The Prophesy - I don't get it

[DarthDymond]

The mess isn't that the Father's view on Anakin's destiny changes over the course of the events of the episode, that's fine as far as a developing plot goes.

 

The mess is that the trilogy is inconsistent on whether it wants to say that Balance = Balance between the Dark Side and the Light Side, which the Father's dialogue in Overlords and the imagery throughout seem to endorse, or whether Balance = overcoming the Dark Side, which the Father's dialogue in Altar and Ghosts seems to endorse when he is trying to keep the Son from 'falling to the Dark Side'.

[Beniboybling]

Well again I think if you compare this with Yoda conquering but also accepting rather than destroying his dark side in Season 6, it makes more sense. I don't think balance in the Force endorses the Sith at all, because Sith are not balanced, they are totally consumed by the dark side and practice it without restraint. That was what the Son was becoming, and that is why he sought to leave the planet, because he was totally corrupted and lusted for power.

 

Simply put the dark side needs to be tamed and controlled. The Sith are under no definition tame or controlled, they therefore must be destroyed in order for balance in the Force to be maintained, because they are a threat to it.

 

Jedi on the other hand can and are far more balanced, because they have a dark side, but they don't let it control them. The Son in that respect is essentially to the Force what Dark Yoda is to Yoda.

[Beniboybling]

Father: "what did you see?"

Anakin: "a dark future that I can't let happen"

Father: "you future can be changed due to what you should have never known. You must forget what you have seen if the balance is to be maintained"

Anakin: "but I will cause so much pain..." <passes out>

But that's rather poor paraphrasing, because that is not what the Father says:

The Father: What did he show you?

Anakin: I have seen what I become, and I cannot let that happen.

The Father: And for this you join him? Your destiny can change just as quickly as the love in one's heart can fade. Nothing is set in stone.

He's saying you can't predict the future, and whatever the Son has shown him won't necessarily come to pass. Which is the same advice Yoda gives to Luke when he saw the future, and what Yoda should have told Anakin.

 

He's trying to convince Anakin not to take reckless action based on what might happen, he's not saying that Anakin is a threat now he has aquired the power to challenge the solidity of the future, and that that knowledge must be erased so the future is set in stone, which would totally contradict the sentiment being delivered here.

 

However his appeal fails. He realises Anakin can't escape what he has seen, and so he erases it. He realises that the Son is threatening the Cosmic Balance by manipulating and corrupting the Chosen One, and he's also threatening the Father's goal of restoring balance to his own world, which he cannot do with Anakin's cooperation.

 

He's not referring or at all endorsing Anakin's fall to the dark side, again there is no evidence to suggest that the Father was aware of how things would pan out, and he has little basis to make any kind of accurate prediction.

 

And again, if we interpret this arc as a reflection/mimicry of events to come, the corruption of Anakin, performed by Darth Sidious in place of the Son, is a perversion of the Force's will and a threat to the cosmic balance of the Force.

 

So, in light of that, would you like a proper translation?

The Father: What did the Son do to make you join him?

Anakin: He showed me a terrible future, I have to prevent it.

The Father: That's a bad reason, the future is always in motion duh.

Anakin: Yeah but...

The Father: No buts fool! I'm erasing your memories, I'm not going to let the Son mess **** up.

Which makes a great deal more sense than your perverse interpretation.

[Ghisallo]

Beni I already explained previously that you are not taking it in context. The context is that in knowing your precise future you can avoid it...thus it is changeable. In removing the memory it now will happen as intended. This is a rather standard time traveling trope.

 

I understand that the Jedi being purged being necessary is not a popular idea for ya but if you check out the Star Wars: The Clone Wars: The Complete Season Three commentary makes it pretty clear though...I think he spelled it out because he knew changing his mind would cause some confusion.

[Beniboybling]

No its not, I provided the actual contexts and meaning above.

[Ghisallo]

The mess isn't that the Father's view on Anakin's destiny changes over the course of the events of the episode, that's fine as far as a developing plot goes.

