Imperial Class Star Destroyer: Major Design Flaw

[Ghisallo]

Arent't Mon Cal shields in various blisters around the ship ?

 

(And thus pefectly visible and targetable by any reasonably modern starfighter ?)

 

As for the shields, you can't blame the Imperials for creating the only piece of techology in the whole galaxy which will not to the standard Star Trek engineering failure upon being hit (IE, shower of sparks and electrocution followed by explosions if not on the heroes ship) There are pretty valid reasons to put in a relatively secluded location giant devices that are prone to explode extremely violently when overloading.

 

A few things... Those blisters house all different things. The blisters were originally (basically) giant sky lights...the basic MC-80 is just a converted cruise ship. Each ship is also unique... not just in terms of where the blisters are but what is in the blister. So maybe may be the top blister on quadrant A has a shield generator on ship A...on ship B it has turbo lasers. This uniqueness drives Alliance techs NUTS.

 

What makes the MC-80 shield system better is that they have a lot more shield generators BUT that the shields are overlapping and redundant...so even if you take out one generator you do NOT drop the shields on that section. To drop the shields on that section you have to take out multiple generators. On the other hand taking out one generator of the Executor was enough to drop the shields for the bridge and....KABOOM.

 

Now as I said there is a reason for this...as a converted civilian liner they were limited on how much armor they could add so in order to be effective necessity dictated superior shields.

Edited May 4, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Ghisallo]

Yes I realize that, what I'm asking is, where does it say specifically that the domes aren't also covered by the shielding?

 

I don't think the point is that they are, or are not, covered by shields themselves but the fact there is no redundancy. As such drop one and you now have a vulnerable sector of the vessel. I meta the fact that the fighter took out the generator by looking at Admiral Akbar's order before it happened "concentrate all fire on that super star destroyer."

 

Since the ship has only a (comparatively) few large generators rather than multiple redundant generators, it made it possible to essentially overwhelm the system, so the targeted attack on the particular generator was successful AND in taking out that generator they actually lost the shields to the bridge due to a lack of redundancy.

[Nieme]

Lots of well stated ideas, but since I agree that in the movies they were blown up as if they did not even have a shield, I am going to reference Star Wars: Empire at War. A great SW RTS that allows planetary and space battles. In that game the Star Destroyers have a shield, and a shield generator. As do the other ship classes. In order to destroy those generators one must attack with bomber squadrons that can bypass the shield for a short time with an ion cannon, to hit the generator with a normal missile...or you could focus fire on it with enough ships to "burn out" the generator and destroy the ship with sheer ferocity. I like taking them apart with a good fleet of bombers though.

[Wolfninjajedi]

I don't think the point is that they are, or are not, covered by shields themselves but the fact there is no redundancy. As such drop one and you now have a vulnerable sector of the vessel. I meta the fact that the fighter took out the generator by looking at Admiral Akbar's order before it happened "concentrate all fire on that super star destroyer."

 

Since the ship has only a (comparatively) few large generators rather than multiple redundant generators, it made it possible to essentially overwhelm the system, so the targeted attack on the particular generator was successful AND in taking out that generator they actually lost the shields to the bridge due to a lack of redundancy.

 

Well actually if you look at the scene, both domes are destroyed, the destruction of the 1st takes place after Ackbar gives the order and the other is bursted into flames when you see the A-wing crash in.

[vampiric_hoshi]

Not to bash a dead horse, but this has been a debate for over 30 years, and the official line from LucasFilm is that those domes are sensor domes and NOT shield generators.

 

Despite the apparent connection between the sensor dome being destroyed and the line "the bridge shields are down", the official word was that the sensor domes contain shield veins for the bridge, and not the shield generators itself, and that it was a combination of these veins being destroyed (thereby weakening the bridge shields) and the concentration of fire power from the Rebel fleet, that brought them down temporarily.

 

In either case, it was only the shielding around the bridge itself that was affected and not the rest of the ship which would have been smothered in shield generators all over the place.

 

It was then an incredibly lucky shot (or the force?) that an A-Wing was able to collide with the bridge and destroy it.

 

Those domes being considered shield generators for the entire ship was an invention for the X-Wing series of games as they needed a way for a single X-Wing to destroy an entire Star Destroyer. Since that series of games it has incorrectly marched it's way into the EU but has since been confirmed as erroneous.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Not to bash a dead horse, but this has been a debate for over 30 years, and the official line from LucasFilm is that those domes are sensor domes and NOT shield generators.

