Emperor's Wrath???

[jauvtus]

You were never above the council, Darth Marr makes this clear.

 

He just states you have free reign and the council will not interfere your actions until you oppose their intentions.

 

That's just the healthy Sith rivalry, mate. You never fully submit to your superior (unless you are weak).

[BrianDavion]

He just states you have free reign and the council will not interfere your actions until you oppose their intentions.

 

That's just the healthy Sith rivalry, mate. You never fully submit to your superior (unless you are weak).

 

more to the point it's empty posturing, and Marr warning the Wrath not to go too far and make an enemy out of the entire dark council

[Codedrago]

He just states you have free reign and the council will not interfere your actions until you oppose their intentions.

 

That's just the healthy Sith rivalry, mate. You never fully submit to your superior (unless you are weak).

 

It isn't Sith Rivalry, it's Marr telling the Wrath to not let this new position go to his head. The Wrath is on equal level to the Council at best.

[AstyanDelacroix]

I blame the midnight search and you all for finding this thread and staying up way longer than I should have to read it through. And now I have Opinions Post to share...

While I agree with all of those mentioning that Wrath's standing really took a hit with Emperor gone, I'm a bit surprised at the claims that they have no real political standing in the Empire without him. Please bear with me as I go through some of the points (and try to make them as non-headcanon influences as possible)

 

1) Wrath is the Sith equivalent of nobility

 

Chapter I - Korriban - "Allegiance" quest

"I am heir to a great Sith bloodline - how dare you even ask such a question of me?"

"I do what the Emperor commands me to - your special heritage does not place you above suspicion"

 

The Empire is, story-wise, is quite big on their lineages, and passing the power / positions through the lineages. While I admit that there is little reference to it further on in the Warrior story - the end-all seems to be that Warrior gets defined by their "Wrath" title alone - the assumption can be made that they, at the very least, have the same standing in the Empire that any non-denounced noble does. That alone grants them some measure of influence, which can be grown further on in the story depending on your choices

Cases in point (hereditary nature of Imperial Sith Lines) :

 

Chapter I - Dromund Kaas - "Laying Waste" Warrior quest line

Lord Grathan is Lord of the house Grathan, his son is expected to inherit his position... Eventually (whether you help him along or not - that's your choice)

In the meantime Lady Grathan plots to be the "Regent" till her son is "ready" to take the mantle of Next Lord Grathan

Chapter I - Dromund Kaas - "In the Halls of Traitors" Inquisitor quest line

Lord Aloysius Kallig regrets failing to secure his bloodline's standing, which led his descendents to end up in slavery

Chapter I - Korriban, Dromund Kaas - starting with "Darth Zhorrid Arrives" Agent quest line

Darth Zhorrid - daughter of Darth Jadus - inherits his position in Sith hierarchy, and even his place on the Dark Council"

Companion dialogue - Talos Drellik

"These are the genealogies of all the great Sith of his days. Look—here is your ancestor, Lord Kallig"

 

I'd be happy to hear your opinions on this point - as I said, there is little class-line evidence to support the above. But Wrath certainly was brought up among a higher class than most other Imperial Characters (e.g. Wrath's manner of speech is made out to be quite formal and eloquent in most situations, including those commonly seen as "relaxed")

 

2) Sith "Right of Conquest" tradition

 

Sith are also big on the "Right of Conquest" - "to the victor, go the spoils". Just as it sounds like, when it comes to direct confrontation between two (or more) sith, the victor often gains the loser's power base to do with as they please. This is especially evident in the Sith Inquisitors' class line, but is also skimmed over in the Warrior line

 

 

Chapter I - Dromund Kaas - "Giant Killer" Inquisitor class line

With a little sweet-talking and assassination to help along, Darth Zash takes Darth Skotia's place on Dark council

Chapter I - Nar Shaddaa - Entire Nar Shaddaa Inquisitor class line

This one might be somewhat debatable, but after doing away with Lord Paladius you, in a sense, inherit his entire cult

Chapter I - Dromund Kaas - After Darth Zash's ritual fails, Inquisitor class line

You inherit Zash's entire power base

Chapter II - Dromund Kaas - "Power Play" Warrior class line

After Sith Warrior, with assistance of Lord Draahg, kills their grandmaster Darth Vengean, Darth Baras inherits his place on the Dark Council

 

 

Which brings me to the following point - had Warrior not been selected as "Emperor's Wrath" at the beginning of Chapter III, exactly how different would their situation be from the Inquisitor's Chapter III finale? In the end, both executed a Dark Council member, witnessed by other Council members.

