Watchman / Annihilation Rotation

[oofalong]

Well the fillers are priority based...

 

actually I still think Battering Assault | Zealous Strike on CD is best. It ensures 50% uptime on our 2-piece bonus, and it does the most damage of our resource builders.

[Ardarell_Solo]

actually I still think Battering Assault | Zealous Strike on CD is best. It ensures 50% uptime on our 2-piece bonus, and it does the most damage of our resource builders.

 

Imo Master Strike / Ravage on CD beats that

[Kaos_KidSWTOR]

So, could you feasably pull any extra DPS from Clipping MS/Ravage? I know from experience it's easy to do as a Tank Jugg (I clip at the 0.4 mark on the timer, which is pretty consistent at my ~60 ms latency) and without alacrity it's pretty easy with Rage and Fury. But would Watchman/Anni pull any extra DPS if you clipped?

[oofalong]

Imo Master Strike / Ravage on CD beats that

 

Fair point, it may. I guess I meant among your resource builders I think Battering Assault | Zealous Strike is your priority even if you have 7 or 8 resource as it does more damage than your other resource builders.

[Ardarell_Solo]

So, could you feasably pull any extra DPS from Clipping MS/Ravage? I know from experience it's easy to do as a Tank Jugg (I clip at the 0.4 mark on the timer, which is pretty consistent at my ~60 ms latency) and without alacrity it's pretty easy with Rage and Fury. But would Watchman/Anni pull any extra DPS if you clipped?

 

Yes it is: You get max DPS out of the current build by keeping up Dots seamlessly. The rotation needed for that does not have 2 consecutive GCDs open for Master Strike. Trying to still cast a full Master Strike means delaying a dot. Even if you chose to delay the weakest one, like I explained in my OP, you lose DPS (about 100). So you only use Master Strike's first GCD and then go about your Dot rotation. I can't even begin to describe how outright boring to play that is!

[Ardarell_Solo]

Fair point, it may. I guess I meant among your resource builders I think Battering Assault | Zealous Strike is your priority even if you have 7 or 8 resource as it does more damage than your other resource builders.

 

Either way I will test that, too. You've proven me wrong too many times for me to not parse out everything you say :-)

[KaiserTNT]

Well...rotation is garbage, but at least it looks like we have the top parsing spec (provided we can stay on target), so that's something I guess. (I'm assuming you are still using 192 MH for this parse)

 

I wish they would go back to 2.10, but, based on the feedback in this forum, so does every experienced Mara/Sent. By now, Bioware certainly knows that's what everyone wants, so I'm guessing there is some internal pressure preventing them from acting. Maybe some QA, combat engine change, or development tools designed to save cost that won't allow a dynamic spec like 2.10 Marauder? If there isn't some huge cost for them associated with rolling back to 2.10, then they are just trolling us. Either way, it would be nice for them to let us in on why they can't or won't revert.

Edited June 1, 2015 by KaiserTNT

[zannne]

Is it still best to hit Berserk/Zen before the 2 dots? Was working on the original rotation in the post, before Ardarell posted the consistent 5k post, and was having trouble mixing in the Berserk. Running full 192 unassembled gear, and before 3.2.1, was getting about 4600 without adrenals. Now I'm still working on the rotation, but was able to stay at about 4400-4500 mid fight, but once the priority system was fully kicked in, I finished at like 4268. So I need to keep working on the rotation. But my main question is the best time to hit berserk.

[theblackjon]

Is it still best to hit Berserk/Zen before the 2 dots? Was working on the original rotation in the post, before Ardarell posted the consistent 5k post, and was having trouble mixing in the Berserk. Running full 192 unassembled gear, and before 3.2.1, was getting about 4600 without adrenals. Now I'm still working on the rotation, but was able to stay at about 4400-4500 mid fight, but once the priority system was fully kicked in, I finished at like 4268. So I need to keep working on the rotation. But my main question is the best time to hit berserk.