 

Despite the apparent connection between the sensor dome being destroyed and the line "the bridge shields are down", the official word was that the sensor domes contain shield veins for the bridge, and not the shield generators itself, and that it was a combination of these veins being destroyed (thereby weakening the bridge shields) and the concentration of fire power from the Rebel fleet, that brought them down temporarily.

 

In either case, it was only the shielding around the bridge itself that was affected and not the rest of the ship which would have been smothered in shield generators all over the place.

 

It was then an incredibly lucky shot (or the force?) that an A-Wing was able to collide with the bridge and destroy it.

 

Those domes being considered shield generators for the entire ship was an invention for the X-Wing series of games as they needed a way for a single X-Wing to destroy an entire Star Destroyer. Since that series of games it has incorrectly marched it's way into the EU but has since been confirmed as erroneous.

 

Hmm...now that I re-read yeah...I am recalling that sensor dome thing..

Edited May 4, 2015 by Wolfninjajedi

[Selenial]

Yes that was confirmed in the Incredible cross sections book IIRC.

 

Completely slipped my mind...

[Ghisallo]

Well actually if you look at the scene, both domes are destroyed, the destruction of the 1st takes place after Ackbar gives the order and the other is bursted into flames when you see the A-wing crash in.

 

As part of the impact into the bridge...afaik. Hey again don't take my word for it. It is the source books that say what makes the MC-80 shields superior (not the entire ship) is their overlapping redundancy...so if overlapping redundancy makes them superior, even when the individual generators are also noted as smaller... This means the ISD doesn't have overlapping redundancy.

[Wolfninjajedi]

As part of the impact into the bridge...afaik. Hey again don't take my word for it. It is the source books that say what makes the MC-80 shields superior (not the entire ship) is their overlapping redundancy...so if overlapping redundancy makes them superior, even when the individual generators are also noted as smaller... This means the ISD doesn't have overlapping redundancy.

 

Hm yeah just re-watched that scene.

[Selenial]

As part of the impact into the bridge...afaik. Hey again don't take my word for it. It is the source books that say what makes the MC-80 shields superior (not the entire ship) is their overlapping redundancy...so if overlapping redundancy makes them superior, even when the individual generators are also noted as smaller... This means the ISD doesn't have overlapping redundancy.

 

Thing is, I don't see why you think the ships could have both.

 

The ISD has better armor, better weapons and greater tactical maneuverability, you couldn't fit extra shielding on without sacrificing other areas. If you could have all of them then they would have.

 

It wasn't a design flaw, it was a design choice.

[kalenath]

If someone else has posted this, I apologize.

 

In the book 'I, Jedi', one of the character says that an Imperial class Star Destroyer was '72,000 design flaws in action'. To which another character replied 'A conservative estimate'.

 

Sounds about right actually.

Edited May 4, 2015 by kalenath

[Wolfninjajedi]

If someone else has posted this, I apologize.

 

In the book 'I, Jedi', one of the character says that an Imperial class Star Destroyer was '72,000 design flaws in action'. To which another character replied 'A conservative estimate'.

 

Sounds about right actually.

 

Sounds kind of hyperbolic tbh, if it had that many flaws just waiting to happen, then an ISD would be much easier to take out and the engineers would have to be completely stupid to not notice any of them. But by lore, this isn't the case.

Edited May 4, 2015 by Wolfninjajedi

[IchibanSaru]

Not to bash a dead horse, but this has been a debate for over 30 years, and the official line from LucasFilm is that those domes are sensor domes and NOT shield generators.

 

Despite the apparent connection between the sensor dome being destroyed and the line "the bridge shields are down", the official word was that the sensor domes contain shield veins for the bridge, and not the shield generators itself, and that it was a combination of these veins being destroyed (thereby weakening the bridge shields) and the concentration of fire power from the Rebel fleet, that brought them down temporarily.

 

In either case, it was only the shielding around the bridge itself that was affected and not the rest of the ship which would have been smothered in shield generators all over the place.

 

It was then an incredibly lucky shot (or the force?) that an A-Wing was able to collide with the bridge and destroy it.

 

Those domes being considered shield generators for the entire ship was an invention for the X-Wing series of games as they needed a way for a single X-Wing to destroy an entire Star Destroyer. Since that series of games it has incorrectly marched it's way into the EU but has since been confirmed as erroneous.

