backing it up. Unless you have a link to something that says its wrong Shut up and leave. TCW is Disney Canon, OCW isnt... there is a reason.

Edited July 15, 2015 by tunewalker

[Silenceo]

Edit: im done OCW Greivous > everyone from every era, he solos teams and every one can just leave me alone

 

[cs_zoltan]

And you are not correcting Zoltan you ahve linked NOTHING to disprove any of what I have said.

 

Nor will I. I let Random do that if he wants to. Otherwise you can ignore me if you like.

Edited July 15, 2015 by cs_zoltan

[tunewalker]

Is greivous a skilled tactitian? yes

 

Does that make him a good small team fighter? no

 

Does that make Kyp a tactical Idiot? no

 

Is greivous a Skilled Saber duelist with a highly unorthodox fighting style? Yes

 

Does that mean greivous can only be beat by Kenobi everr? no

 

Does that mean we ignore all instances when he did lose to other people such as Dooku or Kit fisto? no

 

Does this mean we ignore Dooku's claims of "if you are to succeed in combat against the best of the Jedi, you must have Fear, Surprise and Intimidation on your side, for if any one of them is lacking it would be best for you to retreat you must break them before you engage them."? no

 

Does it mean we only take that with out proof of that statements accuracy? no

 

After examining Greivous's record can we see that as an accurate statement? yes, he has never beaten people Like Shaak Ti, or Kit Fisto, or Obi-wan, or Windu, or Dooku or any of hte other "best of the jedi" with out breaking them first.

 

Does that make Kyp an amateur duelist that doesnt know how to hold a saber? no according to his era he is "the best of the Jedi"

 

Was Greivous able to handle a group of extremely tired jedi masters? Yes

 

Does this mean he can fight a group? yes

 

Does this mean he can handle attacks from multiple angles? not neccisarily it depends on how he fought those masters.....

 

How did he fight those masters then? He seperated them out 1 at a time and turned the battle into a sequence of 1v1 duels

 

Does this make him a skilled single on multi tactitian? yes

 

Does this mean he can handle attacks from multiple angles? no

 

Does this mean he is vulnerable to attacks from multiple angles? no we need more proof of that..... that is why we go to the gungan scene where the different circumstances and the attacks from multiple angles adding in projectiles makes a difference ensuring that YES when projectiles are used he has a problem with attacks from multiple angles.

 

Is this scene any less canon then his Hypori one? no technically its "more canon" so ignoreing it is only giving some one a scewed fan boyish view of a character instead of an accurate view of the full and complete character.

 

Does greivous show the ability to handle most kinds of Force attacks? yes

 

Does this make him completely immune to all force attacks? depends if we see attacks work on him or not.

 

Do we see Force attacks work on him? yes in all 3 media's he has appeared in a force attack can end the fight against him, between Dooku's grabing his leg, Windu Crushing his chest, and Obi-wan pushing him away causing him to drop his weapons.

 

Is greivous facing a Force wielder on par with these individuals? yes in fact if we REALLY want to dig into it and look back we can look to the old "most powerful jedi" thread and point where Kyp is on that list and dooku and obi-wan are not. Now I have said in the past, and I still follow it, that these lists are still fan made but by being there we can at least say he is a Jedi of the highest caliber, because ,in fact, he is. Greivous has never beaten a Jedi of Kyp's caliber with out seriously breaking them first, and he isnt getting time to do that.

 

 

Does Kyp even have to do this alone? no

 

What does his partners bring to the table in his face off against greivous? K'kruhk gives first hand accounts and experience of Grievous through a force meld provided by Leia and Streen provides Greivous's current thoughts through his Telepathic abilities that have been noted as being able to read every mind around him with out him wanting to before his training. After training he could focus it. Giving Kyp a 100% knowledge of every thought and feeling his opponent has thus reducing the chance of greivous out smarting him to 0 regardless of if greivous is or is not smarter then his opponent.

 

With all of these things combined has greivous ever come close to beating a Master of Kyp's caliber? no Greivous has never been at such a large disadvantage, he has never faced an opponent that was adaptable like Kyp that he had 0 prior knowledge of that has knowledge of him and can read every thought and reaction from him, let alone one that is considered "one of the best of hte jedi" with out breaking said individual first.

[raandomname]

Grievous vs Kyp

 

As for Leia's speed feat. Thats completely different then holding of rapid lightsaber attacks. To deflect the blaster bolts, all she had to do was hold her blade in the path of the shots and hold it steady, perhaps shift it a few degrees left or right as the droid shifted his aim. Against lightsaber strikes coming from 4 directions at the same time at unpredictable angles this will be completely different. Also note that blocking a blaster bolt is in a way easier then a blade, because the bolt is smaller and you thus only have to cover a smaller area, while you have to block the entirety of the blade in a manner that no part of it can hurt you. I also see no indication that the droids fired all of these shots in only one second, especially because afaik we have never seen a comparable rate of fire in any blaster.

As for multiple attack angles, saying that all he can do is helicopter is incorrect. He only goes helicopter mode when engaging all 5 at the same time, when engaging 2 or 3 opponents he duels normally and makes massive use of his immense speed and agility. I also dont see why the Jedi are supposed to be broken. Suprised, slightly intimidated, sure but broken? These are Jedi masters, I honestly doubt that one defeat and fighting of B2s would break them. Mundi's padawan was broken, but he had nowhere near the experience of the others. And the others seemed to be really throwing everything they had at Grievous. As for Geonosis I assume that he then faced all of these 300+ people one v one. It is also incorrect that my sources are from OCW alone, they include the Star Wars Encyclopedia, the comic General Grievous, RotS novelisation, Labyrinth of Evil and the Star Wars Insider. And thus yes OCW is a more accurate portrayel of Grievous, as TWC contradicts ALL of these in its portayal of Grievous. And please lets not go more into this and accept that the Gungan thing is a single low-end among a myriad of high ends, before this thread goes up in the flames of my TWC hate. I also already said how the Gungan thing mainly was down to overconfidence.

