Is It Time For A New Class? (Video)

[gothshark]

I love the 'never gonna happen why talk about it' crowd, I bet you guys make friends everywhere you go because you say such interesting things.

 

No, it's because the class design paradigm of the game at launch covers all possible gameplay styles.

 

I'll copy my post on reddit about this.

 

One major problem with this issue. Currently we have 8 effective classes with 24 play styles. 4 that use melee weapons, 4 that use ranged weapons. If you look at the functionality of each of these 8 classes you will see very little overlap, and almost all the bases covered.

Warrior/Knight: Melee- DPS, Tanking

Consular/Inquisitor: Melee, Caster, Stealth- DPS, Tanking, Healing

Trooper/Bounty Hunter: Ranged- DPS, Tank, Heal

Agent/Smuggler: Ranged, Stealth- DPS, Heal

If you think of the game purely from the Mechanics there is no room for a new class. Flavor wise, having new ways of doing things would be nice, but I think maybe a 3rd advanced class per class would work better. ie, Jedi with a blaster, Bounty Hunter with a melee weapon. These are things we see in our companions, and having a third advanced class per base class could add new function. The addition of new classes would cause too much conflict with current classes.

To use WOW as an Example, They launched with 9 classes.

Warrior: Melee-Tank,DPS

Paladin: Melee- Tank, Heal, DPS

Hunter: Ranged Pets- DPS

Shamen: Melee, Caster - DPS, Heal

Rogue: Stealth - DPS

Druid: Melee, Caster, Stealth - DPS, Tank, Heal

Priest: Caster - Heal, DPS

Warlock: Caster Pets - DPS

Mage: Caster - DPS

They added

Death Knight: Melee Pets - DPS, Tank

Monk: Melee - Tank, DPS, Heal

With their design they started with a lot of overlap, and focused more on feel and look than function (ie though the years non-tanking classes have had short times where they could tank, ie Shamen, hunters, and Warlocks)

With SWTOR they did a good job of keeping classes from overlap, and to create a framework which allows for all play styles. Granted, it would be nice to have force using ranged, and non-force using melee. But as it is these are flavors not function. As such, I would rather see new advanced classes giving new flavors to old classes.

ie

Warrior/knight - Healer (paladin advanced class)

Consular/Inquisitor: Ranged off hand (think Ezra), blaster mixed with force and saber deference.

Trooper/Bounty Hunter: Melee, everyone has a melee companion that is this already.

Agent/Smuggler: (other idea not yet seen)

It would still be a pain to balance but they wouldn't have to spend a huge budget making level 1-50 on both sides, and balancing 2 advanced classes with 6 play styles. Oh and would it be force using or non-force using?

Adding new classes in the format we have requires a huge budget and very little reward for the company.

[Darth-Obvious]

One way to get around the whole "having to create new cutscenes and voice acting from 1-cap" would be to make a new class something that any existing max level class can spec into. You would lose all your old skills and gain a new set of abilities in a quest chain on a new planet or area specifically designed for the new class. This is basically what Death Knights were in WoW. You create 1 new area to tell the story of the new class then after that you can dump them into the general game world with everyone else. It is worth mentioning that this has been done before and worked well. Can Bioware execute as well as Blizzard? That is really the question, i think they can it is a matter of are they willing to dedicate the resources to do so.

 

Story-wise I think you would have to come up with something better than amnesia. Anyway, making it so a new class is only available for max level characters eliminates the need to redo everything.

 

Do I think its a good idea, I don;t know. I am always in favor of games trying new things though.

 

The problem with that is that the new class would have no new content to play through unlike the Death Knight in WoW.

 

Everyone knows how much work and costs will be to create new class or just add new class-specific content. But if the game is still running and repeating "2015 will be great year to SWTOR", it means they are having enough revenue of profits to do something GOOD to the game.

 

I don't know... months ago I was saying the game was dead, then I figured out that only PvP servers were really dead, all PvE and RP one's still have plenty amount of active players. But, considering that swtor is based on voice-action cut-scenes story content, if we can't really dream or expect a continuation to class-specific story or new class added, but only global minor expansions/updates... where the money we are giving them are going?

 

This game is successful as is to EA. For instance if EA is only giving the Bioware Austin team an annual budget of 10 million (or whatever) to work with they're never going to increase that budget because EA knows that's all it takes to keep it successful.

[branmakmuffin]

Negatory.

[gothshark]

You cannot compare WoW's classes to SWTOR's classes.

In WoW, it is only one location (if even that), and some balancing stuff.

In SWTOR, it is much more massive undertaking in addition to that, having to write entire 3 arc story, full set of new companions, add individual story locations, weave it into the existing story, etc...

 

And I highly doubt it would bring more players. Most people who will get drawn to this game will want to play Jedi or Sith anyway, so Imp Trooper or SIS Agent are really not in demand.

