Imperial Class Star Destroyer: Major Design Flaw

[IchibanSaru]

Why weren't the two geodesic shield generators shielded from attack??

 

In Return of The Jedi during the Battle of Endor, the order is given to take out the main shield generators (to drop the shields on the Super Star Destroyer: Executor). Ships are seen shooting at and then blowing up one the generators causing the shields to falter and then drop when the other one is subsequently destroyed.

 

In the old PC game X-Wing, a similar mission is given where you are tasked to destroy the generators so that other ships can then destroy a star destroyer. All you had to worry about as a pilot were TIE Fighters and the destroyer's turbo lasers as you weaved your way to take out the generators. They weren't protected by any shields. Just armor.

 

How is it that something so key to defense can be so vulnerable and exposed to attack? If the generators generate a force field, how can they be unprotected themselves if the field protects the entire ship?

[Angedechu]

The answer is that all ships have fairly identifiable shields generator-for a starfighter pilot with SW avionics.

 

(also, in further game of the series, you do have to remove the shields. The lore (and the movies) does state that ion canon bypass shields altogether.

Edited May 3, 2015 by Angedechu

[Wolfninjajedi]

I'm not seeing it a design flaw, if it took the entire Rebel fleet concrentrated fire on the Executor just to bring down the shields long enough to take out the domes. The domes are described as being able to block nearly any attack when completely up and shielded, it's not really a design flaw. Edited May 3, 2015 by Wolfninjajedi

[IchibanSaru]

Ion blasts are meant to incapacitate a ship by knocking out the electricity to one or more components (bypassing the shield) and not harming the ship hull itself. But in the movie, no ion blasts were indicated nor seen. The fighters came in firing either missiles or torpedoes to destroy the generators.

Wookiepedia states that the Shield Generators rely on heavy armor for protection.

Again, according to wookiepedia, ion cannons were used to incapacitate a ship once its shields were down. They reference the games when they say this given that ship to ship ion cannons were never shown in the movies. I remember in the X-Wing and TIE Fighter games having to beat the shields down to 0% with either lasers or ion blasts before the ship would be incapacitated.

That being said, the only "on film" use of an ion cannon versus a ship was the Hoth planetary ion cannon during the evacuation of the rebels. It incapacitated a star destroyer (with shields up I would assume) but I would guess that the immense power of the two blast overpowered the shields before hitting the hull.

 

So again. A shield generator... that generates protection to the ship... isn't itself protected by that same field, but is outside of it and requires heavy armor.

As for other ships having the same vulnerability, no reference within the movies point to that. EU schematics show arbitrary parts as shield generators, but they aren't confirmed within the movies. Perhaps in The Clone Wars series they were, but that's another era of ships. The Imperial Class Star Destroyer is the only ship in official Disney Canon where the shield generators are specifically identified and consequently destroyed with the resulting desired effect.

[IchibanSaru]

I'm not seeing it a design flaw, if it took the entire Rebel fleet concrentrated fire on the Executor just to bring down the shields long enough to take out the domes. The domes are described as being able to block nearly any attack when completely up and shielded, it's not really a design flaw.

 

No. The generators were attacked to take down the shields so that the larger ships could destroy it. The rebels used "concentration" to overwhelm the turbo lasers and TIE Fighter defensive net so a few ships could maneuver in and take out the domes. Once the domes were destroyed, it was luck that an A-Wing took out the bridge... making the Executor lose control (dramatic effect for the movie I'm sure since the actual ship would've just floated on until destroyed). Further fire from the rebel capital ships contributed to the Executor's demise as it "fell" into the Death Star II.

[Selenial]

No. The generators were attacked to take down the shields so that the larger ships could destroy it. The rebels used "concentration" to overwhelm the turbo lasers and TIE Fighter defensive net so a few ships could maneuver in and take out the domes. Once the domes were destroyed, it was luck that an A-Wing took out the bridge... making the Executor lose control (dramatic effect for the movie I'm sure since the actual ship would've just floated on until destroyed). Further fire from the rebel capital ships contributed to the Executor's demise as it "fell" into the Death Star II.

Once the main bridge was destroyed all systems went down, before the ship was able to transfer power to the secondary bridge it got pulled in by the Death Star's artificial gravity.

 

Also the only reason the defensive positions failed was the Emperor's death, his Battle Meditation being lost threw the fleet into disarray.

Edited May 3, 2015 by Selenial

[Wolfninjajedi]

No. The generators were attacked to take down the shields so that the larger ships could destroy it. The rebels used "concentration" to overwhelm the turbo lasers and TIE Fighter defensive net so a few ships could maneuver in and take out the domes. Once the domes were destroyed, it was luck that an A-Wing took out the bridge... making the Executor lose control (dramatic effect for the movie I'm sure since the actual ship would've just floated on until destroyed). Further fire from the rebel capital ships contributed to the Executor's demise as it "fell" into the Death Star II.

 

What is no?

 

Yeah the Rebel fleet concentrated fire on the Executor to take down its shields and destroy the domes. Yes obviously it was luck that the A-wing took the Executor out.

[Diviciacus]

Shield generators being outside of the shield they generate is pretty ubiquitous in Star Wars. Rebel base on Hoth? Shield generator outside the shield. Star Destroyers? Shield generators outside the shield.

 

I think it's the same line of thought that makes Magic cards read "Other creatures you control have hexproof." If you can't take out the source, everything becomes invulnerable and it makes for boring and unfun gameplay. Similarly, shields in SW from a lore standpoint seem to be largely invincible. If the shield protected the generators, the ship would be essentially unassailable short of ramming it with another ship of similar or larger size; and that makes for boring storytelling.

Edited May 3, 2015 by Diviciacus

[Wolfninjajedi]

Shield generators being outside of the shield they generate is pretty ubiquitous in Star Wars. Rebel base on Hoth? Shield generator outside the shield. Star Destroyers? Shield generators outside the shield.

 

I think it's the same line of thought that makes Magic cards read "Other creatures you control have hexproof." If you can't take out the source, everything becomes invulnerable and it makes for boring and unfun gameplay. Similarly, shields in SW from a lore standpoint seem to be largely invincible. If the shield protected the generators, the ship would be essentially unassailable short of ramming it with another ship of similar or larger size; and that makes for boring storytelling.

 

The shield generator on Hoth wasn't outside the shield, otherwise the fleet could have simply bombarded the generator itself and then bombarded the base. This is why the Imperials had to go for a ground assault.

 

Also the Gungan Army had a shield with the generator inside, so...yeah, shield generators are more than capable of being inside the shield while active.

Edited May 4, 2015 by Wolfninjajedi

[IchibanSaru]

What is no?

 

Yeah the Rebel fleet concentrated fire on the Executor to take down its shields and destroy the domes. Yes obviously it was luck that the A-wing took the Executor out.

 

Sorry for the miscommunication.

 

Admiral Akbar focused the rebel fleet's fire onto the Executor to (a) allow the ships flying into the Death Star more time and (b) to overwhelm the Executor's defenses.

Two A-Wings shot what appears to be energy weapons at the generator... which promptly exploded. The loss of shields was noted by an Imperial officer ("Sir. We've lost our bridge deflector shields"). It wasn't before one of the generators exploded that the Executor was without shields. All Admiral Piett could do at that point was concentrate firepower to compensate for the loss of shields and then the out of control A-Wing shows up and hilarity ensued.

 

My point is.. the A-Wings were responsible for the loss of shields. The Executor had shields before the generator was destroyed. The A-Wings attacked while the Executor's shields were "up"... meaning that the generators were not within the protective envelope.

 

NOTE: The shield generators are called Bridge Deflector Shields because the generators are mounted on the bridge superstructure. They provide cover for the entire ship (except for themselves).

[Ghisallo]

The answer is that all ships have fairly identifiable shields generator-for a starfighter pilot with SW avionics.

 

(also, in further game of the series, you do have to remove the shields. The lore (and the movies) does state that ion canon bypass shields altogether.

 

Actually false. One of the advantages of the Mon Calamari Cruisers was that their shield generators were both better protected and they had more of them, thus having greater redundancy. This was to make up for the fact they had less raw armor than an ISD.

[Selenial]

Yeah the Rebel fleet concentrated fire on the Executor to take down its shields and destroy the domes. Yes obviously it was luck that the A-wing took the Executor out.

 

"Then you must have wondered how a few dozen Rebel ships could possibly rout an Imperial force that outgunned it by at least ten to one "I didn't spend much time with such wonderings," C'baoth said dryly. "I assumed that the Rebels were simply better warriors."

"In a sense, that's true," Thrawn agreed. "The Rebels did indeed fight better, but not because of any special abilities or training. They fought better than the Fleet because the Emperor was dead."

He turned to look at Pellaeon. "You were there, Captain—you must have noticed it. The sudden loss of coordination between crew members and ships; the loss of efficiency and discipline. The loss, in short, of that elusive quality we call fighting spirit."

"There was some confusion, yes," Pellaeon said stiffly. He was starting to see where Thrawn was going with this, and he didn't like it a bit. "But nothing that can't be explained by the normal stresses of battle."

One blue-black eyebrow went up, just slightly. "Really? The loss of the Executor—the sudden, last-minute TIE fighter incompetence that brought about the destruction of the Death Star itself—the loss of six other Star Destroyers in engagements that none of them should have had trouble with? All of that nothing but normal battle stress?"

"The Emperor was not directing the battle," Pellaeon snapped with a fire that startled him. "Not in any way. I was there, Admiral—I know."

"Yes, Captain, you were there," Thrawn said, his voice abruptly hard. "And it's time you gave up your blindfold and faced the truth, no matter how bitter you find it. You had no real fighting spirit of your own anymore—none of you in the Imperial Fleet did. It was the Emperor's will that drove you; the Emperor's mind that provided you with strength and resolve and efficiency. You were as dependent on that presence as if you were all borg-implanted into a combat computer."

 

None of it was Luck, that ship and it's compliment could have given the entire rebel fleet there trouble alone...

[Ghisallo]

I'm not seeing it a design flaw, if it took the entire Rebel fleet concrentrated fire on the Executor just to bring down the shields long enough to take out the domes. The domes are described as being able to block nearly any attack when completely up and shielded, it's not really a design flaw.

 

I think you are missing what he is trying to say. The bridge shield generator is indeed vulnerable to a snub fighter attack. They rely on point defense systems and TIE fightersl screens to keep snub fighters from getting into a position where they can take them out. So one could argue the following...

 

if you need to deploy fighters in a defensive screen to keep you capital ship intact, rather than use them offensively taking the fight to the enemy, that the ships design is flawed.

[Selenial]

I think you are missing what he is trying to say. The bridge shield generator is indeed vulnerable to a snub fighter attack. They rely on point defense systems and TIE fightersl screens to keep snub fighters from getting into a position where they can take them out. So one could argue the following...

 

if you need to deploy fighters in a defensive screen to keep you capital ship intact, rather than use them offensively taking the fight to the enemy, that the ships design is flawed.

I like that everyone is conveniently using theory instead of the facts we already know.

 

Yes the entire *********** Rebel fleet focusing on a single ship manages to bring down it's shields. This ship comes with Hundreds of Tie fighters and 500 point defense turrets to defend the bridge. The ship would not have gone down at all unless the Fighters were thrown into disarray by the loss of the Emperor, the bridge wouldn't have gone down and the Executor could feasibly have Solo'd the fleet. What you forget is that they were specifically ordered to not destroy the fleet. The Executor has enough weapon emplacements to tear through a Nebulon or even the Home-One in minutes, for smaller ships seconds. It chose not to.

 

If you think compensating for a weakness is in itself a weakness, I have no idea what to say.

[Ghisallo]

"Then you must have wondered how a few dozen Rebel ships could possibly rout an Imperial force that outgunned it by at least ten to one "I didn't spend much time with such wonderings," C'baoth said dryly. "I assumed that the Rebels were simply better warriors."

"In a sense, that's true," Thrawn agreed. "The Rebels did indeed fight better, but not because of any special abilities or training. They fought better than the Fleet because the Emperor was dead."

He turned to look at Pellaeon. "You were there, Captain—you must have noticed it. The sudden loss of coordination between crew members and ships; the loss of efficiency and discipline. The loss, in short, of that elusive quality we call fighting spirit."

"There was some confusion, yes," Pellaeon said stiffly. He was starting to see where Thrawn was going with this, and he didn't like it a bit. "But nothing that can't be explained by the normal stresses of battle."

One blue-black eyebrow went up, just slightly. "Really? The loss of the Executor—the sudden, last-minute TIE fighter incompetence that brought about the destruction of the Death Star itself—the loss of six other Star Destroyers in engagements that none of them should have had trouble with? All of that nothing but normal battle stress?"

"The Emperor was not directing the battle," Pellaeon snapped with a fire that startled him. "Not in any way. I was there, Admiral—I know."

"Yes, Captain, you were there," Thrawn said, his voice abruptly hard. "And it's time you gave up your blindfold and faced the truth, no matter how bitter you find it. You had no real fighting spirit of your own anymore—none of you in the Imperial Fleet did. It was the Emperor's will that drove you; the Emperor's mind that provided you with strength and resolve and efficiency. You were as dependent on that presence as if you were all borg-implanted into a combat computer."

 

None of it was Luck, that ship and it's compliment could have given the entire rebel fleet there trouble alone...

 

I have always taken two things away from that exchange (after you see what happens when C'baoth starts using battle meditation.). In essence what Thrawn calls incompetence is a combination of 1. The fact that the Emperor artificially increased efficiency (I think C'Baoth proved to increase efficiency by like 40%) and 2. Because the Emperor used it like a club rather than a scalpel the Imp fleet became dependent on it.

 

Because of that I always had an issue with the term " incompetence ". I mean is the athlete who no longer uses steroids or other PEDs but still works hard suddenly a weakling? No he is just now only as strong or fast as a " normal" highly trained athlete can be.

Edited May 4, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Selenial]

I have always taken two things away from that exchange (after you see what happens when C'baoth starts using battle meditation.). In essence what Thrawn calls incompetence is a combination of 1. The fact that the Emperor artificially increased efficiency (I think C'Baoth proved to increase efficiency by like 40%) and 2. Because the Emperor used it like a club rather than a scalpel the Imp fleet became dependent on it.

 

Because of that I always had an issue with the term " incompetence ". I mean is the athlete who no longer uses steroids or other PEDs but still works hard suddenly a weakling? No he is just now only as strong or fast as a " normal" highly trained athlete can be.

 

Unfortunately that's wrong.

 

Added to this, the continued bombardment by Rebel cruisers—smelling fear in the enemy—merely heightened the sense of hysteria that was already pervasive.

For the Emperor was dead. The central, powerful evil that had been the cohesive force to the Empire was gone; and when the dark side was this diffused, this nondirected—this was simply where it led. Confusion. Desperation. Damp fear.

 

The ROTJ Novel quite clearly shows Palpatine's death was the cause of the loss in that he literally drove his followers to mass chaos, not just that he stopped giving them hope.

[Ghisallo]

I like that everyone is conveniently using theory instead of the facts we already know.

 

Yes the entire *********** Rebel fleet focusing on a single ship manages to bring down it's shields. This ship comes with Hundreds of Tie fighters and 500 point defense turrets to defend the bridge. The ship would not have gone down at all unless the Fighters were thrown into disarray by the loss of the Emperor, the bridge wouldn't have gone down and the Executor could feasibly have Solo'd the fleet. What you forget is that they were specifically ordered to not destroy the fleet. The Executor has enough weapon emplacements to tear through a Nebulon or even the Home-One in minutes, for smaller ships seconds. It chose not to.

 

If you think compensating for a weakness is in itself a weakness, I have no idea what to say.

 

You are missing the point. The point is, if you look at the ship from the perspective of an engineer, it is a weakness. Why would a competent engineer make a shield system that requires hundreds of point defense guns and scores of fighters to be effective. A shield system should be...well shielding itself....point of fact follows...

 

Also you ignore that EU Canon itself stated that the Shield system of the Mon Calamari cruisers was SUPERiOR because of the redundant and over lapping nature which made such issues far less a factor.

 

So yes it was a design flaw...according to Canon, not just a reader's analysis.

[Ghisallo]

Unfortunately that's wrong.

 

Added to this, the continued bombardment by Rebel cruisers—smelling fear in the enemy—merely heightened the sense of hysteria that was already pervasive.

For the Emperor was dead. The central, powerful evil that had been the cohesive force to the Empire was gone; and when the dark side was this diffused, this nondirected—this was simply where it led. Confusion. Desperation. Damp fear.

 

The ROTJ Novel quite clearly shows Palpatine's death was the cause of the loss in that he literally drove his followers to mass chaos, not just that he stopped giving them hope.

 

 

Umm did you read what I said... I said they became dependent on it. The point is that LATER, before C'baoth came along, the Imperial Remnant, under Thrawn, became successful again and not incompetent. Why? They over came their dependency, similar to the athlete who became dependent on PEDs for a portion of their performance. My point was to simply say I think the term "incompetence" was the wrong word. Especially if one looks at the long term.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Sorry for the miscommunication.

 

Admiral Akbar focused the rebel fleet's fire onto the Executor to (a) allow the ships flying into the Death Star more time and (b) to overwhelm the Executor's defenses.

Two A-Wings shot what appears to be energy weapons at the generator... which promptly exploded. The loss of shields was noted by an Imperial officer ("Sir. We've lost our bridge deflector shields"). It wasn't before one of the generators exploded that the Executor was without shields. All Admiral Piett could do at that point was concentrate firepower to compensate for the loss of shields and then the out of control A-Wing shows up and hilarity ensued.

 

My point is.. the A-Wings were responsible for the loss of shields. The Executor had shields before the generator was destroyed. The A-Wings attacked while the Executor's shields were "up"... meaning that the generators were not within the protective envelope.

 

NOTE: The shield generators are called Bridge Deflector Shields because the generators are mounted on the bridge superstructure. They provide cover for the entire ship (except for themselves).

 

1. Right

 

2. Right

 

Though where is this noted, that they cover the entire ship but themselves?

 

Although I just re-read, concentrated fire could bring down the shield temp and the A-wings used concussion missiles focused fire on one of the domes. So...yeah, it's possible that the A-wings would be able to take out the domes in that manner considering the destructive capacity of their missiles.

[Selenial]

You are missing the point. The point is, if you look at the ship from the perspective of an engineer, it is a weakness. Why would a competent engineer make a shield system that requires hundreds of point defense guns and scores of fighters to be effective. A shield system should be...well shielding itself....point of fact follows...

 

Also you ignore that EU Canon itself stated that the Shield system of the Mon Calamari cruisers was SUPERiOR because of the redundant and over lapping nature which made such issues far less a factor.

 

So yes it was a design flaw...according to Canon, not just a reader's analysis.

 

An executor has 83x the amount of weapons as an MC80, for only being 10x the size, (If that, probably less). They are built to different strengths, the Executor could not feasibly have both excellent shielding and an incredible defense.

 

Ion canons destroy shields, and they were stated to be the Mon Cala's greatest weakness by far. The Empire's solution was far more well rounded anyway, an Executor would have annihilated that fleet if allowed to.

[Selenial]

Umm did you read what I said... I said they became dependent on it. The point is that LATER, before C'baoth came along, the Imperial Remnant, under Thrawn, became successful again and not incompetent. Why? They over came their dependency, similar to the athlete who became dependent on PEDs for a portion of their performance. My point was to simply say I think the term "incompetence" was the wrong word. Especially if one looks at the long term.

 

That is completely besides the point though, whether they became dependent on Battle Meditation or that the Emperor's dark essence sent them into chaos, it doesn't matter to this debate and is simply fan interpretation.

 

What matters is that the ship itself would not have lost without the intervention of whatever sent the Imperial troops in a downward spiral.