Also you still havent addressed the fact that Mace who is a superior blade master to Kyp, had a terrain advantage and was certainly not broken, was unable to defeat Grievous in light saber combat.

As for Kenobi vs Grievous in RotS you seem to miss the very important point that Grievous was damaged by Mace's fc. Thats the reason why hes coughing 24/7. then Obi-wan only kills him with the blaster, because he had previously torn open Gievous' chest plate, that had previously been damaged by Mace's fc, with his force augmented strenght and then fired into the gap he had created. Under normal circumstances the shots wouldnt have done jack squat to Grievous' armor.

As for Streen's mind reading, I am not convinced that Itll work as intended. It would obviously work on Grievous if he was a normal organic being, but he isnt. He is a cyborg and in fact many of the cybernetics in his brain are specifically responsible for combat. These include his combat analysis computer, reaction speed enhancements and combat programing. While Streen will be able to read Grievous' mind, he will not be able to read his computer parts and it seems as if these are largely responsible for his fighting. Furthermore, even if Strenn is able to find out everything that Grievous will do, it is still questionable whether he will be able to warn Kyp in time and that Kyp wil be able to react in time. Streen has to read a strik every 0.05 seconds acurately enough for the information to be useful, convey the message to Kyp acurately enough for the information to be useful and then Kyp has to act upon the information all within 0.05 seconds.

 

Wrath vs K'kurhk

 

First of all I cant see any special deception that Grievous supposedly used against K'kurhk. All he did was kick up some dust, then K'kurhk charged him and was cut down. If some dust is all that is needed to gain an edge over him, the Wrath can easily do that, noting how he would be uneffected by the dust, due to his helmet. The scene also shows a clear demonstration of K'kurhk tactical inaptness. Instead of washing the dust aside with the force or waiting to assess his situation or wait for bavkup, he charges Grievous blindy and is subsequently cut down.

It is also incrrect that all of the Wrath's opponents are physically deficient. He faced Darth Ekkage, the greatest Sith assassin of her time, the Sith Infiltrators, Sel-Makor, Lord Dragh and countless Jedi knights and Sith Lords. As for many of the Wrath's opponents, while we dont have feats for him, we do know that Darth Baras and other Sith assessed them as extremely powerful. Note that unlike Jedi, Sith only judge people based on their power, unlike Jedi who may see someone as great due to character, wisdom etc. So if a Sith Lord says that someone is powerful, than he is powerful. However, K'kuhk's reputation as a great Jedi master, may be more due to his wisdom, then his actual power and skill. Also most of the Wrath's opponents are old, well guess whos old too? K'kurhk. If youre using Legacy K'kurhk then he should be at least 170 years old. While, you complained that the Wrath has defeated no opponent with noteworthy feats you still have not provided any real feats for K'kurhk. All that you have posted about K'kurhk yet essentially is: he is strong = profit. The Wrath has defeated myriads of powerful force users, wears extremelly durable armor and can summon force shields at a moments notice. I would also say that he is faster, because he has killed Jedi with light saber throws, before they could even activate their weapons. Also as I mentioned previously, none of the fighting styles that the Wrath uses are slow. Djem so even increases his movement speed in game and he has many abilities that involve rapid jumps. As he is a master duelist, I would also assume that the Wrath has mastered the light saber forms he uses. While Shi cho, is a basic form, I see no reason why the Wrath would not have enhanced it to the point that, similar to Fisto's Shi cho, albeit probably not quite as good, Fisto is the greatest user of Shi cho ever afterall, it becomes random and unpredictable, just like the random and unpredictable style of Grievous who easily defeated K'kurhk. While K'kurhk may be stronger then the Wrath when using Djem So, the Wrath's superior skill, defeating dozens of powerful force users vs being taken aback by a tactic as simple as throwing up some dust, should still allow him to defrat K'kurhk's brute force. And while Soresu is a defensive style, it still aims to find and expoit holes in an opponent's offence and I see no reason why the more skilled Wrath should fail to do so.

 

Jadus vs Leia

First of all, Im finally gonna address the massive misconception that Cipher 9 defeated Jadus. He did not. All he did was hold Jadus of long enough for Watcher 2 to hack, redirect and activate the containment field. Which honestly should have not taken much more then 10 seconds, seeing how skilled members of SI are and that she should have been as familiar with a Harrower class, the main stay of the Imperial Navy, as her back pocket. In fact I will argue that the entire fight was only for gameplay purposes. What probably happened realistically was that Cipher used his stealth to hide out or used his various energy shields to endure Jadus' attacks for the short amount of time that Watcher 2 needed to activate the containment field. However, there has to be an actual fight in game, because othersise the IA would not have had a Chapter 1 boss and just running around and trying to survive would have been disapointing to play.

 

Teamwork

Once again I have to ask, WHY WOULD MY TEAM MEMBERS FIGHT IN PLACES, WHERE THEY ARE IN THE FIRING LINE OF THEIR ALLIES? In fact, my team members who KNOW that they themselves are no team players, would try to fight a good distance away from their allies and as I mentioned before they are all able to rapidly and easily change position. Also the vidoe you liked is not relevant in this case, because none of my team members are engaging yours 2 v 1 and while yes, it is common for fighters to get into each others way when multiple fighters engage a single opponent, I am not aware of it happening when fighters of 2 sides engage each other 1 v 1.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Regarding the Grevious vs Gungans thing, there are things overlooked that obviously contributed to his defeat rather than just because.

 

1. As said, Grevious was overconfident. He even says as much by saying "you can't be serious?" then he laughs about it. Which brings the point of, he also wasn't taking the threat of Gungans seriously.

 

2. It's not like he didn't just fall, he slaughtered several Gungans before Capt Tarpal came in and sacrificed himself.

 

 

Big thing in a fight people, don't underestimate your opponent this could lead the guy into hot water, slacking on his defenses and in the end getting defeated because he thought his opponent was less than he was.