True, the SI won Kaggath (and thus had the right to absorb Thanaton's properties, along with the military assets) - but Warrior was succeeding their master (and as per Warrior Ch II, it appears to have the same result). To conclude, had it not been for being chosen as Wrath, Warrior had the right to succeed Baras on the Council, which is something I don't think would just be forgotten (especially if Warrior inherits Baras's power base - which is something that is sadly glossed over in the class line)

 

Now unto planet/choice specific moments... In which, personally, I think firm Darkside Wrath stands to loose much more than Neutral or Light Wrath

Please pardon if I headcanon a bit in this part - I'll try to mention it where relevant

 

3) Potential Allies

 

 

Chapter I - Korriban - "A New Master" Warrior class line

If playing neutral or light side, you can opt to keep Tremel alive. While it has no direct influence on most of the game, one can assume that Tremel would keep himself... Useful. And, considering the man had been an Overseer at Korriban for some time, that usefulness might quite well include information of those sith who had successfully graduated said Academy. Preferred capabilities included (personal headcanon alert... My Warrior is quite into information gathering/trade)

Chapter I - Nar Shaddaa - "To Kill a Sith Lord" Warrior Class line

You can opt to keep Lord Rathari alive and make him your underling. Considering the time Rathari spent on Nar Shaddaa and the influence he presumably had on the planet, having him as your underling would add at least some of it to your power base. Granted, we don't know if he remains loyal post Ch III, so there's that

Chapter I - Tattoine - "Guru in the Dunes" Warrior Class line

Leaving Master Yonlach and his apprentice alive avails you to a rather delightful connection to the Republic, in one Jedi Master who is eternally confused by your behaviour

Chapter III - Belsavis - from "Locate the Enemy" Warrior Class line and till end of Belsavis class arc

If you opt to play it Neutral or Light and keep Timms alive, you get to have a sassy Jedi acquaintance who would reach out to you to... Complain about Jedi Council. All the more interesting if you keep Jaesa Light side (which I prefer - I like my apprentices sane, thank you) and send Nomen Karr back to Jedi (which serves to confuse Jedi even more. I love it)

So that's two for two potentials - with one duo providing info and underworld connections on the Imperials side; and two who could serve as a way out of Empire is things turn sour (e.g. "Chapter II - Power Play" or "Chapter II - Declaration of War" - when you start to clock onto the fact you might be made obsolete soon)

And last, but not the least...

Chapter III - Corellia - "Protect Vowrawn" Warrior Class line

Now, this is heavily influenced by my perception of their interactions (as well as SoR class side quest), but Vowrawn seems to end up being quite found of the Wrath. Which might as well be a play - he is, after all, considered to be the most "politically savvy" of the Council. However, you do end up protecting him, and (if chosen) gifting him with quite the information fount in Colonel Senks. This, at least, buys you enough brownie points for the Ch III end support

 

 

So... With Emperor gone, Wrath isn't quite as up as they used to be, but personally I'd consider them a sort of "Field Councilperson" - equal but detached from the general Dark Council. Free to do as they please, so long they don't stomp all over other's plans (at which point they have to negotiate, negotiate, and negotiate some more till all parties are satisfied)

 

Pardon the longs post...

[SteveTheCynic]

Which brings me to the following point - had Warrior not been selected as "Emperor's Wrath" at the beginning of Chapter III, exactly how different would their situation be from the Inquisitor's Chapter III finale? In the end, both executed a Dark Council member, witnessed by other Council members.

How different? Er, quite literally "dead different", as it might be expressed in British English.