 

What could possibly happen is adding new Advanced class, that would give a new thing to mess up the existing balance, but that is probably it.

 

This is the only thing I can see working, as there are a couple of missing flavors to classes, ie the melee bounty hunter/trooper. We have several NPC/Companion specs that are not used by players, which could be added for new and fresh play styles, but there is no need for new classes.

 

Things I would like to see:

Knight/Warrior paladin Advanced Class (ie healer)

Consular Blaster Jedi Advanced Class (ie Luke & Ezra)

Trooper/Bounty Hunter Melee Advanced Class (ie 50% of the companions)

Smuggler/Agent...um pure melee? ugg that one would be tricky.

[gothshark]

How about some actual, like, typed-out words instead of another rickroll?

 

Sorry, but if you just say, "watch this video", I must assume it's a rickroll. Some words I can see before trying to watch the video will serve to dissipate this suspicion. You don't have to provide a transcript, but an executive summary is essential.

 

naa he posted the same thing on Reddit. It's a boring video using stuff from the character creator while he talks in metronome about they did it in WOW and other MMOs, so they should do it in SWTOR.

[CaptV]

To be honest the biggest problem is the personal story.

 

Its an extremely expensive job to hire 2 voice actors to do an entire cast of dialogue all the way from 1 to level cap and continue to hire them to make that profit not to mention every single companion the player would be partied with.

 

Its... budget, that would ultimately be the problem and I think as much as id love it, I dont think it'll happen.

 

As to what kind of class choices you have, there are a few but frankly I feel theres only one left that actually suits a starwars "trope" as it were.

 

The Kyle Katarn approach aka: Exiled Jedi, possibly a neutral character that can be played by both factions and has to decide which to join by their level 10 prologue ending.

[WaffleQwop]

Funding is not an issue. This game is making a lot of money, Bioware just isn't currently in the mood for adding things to the game? I'd love a neutral role style class. I was thinking a hybrid style class. A new breed/species from an unknown planet. By level 10, they must choose who to fight for (imp/pub). They can wield lightsabers, shoot guns, use staffs, etc. They are the ultimate class, with a spec for DPS (ranged), DPS (melee) and Heals.

 

That's just my little idea.

[Monumenta]

No, it's because the class design paradigm of the game at launch covers all possible gameplay styles. .

 

you seem to be missing the point of just 'talking' about something whether its possible or not or whether this company will choose to do something or not.

 

also I reject the notion that a game company that makes mmos wont sooner or later create a play style that doesnt exist yet, but have fun living in the status quo with all the rest of the no-it-all never-gonna-happens

[annabethchase]

I could see a new class, but not new personal stories. So perhaps something that picks up at endgame only.

[annabethchase]

No, it's because the class design paradigm of the game at launch covers all possible gameplay styles.

 

I'll copy my post on reddit about this.

 

What do you mean all playstyles? Have you not played many mmo's? We are missing pet classes & enhancement classes. Necromancers, creature handlers, beastmasters, bards, summoners, are examples from various mmos.

[gothshark]

you seem to be missing the point of just 'talking' about something whether its possible or not or whether this company will choose to do something or not.

 

also I reject the notion that a game company that makes mmos wont sooner or later create a play style that doesnt exist yet, but have fun living in the status quo with all the rest of the no-it-all never-gonna-happens

 

In games where the classes are looser, and not so distinct. I agree Warcraft will at least add one more class, and any game where the classes are more fluid anytime they can think of a new feel they could add a class.

 

Star Wars is really unique in the class design, there are clear boundaries and play styles that cover most lore appropriate play styles. Can I think of new player character stories, sure. But nothing I have seen suggested has ever remotely been close to a distinctly new class design. Most of the suggestions I have seen so far fit in 3rd faction versions of current classes, or copy current class flavors and reverse them their factions. ie Republic Agent, Imperial trooper. Sure the stories would bring something new, but that game-play is already covered. It's not that I say nay, it's that I say 'Show me' something legitimately new that fits the lore, and that doesn't mean playing as a droid or a wookiee, since those are races, and if they could skin a human as wookiee or a droid they will just become DLC/CC options for races, I can imagine droids, but not wookiees because well....lots of issues.

 

So can you name a class design/play style that doesn't do the exact thing other classes do? And make it have 2 advanced classes, and 12 specs, with 24 different flavors. oh and is it force using or not? Because it would be better to add one of each than just one, so now it's 2 unique classes, 4 advanced classes, and 48 more playstyles. With hundreds of hours of voice acting, 2 years of balance work on test servers, with additional instanced locations, and the addition of thousands of pieces of items.

 

By saying I doubt it'll happen, it's because I work in game design, I have played MMO's since 1999, I can see what it takes to do something as 'simple' as add a new class.