 

I'm having the most success just waiting until I have 3 stack DS on target. Rupture eating your stacks is bad, extending DS 2 stack by a tick using Rend is good. I get lazy with rupture application when berserk is within ~3 GCDs. I tried to do it here. Not my best, but not my worst, still messing around with filler placement.

[Aetrus]

El'ethon, in your original post you said you were using a 192 mh and reusable adrenal. Your 195 second parse, is it true of that one as well?

 

(BTW, I don't speak German but translating the Parsely page is hilarious.)

[TACeMossie]

So after hours of testing I have come to a conclusion I don't like at all: The best rotation is indeed the static one with Cauterize in the middle like Oofalong (we all shall bow to him - yet again :-) said.

 

It gets similar results as the one I posted in the first post here, but it's more reliable and takes less resources. But above all it's more mobile, since it will clip Master Strike every time.

 

I'm getting 5050+ constantly, current best ist 5163

 

And compared to what I described it's dead simple.

 

OPENER (like above, but shorter:)

 

Force Leap + Overload Saber

Zealous Strike

 

Merciless Slash

Force Melt + Zen + Adrenal + Valorous Call + Inspiration

Cauterize

Master Strike

Double Saber Throw (if 5+ Focus after Master Strike) / Strike (if less)

Cauterize + Overload Saber

Force Leap

 

Merciless Slash

Zealous Strike

Cauterize

Force Melt

filler (Double Saber Throw if not used before)

filler

 

 

ROTATION:

 

Merciless (+ Overload Saber every other block)

filler

Cauterize

filler

 

Priorities for filler:

 

 

• Force Melt (in the GCD the Dot falls off, so either right before Merciless or right after every Merciless other time)
  
• Master Strike (only use the first GCD of it. Try using it on Cooldown!)
  
• Zealous Strike (unless you would focus cap)
  
• Force Leap (unless you would focus cap)
  
• Double Saber Throw (if you're in danger of losing the proc, it moves above Force Leap in priority)
  
• Dispatch
  
• Slash (you won't really be doing that)
  
• Strike
  

 

The trick is to watch your focus bar, so you don't cap with your big focus builder, but also know when you'll need a lot of focus and filler skills like DST or Master Strike won't let you use focus buildes. Also watch out for Overload Saber in that regard.

 

The downside of it: That one is plain boring and clipping Master Strike just feels awful. But no doubt about it, this IS indeed the best rotation and doing anything more complicated is just plain nonsens - ESPECIALLY in a boss encounter.

 

Man, this just killed a lot of the enthusiasm I had for the current build.

 

Suggestion: If the rotation I listed in my first post is what the build was aiming for, either Master Strike damage needs to be buffed or, preferably, Cauterize needs to be nerfed and the lost DPS put into Merciless. This way it would make sense to shift Cauterize around without becoming to dependent on that channeled ability we don't want to rely on as melee DPS. Cancelling the signature Knight ability - Master Strike - halfway through the channel is very bad design, give me the shivers, really!!!

 

I DID SOMETHING RIGHT FOR ONCE!

 

Anyway, if you're a total noob like me and you can't get your mind around how El'ethon got this done, have another alternative, weaker, easier rotation. Note that by my basic maths, this is about 3% lower in terms of DPS than what El'ethon pulled off, though I didn't account for increased uptime in the set bonus when I did the maths because everything gets complicated when you do that:

 

1. Use the opener provided

2. When comboing Merciless with Overload, use overload slightly after Merciless, as this way you can do the combo with 6 focus instead of needing 7

3. Have a 30 second block! (Hidden in the spoiler block)

 

 

MERCILESS

LEAP

CAUTERIZE

MELT

MERCILESS

ZEALOUS

CAUTERIZE

TST

MERCILESS

STRIKE

CAUTERIZE

LEAP

MERCILESS

MELT

CAUTERIZE

ZEALOUS

MERCILESS

CAUTERIZE

MASTER STRIKE (FULL CHANNEL!)

 

 

The 30 second block has another advantage - you never have to clip the master strike short.

Now while you can replace the strike with a slash or dispatch, I haven't got the timing right personally yet or the specifics or the balls to pull it off just yet.

