SWTOR Duelling Tournament - Heats/Round 2C: Team Beniboybling vs Team LadyKulvax

[Selenial]

Ok so getting back to the debate, here's my vote.... Well you'll get my vote at the end, first a small analysis of the debate as a whole:

 

Rayla:

 

You're quite a hyperbolic debater, if I'm honest. It's not a bad thing, but often you'll find that what you say can sound biased, even if you're right. When you exaggerate and are so fluid with your language, it's hard not to look at it and think "overreacting a bit there, aren't we?". Just something to be careful with, I guess. It didn't affect me too badly this time around.

 

The problem is that you'll find yourself looking biased when you don't directly quote text. For example:

Another neglected point is that Count Dooku has extensive experience dealing with Anakin and Obi-Wan, his Makashi is also perfectly suited to taking apart Form III: Soresu, his advantages in combat against them also do not end there as he typically had extensive preparation for each fight.

and

Anakin Skywalker is also undeniably the top duelist in this battle, his powers are beyond Dooku's and by extension Maul's, he has an unmatched ferocity that Maul has never faced. To Dooku, Anakin appeared as nothing more than an electric blue haze throughout the room, he couldn't properly percieve him, this is a feat that Darth Maul cannot surpass nor match.

 

These cases sit among many, but in my eyes, you needed to continue the line of thought much more than leave them there. For example, explain that Kenobi's Soresu is not offensive at all, so Dooku has no need to worry about Kenobi's dueling ability unless he is actually trying to take Kenobi out with the blade, not the force. You could also have gone into the fact that Dooku contending with them both doesn't mean he'd have an easy time with any two combatants. What he did against them was what he always does, survive, and exploit any opening. Against Kenobi and Skywalker he could only survive due to Kenobi's lack of a solid offense, and Anakin's style allowing him to be pushed back more. In a one versus one scenario that'd be when Dooku would have to re-engage, and we've seen already in the ROTS Novel that it doesn't go well.

 

I'd also suggest you actually use feats and quotes more in writing. When you say Anakin overwhelmed Dooku, support it with evidence. Your page 1 posts were basically mini respect threads, and no one can memorize them. Far more effective to post the quote and say what you want to say instead of hoping people go back to page 1 and try to verify if you're being hyperbolic or plainly true. And the fact of the matter is, Anakin is a far superior duelist to Dooku when he's at his peak, there's nothing hyperbolic about that.

 

Still, a fantastic performance all around.

 

Beni:

 

I thought your arguments were clear and concise, factual and well founded, but never finished. I noticed it in a few specific areas, obviously the ones you weren't as clear on. For example, the way you dealt with the exile was a back and forth of unrelated and unconnected arguments, that massively stood out among the perfections of your previous stances. Instead of using all your arguments in one go, you held back in each regard and never pushed them to the fullest extent, almost as if you were afraid of overextending your stance. Because of this, the arguments surrounding her appeared to be fragmented and almost desperate.

 

It's really difficult to actually narrow down to single cases as to where you fell short. It's a difficult thing to explain, I just often felt as if the only reason I agreed so much with your stances was outside knowledge that I had, that you had not posted. I couldn't shake that feeling for any of your posts bar the first few, honestly this thread turned from Beni having a huge advantage, to a very even debate.

 

It's because of that, I'm not actually happy casting a vote for anyone. Gun to my head, I'd pick Beni. But in terms of percentage victory in this debate, that'd literally be down to a 51/49 split. They both performed excellently, and I don't envy Aurbere for having to pick between the two.

[Aurbere]

Solid vote there, Sel. Not exactly what I expected or the usual vote, but an excellent analysis. I'll keep that all in mind.

[cs_zoltan]

Why am I the first voter every time?

 

 

Lightsaber combat

 

I give the edge to Rayla.