 

If the Warrior hadn't been selected as the Wrath at that point (technically in the gap between the end of Chapter 2(1) and the beginning of Chapter 3, I think), the non-selection would have been because of / the cause of his death.

 

That is, either because the character had died in the explosion *or* because the character had failed to reach the camp in time and was thereafter spotted somewhere and marked for death. Either way, the character would not have lived long enough to reach the end of Chapter 3.

 

(1) Pre-KotFE chapters are, in-game, written with Arabic numerals (1, 2, 3, 4=Makeb, 5=SoR), while KotFE/ET chapters are written with Roman numerals.

[AstyanDelacroix]

How different? Er, quite literally "dead different", as it might be expressed in British English.

 

If the Warrior hadn't been selected as the Wrath at that point (technically in the gap between the end of Chapter 2(1) and the beginning of Chapter 3, I think), the non-selection would have been because of / the cause of his death.

 

That is, either because the character had died in the explosion *or* because the character had failed to reach the camp in time and was thereafter spotted somewhere and marked for death. Either way, the character would not have lived long enough to reach the end of Chapter 3.

 

(1) Pre-KotFE chapters are, in-game, written with Arabic numerals (1, 2, 3, 4=Makeb, 5=SoR), while KotFE/ET chapters are written with Roman numerals.

 

Not quite the point I was looking to make (though I love how your nickname works with your reply. Quite... Cynical, of you)

What I meant, by "not holding the title of the Wrath" - is what would have been the title Warrior would have left the council chamber with (and, before you refer to the "dead" status from your reply - let's assume they got to the Council Chamber alive and well)

I find it interesting due to the fact "Wrath" is a title that supersedes any other. The rest, presumably, being no longer important per warrior class story from that point on

[SteveTheCynic]

Not quite the point I was looking to make (though I love how your nickname works with your reply. Quite... Cynical, of you)

What I meant, by "not holding the title of the Wrath" - is what would have been the title Warrior would have left the council chamber with (and, before you refer to the "dead" status from your reply - let's assume they got to the Council Chamber alive and well)

I find it interesting due to the fact "Wrath" is a title that supersedes any other. The rest, presumably, being no longer important per warrior class story from that point on

OK, so if we assume that the Hand doesn't find you, but you evade any assassins that Baras sends and go around roughly the same story, with information about Darth E on Belsavis coming from somewhere else, and some other reason to go to Voss, and, likewise, information about the Sith being on Corellia and the interactions with Darth V inspired by something... (I suppose, in theory at least, it could be possible that the Hand found you and supplied you with the information, but without promoting you to Wrath...)

 

Well, if you're not the Wrath, why exactly would the Dark Council even listen to you when you arrive in the chamber? You'd be basically *nobody*, little more than a rebellious apprentice. As it is, you have to justify a apparently extravagant claim ("I am the Emperor's Wrath!") but at least you have Darth V's backing in that. Darth V would end up looking significantly foolish if he is backing an *apprentice*, even one who has been promoted to "Lord", rather than someone who has been promoted to "Personal Emissary and Enforcer of the Emperor, answerable only to him".

 

So, overall, I think there would have to be some equivalent power transition that you'd have to go through in order to have sufficient credibility at that point. The Inquisitor has an advantage in the equivalent moment because although she(1) is almost a nobody, she is a nobody that showed sufficient power in the publicly-declared Kaggath to force Thanaton to tear up his precious traditions and flee. And that, of course, returns to the basic question: what would that "equivalent power transition" be? Obviously not The Wrath, since the assumption underlying the discussion is "what if the Warrior was not raised to the status of 'Emperor's Wrath'?".

 

I have to say that I don't have a good answer. You aren't Darth Somebody, even though in theory Darth V could bestow that title on you, but I don't think it would be enough to resolve that credibility gap. I don't have a clear enough grasp on Sith Empire political manoeuvrings to suggest an alternative, unfortunately.

 

(1) I think of the Inquisitor as "she" because I have yet to drag a male Inquisitor through the whole class story.