 

It's also not like before this, the Gungans haven't shown combat capability. You have them fighting against the Naboo in the Gungan-Naboo War, they fought off invaders, fought an overwhelming army of the Trade Federation, helped the Mon Cal in TCW so on.

 

Saying they are all incompetent because of Jar Jar, when it was specifically stated in EP 1 he had been banished because of that reason, is being ignorant. It should have been obvious Jar Jar was the exception, not the rule considering other Gungans knew how to fight and were shown to be great commanders IE: Captain Tarpal.

 

All this being said, that instance can't really be used here considering Grevious won't be underestimating nor slacking against his opponents.

Edited July 16, 2015 by Wolfninjajedi

[raandomname]

All this being said, that instance can't really be used here considering Grevious won't be underestimating nor slacking against his opponents.

This.

[raandomname]

Dealing with multiple attack angles:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114474/4228524-wrecks+clones.png

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114474/4228688-vs+two+jedi2.png

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114474/4228653-vs+rogues8.png

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114474/4228659-vs+rogues14.png

 

 

Something else about speed:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114474/4228649-vs+rogues6.png

And that's coming from:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/3940348-8177313120-37888.jpg

 

Edit: some more speed:

His strikes were as forceful as any Mace had ever had to counter, and his speed was astonishing.

--Labyrinth of Evil

Edited July 17, 2015 by raandomname

[tunewalker]

I will go into it more later and show you all how it will work, but for now

 

 

Before Satele leaves. This shows exactly what I am talking about happening with the saber throw and Vindican ducking it just to get Malgus his by it causing him to get kicked away freeing up Satele to attack Vindican who lightnings her away just to open himself up to a shove by Kao Cen. The video I linked with Toph and Katara is even more relevant, because the event is still 100% possible its just instead of only having the 1 person (aang) ready to capitalize and instead of Katara paying attention to toph. Random's team will not be paying attention to one another they will be focused on their "1v1's" which arent even 1v1 since everyone is just ignoring streen right now.

 

Jadus is throwing his stones at Leia... Say he throws 10 in a sequence trying to trap her, she deflects the first 2 harmlessly, dodges the third, and the fourth, and in dodging the fourth she puts herself inbetween Jadus and the Wrath, The room isnt that big Jadus is focused on Leia, Wrath is focused on K'kruhk. Leia dodges the next shot and K'kruhk know's it is coming Wrath comes at K'kruhk completely unaware of whats about to happen and gets hit by the rock off balancing him and shoving him into K'kruhk's sword (think Welk vs Luke except no force pull and its coming from another team mate and no Lumiya to turn the blade off). Jadus now has leia trapped though having surrounded her with rocks finally and launches them all at her at the same time, but Leia AND streen, the other one he forgot about deflect one giving her a way out, they deflect it towards Greivous who again is completely unaware especially since he has no force powers at all to detect it.

 

Did Jadus do this? no not really, it was technically Leia. He didnt need to line up with his team mate take a paper make 2 dots on it then draw a line. Every single person here is a dot, and between every dot a line can be drawn (the shortest distance between 2 points is a straight line, point and dot are the same thing). In this small place sure they can fight some distance away from one another, but as shown in The Return trailer, that doesnt mean much when you have force users capable of chucking anything that isnt bolted down. Heck an example from the Trailer itself has the lightsaber throw. Leia swings her sword at the guy who has 0 saber dueling feats (Jadus) and Jadus ducks it or teleports out of hte way just to find that she throws it at another target who gets off balanced by it... or better yet impaled by it, no one saw it coming because the swing and the throw were in the same motion Streen intercepts the blow that is coming leia's way long enough for her to retrieve her lightsaber. And again Jadus has never shown Teleport used execessively in combat it is noted as using up a lot of force power to do, so its not practical for constantly dodging leia.

 

This isnt a sequence of 1v1 fights. This is a 4v3 fight, and better yet this is a 4v3 fight where the 3 want to make it into 1v1's and the 4 want to stay working as a team.. if any one has links to other group on group fights other then the Kao Cen darach one I am sure I can point out a bunch in those one's as well of what I am talking about.

 

 

Like I said ultimately this is what it boils down to

 

My team

vs

enemy team

 

They dont need to be 2v1, 2v2 makes this even worse because where 2v1 means the 1 dodged and the now off balanced person just cant attack the 1, in a 2v2 situation the same thing still happens if one team in sync and the other is not, the only difference is now the person that was off balanced is dead because the person that dodged wasnt the only threat. These fights are never 1v1 or a sequence of 1v1's and thinking of them that way is flawed, unless you can give a reason your team can turn them into a bunch of isolated duels seperating their opponents from their allies. In this case, my team has worked as a team before and will have no desire to spread off to fight a series of 1v1's if the opponent runs trying to issolate my team, all they will succeed in doing is isolating themselves allowing my team to pick them off 1 at a time.

 

 

Edit: more team on team shinanigans. And these guys are actually used to working on a team https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWq6fP9Nw80 a team can save or ruin any one. (also I know I keep using examples from other shows, i am just not aware of any 3v3 or 3v4 fights in star wars with notable people, its usually 2v1 or on very rare occassions 2v2. or other times 2v4 or 3v group or something like that 3 relative equals vs 3 relative equals just doesnt happen very often in star wars.) Your team doesnt have to line themselves up if my team does it for them, they just have to focus on their 1 target, and as solo fighters that's what they are going to do https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g--_9x9lmNM. It has 0 to do with intelligence and 100% to do with a team that is in sync and a team that isnt.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pThEcRbtGCY 14:45 again team vs team when BOTH teams are in sync, imagine if one wasnt how many times one side or the other would have been decimated.

Edited July 17, 2015 by tunewalker

[tunewalker]

Wrath vs K'kurhk

 

First of all I cant see any special deception that Grievous supposedly used against K'kurhk. All he did was kick up some dust, then K'kurhk charged him and was cut down. If some dust is all that is needed to gain an edge over him, the Wrath can easily do that, noting how he would be uneffected by the dust, due to his helmet. The scene also shows a clear demonstration of K'kurhk tactical inaptness. Instead of washing the dust aside with the force or waiting to assess his situation or wait for bavkup, he charges Grievous blindy and is subsequently cut down.

It is also incrrect that all of the Wrath's opponents are physically deficient. He faced Darth Ekkage, the greatest Sith assassin of her time, the Sith Infiltrators, Sel-Makor, Lord Dragh and countless Jedi knights and Sith Lords. As for many of the Wrath's opponents, while we dont have feats for him, we do know that Darth Baras and other Sith assessed them as extremely powerful. Note that unlike Jedi, Sith only judge people based on their power, unlike Jedi who may see someone as great due to character, wisdom etc. So if a Sith Lord says that someone is powerful, than he is powerful. However, K'kuhk's reputation as a great Jedi master, may be more due to his wisdom, then his actual power and skill. Also most of the Wrath's opponents are old, well guess whos old too? K'kurhk. If youre using Legacy K'kurhk then he should be at least 170 years old. While, you complained that the Wrath has defeated no opponent with noteworthy feats you still have not provided any real feats for K'kurhk. All that you have posted about K'kurhk yet essentially is: he is strong = profit. The Wrath has defeated myriads of powerful force users, wears extremelly durable armor and can summon force shields at a moments notice. I would also say that he is faster, because he has killed Jedi with light saber throws, before they could even activate their weapons. Also as I mentioned previously, none of the fighting styles that the Wrath uses are slow. Djem so even increases his movement speed in game and he has many abilities that involve rapid jumps. As he is a master duelist, I would also assume that the Wrath has mastered the light saber forms he uses. While Shi cho, is a basic form, I see no reason why the Wrath would not have enhanced it to the point that, similar to Fisto's Shi cho, albeit probably not quite as good, Fisto is the greatest user of Shi cho ever afterall, it becomes random and unpredictable, just like the random and unpredictable style of Grievous who easily defeated K'kurhk. While K'kurhk may be stronger then the Wrath when using Djem So, the Wrath's superior skill, defeating dozens of powerful force users vs being taken aback by a tactic as simple as throwing up some dust, should still allow him to defrat K'kurhk's brute force. And while Soresu is a defensive style, it still aims to find and expoit holes in an opponent's offence and I see no reason why the more skilled Wrath should fail to do so.

 

 

So I will cover teh "deception" that you missed when I cover the whole fight since analyzing fights seems to be my pass time and no one elses so lets get to the "Wrath's stuff"

 

Ekaage= Aging Woman, instead of Aging man... ya that's called physically deficiant. and she has no saber feats, or feats of any kind just "hey she is really good" going for her so basically "nameless sith number 212" but was given a name

 

Sel-makor has no actual body as far as I can tell its a spirit of some kind, that inhabited a Voss, which is no whiphid, also no saber feats really because.... its a spirit so lightsabers arent exactly its thing.

 

Nothing on Lord Dargh.

 

Finally on "I havent shown anything of k'kruhk" you need to go back to page 1. He fights better against Greivous then Shaak Ti does that shows Shaak Ti level skill. He fights dozens of One Sith as a Legacy man. And he is a friend of the IMPERIAL knights. To be noted the imperial knights like sith recognize strength. Also look at the video I posted shows his abilities as well. I have shown him to have power on par with Baras, while also having skills on par with Shaak Ti and a physique that allows him to match better against the Wrath then any opponent ever has.

 

 

K'kruhk uses the same form the Wrath uses and DO NOT bring up the increased run speed from game mechanics... i covered that a LONG time ago when the game launched SHIEN (not Djem So... the Wrath is not Credited with using that variant of Form V) did NOT have that movement speed increase it was added in because people whined about dealing with the ranged characters in the game. All characters have the same base run speed and GCD that is a game mechanic meant for PVP balance and as such is for game play purposes only, thus unusable for this debate. Further we have to not just look at his forms but what he chose against. While wearing HEAVY armor he choses NOT to use 2 sabers and acrobatic forms even though he is profficient with them opting for more efficient forms rather then high energy high movement forms showing that his movement is likely slightly encombered by the heavy armor. Also again if you look into the abilities he prefers while using Shii-cho (look at his "shii cho specialization") you will see he utilizes more force powers in that form then any other, regardless of wearing armor or not, this suggests that this form is not a form that he primarily uses every, but instead is a fall back. yes he is a master saber duelist but every Sith warrior (not wrath but warrior) is noted as being a "Master" of the same 5 forms he is a master of and they get dispatched left and right like hot cakes. You have to look at how the character utilizes the forms and not assume that he is like this character or that with every form. With Soresu he utilizes more physical strikes then any other form, showing that his preference is to use the form to defend himself as he closes in, if he cant close in it will be a very long drawn out fight for him here, as he cant get into position to take advantage of openings. Shien he uses heavy strikes with some saber property altering saber strikes, his application of this form seems the most "standard" of the group, and Shii-cho as I said he utilizes more force powers then any other time, showing that this is a fall back form and not one that he primarily uses.

 

I will link more about K'kruhk later, but suffice to say I am not saying OTHERS called him a high level master. I am calling him a high level master for the abilities he has displayed along his contemporaries fighting evenly with Quinlon Vos http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/14/147508/4316359-vos+vs+k'kruhk+%2363+(4).png and preforming the best against greivous among the likes of Shaak Ti and Mundi both master duelists in their own right and before his prime, before even the dark times.

 

 

K'kruhk during the legacy era was one of the only jedi to survive the Massacre on Ossus where even Kol Skywalker was killed.