 

The best from both teams are obviously Dooku and Anakin. I'll give the slight edge here to Dooku, yes Anakin killed him etc etc, but that was fairly circumstantial. Moving on Maul vs Meetra, edge to Maul. They both mastered Juyo the "ultimate" form that requires high level mastery of other forms, yet Maul was one of the best user of the form, while also mastering other martial arts. Lastly Aryn vs Savage, obvious and substantial edge to Aryn. She evidently mastered Ataru, she was a jedi knight training her entire life, while Savage was a Sith for a span of few month, maybe a year.

 

I'd like to point out that these are not duels I'm expecting, just a general skill level. Also as you noticed I gave the edge to Beni's team twice, but still gave the ultimate edge to Rayla. Which means this is really, really, really Close.

 

 

Force abilities

 

I give the edge to Beni.

 

As a jedi team Rayla started with a handicap, most of their force use are restricted to passive boost and enhancements, with Force Pushes as the only offensive power. And neither of Rayla's combatant is known to abuse the force offensively.

In contrast to that Dooku uses lightning and pushes tactically, Maul and Savage incorporating TK in their lightsaber sequence and possesing greater raw power than any enemy bar Anakin (or maybe Meetra, her light side techniques are really potent).

 

 

Teamwork & Tactics

 

Reluctance vs familiarity.

 

Beni's team know each other, and hate each other. Would that stop them to work together? No. Could it lead to problems when you give a second thought to save someone life? Probably.

 

Rayla's team doesn't know each other, consequently they don't have any negative nor positive synergy.

 

Which one is better? I don't know, so no edge.

 

As for tactics I found Beni's argument to be more convincing. Dooku is a natural fencer, tactical minded, experienced duelist. If someone can manipulate ther battle here it's him. Also I won't hold the failed Force Meld against Rayla because they won't even use it to begin with. More on that later.

 

Edge to Beni.

 

 

Handling the environment

 

I'll keep this short. Dooku's sokan + Aryn's Ataru shifts the balance toward Beni's team.

 

Edge to Beni.

 

 

Miscellaneous

 

Force Meld.

 

Boy will I be glad when I won't see this wrongly used again. I'll start by providing with a quote:

"Experience is not always the most important aspect of combat," C'baoth pointed out. "Timing and coordination are also key, and no amount of experience can give ordinary gunners the edge that we already possess. Tell me, Master Skywalker, has Master Kenobi ever spoken to you of the Jedi meld?"

"I don't think so," Anakin said. "What does it do?"

"It permits a group of Jedi to connect their minds so closely as to act as a single person," C'baoth told him.

"It can also be very dangerous," Obi-Wan warned. "It takes a Jedi Master of great power and depth in the Force to create such a state without killing or destroying the minds of everyone involved."

"A Jedi Master such as myself," C'baoth said calmly. "I've successfully performed such a meld on four separate occasions."

Obi-Wan stared at him. "Four?"

"Three were training exercises, of course," C'baoth conceded. "But the fourth was under serious field conditions, with five other Jedi in the meld. As you can see, we came through it successfully."

"That was with six of you," Obi-Wan pointed out. "There are nineteen of us aboard Outbound Flight."

"Twenty, including Master Skywalker," C'baoth corrected, laying a hand on Anakin's shoulder. "Certainly we'll need to proceed with caution. I'll be discussing the procedure with each of my Jedi, and we'll be carrying out a number of practice sessions before we leave Republic space. Still, once we're all comfortable with the technique, we'll become an awesome fighting force indeed. With Jedi working as one at the weapons systems of all six Dreadnaughts, Outbound Flight will be virtually unbeatable."

 

• It requires at least 3 jedi who have used Meld before.
  
• It requires at least 1 jedi who have led a Meld before.
  

 

As far as I know, no team has such. StarSquirrel has only 2 jedi, Tune has only 2 jedi who used it before (even though he also has 2 who led it before), and Rayla has only 1 jedi who used it before. So please don't try use Meld again.

 

 

 

Conclusion

 

As I said above I find it most likely that Dooku can manipulate this duel to his own end. So I give my opinion on how I see it would go down.