 

p.s. WOW's next class at a guess will be mail wearing, ranged, melee, and caster DPS.

[gothshark]

What do you mean all playstyles? Have you not played many mmo's? We are missing pet classes & enhancement classes. Necromancers, creature handlers, beastmasters, bards, summoners, are examples from various mmos.

 

Every class is a pet class in SWTOR. Enhancement depending on game is either buffs, melee, or healer. Every class has buffs in SWTOR, and I doubt they will upset the current system to have a purely buff class. Granted in super hero MMOs I like the controller archetype. Not going to happen here, no reason for it.

 

You are listing not gameplay styles but game feel styles.

 

Necromancers can be: Debuffs, Pet Class, Melee, or casters

Creature handler/beastmaster/ summoners, have pet will travel, only pets are not wanted in most raids, and usually not helpful in PVP. So we have companions for solo or small group play, everyone has pets.

 

The basic gameplay styles are as follows.

 

Melee DPS, Stealth DPS, Ranged DPS, Caster DPS, Tank, Healer

 

semi optional gameplay styles

Buffs, debuffs, control

 

Most games put buffs into healers, and control into tanks. defuffs usually fall into caster and melee dps. Ranged DPS is usually treated like melee DPS at range, and stealth DPS is usually burst damage single target.

 

All of these bases are covered. We do have room for some flavor, but full class designs are complete. As I said they have room for 3rd Advanced classes, but not room for new base classes.

[Monumenta]

What do you mean all playstyles? Have you not played many mmo's? We are missing pet classes & enhancement classes. Necromancers, creature handlers, beastmasters, bards, summoners, are examples from various mmos.

 

Bards!!!!!

 

I think the idea of a class that just gives everyone else in Ops group buffs and doesnt really fight or heal is totally doable and sounds awesome and viable as a endgame class like many here have suggested to escape the leveling cut scene probs.

 

Idk if its possible because I've never done it but it seems extremely possible to level to 60 using just planetary side missions (especially true if given access to all 4 starter planets I bet)

Edited May 20, 2015 by Monumenta

[Monumenta]

Whatever you said...

 

Swtor is my first mmo, I generally think the whole genre is dreadful and un-challenging but I really love Star Wars and I don't work in the gaming or entertainment industries.

 

Played 80 million MMOs and works 15 jobs in the game industry, I get it, you know everything about what this game holds in its entire future, I get it.

 

Still, despite your grim message of the future some of us like to play around with notions of what we would like to (and very well could) see. Because you don't know everything about the future of anything.

Edited May 20, 2015 by Monumenta

[Aries_cz]

naa he posted the same thing on Reddit. It's a boring video using stuff from the character creator while he talks in metronome about they did it in WOW and other MMOs, so they should do it in SWTOR.

 

How does one talk in metronome?

 

And KidLee has some good videos, but this one is a pure rant that doesn't take a lot of stuff into consideration

 

Smuggler/Agent...um pure melee? ugg that one would be tricky.

 

I think the Teräs Käsi "monk" idea could work as the melee Smuggler/Agent AC. I mean, smugglers already punch people as Scoundrels, so this would just be a full dedication to that.

[Lunafox]

And I highly doubt it would bring more players. Most people who will get drawn to this game will want to play Jedi or Sith anyway, so Imp Trooper or SIS Agent are really not in demand.

 

I think it would, old players who are curious to play the content perhaps, I know it would certainly keep me busy, I'd love something new. And I would totally love being an SIS agent, Imp trooper or Imperial Smuggler. Also there are lots of cool ideas people have right here in this thread too, that I wouldn't mind trying.

 

Something like that could keep me busy a long time...cause I'd be the sort to play out all the aspects, m/f, Light/Dark and through whatever plot variations there might be, like in IA.

[Rafaman]

Well, OP I appreciate the post. But, I don't see a feasible way of adding a class from level 1. It is possible sure but at this late stage not feasible, I don't think. You are talking about a new class from the ground up despite what little can be shared from other stories. Think about it, even if you shared the beginning of the trooper story or any other story for that matter, for it to be unique you would then have to branch off with new story and companions which would be a lengthy and costly dev effort. Not something they can attempt in an xpack unless they forgo everything else.

 

So, like others have mentioned, I think if it ever happens it would have to be after 50 at a minimum, maybe even 60. At that point you could have a break off or divergent class.

Edited May 20, 2015 by Rafaman

[gothshark]

 

Still, despite your grim message of the future some of us like to play around with notions of what we would like to (and very well could) see. Because you don't know everything about the future of anything.

 

Dreaming is fine,in fact most games encourage dreaming, I just hate for people to get too much false hope. Also I'm looking for someone to actually think of something that is actually new and fits the Star Wars universe.

 

My roommate actually had a brilliant idea, but it would require new races, and there would be no crossover of races.