[IchibanSaru]

 

Though where is this noted, that they cover the entire ship but themselves?

 

It's been that way since Ep6. Even the EU didn't diverge from that fact. Any official or standard schematic, layout or blueprint shows that there are only two deflector shield generators on an Imperial Class Star Destroyer and they are they are mounted above the bridge superstructure. All official illustrations label them and only them as the source of deflector shields.

 

For those writing about battle meditation. I have a hard time seeing how Kuat Drive Yards could have said "Hey battle meditation will cover up anything we miss." Yes I get that this is a universe with space wizards in it, but these ships aren't made from gossamer and fueled by pixie dust. They are engineered and have a sense of scientific reality to them. They aren't run by magic.

I speak of this flaw as an engineering and tactical error. Not one based on metaphysics and magic from the EU.

 

The evidence I gave from Ep6 clearly shows that the shield generators were not shielded... nor did anyone (Akbar, the pilots etc) say "Ok the shields are down... take down the shield generators." It wasn't even implied by what was shown on screen. The first indication that the Executor had lost shields was after the generator had been hit. I don't care why or what the Imperial mindset was at the time of the battle. All I care about is the apparent design flaw. EU hindsight isn't relevant.

[Ghisallo]

@Selenial...

 

If what you said was strictly true then the Canon source books would not call what the MC-80 shields have as an ADVANTAGE over the ISD. I don't say this the EU Canon does...which you ignore.

 

As is typical you look at things myopically. Here is how the two ships stack up defensively (meaning armor and shields) according to Canon.

 

Base MC-80... Superior shield system...yes shields can be taken out by Ion canons BUT the redundant and overlapping nature of the system means that total shield failure is not as likely AND knocking out a single shield generator will not have the same dramatic impact as it does with the ISD.

 

Less armor than an ISD.

 

ISD...more a armor than a MC-80 BUT a less robust shield system.

 

So both ships have flaws...not surprising that the MC-80 has less armor since the base models were simply converted civilian craft... But in isolation the shield system of the ISD is far from optimal and has inherent vulnerabilities.

 

This isn't saying g the ISD is not superior to the base MC-80 but the CANON (not me) is clear in the fact that the shield domes of the ISD's bridge represents a vulnerability in the design that can be exploited from a tactical and engineering point of view...period.

Edited May 4, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Wolfninjajedi]

It's been that way since Ep6. Even the EU didn't diverge from that fact. Any official or standard schematic, layout or blueprint shows that there are only two deflector shield generators on an Imperial Class Star Destroyer and they are they are mounted above the bridge superstructure. All official illustrations label them and only them as the source of deflector shields.

 

For those writing about battle meditation. I have a hard time seeing how Kuat Drive Yards could have said "Hey battle meditation will cover up anything we miss." Yes I get that this is a universe with space wizards in it, but these ships aren't made from gossamer and fueled by pixie dust. They are engineered and have a sense of scientific reality to them. They aren't run by magic.

I speak of this flaw as an engineering and tactical error. Not one based on metaphysics and magic from the EU.

 

The evidence I gave from Ep6 clearly shows that the shield generators were not shielded... nor did anyone (Akbar, the pilots etc) say "Ok the shields are down... take down the shield generators." It wasn't even implied by what was shown on screen. The first indication that the Executor had lost shields was after the generator had been hit. I don't care why or what the Imperial mindset was at the time of the battle. All I care about is the apparent design flaw. EU hindsight isn't relevant.

 

Yes I realize that, what I'm asking is, where does it say specifically that the domes aren't also covered by the shielding?

[Angedechu]

Arent't Mon Cal shields in various blisters around the ship ?

 

(And thus pefectly visible and targetable by any reasonably modern starfighter ?)

 

As for the shields, you can't blame the Imperials for creating the only piece of techology in the whole galaxy which will not to the standard Star Trek engineering failure upon being hit (IE, shower of sparks and electrocution followed by explosions if not on the heroes ship) There are pretty valid reasons to put in a relatively secluded location giant devices that are prone to explode extremely violently when overloading.

Edited May 4, 2015 by Angedechu