Rayla brought up that her combatants can switch forms to confuse Dooku, like Anakin and Kenobi did. I don't think it would work out though. Aryn seems to only mastered Ataru, so what form would she switch to? Meetra mastered Shii-Cho, Makashi, Soresu, Shien, Niman, and Juyo. Shii-cho against Makashi would be suicide, using an inferior Makashi would also be counter productive, using Ataru in confined space is a bad idea (not to mention Dooku's edge over it), Shien is weak against one opponent, Niman without it's highest degree is not very effective. That leaves Juyo and Soresu, while it's only my theory I don't think Meetra would use Juyo. It kinda clashes with her mentality and all that.

Aryn's Ataru I think would fail against Dooku under minutes. From then on it's Dooku's Makashi vs Meetra's Soresu. Meetra is nowhere the Soresu user Kenobi is so I think Dooku could overcome her.

 

At the other duel I think Savage's inferior skill to Anakin, and the fact that he doesn't outclass him in the force would be his undoing. He'd probably die later than Aryn though. So only Maul vs Anakin remains. By then I think Dooku will finish with Meetra before Anakin could kill Maul, resulting in a 2 on 1. Sooner or later Anakin is dead.

 

Because of that I vote Beni.

 

For Rayla my only suggestion to drop the mini respect thread at the start, otherwise nice debate.

Edited July 29, 2015 by cs_zoltan

[cs_zoltan]

Why am I the first voter every time?

 

You ruined it Sel

[Beniboybling]

Rayla's team doesn't know each other, consequently they don't have any negative nor positive synergy.

 

Which one is better? I don't know, so no edge.

http://cdn2.thegloss.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Princess-Leia-Carrie-Fisher-GIF.gif

[Selenial]

Solid vote there, Sel. Not exactly what I expected or the usual vote, but an excellent analysis. I'll keep that all in mind.

 

*shrug*

 

You're stealing my advice section, I stole yours, kinda I don't like the breakdown into the sections anyway (no offence to people who use it). I don't know why, I guess it's because it takes part of the surprise out of the verdict. Either way I didn't particularly want to comment on the outcome of the debate itself beyond my vote, just more comment on the debaters...

[Beniboybling]

I found advice, and your advice, more helpful than breakdowns at least for the voting stage.

[cs_zoltan]

I don't like the breakdown into the sections anyway (no offence to people who use it). I don't know why, I guess it's because it takes part of the surprise out of the verdict.

 

But I stole that from you

[tunewalker]

I am largely in aggreance with CS Zoltan, though I think I missed the part about Force Melds and obviously dont entirely agree with his assessment there, but that's a time for another debate.

 

 

While I am giving the edge to Beni, I will say 1 thing I personally would like to see from both debaters that I didnt feel I saw, is how your team would handle hte "unadvantageous" situation the other presented. Personally I find any time a scenario is given and a counter scenario is given it is best to treat both scenarios as equally possible scenarios. Yes tell me why yours is the more likely, but should it fall apart I still want to know how your team will handle the other. (you guys may have done this and i just missed it... sorry if I did). In other words, dont just create plausible deniability as to why the opponents scenario is not likely, but also try to convince me it doesnt matter, because you can win or lose a fight if the plausable deniability isnt enough.

Edited July 29, 2015 by tunewalker

[Selenial]

But I stole that from you

 

I don't believe I ever voted with that

 

But yeh, it's more of a recent thing really. Like I grew to dislike it while writing one exactly like that for this match

[StarSquirrel]

Hmm,

 

Well I honestly don't feel like being a broken record here but I probably will a little bit. I'll try to keep it pretty brief.

 

Characters:

 

- Anakin > Dooku

- Maul > Meetra

- Aryn > Savage

 

As far as skills/importance I agree with cs_zoltan's assessment except to say I think the fact Anakin killed Dooku and the other good points Rayla brought up swung the favor back to Anakin. However, Dooku brings other things to the table that I left for the next category.

 

Advantage Rayla

 

 

Team:

 

Dooku brings more to the table. Beni's focus on Dooku's tactical skills early on, while it faded towards the middle and into the end, bring up a great point and he backed it up beautifully. While I was shaky on the "team of sith" thing I don't feel Rayla pushed it hard enough and certainly showed no greater reason why the Jedi would fare better.

 

Ultimately I feel Beni got an advantage in how the teams work as a unit.

 

 

 

Debate Style

 

Honestly, in this competition I have to say this category is perhaps the one I feel matters more. We all have a pretty good view on all these characters, but to see them through other's eyes and have to make decisions based on the limited info they provide is tough.

 

I agree with Sel, Rayla you need to provide sources. Sometimes several times before you can start referencing them in passing. Honestly, Beni seemed to be more organized and came with an unholy amount of data and sources. So much so I feel like he nearly drowned Rayla early on.

 

Comprehensively I feel Beni debated this fight more cohesively, but Rayla is one of the most tenacious people I think I've ever met. Good matchup, kinda sad to have it so early...

 

 

TL : DR

Beni gets my vote, last category is perhaps the more critical one here.

Edited July 29, 2015 by StarSquirrel

[cs_zoltan]

Bummer, I wanted to make my little scenario for this match for funsies, but forgot in the end. Read my new edited Conclusion ^^

[cs_zoltan]

I don't believe I ever voted with that

 

No, but that's how you did the verdict in my debate, so I picked it up. I like the clear cut style of it.

[Aurbere]

*shrug*

 

You're stealing my advice section, I stole yours, kinda I don't like the breakdown into the sections anyway (no offence to people who use it). I don't know why, I guess it's because it takes part of the surprise out of the verdict. Either way I didn't particularly want to comment on the outcome of the debate itself beyond my vote, just more comment on the debaters...

 

That's fair, Sel. And yeah, I kinda did steal it. But I had to, lol

[ShadowMudkip]

Alright, I'll try and not do it the "boring" way that Sel dislikes so much. Anyways here goes.

 

Rayla

 

Honestly, what Sel said is perhaps most on point with what I was thinking. Many of your arguments could have been made more powerful by a few choice feats or quotes thrown in when needed. I couldn't also agree more about the mini-respect thread at the beginning. Truthfully, I had done the same thing with mine, but realized it was a mistake after I had posted it. I suggest using a very brief TL;DR at the beginning, kind of like an overview of abilities, lightsaber forms, and other skills. Then, if any of them are contested, you can bring in mentioned quotes and feats to back them up. That being said, I believe that you did a superb job with your arguments, and certainly forced Beni to pull all of his tricks against you. Try to focus your arguments to be as simple as possible, while also saying as little as possible. You are quite an elegant debater, and as such, some arguments can get lost in your grandeur.

 

 

Beni

 

Once again, you did a fantastic job delivering your arguments. Your arguments were clear, concise, and to the point, making them easier to understand. You did a very good job convincing me that Force Meld, wouldn't work, so points for you in that category. You also did a great job on showing why your team wouldn't fall apart. That being said, you kind of dropped off in the middle of the debate, allowing Rayla to play major catch up to you. There are a few things that lost you some points for me. First, you failed to convince me that Savage is fast enough to keep up with Aryn. You made the point of saying that Savage was able to cause Plo Koon to withdraw due to pulling off his mask, but honestly, this is something many others could do with a simple force pull, so I don't see that as too impressive. Overall, you did a fantastic job, and this was perhaps my favorite duel of this round.

 

 

Verdict

 

I am pretty much in agreement with Sel, this was too close to call for me. In fact, I have flip flopped my decision many times upon reviewing the arguments. If I were to choose one, though, I would have to give this to Beni, but only by a very slim margin. Overall, I felt that Rayla's team was actually stronger. However, she failed in certain arguments that could have turned this around. Beni gets my vote only because his actual debating was better.

