tunewalker Posted July 24, 2015 Share Posted July 24, 2015 (edited) That's why you don't use just one ability, lol. he has 2, maybe 3... second verse same as the first. If you want I can go back to the Jadus vs Streen debate. First I will leave off accolades since you said "character to character" High magnitude AE vs High Magnitude TK I already showed they both come from the same sphere of influence AND I already showed that there is no reason to think TK is any more accurate a measure of power then AE is, as even within their own era's this has proven inadequeate for power measuring. So any argument that TK is some how a "superior" power is largely unfounded. The Exoticness of an ability does not change the power required for magnitude. High Magnetude TP vs High Magnitude TP Controlling thousands (as a Sith, no Jedi would dominate minds in such a manner, trick sure, but never dominate... that does not automatically make sith better then Jedi) vs Reading minds of millions while untrained. The fact that its untrained does demonstrate raw power, the fact that he became a Jedi master and learned to control it shows mastery and raw power, both are again equal. Again from the same Sphere. Moderate Teleport feat vs Moderate TK feats. again back the AE vs TK argument, there is really no reason to think one is really greater then the other. If you all wanted to swap the TK and AE ones we would still have a character who's "over all" abilities are showing to be equal. So Jadus shows more power in the basic TK, that hasnt proven to be an accurate measure of power within the OR let alone acrossed era's, that does not mean we disregard the power of the Exotic. I do not believe we should ever discount the power of the Basic or the Exotic on terms or magnitude OR precision. Especially with characters that are largely unexplored, but I said this already and everyone jumped down my throat saying I wasnt being "fair to Jadus". How so? he is a largely unexplored character, Streen is a Largely unexplored character. I was told not to look at era's but on a Character by Character basis and see what both accomplished... ok Did that. I was told you cant just look at one power because we have seen massive inaccuracies with 1 power.... fair enough, but you cant just look at 2 either since inaccuracies exist their, in fact I dont call 3 enough to get a full judge because I can just point to Corran Horn and then point to any other explored character in the NJO and only look at 3 abilities and we start getting all kinds of wonky predictions.... ESPECIALLY when there is some sort of emphasised bias on TK as an Alter feat over other Alter Feats, when TK has proven to be just as inaccurate a measuring stick as the rest. and when we have Movies, Books, Comics AND games all saying "size matters not, no different only different in your mind" for every character under the sun. (K'kruhk, Galen, Luke, Yoda, Dooku, Kyp.... so many more I am sure I could find if I really dug for it). all this suggests is the only TK barriers are mental not within the force itself, nor is it any way to regard their True power. Because of this there is no reason to think Jadus is any faster, any better with a sword or Control powers like Valor then Streen, which just makes him outclassed by Leia and Kyp. Which should NOT be a huge surprise,or ANY kind of blasphemy to any one since similar things have happened to people of his caliber against Revan and Vitiate within their OWN era's. If you want to claim to look at it character by character, then do so.... dont make false claims that 1 power is more suggestive then another with out any reason to back that up, dont assume Control skills based off Alter skills for 1 character and then not for another that shows similar magnitudes in Alter skills. Dont treat exotic, or Basic any differently, different powers are different there is no reason to think they are any more or less accurate though. Edited July 24, 2015 by tunewalker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raandomname Posted July 24, 2015 Share Posted July 24, 2015 Closing Argument: Grievous vs Kyp First of all, Ti doesnt seem like the person to get mentally scarred to me. On Coruscant she was willing to face Grievous and whatever he wanted to throw at her and faced and was gaining an advantage against a dozen Magna Guards. She wasnt even demotivated after the Great Jedi Purge and went on to tame the dark side nexus on Felucia and was still confident when engaging Galen Marek. And even if she was scarred, which I dont believe, the other Jedi would have at leat spoken up, if they thought that Ti was not acting rationally. They also were certainly not suprised by Grievous. They knew an attack was coming. That is the only reason that they were even there. As mentioned previously, Ti was probably not afraid and the others certainly were not. In general, I feel that you are underestimating the will power and mental strenght and resilliance of Jedi