Edited July 17, 2015 by tunewalker

[raandomname]

Those attacks are all waves, we have seen waves do that kind of damage if not more. Crushes dont move in that manner or act in that manner, and hand maneuvers dont look like that, there is no reason to think they are crushes.

The hand movements look pretty similar to Windu's from what I can tell. Also the area of effect is way too small for force waves.

[tunewalker]

The hand movements look pretty similar to Windu's from what I can tell. Also the area of effect is way too small for force waves.

 

A push is a wave based attack, when I say wave I mean that, and no they dont.

 

Windu closes his hand in a crushing motion, the others the hand is splayed wide open the entire time, showing signs of a push or wave rather then a TK levitation or crush based attack. (looking at dooku for example he doesnt jut his hand out to his opponent or splay it open, he has all but 2 fingers closed and moves it to the side the same way greivous's foot moves)

 

Still I think the ability to dodge either is based on the speed of the force attack, and Kyp has shown the ability to launch TK attacks at "missile speeds" while still retaining perfect control, Greivous has not shown missile level speeds, but I will get more into that with some of the fight analysis later.

Edited July 17, 2015 by tunewalker

[raandomname]

A push is a wave based attack, when I say wave I mean that, and no they dont.

 

Windu closes his hand in a crushing motion, the others the hand is splayed wide open the entire time, showing signs of a push or wave rather then a TK levitation or crush based attack. (looking at dooku for example he doesnt jut his hand out to his opponent or splay it open, he has all but 2 fingers closed and moves it to the side the same way greivous's foot moves)

 

Still I think the ability to dodge either is based on the speed of the force attack, and Kyp has shown the ability to launch TK attacks at "missile speeds" while still retaining perfect control, Greivous has not shown missile level speeds, but I will get more into that with some of the fight analysis later.

Obi-wan can dodge missiles and Grievous was too fast for Obi-wan to see.

[tunewalker]

Obi-wan can dodge missiles and Grievous was too fast for Obi-wan to see.

 

"greivous was to fast for obi-wan to see...."

 

 

right..... that's why Obi-wan fights 1 sword vs 4 is able to dodge Greivous's blows and slices off 2 of his hands.

 

 

Also for the whole "he is suffering from windu's grasp" at this point that isnt true he coughs occassionally during hte TCW series as well, and he loses a couple arms this shows that he is perfectly capable of being repaird, the fact that he almost never coughs through-out this whole scene and the fact that if you look at his chest plate it doesnt appear damaged shows that if he was damaged before he isnt at this point in time, and this isnt the first duel with kenobi any way. Also proof of Kenobi dodging missiles??? I know he used the force to repel them, but dodge them?

Edited July 17, 2015 by tunewalker

[tunewalker]

Ok now the Hypori battle.....

 

 

 

 

Lets start with the obvious...

 

Soon after, K'Kruhk was chosen to be part of a strike team on Hypori, led by Jedi Masters Ki-Adi-Mundi and Shaak Ti. The mission was a disaster from the start and turned into a Separatist trap. Orbital mines destroyed most of their fleet and the surviving troops and Jedi, including K'Kruhk, were marooned on the surface of Hypori, forced to make a desperate last stand against the droid armies.[9]

 

pulled from wookie. Hypori was a trap to begin with.

 

next look at the cloths of the Jedi and listen to some oftheir quotes and breathing.

 

Looking at them many are leaning up against a wall barely able to stand on their own, their cloths are dirty, torn and some even have blaster mark scoring on their cloths, showing that they are battered, beaten and bruised as well as exhausted from being constantly overwhelmed.

 

Physically these Jedi are broken, they are opperating on less then half their usual physical fighting strength as far as I can tell.

 

Mentally. "unstoppable, he is unstoppable" that is fear people, and honestly he is speaking for the whole group

"never have we been out maneuvered by droids" (surprise) "his strategy with out flaw" confirming the fear.

And just as Mundi rallies them his voice comes over loud and clear and once again they go from smiling to desperate... showing the intimidation. All 3 elements Dooku said Greivous needed to beat the best of the Jedi, and proving these Jedi are mentally broken, sure they dont go running out like morons but that isnt what is required for a mentally broken master, padawaan maybe but master no.

 

If you think Mundi isnt broken, check out the end of the battle. Mundi is one of the most calculating masters, but here he is screaming shoot him down ,shoot him down, we must pursue even though he is still out numbered, losing himself to desperation, and rash emotional action, and this is one of the Jedi's most calculating. He didnt break in the time of the fight he was broken long before it, he just now showed the signs of being broken. If you want proof of him being broken before that... look at the sweat, he is sweating bullets over there.. he is telling every one to be steady and remain calm, but as he does so he is gripped by fear. (2:30-2:39)

 

 

Next lets see the fight itself.

 

When he drops in on the group each one takes its time to attack him as they get into position not 1 attacks him from behind they all disenage as the others engage, he is never dealing with attacks from more then 1 maybe 2 angles at a time, while the jedi reposition and keep him occupied getting ready to attack him from all sides. The moment one jumps at him from behind while the other 2 are still enganged he immediately begins the helicopter. He then pushes Mundi out of hte rest of the group and engages him 1v1 while the others rush to try to get back into position, one by one they begin to get into position and he does a good job of fending them off as he still focuses his attention largely on Mundi, he is then forced to leave the group after he forces Mundi out of the fight, when he jumps back in the dust and the impact leaves K'kruhk the only one remaining standing. He then engages K'kruhk 1v1 in a short duel, where he (this is the trick pay attention) exposes his right hand to an attack by K'kruhk, and K'kruhk goes for it, Greivous drops his sword and shoots his arm straight in, causing K'kruhk to hit nothing but air off balancing him so that he can not respond in time to Grievous's left hand sword strike. This is a form of "trakatta technique" a technique not known to the Wrath. The next master engages him head on in the same angle the rocks have been thrown from and gets instantly wrecked by melee attacks followed immidiately by the master directly after wards (he has successfully turned this fight into a sequence of 1v1 duels against broken and tired Jedi masters) Shaak Ti and Mundi then engage him from both sides (2 angles not bad) in a brief duel, as Mundi closes in he immidiately hellicopters his arms again pushing the 2 masters back giving himself some breathing room to allow his reach to work to his advantage and simultaneously re-breaking any resolve the jedi may have gotten mid battle. they manage to close in again even during this and Greivous BFR's Mundi in the same manner Maul always did to obi-wan, with a swift kick.... then engages Shaak ti in a 1v1 duel over powering her with fast power blows disarming her, and that's basically the fight, every time he is surrounded he helicopters, all other times the opponent comes from the same direction and only with K'kruhk he uses a Trakatta style technique to take him down.