 

That being said, Rayla, I believe that out of everyone, you perhaps have the best chance of winning the losers bracket. Overall, this was a great debate, and was really really close. Good job to both of you.

[LadyKulvax]

My point of listing feats out at the start was to avoid Beni using the classic trap of forcing me to argue for feats themselves and their ability to stack up, which would have drastically decreased my ability to actually argue how my team would win, even then I did post a lot of quotes throughout this which supported my arguments but i guess they got lost in the pages. That all seems to have back-fired though, because apparently my posts were too hyperbolic despite the support being right at the start.

[Beniboybling]

So....

[Aurbere]

Well, if everyone's done voting, I'll do the thing later today.

[cs_zoltan]

Well, if everyone's done voting, I'll do the thing later today.

 

[Beniboybling]

Well, if everyone's done voting, I'll do the thing later today.

Define "later today".

[cs_zoltan]

Later today = soon™.

[S_W_LeGenD]

Team LadyKulvax is superior, all aspects considered. However, member Beniboybling have advantage in debating skills. Edited August 1, 2015 by S_W_LeGenD

[Aurbere]

'K, folks, decision folks. Nothing to fancy, since I don't have loads of time right now.

 

Lightsaber skill

 

 

I would have to give the edge to Beni here. While Rayla did very well showcasing the skills of her team members, she didn't apply it to the debate nearly as well as Beni did. He adequately showed not only the skills of his team members but also how they apply to the debate in exhaustive detail. Rayla did well in this regard, but not to the same extent.

 

Additionally, Rayla made the mistake of letting Beni control the flow of the match and deciding the match-ups, which gave him an advantage as Beni was allowed to abuse Dooku's skills against obviously lesser opponents.

 

Edge to Beni.

 

 

Force Abilities

 

 

A Minor edge to Beni here. As should be natural, the Sith team is more inclined to use their powers, but Rayla did a very good job showing that her team can use their own powers as well as withstand the powers of Beni's team to a point. So a small edge to Beni based on that.

 

 

Teamwork and Tactics

 

 

I would say Rayla gets the teamwork edge, slightly. The case was made that Beni's team could not function well, but he did a good job showing that they wouldn't outright attempt to murder each other. That said, they wouldn't go out of their way to help each other out. They simply won't function as well as Rayla's team.

 

In the tactics section, Beni's team gets the edge. As I mentioned previously, Beni was able to set the terms for the match, and the tactics his team would employ (Those argued for Count Dooku) are superior to any that Rayla's could employ based upon the terms Beni set.

 

So even split in this section.

 

 

Handling the Environment

 

 

Neither side really gets an edge here. Both Beni and Rayla made arguments regarding how their team would use the environment, but it wasn't entirely substantial enough to get an advantage over the other.

 

 

Conclusion and Verdict

 

 

This was an excruciatingly difficult match to pick a winner for. Both sides were debated for extremely well and it really came down to the wire. However, I must give the victory to Team Beniboybling. He was simply a slightly better debater on all fronts. That said, Rayla did excellent and certainly made what looked like a solid victory for Beni an extremely close fight as the match went on.

 

Good luck in the Runner's Up Bracket, Rayla!

 

 

Advice

 

 

There really isn't much that needs to be said here. You both handled yourselves excellently in this match and made it quite the spectacle. If anything, I'd really only give advice to Rayla and say that it would be best to supplement your posts with quotes, rather than posting feats in the beginning in mini-respect threads. It's not really my cup of tea, and the ability to support your arguments with evidence makes them all the more compelling.

 

Additionally, regarding scenarios and match-ups, remember to consider your own ideas and those of your opponent. That goes for you both. Don't solely engage in a single scenario. Consider your own scenario and the scenario posed by the opponent, and then debate both.

 

That's my advice, really.

 

[Beniboybling]

Well done Rayla, great opening round and you certainly made me work for it.