 

The mess is that the trilogy is inconsistent on whether it wants to say that Balance = Balance between the Dark Side and the Light Side, which the Father's dialogue in Overlords and the imagery throughout seem to endorse, or whether Balance = overcoming the Dark Side, which the Father's dialogue in Altar and Ghosts seems to endorse when he is trying to keep the Son from 'falling to the Dark Side'.

 

The Altar and Ghost thing is because of context. There it is the Dark side throwing things off balance so the Dark side is the problem in that specific instance, not the cosmic necessity. Under opposite circumstances he would have been talking about the light.

[Ghisallo]

Edit: I also think one of the things that causes an issue is this. In the Commentary Lucas causes the Light the selfless and the Dark the selfish. At least with the Jedi the selfless tend, on the main, to be reactive. If everything "looks good", people are holding hands and singing kumbai etc. they go into a static mode. The Jedi in the PT is a perfect example of this. They thought the Sith were gone so they did not prepare for war...they kinda went on auto pilot and got trapped in tradition and dogma. The "selfish" however are ALWAYs in motion, dynamic rather than static. They are always looking to gain advantage over others, serve their own interests at the expense of others, whether through manipulation or outright abuse.

 

Because of the different dynamics there is an appearance that the selfish are the ones that need to be kept in check because it results in chaos and overt destruction. Eventually it will destroy even itself.

 

The thing is the problem with the selfless that has to be controlled is that if there is not an outside force for them to react to it leads to what amounts to either a featureless existence as there is no driving force to empower change, growth and creativity. In essence instead of consuming itself it simply crumbles under its own weight.

[JGHopkins]

The Altar and Ghost thing is because of context. There it is the Dark side throwing things off balance so the Dark side is the problem in that specific instance, not the cosmic necessity. Under opposite circumstances he would have been talking about the light.

 

by definition that's opposite. strictly going by what's canon Father specifically says that Son has chosen the dark side and is allowing it to feed is anger and hunger for power. To me this implies that although Son may represent the dark side, it wasn't consuming him until recently. It's not his natural state to be as powerful as he is.

 

The Mortis Arc, as far as I can tell, is suppose to be a microcosm of the prophecy as a whole. So if the problem in the Mortis arc isn't that the dark side exists, But that it's become to powerful and hungry Doesn't that imply by extension that the imbalance in the force in general is the dark side.

 

The daughter being destroyed is just the arc playing out like the movies do. With each character representing something. Father=Anakin, Daughter=Jedi, Son=Sidious/Palpatine

 

Daughter (Jedi) is killed by Son (Sidious via order 66) and the only way to bring balance again is by Father (Anakin) killing himself to destroy Son (Anakin throwing Sidious over the side of the reactor and dying in the process.)

 

The Jedi being wiped out didn't help restore balance, it was a side effect of the dark side becoming so overwhelmingly powerful that the Jedi couldn't see because of how dark things had become. Just like Sister dying was caused by her being unable to see the evil her brother was, even though it was right in front of her, until it was to late. The Jedi didn't see the danger of Palpatine until it was to late, even though it was right in front of them.

 

The two sides light and dark exist together you need one for the other (selfish and selfless), but those sides need balance, which isn't controlled by how many Jedi or Sith their are. The implication I got is still that Sidious himself (and more than likely Plagueis) managed to upset that balance. It was restored once Anakin Killed sidious allowing the force to return to it's proper balance of light and dark.

 

 

According to Lucas the dark and light generally mean selfishness and selflessness.

 

Sith can't balance because they tend not to be Selfless, strictly selfish. MORE POWER, MORE ANGER etc. they care little for other only themselves and what they can get out of a certain situation. (yes the EU has sith that act different than that, but canonically we haven't seen one)

 

Jedi are more balanced (whether they know it or not) by knowing they need to do things for themselves but being able to use that selfless attitude needed to live peacefully with others. (I.E. Fighting to save their own lives=selfish but fighting to save other=selfless)

Edited April 25, 2015 by JGHopkins

[Ghisallo]

The Jedi being wiped out didn't help restore balance, it was a side effect of the dark side becoming so overwhelmingly powerful that the Jedi couldn't see because of how dark things had become. Just like Sister dying was caused by her being unable to see the evil her brother was, even though it was right in front of her, until it was to late. The Jedi didn't see the danger of Palpatine until it was to late, even though it was right in front of them.

 

I think you are missing what I meant. You are right. The jedi being destroyed didn't restore the balance.

 

What I am saying is this. You can not have a Jedi order thousands strong WITHOUT the Sith and have balance. Picture a set of hold school scales held by Lady Justice. They were tilted BUT not too far to the Light before Plagueis did his "thing". When he did his "things the scales were bouncing all over the place... it basically destabilized the force. So Now we need the Chosen one and Midi-Chlorians deliver. The thing is if Anakin would have just destroyed Palpatine when Mace had him on the ground, yeah they scales would stop waving all over the place BUT it would SLAM down on the light side.... causing as big a problem as if it slammed down on the dark.

 

Luke and Leia and Ben are still around so even with Vader and Palpatine ruling the Empire it's all good....by the Time Luke is ready to Confront the Emperor and Anakin/Vader ready to fulfill the final prophecy, They have trained enough dark side adepts (I still think the whole "their can only be 2" is kinda shakey because of the Inquisitors but that is just me) that there is still an acceptable balance.

[JGHopkins]

I think you are missing what I meant. You are right. The jedi being destroyed didn't restore the balance.

 

What I am saying is this. You can not have a Jedi order thousands strong WITHOUT the Sith and have balance. Picture a set of hold school scales held by Lady Justice. They were tilted BUT not too far to the Light before Plagueis did his "thing". When he did his "things the scales were bouncing all over the place... it basically destabilized the force. So Now we need the Chosen one and Midi-Chlorians deliver. The thing is if Anakin would have just destroyed Palpatine when Mace had him on the ground, yeah they scales would stop waving all over the place BUT it would SLAM down on the light side.... causing as big a problem as if it slammed down on the dark.

 

Luke and Leia and Ben are still around so even with Vader and Palpatine ruling the Empire it's all good....by the Time Luke is ready to Confront the Emperor and Anakin/Vader ready to fulfill the final prophecy, They have trained enough dark side adepts (I still think the whole "their can only be 2" is kinda shakey because of the Inquisitors but that is just me) that there is still an acceptable balance.

 

I don't quite understand where your getting that though. It's never implied that the amount of Jedi vs. Sith tips the balance. They just manipulate the force already there...The implication is that the force is tipping to far to the dark side , not that it's bouncing all over the place...If you have a thousand Jedi and 4 sith as long as they aren't specifically messing with the balance than the force is still balanced. and vice versa having a thousand sith and 4 Jedi doesn't change the natural balance unless it's a deliberate act.

 

If Anakin killed sidious when he was fighting Mace Windu, balance would still be restored. But like the Father said, he wasn't careful with his heart, his love of Padme made him save Sidious therefore the prophecy came true...eventually. But Father said the future isn't set in stone. It's possible the prophecy could have been fulfilled much earlier if Anakin had kept control of his heart, he could have killed Sidious, the Jedi order would have survived and balance would still be restored because the outside influence of Sidious was gone.

 

It's never implied the Jedi can't exist without the Sith, just that the light can't exist without the dark. Selfishness without selflessness

 

Son is a perfect example...Father Son and Daughter seemed to live in peace until Sidious and Plagueis. Son takes on traits specific to Sidious, most notably tempting Anakin to the dark side with promises of peace...there isn't a "bouncing" of power between Daughter and Son, Son is shown to be consistently more powerful...because the darkside was overpowering the light due to experiments by Plagueis and Sidious....Anakin was the antibody to the imbalance cause by those 2.

 

 

I'll try and simplify this

 

TRUE balance between light and dark is the forces natural state, like ying and yang, not like a scale.

 

 

Balance has NOTHING to do with how many Dark or Light side user there are and EVERYTHING to do with the natural state. Scales are a bad illustration, a better concept is ying and yang.

 

light and dark are both necessary but not Jedi and Sith. The simply manipulate the force that already exists.

 

Sidious and Plagueis caused a deliberate imbalance in the force, Anakin was created by the force to stop the imblance (I.E. Sidious since plagueis is already dead) Balance is restored NOT when both Jedi and Sith are wiped out, BUT when Sidious influence is removed.

 

Anakin was at a crossroad when Mace was fighting Sidious (as implied in the scene) He could either fulfill the prophecy there and then by choosing the selfless path (light) (if he had maintained his own balance) but he chose the selfish (dark) path and the prophecy took much longer to come true.

 

Sith are never shown to balance the light (selflessness) and dark (selfishness) since they are almost exclusively selfish

 

Jeid are able to balance (whether they think of it like that or not) the Selfless (light) and the Selfish (dark)

Edited April 26, 2015 by JGHopkins

[Ghisallo]

I don't quite understand where your getting that though. It's never implied that the amount of Jedi vs. Sith tips the balance.

 

Yes it is IF you look at everything in context AND include Lucas' "out of story" interviews. (I will try to avoid my typical wall of text here)

 

Step one... Chosen One = bringing balance too the force.

Step two... Chosen One has his encounters with "the ones"

a. during his encounter he is shown the future that is RoTS

b. Father wipes said memory from his mind saying that if he does not forget the balance will not be restored.

Step three... ORGINALLY Lcas said that restoring balance just meant destroyin the Sith.

Step four... Lucas changes and says that restoring balance means keeping BOTH the dark and light in check.

 

Okay so here is what we got.

Originally it was just about killing Sidious (step 3). SO yes in Lucas' head maintaining the balance is INDEED about the Jedi and the Sith... period end of story.

 

We may think it's stupid. That in a great big universe one or two of many factions should not be that big a deal but this is Lucas' world. In his mind the Jedi ARE the TRUE bearers of the Light and the Sith the TRUE bringers of darkness... period. Everyone else is an "almost there" kinda force wielder. This is how George sees it.

 

Next we look at how he has changed the definition of the Chosen one....from simply destroying Sidious (in which case yeah, wiping out the jedi is not a necessity) to keeping dark AND light both in check.(step 4)

 

Next we look at the fact that the Father, upon finding out what Anakin saw, wiped it from his mind. IF he did NOT have to destroy the Jedi to balance the light...if it was just about wacking Sidious... then there is no need to do that. Who cares if Anakin knows he was going to do all that horrible stuff....let him know so he can just help Mace take down Sidious in the offices. Lives are saved and the balance is still restored right? (step 2 a)

 

NO that can not be because if he doesn't wack the jedi order too then, Just like Father says at the beginning of the story arch... too much Light OR dark would destroy the Galaxy as we know it. We have too much light (because in Lucas' mind the Jedi are the Light bearers, THE selfless) and so the galaxy still goes to crap.(step 2 b)

 

It is implied to the point that LucasFilms may as well have been beating us over the head with a 2x4. The only reason why someone may not see that is because they do not want to accept that George went from a Good vs Evil... the Evil but be destroyed and the Good 110% triumph to something more Light Michael Moorcock's concept of Order and Chaos where if the servants of either are victorious everything goes to hell...one just goes top hell violently while the other simply slowly goes to hell in slow decay.

Edited April 26, 2015 by Ghisallo

[JGHopkins]

Yes it is IF you look at everything in context AND include Lucas' "out of story" interviews. (I will try to avoid my typical wall of text here)

 

Step one... Chosen One = bringing balance too the force.

Step two... Chosen One has his encounters with "the ones"

a. during his encounter he is shown the future that is RoTS

b. Father wipes said memory from his mind saying that if he does not forget the balance will not be restored.

Step three... ORGINALLY Lcas said that restoring balance just meant destroyin the Sith.

Step four... Lucas changes and says that restoring balance means keeping BOTH the dark and light in check.

 

Okay so here is what we got.

Originally it was just about killing Sidious (step 3). SO yes in Lucas' head maintaining the balance is INDEED about the Jedi and the Sith... period end of story.

 

We may think it's stupid. That in a great big universe one or two of many factions should not be that big a deal but this is Lucas' world. In his mind the Jedi ARE the TRUE bearers of the Light and the Sith the TRUE bringers of darkness... period. Everyone else is an "almost there" kinda force wielder. This is how George sees it.

 

Next we look at how he has changed the definition of the Chosen one....from simply destroying Sidious (in which case yeah, wiping out the jedi is not a necessity) to keeping dark AND light both in check.(step 4)

 

Next we look at the fact that the Father, upon finding out what Anakin saw, wiped it from his mind. IF he did NOT have to destroy the Jedi to balance the light...if it was just about wacking Sidious... then there is no need to do that. Who cares if Anakin knows he was going to do all that horrible stuff....let him know so he can just help Mace take down Sidious in the offices. Lives are saved and the balance is still restored right? (step 2 a)

 

NO that can not be because if he doesn't wack the jedi order too then, Just like Father says at the beginning of the story arch... too much Light OR dark would destroy the Galaxy as we know it. We have too much light (because in Lucas' mind the Jedi are the Light bearers, THE selfless) and so the galaxy still goes to crap.(step 2 b)

 

It is implied to the point that LucasFilms may as well have been beating us over the head with a 2x4. The only reason why someone may not see that is because they do not want to accept that George went from a Good vs Evil... the Evil but be destroyed and the Good 110% triumph to something more Light Michael Moorcock's concept of Order and Chaos where if the servants of either are victorious everything goes to hell...one just goes top hell violently while the other simply slowly goes to hell in slow decay.

 

See this is where you and I are going to have to agree to disagree

 

I'm gonna try and break this up cause these always end up being walls of text

 

 

Going by George Lucas interview

“The core of The Force, I mean you got the Dark Side, the Light side, one is selfless, one is selfish and you want to keep them in balance.” He also spoke of the selflessness of the Jedi, but he did not say that should not be selfish at all. Simply put, in this video he stated that these two things needed to be in “balance.”

 

The Jedi we see can balance these two aspects, they defend themselves and others .

We are never shown a Sith being Selfless. Sidious is obvious, but Anakin didn't become a Sith until he made the most seflish decision. and was considered redeemed once he killed someone (seflish) in defense of someone else (selfless)

 

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The symbol of the castle in the Mortis arc is http://th08.deviantart.net/fs70/PRE/f/2011/046/5/b/the_force_symbols_by_risiavyle-d39n3cf.jpg

 

 

 

There is a little Son in the Daughters logo and vice verse. We saw the Daughter be selfish, she attacked her brother to saver herself, Daughter was abalanced. And going by the logo and the Daughters reaction to her brothers turn, we can assume that the son use to balance his selfish and selfless sides. But that the son has lost his selflessness. More than likely he use to care for Father and Daughter, but became obsessed with power and became selfish to the point he attacked the 2 people he cared about.

 

 

Father wiped Anakins memory because Anakin was getting ready to take Son into the normal realm of existence as a MASSIVE counter-reaction to seeing himself turn dark. Father states right as he wipes Anakins memory that the future is in motion and Anakin should beware his heart, the ""If there is to be balance, what you have seen must be forgotten." Father says this because Anakin was getting ready to submit to Son and allow Sons influence to affect the force, even if Sidious would be dead Son would still exist throwing the force out of balance.

 

Even if that future was set in stone, the fact of the matter would still be that the Jedi being wiped out was merely a side effect of the imbalance of the force, of the dark side being so inherently powerful, not of some massive imbalance in the Jedi. We are only given a hypothetical situation that to much light is just as bad. We are never shown it and it's never implied that if only the Sith are wiped there will be another massive power shift to the light. WE are only told that to much of one is bad and shown what happens when to much selfishness (darkness) overtakes someone.

 

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I'll give a real world example.

 

Someone who is totally selfish, doesn't care about anyone or anything is a danger....no compassion or empathy

 

Someone who is totally Selfless cannot exist, the closest we would have is Jesus, but even then he ate meat and got angry sometimes.

 

Someone who is balanced would be a normal person. Drive a car, eat the flesh of living things. But help the old neighbor lady take out the trash, or make sure someone who falls is OK.

 

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Star wars is about good vs evil..yes

 

The force is about balancing the selfish and selfless

 

those 2 things are not mutually exclusive, and by assuming they are your showing your close mindedness.

 

Sidious is evil, He has no compassion, no balance. Anakin has to allow his good (selfless) side to overcome his bad (pure selfish) side. Once Vader balanced those two, selfless and selfish (I.e. killing = selfish but saving at the expense of his life=selfless) he becomes redeemed and balanced once again and destroys Sidious.

 

Good vs Evil

Balance vs. Imbalance.

Edited April 26, 2015 by JGHopkins

[Ghisallo]

When you write you reasons though you are, to an extent, editorializing. Allowing personal prejudices and the like to come in. I purposely go "Mr. Spock" mode. Example...you say..

 

He also spoke of the selflessness of the Jedi, but he did not say that should not be selfish at all.

And

We are never shown a Sith being Selfless

 

It does matter what we see and do not see. Lucas says the Jedi represent the selfless and the Sith the selfish. That's it...period. So the Jedi are the selfless that must be balanced against the selfish Sith. Sorry but "he never said the Jedi should not be selfish at all" to try and undercut the initial point is like the kid caught with his hand in the cookie jar saying "daddy said I couldn't have a cookie when I asked before dinner he didn't say I could after dinner."

 

As for the Son and Daughter you miss that the are anthropomorphic. The selfless must fight against the selfish...to preserve the balance (the Daughter issue). Her act is not suddenly a "selfish" act. If the selfless did not do this then there would be no "Chosen one" of a prophecy, rather there would be an omnipresent third actor on the stage to constantly maintain balance in the outside world.

 

This is actuall quite well illustrated by the Ones. The father is the omnipresent third actor and actions from "outside" were influencing the two beyond what he could control at this point. The outside world does not have such an omnipresent being.

 

The Father did not have to wipe Akakin's memory to stop the Son. Look at how Anakin clearly says "but I cause so much pain". Instead of wiping the mind The Father could just say " trust me" set up the final scene...fall on Sons blade, Anakin stab son in back...Anakin returns to the "normal" world know what is to come and then never go dark.

 

I really think though everything you post flows from the initial editorialization. You need to understand George...if you read all his stuff, even as he has changed things more than once, he is NOT a subtle guy. He writes stories with a paint brush you would use to paint your house, not one you would use for calligraphy. So when he says the Jedi are "the selfless" he means that....stop there. Any inconsistencies you may see later are meant to be ignored because George ignores them. (I can go down a list if you want)

 

One you acknowledge the sad fact that George is good with the broad strokes, but SUCKs with details, and look at the stories with that light...with all the cliches and inconsistencies that it brings. Then you see what I am seeing.

Edited April 26, 2015 by Ghisallo

[ryanthedark]

There is always Dark and there is always Light. Too much of either is no good. That's why Old Republic Era is awesome. Lots of Sith and Jedi. Lots of wars but stuff is cool and balanced.

[SlthBounteHuntah]

The way I see it, Vader destroyed the Jedi and the Sith. This is what brought balance to the Force. The Jedi just didn't realise this is how balance would be restored.

 

But then again, Luke was a Jedi when the Sith were destroyed. Would this not throw off the balance? Maybe the dark side user in Episode VII restores this? Ahhhhhhh? So many questions.