In an AoE rotation, swap the strike with Merciless, and all other instances of Merciless with Force Sweep

 

So where is the damage loss coming from? Whereas El'ethon uses master strike every ~18 seconds for a half tick and this is a full master strike every 30 seconds (effectively a half-master strike every 15 seconds), He uses Twin Saber Throw every ~22.5 seconds, whereas my weaker rotation uses it every ~30 seconds. And that's where the damage loss comes in. Plus my rotation generates a little more rage rotationally than his, but doesn't really take advantage of it. (if I had the resources to replace every strike with a slash, that would result in ~1.8% more DPS, which means it would be behind El'ethon's rotation by ~1.2%)

 

SOLUTION

 

Revert master strike to pre-3.0 style where it has a 30 second CD

Edited June 2, 2015 by TACeMossie

[LtBombshell]

Still unlikely to go back to Annihilation. I just don't get the rotation- it's too complicated and long for me.

 

Good work though, figuring this all out. Waiting for the guide on Dulfy to be updated.

[Stippling]

So after hours of testing I have come to a conclusion I don't like at all: The best rotation is indeed the static one with Cauterize in the middle like Oofalong (we all shall bow to him - yet again :-) said.

 

*snip*

 

 

Very cool, was trying something similar but hadn't quite had the time to resolve some of the issues you've resolved with this rotation. Played around with it a bit. If work/real life ever get off my *** I might actually get to get the hang of it.

 

Short term it feels really fast paced but pretty scripted, almost moreso than 3.0 Anni. At least that script was a bit longer. Having fun relearning it though.

[Ardarell_Solo]

El'ethon, in your original post you said you were using a 192 mh and reusable adrenal. Your 195 second parse, is it true of that one as well?

 

(BTW, I don't speak German but translating the Parsely page is hilarious.)

 

Sry, I should have mentioned I got a 204 hilt on Sunday (a tank one though, but the increase in Force power is still there). It's a little hard to tell, since by that time I had still been working out rotations, so I can't compare precisely. But as with all dual wielding classes the increase is less substantial than say on my Sage, where I saw something like a 150ish increase, whereas on my dual wielding Gunslinger it was only about 70ish. Both had gotten dps mainhands, so I could also use Mod and enhancement. I think on El'ethon I'm seeing an increase of about 60 dps, judging from parses that had identical critical damage before and after getting the MH...

[Aetrus]

Sry, I should have mentioned I got a 204 hilt on Sunday (a tank one though, but the increase in Force power is still there). It's a little hard to tell, since by that time I had still been working out rotations, so I can't compare precisely. But as with all dual wielding classes the increase is less substantial than say on my Sage, where I saw something like a 150ish increase, whereas on my dual wielding Gunslinger it was only about 70ish. Both had gotten dps mainhands, so I could also use Mod and enhancement. I think on El'ethon I'm seeing an increase of about 60 dps, judging from parses that had identical critical damage before and after getting the MH...

 

Yeah, definitely noticeable on a Sage. I was doing 4700 with a 192, and now I have the 2nd highest sorc/sage parse on Parsely (...I was #1 for all of 12 minutes) with that 204 upgrade. My guildie was really impressed with your/Oofalong's rotation, because he's doing about 5050 top with the 204 MH and a less optimal rotation.

[TACeMossie]

Yeah, definitely noticeable on a Sage. I was doing 4700 with a 192, and now I have the 2nd highest sorc/sage parse on Parsely (...I was #1 for all of 12 minutes) with that 204 upgrade. My guildie was really impressed with your/Oofalong's rotation, because he's doing about 5050 top with the 204 MH and a less optimal rotation.

 

I wish it was noticable on my vanguard - Plasmatech went up because it was buffed, and 3.2 brought some input latency that means I'm doing exactly the same with my 204 mainhand as I did with the 192 mainhand (it should have gone from ~4.8 average to ~5k average)

 

I could definitely see it being incredibly good for a Marksman Sniper though - Considering they deal pretty much no tech damage and they have all their weapon damage tied to the mainhand.