[tunewalker]

For greivous "not underestimating his opponent" from wolf.

 

 

 

"I wield great power jedi fool" only after losing an arm did he not underestimate Fisto

 

Same with kenobi, he does it to him constantly. And these are famous jedi names not some one he has never heard of like Kyp Durron. He has no reason not to be over confident.

 

On the whole "blasters are easier to block then swords... because they are smaller???" agian this is incorrect.

 

 

Pre-vizsla shows enough skill to block Maul with a sword, and in fact several Non-force sensitives have shown this ability, but to my knowledge no non- force sensitive has ever been able to block blaster bolts with a lightsaber save maybe greivous making wide arcs, they have never been any kind of accurate redirect, simply because a blaster is (in obi-wans words) "more random" and it takes less movement to make drastically different zoned attacks, the bolt is smaller as well meaning you have a much smaller margin of error. It would be the equivlent to a RL sword vs a gun.

 

Leia caught up to the rear of the group and launched herself into a whirling lightsaber attack, cloaking herself behind a basket of sapphire light and batting blaster bolts back toward their source.

 

Source: Legacy of the Force: Tempest

 

Leia here shows weaving a basket of energy, but unlike most baskets where the bolts just go randomly she is able to bat every shot back to their source. this tells me that she wasnt just weaving a basket of energy to just create a shield out of her lightsaber like some do in these situations, but that the bolts were moving slow enough to her that the basket was a result of precise blade positioning to bat all of them back to their source, this says she would have to have been massively faster then these bolts, and again Jaina and Kyp are both faster, and Kyp is noted as one of the NJO's greatest duelists.

 

 

 

 

Another speed feat for Leia to give an indication where kyp is at..

"Jaden, Avinoam, we need backup! Everyone else, get that crate fired up and out of here. We've got peepers across the way."

 

By the time he had finished, Leia was bounding up the stairs toward the pedbridge three levels above.

 

Source: Fate of the Jedi: Abyss

 

Han says a couple sentences and in those couple seconds it takes him to say that, leia has bound herself up 3 floors.

 

Spinning toward his off-hand as he'd done thousands of times, he lost sight of his opponent a fraction of a second early, betrayed by his missing eye. He felt Leia surge in the Force. He whirled his blade in a defensive, protective pattern, but it encountered nothing.

 

They came to a stop facing each other. Dei felt a curious sense of detachment.

 

Leia speed blitzes a Sith in a fraction of a second.

 

 

All of this in addition to Kit fisto, and Obi-wan who havent shown themselves to be any faster then Leia or Kyp being capable of handling his 4 hands AND cutting them off shows that Kyp should not have an issue doing it either. Especially with his own speed blitzing feet of blitzing a Phalanx of Vong with Precise attacks (not just speed blitzed but done so through their armor with precise blows, precise adaptable speed again gets Greivous every time).

 

 

For Jadus thing, the mission for Cypher nine if I recall correctly was to get Jadus into POSITION for the containment field. He had to delay him and then position him, so basically he had to trick Jadus into position.... which is exactly what my team fight thing is all about imagine that... we have precedence of it working on a character. And the fact that Cyhper nine survived at all is kind of astounding. Still Jadus has 0 saber feats, and 1 good Tk feat that wont matter here because he doesnt have anything to throw that his opponent cant handle, so its going to come down to saber, and she has shown incredible saber skill... and he hasnt shown any.

[tunewalker]

Also Labyrinth of Evil, and the Comic era are both technically from the time of OCW run, thus it is an OCW source and is as accurate as OCW is, just like the history those comics originally had for Ventress and the zombies that she raised and her Origins as a Ratattaki born and raised on Rattattak NOT Dathomir, she was not a Dathomirian in that run of the comics. RotS novel does not contradict in any way with TCW, nor is OCW more accurate with it RotS novel, or hte encyclopedia's, there is nothing from RotS or the Encyclopedia's that have shown the TCW greivous to be the inaccurate version. Obi-wan being the "best" for the job does not make him the "only one" for the job.

 

You need Kenobi level skill/power (Kyp and Leia both have this) with Kenobi level Adaptability (Kyp has faced all kinds of "unique" things through out his history) so with these in toe Kyp has all the tools he needs to defeat greivous alone, but again he doesnt have to fight alone, cus streen. Streen may not get the droid parts, but any plan is still a plan made by a biological brain not shielded by the force, thus streen will read it and Kyp will know it.

 

(also like other cyborgs lead him outside and use AE for lightning like shown here http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-4127360 and its GG since his systems short curcuit)

Edited July 17, 2015 by tunewalker

[tunewalker]

Ultimately we can not ignore OCW, or TCW or any other source for Greivous unless it directly contradicts with TCW or RotS, but when taking them into account we MUST take both the good and the bad, we cant just look at his victories with out looking at the circumstances of those victories, and we can not ignore his losses, if his losses had circumstances (like Wolf pointed out with the cockyness) then we need to note that as well, but we cant just pick and choose.

[tunewalker]

"Funny." He advanced toward Kyp in mock menace. "Is this every Master for himself?"

 

Kyp shrugged and ignited his own lightsaber. "Might as well."

 

Luke heard snap-hisses as the other Masters lit their weapons. This friendly exercise would be horribly dangerous to anyone but a Jedi Master, but all of those present were so in tune with the Force and one another that the odds of a mishap were, as usual, almost nil.

 

Noting that the masters in the NJO are in tune with each other and the force, as well as highly skilled. If you were not this, Luke didnt make you a master basically. So this speaks Volumes to Streen's abilities, even though we rarely see him in action as a Master.

 

Luke charged Kyp but then, well outside lightsaber strike range, skidded to an abrupt halt. Kyp's face had just enough time to register suspicion before Luke exerted himself through the Force, reaching upward to tree limbs that had grown out over the outpost. He yanked downward. A broad branch slapped down atop Kyp, bearing him to the landing pad surface and sending leaves swirling out all over the roof.

 

Kyp laughed and rolled free, coming up to his feet. "No fair."

 

"Tactical superiority is never fair.'"

 

"I mean, getting leaves and bugs in my hair."

 

Kyp laughing at this is showing the whole "typical" feeling he has for tactics like this. He expects people to try to take a tactical edge, and for him its considered 100% fair play, thus he is likely to do so himself, and in fact does so quite often.

 

Luke felt the approach of Cilghal from behind. He leapt up and backward, inverting as he flew, and blocked the Mon Cal Master's strike with his blade in passing. He landed behind her. A few meters away, Saba Sebatyne and Corran Horn dueled, each adopting a traditional, formalized lightsaber posture-Saba using a lightsaber in each hand, Corran with his own weapon adjusted to its second setting, its blade now three meters in length and a brilliant Purple instead of its usual silver. Octa Ramis, who had sup-plied Saba with her second weapon, was content to stand off to one side, using the Force to hurl stones, plucked from the ground far below, through the tumult of practicing Masters. Kyle Katarn stood near her, watching all the others, practicing ritualized sword forms and waiting for an opponent to come open.

 

Showing the NJO does in fact have the forms, though which form is attributed to which master is not given, they deffinately have them. Its probably not attributed both do to time lines and as you watch these duels you can see different masters using different forms or elements from different forms in their duels all over the place, showing that they all likely use personalized Hybrids of the seven forms, similar to the way vader or Luke fight... not surprising considering Luke is their master.

 

 

Kyp advanced against Luke again, striking at Luke's ankles while Cilghal engaged the Grand Master's blade. Luke danced over the low strike and put a foot into Cilghal's torso, more of a push than a kick, before landing again. The Mon Cal staggered back a few steps, offering a nod of appreciation.

 

Kyp threw a succession of fast blows at Luke's shoulders, occupying him while Cilghal recovered. "Actually, it's a plan for a mission against Jacen. A capture-or-neutralize, "he said, his lightsaber flashing at Luke.

 

"Neutralize." Luke frowned. He circled Kyp, trying to put him in the middle of their three-way exchange, but Cilghal paced him so that Luke remained in the center. "Meaning 'kill.' "

 

Kyp nodded, not repentant. "This isn't a mission of assassination, Luke. But if the capture isn't clean, if the choice is to run away and leave him in charge of the Alliance or finish him then and there ..."

 

This again shows how in Sync the NJO masters can be with Luke protecting his students. Kyp was aware he was going to do so, this for them is just "play time" and showing tactical awareness of using an enemy/ ally to his advantage.

 

"Yeah." Luke felt Cilghal's approach behind him. He bent over backward, his lightsaber hand coming down on the landing pad surface to hold his upper body clear of it, and Cilghal's lightsaber passed through where his waist would have been. Luke instantly straightened, catching her hilt with his free hand, and stepped away, her lightsaber now in his grip. He twirled one blade at each Master. "Go on."

 

With an exasperated sigh, Cilghal stepped back and exerted herself toward Kyle. The man's lightsaber leapt free from his grip and flew to Cilghal's. Kyle offered no resistance. Cilghal caught it out of the air, called "Thank you," and dashed toward Corran.

 

This is Luke just basically going.. ok Cilghal good try, I know you are trying to get your skills up, but honestly your just in the way right now go play some where else for now....

 

Kyp looked dubiously at Luke's twin weapons and fell into a defensive posture. "The team will consist of one or two Masters, three or four Jedi Knights, and a native guide. They'll approach the Senate Building through the undercity." As Luke neared and began throwing probing attacks in quick succession, Kyp deflected them close to his body with equal speed and minimal movement. "When Jacen enters or leaves the building, they spring the trap. Coma gas and shock nets as the first wave, the Jedi making their direct assault immediately afterward." He stopped to stare intently at Luke.

 

Kyp is capable of defending twin blades from Luke Skywalker using a definitive Soresu like set up, thinking he cant do the same to Greivous seems a little far fetched.

 

 

Luke felt the attack-the Force, propelling numerous small objects at him. He jumped back and brought up both lightsabers as a shower of old nuts and bolts came at him with missile speed. It was like defending himself against Yuuzhan Vong thud bugs for the first time in years, but the old skill was undiminished-he calculated which objects had a chance of hitting him and incinerated only them with his blades, letting the others fly harmlessly past.

 

The trouble was, the ones that flew past soon curved around for another attack.

 

Meanwhile, Kyp continued, "We have a shuttle or other enclosed vehicle land for a quick extraction. But the trick is, it's an empty droid vehicle. Our group, with Jacen, their captive, actually reenters the undercity through a ground-side maintenance access hatch modified to serve as an exit. While the shuttle makes its escape run and draws off pursuit, our group goes back the way it came to the true departure point."

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Nang_hul Thud bugs.....

 

 

This is basically the end of the fight, the rest is literally just banter... especially aimed toward Corran horn for his lack of TK ability... its that habit that I think is going to rear it's head against Greivous. He has been hit with all kinds of force attacks, especially levitation and crush based attacks...

 

I see no difference between this

(:20)

and

"It doesn't matter," Corran said. "This mission isn't authorized."

 

Kyp looked up. "I authorized it."

 

He flicked his wrist, and Corran went sailing across the hangar back toward Kenth and the other Jedi. It was a particularly insulting dismissal, since Corran could not respond in kind, having never been able to master the skill of Force telekinesis.

 

Its not like Corran has proven to be slow at all, or hasnt fought with saber against other force wielders before.

[raandomname]

Noting that the masters in the NJO are in tune with each other and the force, as well as highly skilled. If you were not this, Luke didnt make you a master basically. So this speaks Volumes to Streen's abilities, even though we rarely see him in action as a Master.

Lmfao. Guess who also has to be in tune with the force and highly skilled and whom we rarely see in action? perhaps members of the Dark Council or Jedi Masters during the SWTOR-era?

Kyp is capable of defending twin blades from Luke Skywalker using a definitive Soresu like set up, thinking he cant do the same to Greivous seems a little far fetched.

You sort of missed the important part, although you underlined it yourself: probing strikes. There is no indication in that quote that Kyp could block Luke's attacks if Luke went all out.

[raandomname]

Still I think the ability to dodge either is based on the speed of the force attack, and Kyp has shown the ability to launch TK attacks at "missile speeds" while still retaining perfect control, Greivous has not shown missile level speeds, but I will get more into that with some of the fight analysis later.

Honestly, I cant believe that I even have to argue this. We see Grievous dodge blasters bolts all the time and blaster bolts move faster then missiles. Hell, we even see Grievous dodge missiles on Hypori.

[tunewalker]

Lmfao. Guess who also has to be in tune with the force and highly skilled and whom we rarely see in action? perhaps members of the Dark Council or Jedi Masters during the SWTOR-era?

 

You sort of missed the important part, although you underlined it yourself: probing strikes. There is no indication in that quote that Kyp could block Luke's attacks if Luke went all out.

 

A probing strike is as it implies is a strike intended to test the weakness of an opponent to find an opening in their defenses. in a Serious battle a Probing strike is done so as to find a weak point with out leaving ones self open. It does not make it any less "serious" then other wise, but its already been noted that that entire fight BOTH of them are playing around. Kyp isnt trying that hard either. And the results of Luke's probing strike had Luke drop the second blade, basically going.... Duel wielding is not a tactically sound option against Kyp, because while it is a game, it was one were they werent holding THAT much back, look how Cihgal just got pushed out of Kyp's and Luke's duel.

 

 

 

For the first part they dont HAVE to be in tune with the EACH OTHER... which was the part that you missed, and you just got finished claiming that for a "jedi" they only need to be "wise" or "what have you" to be considered. Honestly for a Sith a strong power base can make you just as feared as strength in the force. And the difference between a Knight in luke's order and a Master are noted as being large enough that a GAME would be "highly dangerous" for anyone that wasnt a master. Showing that the masters themselves are not just a little above the knights, but far above. Age, and wisdom are not Luke's only criteria for being a high level master, if he considers you one of his best, it is your connection to the force, and skills with a blade that he is looking at. By making streen the leader of the Praxeum temporarily in 16 ABY he marked Streen as one of his best. That's all I am doing, is debunking the claim that for Jedi you dont need to be strong to be considered one of the finest of the order..... because in the NJO that's not true.

Edited July 17, 2015 by tunewalker

[Selenial]

Ok so guys, a quick word on corrections and arguments in general. I think at the moment what is considered a "correction" is up for debate, so I felt I needed to clarify it before we continue with this tournament. First however I'd refer you to the original rules:

 

"Note that as a strictly 1 v 1 phase between the two competitors, we’d ask you refrain from posting your own arguments until this stage is over – though making corrections/pointing out the facts is acceptable."

 

I think what needs to be looked at here is the fact this was supposed to be a one versus one stage. While yes you may correct people, you must always make sure you're not detracting from the fact it is a one versus one. I'm not saying any of you are going to far yet, but I've noticed the further we go in here, the more "detailed" these corrections are, culminating in a full blown argument from Wolf here. I'd also say that the amount of corrections you make should remain low, to make sure it doesn't become a second debater entering the tournament.

 

What's more is I think we need to tone down the hostility a bit here guys. As this round goes on you seem to have all been getting more hostile. Tune's arguments have been ridiculed at points, which isn't fair. What also isn't fair however is you taking debates so personally and becoming incredibly sarcastic and spiteful, Tunewalker, so tone that down as well.

 

Just a warning to you all, I've been too lenient. I will not be from now on.

[tunewalker]

Ok so guys, a quick word on corrections and arguments in general. I think at the moment what is considered a "correction" is up for debate, so I felt I needed to clarify it before we continue with this tournament. First however I'd refer you to the original rules:

 

"Note that as a strictly 1 v 1 phase between the two competitors, we’d ask you refrain from posting your own arguments until this stage is over – though making corrections/pointing out the facts is acceptable."

 

I think what needs to be looked at here is the fact this was supposed to be a one versus one stage. While yes you may correct people, you must always make sure you're not detracting from the fact it is a one versus one. I'm not saying any of you are going to far yet, but I've noticed the further we go in here, the more "detailed" these corrections are, culminating in a full blown argument from Wolf here. I'd also say that the amount of corrections you make should remain low, to make sure it doesn't become a second debater entering the tournament.

 

What's more is I think we need to tone down the hostility a bit here guys. As this round goes on you seem to have all been getting more hostile. Tune's arguments have been ridiculed at points, which isn't fair. What also isn't fair however is you taking debates so personally and becoming incredibly sarcastic and spiteful, Tunewalker, so tone that down as well.

 

Just a warning to you all, I've been too lenient. I will not be from now on.

 

Sorry will try to tone down my temper. on going battle against myself is on going. Sorry that the match you are arbitrating had the miss fortune of that temper showing its head again. Thank you for your patience, and I hope to have it under control in the future.

[Aurbere]

Just a warning to you all, I've been too lenient. I will not be from now on.

 

You heard the lady, kids.