 

-- which goes back to why we don't have wookiees, droids, ewoks, jawas, and other non-standard races.

 

His idea in a nutshell, is to add special classes for non-humanoid characters. ie an android race, with the droid class. It would have a unique playstyle, and look and feel. Problem only droids can be droids, and droids can't be the other classes. So it's really not something we will likely ever see.

[Monumenta]

Dreaming is fine,in fact most games encourage dreaming, I just hate for people to get too much false hope.

 

many of these ideas would fit just fine into swtor, youre a naysayer, some of us arent

[Xythius]

many of these ideas would fit just fine into swtor, youre a naysayer, some of us arent

 

And some of us aren't closing their eyes, putting their hands over their ears and stomping their feet saying "I want it now, I should have it!"

 

It's not 'nay-saying', it's realistic expectations.. And those expectations are also tempered by the lore of the Star Wars universe. While this timeline is several thousand years before the Star Wars movies, it is all very much based upon the lore established by the movies, as were the KOTOR games this evolved from.

 

As such, certain paradigms must be observed when taking into account the idea of adding new classes.

1) Does an existing class already perform this function?

2) Does this class have a realistic analogy to an archetype known in existing lore?

3) Will the proposed class add any utility above what is already available and if so, does it obsolete those existing abilities?

 

These are a few of the more basic questions that must be answered before additional classes are looked at. Also, in contrast to most MMO's, each class has access to their own buffs, debuffs, stuns, slows, roots and general crowd control utilties, in addition to their own damage abilities. Also, every class has 'pets' in the form of their companions.

 

So the classes that, in other MMO's, specialized in things like buffs/debuffs, pets, crowd control, etc. with very little in the form of offensive capabilities are simply obsolete - on top of the fact that they have no correlation to any known lore regarding such things. MAYBE could be handled by Inquisitors/Consulars, but that would simply be a seperate AC, at best.

 

And of course, this is ignoring the over-arching consideration of BW actually spending the development time, money and resources necessary to make such a thing possible

Edited May 20, 2015 by Xythius

[Monumenta]

right, because adding new features is never a way to attract a new audience to a service, remember what facebook looked like 10 years ago? but ya you guys are right, a stagnant unchanging game is def the way to keep making money indefinitely, why even bother adding new races or planets

 

the difficulties of implementing these things are the companies problem, this is a forum of players talking to players with scant input from 'the man' themselves

 

I dont care if its a new advanced class, a new noncombatant class for people that just like the GTN, or a whole new class that doesnt get its own story- any of it would be cool to see and is possible, way more possible than droid and alien races that Bioware peoples have stated directly they wont do but you still see post after post asking for those things

[Raphael_diSanto]

And some of us aren't closing their eyes, putting their hands over their ears and stomping their feet saying "I want it now, I should have it!"

 

It's not 'nay-saying', it's realistic expectations..

 

People don't like to have realistic expectations. In my experience, people seem to prefer to have unrealistic ones and see those hopes crushed by reality. I figure they must enjoy that sort of thing. They do it all the time.

 

I don't understand it, myself, but hey, if people wanna tilt at windmills, that's their business.

Edited May 20, 2015 by Raphael_diSanto

[Monumenta]

People don't like to have realistic expectations. In my experience, people seem to prefer to have unrealistic ones and see those hopes crushed by reality. I figure they must enjoy that sort of thing. They do it all the time.

 

I don't understand it, myself, but hey, if people wanna tilt at windmills, that's their business.

 

Dragons!

[gothshark]

right, because adding new features is never a way to attract a new audience to a service, remember what facebook looked like 10 years ago? but ya you guys are right, a stagnant unchanging game is def the way to keep making money indefinitely, why even bother adding new races or planets

 

the difficulties of implementing these things are the companies problem, this is a forum of players talking to players with scant input from 'the man' themselves

 

I dont care if its a new advanced class, a new noncombatant class for people that just like the GTN, or a whole new class that doesnt get its own story- any of it would be cool to see and is possible, way more possible than droid and alien races that Bioware peoples have stated directly they wont do but you still see post after post asking for those things

 

New features don't encourage new players in video games. New content does. Since it's the elephant in the room, look at WOW over the last few years. They have been hemorrhaging subscribers since the release of cataclysm, on average about 300k per quarter. During this time, many new features have been added, to include stuff found in all the new MMOs. These new features didn't cause the players to stop leaving the game, however for the few months just prior and just after the release of a new expansion people come back and play the new stuff for a short amount of time.

 

Engaging content is what sells games. As it is SWTOR is a top western MMO. So there is nothing to fear about the game ever going away. If anything if the new movies do justice to the franchise it is possible that subs can increase a small bit.

[gothshark]

Star Wars Galaxies pre cu - that's how you make a(n) MMORPG ... that no one played

 

As a max level dancer, I disagree.