masters. Of course they are not infallable, but still breaking a Jedi master should really take more than putting them into a hopeless situation. Just look at TWC, the Jedi face hopeless situations all the time in that show and still they do not break, hell Obi-wan didnt even break in the face of what the Zygerrians did to him and stiil held on to his ideals. I see no reason why other Jedi masters should be any different. The Jedi were surrounded on Hypori, they were tired, they were demotivated, perhaps they were even desperate, but they were NOT broken, that is a large difference. And if Grievous could defeat FOUR masters and two knights, even if they wrre tired and demotivated, I still think that he should handle a single Jedi master, even if he is fresh and motivated. I believe that the reason that Grievous was so easily force crushed by Mace, was that he was expecting the famous swordsman to engage him in lightsaber combat and was caught of guard by his use of the force. Against an opponent whom he doesnt know, he will be prepared for everything. He also engaged Mace in Labyrinth of Evil and fought him evenly, although the terrain worked against him. In more even terrain Grievous may even have had an advantage. And if Grievous fought evenly or may even have had a slight edge against Mace, than he will eventually beat an opponent who is not quite as formidable a lightsaber duelist and who's fighting style is less exotic and unfamiliar. I also have my doubts about Kyp detecting Grievous. I am not sure how he does it, but Grievous has multiple times avoided detection from multiple Jedi, even multiple masters at once, even from Shaak Ti, who's telepathy was so strong that she turned around a planet-wide dark side nexus to the light side on Felucia. Due to this, I think that Grievous will be able to move largely undetected and catch Kyp of guard. Wrath vs K'kurhk Honestly there is not much to say here. Aside from picking apart the Wrath's opponents, I still see no evidence that K'kurhk would defeat any of the opponents that the Wrath faced, not to speak of the Wrath himself. K'kurhk is definetely a powerful Jedi Masters, but the Wrath has defeated numerous powerful Jedi Masters, I believe that this encounter will be no different. Leia vs Jadus Size may not matter, but only the strongest force users seem to be deeply in tune with the force enough to accomplish the most impressive feats and "lift the largest rocks". I also see no reason to believe that manipulating a black hole afaik used to stop missile sized onjects, requires as much energy as holding together a ship the size of a Harrower Class. I also dont see why "the remains" should just be one cable, because reasons. Yes the Death Star was destroyed due to a chain reaction, but it was a special case, and iirc only possible, because there was an error in the death star's construction due to sabotage. As for Tutaminis, there is no other way in which the part of the ship, that was incinerated, could have survived, because the ship was still intact, when the Agent boarded it. Streen: I also just wanted to say something about him. Yes, he can do many useful things, but he cannot do them all at once. It has been brought up multiple times that he would aid his allies in a multitude of ways, but he will still be able to only aid one ally at once. In fact, he could even damage his team mates. For example: say Streen is using his mind reading ability to assist Kyp in his fight against Grievous. As I mentioned previously, this should require lots of his concentration, due to the speed and unpredictability of Grievous' attacks and the fact that only part of Grievous brain is even readable to Streen. At the same time Jadus engages Leia. He realises that she can defend herself against his tk attacks and proceedes to force choke her, rushing to help Leia, Streen pushes air into Leia's lungs, but looses his focus on Grievous for a moment. Kyp, expecting intel from Streen, is caught of guard for a fraction of a second, giving Grievous a small edge. The Fight: For simplicity's sake Ill only address the scenario we have been discussing throughout the match. For all the reasons discussed previously, I give Grievous a slight edge over Kyp, but even if he cannot win, he will still hold him of for quite some time. As I said previously, I see no reason why the Wrath should be unable to defeat K'kurhk. Should Streen come to his aid, I am still convinced that the Wrath can win. Streen has no saber feats or accolades and the Wrath has repeatedly defeated powerful force users and the Wrath has also defeated master-and-padawan duos, so their good co-ordination will not save them. Jadus should at least be able to hold Leia of, barraging her with force attacks, using his teleportation to redeploy and absorbing her attacks with his Tutaminis. Without Streen's intel, Kyp is now at an disadvantage against Grievous and is eventually defeated. And Leia will obviously loose 3 v 1. Okay, we