[Magnapaneti]

New rotation works pretty well , getting 4.8-9 in full 192 with 198 offhand and implants, that ravage clipping is crap anyway ...

[madraruaso]

So you still have 250 crit and do you use any alacrity ?

[Ardarell_Solo]

So you still have 250 crit and do you use any alacrity ?

 

Yeah 252 Crit and 1 Alacrity Enhancement.

[madraruaso]

Yeah 252 Crit and 1 Alacrity Enhancement.

 

So if i count right 1 Implantat and one enhancement 198 with crit?

[Ardarell_Solo]

One Enhancement (198), one modification (198) and two crystals :-)

[Ardarell_Solo]

Man, this is driving me nuts! Only now I compared DPS/activation and GCD for Master Strike clipped and full Master Strike: It's basically the same, saying first two hits are as strong as the last one.

 

Now with Dot durations as they are, it is clear, that a rotation with full Dot uptime will NOT have room for two consecutive GCDs. So this has been designed to rip Master Strike in half from the start. I can't believe it.

 

I've been working my a** off to make a rotation work that has full Master Strikes in it and delays Cauterize as little as possible. I can get close to the dps of simple rotation, but I can't beat it. Plus the complex rotation is a lot more difficult to play and there's zero reward for it.

 

So from now on we'll be going

 

Merciless

Something

Cauterize

Something

 

until we fall asleep, with "Something" being ripped Master Strike on Cooldown. This is sooooooo bad!!!

 

Ceterum Censeo ... give us back 2.10. Watchman.

 

If you can't do that (go figure!) at least nerf Cauterize or buff Master Strike so it's actually worth the effort to find a place for our signature Knight ability! And while you're at it, reduce ICD of resource generation from critical hits on burning targets from 3 secs to 2 secs!

 

That would at least make for a demanding and fun rotation with a lot of action in it. Current rotation is a bad joke like this!!!!

[TACeMossie]

Man, this is driving me nuts! Only now I compared DPS/activation and GCD for Master Strike clipped and full Master Strike: It's basically the same, saying first two hits are as strong as the last one.

 

Now with Dot durations as they are, it is clear, that a rotation with full Dot uptime will NOT have room for two consecutive GCDs. So this has been designed to rip Master Strike in half from the start. I can't believe it.

 

I've been working my a** off to make a rotation work that has full Master Strikes in it and delays Cauterize as little as possible. I can get close to the dps of simple rotation, but I can't beat it. Plus the complex rotation is a lot more difficult to play and there's zero reward for it.

 

So from now on we'll be going

 

Merciless

Something

Cauterize

Something

 

until we fall asleep, with "Something" being ripped Master Strike on Cooldown. This is sooooooo bad!!!

 

Ceterum Censeo ... give us back 2.10. Watchman.

 

If you can't do that (go figure!) at least nerf Cauterize or buff Master Strike so it's actually worth the effort to find a place for our signature Knight ability! And while you're at it, reduce ICD of resource generation from critical hits on burning targets from 3 secs to 2 secs!

 

That would at least make for a demanding and fun rotation with a lot of action in it. Current rotation is a bad joke like this!!!!

 

SOLUTION TO DO THE 2.10 ROTATION WITH THE SPEC IN ITS CURRENT STATE, WHILE KEEPING THE OTHER DISCIPLINES IN LINE WITH WHAT THEY SHOULD BE DOING

 

Step 1. Master Strike CD to 30 seconds. Damage increased by ~25%

 

Step 2. Combat gets a 3 second CD reduction, Focus/Concentration gets a 12 second CD reduction through the tree. This ensures Combat gets a Master Strike (Zen boosted) under every second Precision, and Focus/Rage still gets it every 18 seconds. Plus all Knight disciplines besides watchman are currently sort-of underperforming, and I doubt watchman even avoided that. Also nerf the talent in Vigilance/Vengeance that boosts master strikes damage (as that was buffed from 10% to 20% in 3.0 to make up for the weaker, lower cooldown master strike of 3.0)

 

Step 3. Dispatch CD reduced to 6 seconds. Efficient Strikes in Combat is changed to be a 1 focus refund instead of a 1 focus reduction, and Dispatch is added to it.

 

Step 4. Mind sear is redesigned: Increases the duration of Cauterize by 4 seconds (2 extra ticks). In addition, Master Strike and Dispatch have a 90% chance and Slash and Cyclone Slash have a 60% chance to grant Mind Sear, which causes your next Cauterize to deal the remaining damage of the previous cauterize if refreshed early. This can only be granted every 6 seconds. (similar effect already exists with the Jedi Sage on the Seer tree with Renewal at level 56)

 

Bonus points: Force Sweep builds stacks of Accelerating Victory for AoE rotations to have extra resources to work with when swapping Merciless Slash for Force Sweep, and including Force Sweep in the 90% chance for Mind Sear. Also bonus points for swapping the assailable debuff from Merciless Slash to Cauterize.

 

Why move Master Strike to every 30 seconds? Cause I was able to formulate a 30 second rotation that has full master strike channels, but trying to make it shorter results in resource management issues and not enough GCDs. The 30 second master strike with more power behind it would be a great fix for that issue, and the altered cauterize and mind sear procs would be a great way to get around the issue of occasionally having to use Cauterize somewhere else in the rotation (as now, if the proc is utilized alongside it, you can delay it assuming every Merciless gets procs and there will only be a minor DPS loss early on that is reconciled if Cauterize is pushed earlier again)

Edited June 3, 2015 by TACeMossie

[Ardarell_Solo]

SOLUTION TO DO THE 2.10 ROTATION WITH THE SPEC IN ITS CURRENT STATE, WHILE KEEPING THE OTHER DISCIPLINES IN LINE WITH WHAT THEY SHOULD BE DOING

 

Step 1. Master Strike CD to 30 seconds. Damage increased by ~25%

 

Step 2. Combat gets a 3 second CD reduction, Focus/Concentration gets an 18 second CD reduction through the tree. This ensures Combat gets a Master Strike (Zen boosted) under every second Precision, and Focus/Rage still gets it every 18 seconds. Plus all Knight disciplines besides watchman are currently sort-of underperforming, and I doubt watchman even avoided that.

 

Step 3. Dispatch CD reduced to 6 seconds. Efficient Strikes in Combat is changed to be a 1 focus refund instead of a 1 focus reduction, and Dispatch is added to it.

 

Step 4. Mind sear is redesigned: Increases the duration of Cauterize by 4 seconds (2 extra ticks). In addition, Master Strike and Dispatch have a 90% chance and Slash and Cyclone Slash have a 60% chance to grant Mind Sear, which causes your next Cauterize to deal the remaining damage of the previous cauterize if refreshed early. This can only be granted every 6 seconds. (similar effect already exists with the Jedi Sage on the Seer tree with Renewal at level 56)

 

Bonus points: Force Sweep builds stacks of Accelerating Victory for AoE rotations to have extra resources to work with when swapping Merciless Slash for Force Sweep, and including Force Sweep in the 90% chance for Mind Sear. Also bonus points for swapping the assailable debuff from Merciless Slash to Cauterize.

 

Why move Master Strike to every 30 seconds? Cause I was able to formulate a 30 second rotation that has full master strike channels, but trying to make it shorter results in resource management issues and not enough GCDs. The 30 second master strike with more power behind it would be a great fix for that issue, and the altered cauterize and mind sear procs would be a great way to get around the issue of occasionally having to use Cauterize somewhere else in the rotation (as now, if the proc is utilized alongside it, you can delay it assuming every Merciless gets procs and there will only be a minor DPS loss early on that is reconciled if Cauterize is pushed earlier again)

 

There's no need to fiddle with the established interplay of Merciless and Cauterize. It was as simple as it was brilliant and elegant.

 

3.0. has shown in other Disciplines how new abilities can be included in rotations without completely breaking them. If you insist on that stupid long dot, tie it to something that's already been part of the 2.X. rotation, I don't care where. But we NEED the Cooldown resetting mechanic on Cauterize from Merciless & Co. if Cauterize is on 6 seconds. If you don't have to work for one of the core abilities with 6s Cooldown to actually HAVE that 6s cooldown, it will always be boring to play.

 

I can even live with that stupid 18s CD on Master Strike if we're given the resources to include it and higher proc chances on Cauterize so the Master Strike block doesn't destroy dot uptime too often.

Edited June 3, 2015 by Ardarell_Solo

[TACeMossie]

There's no need to fiddle with the established interplay of Merciless and Cauterize. It was as simple as it was brilliant and elegant.

 

3.0. has shown in other Disciplines how new abilities can be included in rotations without completely breaking them. If you insist on that stupid long dot, tie it to something that's already been part of the 2.X. rotation, I don't care where. But we NEED the Cooldown resetting mechanic on Cauterize from Merciless & Co. if Cauterize is on 6 seconds. If you don't have to work for one of the core abilities with 6s Cooldown to actually HAVE that 6s cooldown, it will always be boring to play.

 

But its a 6 second DoT, which means if you have to delay it then problems arise because you lose DPS by pushing it back again (hence why I'd love to be a slightly longer DoT and give a proc that rewards you for clipping it every 6 seconds, similar to the sage HoT post-56 in seer tree)

 

Oh well. It would still be a case of 'Work to have the ability used properly'. If you use Cauterize early (without the proc), you may as well have slashed.

 

As for the disciplines that got new abilities to play with the rotations:

 

I can't speak about most of them, though almost no specs actually had a situation like watchman. The closest ones I can think of are Assault Specialist, and pre-3.0-Assault-Specialist-now-Tactics.

 

Both of these specs had incredibly tight rotations with no room for extra moves. However, both of these specs made it fine into post-3.0. How?

 

COMMANDOS got an extra 1 GCD between its hard hitters. In addition, the RNG was removed, allowing the rotation to loosen up a little more for what was between the procs, though the addition of a ton of extra fillers kind of counteracted this benefit (as it went from having 4 possible options for its fillers to having 7)

 

VANGUARDS had the RNG removed, and one of its typical fillers was changed to being refreshed rotationally. This resulted in freeing up the fillers from 0 every infinite seconds, to having just over 50% of its CDs as filler options.

 

So what happened with watchman? In its current state... They added an extra move to an already tight rotation, on top of reducing the Cooldown and Damage of one of the hard hitters - effectively removing all the CDs that you had and more.

 

If they were to alter it like the 2 above, you'd either end up with:

 

7.5 second cycles. Something I could get behind, because it would work, and i've done the maths behind it, and its a great idea, but as far as you are concerned its too late for the devs to follow through with this (I disagree though)

 

OR

 

Completely removed RNG, with procs still being there for the cooldown reset (just it being 100%). Considering this means that the RNG resources would go and the RNG on cauterize would go, I don't think its something you are after.

 

Alternatively, we can go with plan C, which is what I proposed above. The rotation would still work similarly to pre-3.0, where you have a cauterize proc every 6 seconds, the resources to utilize it, and the ability to have a full master strike channel without feeling bad about yourself afterwards. The TST proc would have to go though to ensure the rotation is within DPS guidelines, but lets be honest, if you could delay Cauterize every so often then followup with an early clip without losing DPS, you'd jump at the chance so long as there was a proc associated with it.

 

The rotation would typically end up in blocks of

 

MERCILESS -> CAUTERIZE -> FILLER -> FILLER

 

unless Zealous or Melt is coming off cooldown in which case it would become

 

MERCILESS -> ZEALOUS -> CAUTERIZE -> FILLER

or

MERCILESS -> MELT -> CAUTERIZE -> FILLER

 

Which is much closer to the pre-3.0 rotation you're after. Of course, pre-3.0 didn't have to worry about zealous or melt on cooldown...

Edited June 3, 2015 by TACeMossie