 

Then why do Lucasfilms licensed books and graphics indicate on every official cutaway and layout label them as Deflector Shield Domes or Generators? Wookiepeadia cuts the difference saying that the Deflector Domes also house sensors, but the official graphics from official magazines (Star Wars Insider) and various picture books over the years (again, licensed by Lucas) say they are deflector shield domes.

The logic follows in Ep6 that they are unshielded Deflector Shield Domes rather than simply sensor arrays. And once again, they are called "Bridge Deflector Shields" because they are mounted on the bridge superstructure.

Point out to me on an official illustration or plan where the "real" shield generators are.

[Henge_Wolf]

But it leads up to one of my favorite moments in the entire trilogy.

 

"Sir we've lost bridge deflector shields."

"Intensify all forward batteries I don't want anything to get through"

"INTENSIFY ALL FORWARD FIREPOWER!!!!!"

"TOO LATE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

 

I love that. Just saying.

[Angedechu]

If someone else has posted this, I apologize.

 

In the book 'I, Jedi', one of the character says that an Imperial class Star Destroyer was '72,000 design flaws in action'. To which another character replied 'A conservative estimate'.

 

Sounds about right actually.

 

I think it was a parody quote of something similar said about the Space Shuttle.

[Rabin_Lorac]

Those domes on the Star Destroyer conning tower are not shield generators. They are sensor nodes. Very similar of the ones found on current naval ships.

 

Decipher made a critical error when it made its Hoth expansion pack and labeled them shield generators. Everyone made the mistake of connecting the dome being destroyed and then the bridge shields going down in Return of the Jedi with the Super Star Destroyer.

 

We know throughout the space battle of Endor battle dialog and scenes do not match.

 

http://www.theforce.net/swtc/Pix/kdy/blueisd1.gif

 

This picture is directly from ILM. This is not from a "reference" book. It is not from "fan art". This is the original

 

CINEFEX Proof

 

Wayne Poe has provided a crucial quotation. This quote comes from the professional report of Richard Edlund about ILM's work on Return of the Jedi, in the journal CINEFEX in 1983. This is a primary, contemporary source. There is no more authoritative source on ROTJ.

 

We're also still working on the sequence where Mad Max crashes his A-wing into Vader's ship and causes the star destroyer to lose control and crash into the Deathstar. The penetration shot with the mushroom-cloud explosion we've had for some time, and we've got the shot where the ship's been hit and is starting to heel over. A very large explosion is coming out of the bridge area and it's causing several others to go as well; and one of the big radar domes up on top has been blown away, and that's spewing flames. It's pretty spectacular. Between that sort of closeup of the bridge section and the long-shot of the surface, we need two more cuts of the ship continuing to heel over and dropping towards the Deathstar like an arrow. We've shot a number of elements on those - explosions and things that have to be projected onto the miniatures - and so they're pretty much ready to go. Don Dow will be shooting those tomorrow.

CINEFEX #13, p.55, 3 February 1983

— Richard Edlund (who shared ILM's 1983 Academy Award for ROTJ special effects).

 

The intention of ILM and the depiction of the movie no longer show any ambiguity. The globes on the Executor's tower are "radar domes", i.e. scanners, just as their location, form and real-life naval counterparts have always implied. Now we have absolute proof, above and beyond any contradiction posed in second-generation spin-off products.

 

The loss of a globe on the Executor was not the cause of shield failure, but rather an opportunistic attack permitted by shield failure occuring moments earlier.

 

What is sad about this whole situation is because of the misconception from the movie because of the editing and skipped scenes and dialog by George Lucas style of directing and writing, the domes being shields have now become so wildly accepted that it has become "truth".

[Overmind]

A spherically generated shield will have to be vortex-like to maintain integrity, so it will look like a sphere with 2 holes at the poles (like the upper side of a tornado).

To prevent that (the pole holes), one would have to generate multiple overlapping shields of different phases/frequencies.

[IchibanSaru]

Those domes on the Star Destroyer conning tower are not shield generators. They are sensor nodes. Very similar of the ones found on current naval ships.

 

Decipher made a critical error when it made its Hoth expansion pack and labeled them shield generators. Everyone made the mistake of connecting the dome being destroyed and then the bridge shields going down in Return of the Jedi with the Super Star Destroyer.

 

We know throughout the space battle of Endor battle dialog and scenes do not match.

 

http://www.theforce.net/swtc/Pix/kdy/blueisd1.gif

 

This picture is directly from ILM. This is not from a "reference" book. It is not from "fan art". This is the original

 

CINEFEX Proof

 

Wayne Poe has provided a crucial quotation. This quote comes from the professional report of Richard Edlund about ILM's work on Return of the Jedi, in the journal CINEFEX in 1983. This is a primary, contemporary source. There is no more authoritative source on ROTJ.

 

We're also still working on the sequence where Mad Max crashes his A-wing into Vader's ship and causes the star destroyer to lose control and crash into the Deathstar. The penetration shot with the mushroom-cloud explosion we've had for some time, and we've got the shot where the ship's been hit and is starting to heel over. A very large explosion is coming out of the bridge area and it's causing several others to go as well; and one of the big radar domes up on top has been blown away, and that's spewing flames. It's pretty spectacular. Between that sort of closeup of the bridge section and the long-shot of the surface, we need two more cuts of the ship continuing to heel over and dropping towards the Deathstar like an arrow. We've shot a number of elements on those - explosions and things that have to be projected onto the miniatures - and so they're pretty much ready to go. Don Dow will be shooting those tomorrow.

CINEFEX #13, p.55, 3 February 1983

— Richard Edlund (who shared ILM's 1983 Academy Award for ROTJ special effects).

 

The intention of ILM and the depiction of the movie no longer show any ambiguity. The globes on the Executor's tower are "radar domes", i.e. scanners, just as their location, form and real-life naval counterparts have always implied. Now we have absolute proof, above and beyond any contradiction posed in second-generation spin-off products.

 

The loss of a globe on the Executor was not the cause of shield failure, but rather an opportunistic attack permitted by shield failure occuring moments earlier.

 

What is sad about this whole situation is because of the misconception from the movie because of the editing and skipped scenes and dialog by George Lucas style of directing and writing, the domes being shields have now become so wildly accepted that it has become "truth".

 

According to all Lucasfilm books and reference materials, the domes in question are deflector/communication arrays. That's not fan art. It comes from Lucasfilm itself. Case in point, the brand new "Ultimate Star Wars" book states about the Executor:

 

"The command tower rises from the aft of the central habitable island and is capped with two geodesic communication and deflector domes."

[reference: [page 304. Vehicles Chapter: Executor (Super Star Destroyer)]

 

That is as authoritative and definitive as you can get. It's official canon. The domes contain the shield deflector generators.

 

The modellers used model kits of modern navy ships to help construct their ship models. The domes in question were indeed radar domes so the name probably stuck with the VFX and model teams.

However, it doesn't matter what the VFX team or modelers labeled them as. It's what Lucas, Lucasfilm, LucasArts, LucasBooks and now Disney (The Ultimate Star Wars book being the first definitive encyclopedia using the new canon rules) label them as. All of those groups have labeled them as communication/ shield deflectors. That is what they are according to canon.

[IchibanSaru]

A spherically generated shield will have to be vortex-like to maintain integrity, so it will look like a sphere with 2 holes at the poles (like the upper side of a tornado).

To prevent that (the pole holes), one would have to generate multiple overlapping shields of different phases/frequencies.

 

Why would it have to have "vortex-like" holes? An energy radiating outwards in a spherical manner doesn't posses these "polar vortexes". Look at a light bulb as a simple example of this.

You seem to be referring to a magnetic shield with polarity loops like Earth's own magnetic field with its magnetic polarity wells at either pole.

Outside of no canon references to deflector technology being based on magnetic fields (with polarity wells), the ability for ships to change deflector shield strength forwards or aft points towards an energy field rather than a magnetic one.

I understand that electromagnetism combines energy and magnetism, but magnetic fields act differently than a radiated energy field. The term "deflector shield generators" denotes that energy is generated rather than housing massive electromagnets.

I know of no other non-rotational energy field other than magnetic, that produces "vortex-like" holes at the poles. Nothing in Star Wars canon suggests that the technology uses a magnetic field strong enough to deflect or absorb blaster fire (high energy). Star Wars universe ship deflectors absorb energy... the energy beams don't ricochet off in different directions. They gradually fail as more energy is absorbed than can be mitigated away in the form of heat waste. /shrug

 

All that aside. The A-Wing in Ep6 hit the deflector dome from the side (rather than from above where it would have a "softer spot" if your theory was correct).