can move on now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted July 24, 2015 Share Posted July 24, 2015 Just wanted 1 correction on Streen. this is the final argument for you random so I am not going to go all hog wild and try to counter it, but I wanted something to be clear to every one. Streen does not concentrate to read some ones mind... he concentrates so that he WONT read their mind. he has no issue doing weather control and Mind reading at the same time, any more then he has doing Weather control and NOT reading some ones mind at the same time. His struggle was not with reading minds, but with stopping reading them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raandomname Posted July 25, 2015 Share Posted July 25, 2015 Just wanted 1 correction on Streen. this is the final argument for you random so I am not going to go all hog wild and try to counter it, but I wanted something to be clear to every one. Streen does not concentrate to read some ones mind... he concentrates so that he WONT read their mind. he has no issue doing weather control and Mind reading at the same time, any more then he has doing Weather control and NOT reading some ones mind at the same time. His struggle was not with reading minds, but with stopping reading them. Ill quickly clarify on this. I probably should have phrased it better, but what I mean is that it will take concentration to inform Kyp quickly enough of what Grievous is doing, due to the speed and unpredictability of Grievous' offense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted July 25, 2015 Share Posted July 25, 2015 (edited) Ill quickly clarify on this. I probably should have phrased it better, but what I mean is that it will take concentration to inform Kyp quickly enough of what Grievous is doing, due to the speed and unpredictability of Grievous' offense. Leia is doing that with the Force Meld, all the Jedi are linked with one another. that is done automatically. These are all things I covered. Streen isnt doing that, its done automatically by nature of the Meld. Edited July 25, 2015 by tunewalker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted July 25, 2015 Share Posted July 25, 2015 fi·nal adjective 1. coming at the end of a series. http://www.odieusement-belles.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/emma-watson-hermione-granger-thinking.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted July 25, 2015 Author Share Posted July 25, 2015 Ok, ladies and gentlemen, the time has come for Phase 2! To remind you all what this entails, here's the quote from the original description in the announcement thread: "The second stage commences when the Arbiter decides the debate has run its course, at this point spectators will be able and be encouraged to provide, if they so wish, a detailed analysis/personal verdict on who they think will win and why based on the arguments made. Note at this stage the debate is over, so no rebuttals." Note that your arguments are to be put forward in order to convince me why you're right. You're not posting them for the hell of it, there is a specific reason, and the more detailed you are, the more likely to listen to your votes I will be. I'm not simply going to side with whoever gains the most votes. With that said, here's some pointers that could help your vote make the biggest difference. Avoid bias: Make your arguments without personal opinion, based around fact. This includes all previous knowledge of characters. If you viewed Jadus as far greater than Leia, but Random failed to actually prove that in this debate, then make that fact known and afford the Jadus vs Leia battle to Silenceo. Don't make your vote a post about who you originally thought would win and who your favourite team is. Be detailed: The little victories count, and refer to them in your posts if you feel they deserve it. Don't simply say that Jadus beats Leia for example, tell me why, and why Random showed that. Avoid new arguments: I'm here to judge not just which team wins, but which debater showed why which team wins. If one of them has missed key information that would have helped them win, then the fact they've missed that is an unfortunate mistake on their part. By bringing up information that they have not, you're pointing out flaws in their arguments and areas where they have failed, not helping their team win. On the flip side, if you chose to bring such information up while criticising the person you feel has been defeated, feel free. Address both debaters: No debater here is bad. Neither have lost categorically or in every area of this debate. Each has strengths and flaws in their arguments. The best way to prove which debater won is to compare both of their pros and cons. You could also casts vote without even picking a side by simply pointing out pros and cons of each. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted July 25, 2015 Share Posted July 25, 2015 (edited) Avoid bias: Make your arguments without personal opinion, based around fact. This includes all previous knowledge of characters. If you viewed Jadus as far greater than Leia, but Random failed to actually prove that in this debate, then make that fact known and afford the Jadus vs Leia battle to Silenceo. Don't make your vote a post about who you originally thought would win and who your favourite team is. Wow, nice job, Sil! You weren't even in this match and you're getting credit for arguments. Edited July 25, 2015 by Aurbere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted July 25, 2015 Share Posted July 25, 2015 A few more beers and I should get drunk enough to read through this thread and make a vote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted July 25, 2015 Author Share Posted July 25, 2015 Wow, nice job, Sil! You weren't even in this match and you're getting credit for arguments. I'm just going to pretend I'm putting these in on purpose to make sure you're all keeping up. Yeh I'll do that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted July 25, 2015 Share Posted July 25, 2015 A few more beers and I should get drunk enough to read through this thread and make a vote. LOL I'm just going to pretend I'm putting these in on purpose to make sure you're all keeping up. Yeh I'll do that! But now I know, and everybody else does too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted July 25, 2015 Share Posted July 25, 2015 (edited) Reading this debate makes me wish we didn't exclude outside knowledge of the characters (IE what the voters know already). Not liking what I'm reading so far. Edited July 25, 2015 by Aurbere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted July 25, 2015 Share Posted July 25, 2015 Reading this debate makes me wish we didn't exclude outside knowledge of the characters (IE what the voters know already). Not liking what I'm reading so far. Reading this debate makes me wish I had more beer, maybe even vodka. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted July 25, 2015 Share Posted July 25, 2015 Reading this debate makes me wish I had more beer, maybe even vodka. Drink responsibly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silenceo Posted July 25, 2015 Share Posted July 25, 2015 Wow, nice job, Sil! You weren't even in this match and you're getting credit for arguments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted July 25, 2015 Share Posted July 25, 2015 Drink responsibly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted July 25, 2015 Share Posted July 25, 2015 Only at page 5. http://media.giphy.com/media/13zZ0FyrgNWwLu/giphy.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted July 25, 2015 Share Posted July 25, 2015 (edited) Mmmk. Sel, I have a question. After my vote, can I use my outside knowledge to say something in favor of Random's team? I am a bit miffed at the posts in this thread. Consider it a learning experience for all who read it. Only at page 5. http://media.giphy.com/media/13zZ0FyrgNWwLu/giphy.gif On page 15 tbh. Edited July 25, 2015 by Aurbere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted July 25, 2015 Share Posted July 25, 2015 On page 15 tbh. https://youtu.be/C-DeI3ohVbY?t=6m33s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted July 25, 2015 Share Posted July 25, 2015 https://youtu.be/C-DeI3ohVbY?t=6m33s Skimming ftw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaedusz Posted July 25, 2015 Share Posted July 25, 2015 (edited) These threads are awesome cus of the gifs and youtube links. More please. Edited July 25, 2015 by Kaedusz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted July 25, 2015 Author Share Posted July 25, 2015 Mmmk. Sel, I have a question. After my vote, can I use my outside knowledge to say something in favor of Random's team? I am a bit miffed at the posts in this thread. Consider it a learning experience for all who read it. Sure, go for it.... after I make the decision. Don't want your post influencing anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted July 25, 2015 Share Posted July 25, 2015 Sure, go for it.... after I make the decision. Don't want your post influencing anyone. Of course, I understand. I'll just post a vote first and then when you call it I'll do the thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted July 25, 2015 Author Share Posted July 25, 2015 (edited) Only at page 5. http://media.giphy.com/media/13zZ0FyrgNWwLu/giphy.gif Taking my role as mother seriously http://www.thedailyaztec.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/M-Scott3.gif Edited July 25, 2015 by Selenial Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted July 25, 2015 Share Posted July 25, 2015 Taking my role as mother seriously http://www.thedailyaztec.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/M-Scott3.gif Now, now, hon. It's not like you haven't gotten a little drunk every so often. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts