Triomph/Vanquish Sage/Sorcerer DoT Bug

[EloM-AlYannoel]

Since 3.0 (already reported in game) and as it was not fixed in 3.1.2, I report here a bug attested in dummy training with a sage (I don't have ou known a Sorcerer to test imperial conterpart and it can't happend for shadow/assassin).

 

The most noticeable part of the bug is that when the Presence of mind is up to is fourth stack while the DoT part of a Triomph is still running, the damages done will increase.

When trying to investigate and reproduce it, I also saw that

- the initial bonus of the presence of mind is 20% (25% in theorie)

- it variate when there are no armor reduction on the target.

 

 

Here a (partial french) combat log without auto-proc relic or 2 pieces set bonus proc to show it.

 

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1p0YNXXnFE68bwTccWzo-CdEAlWyvUQMdD4NQhyCdL-8/edit?usp=sharing

 

 

For clarity, I organise the value :

 

http://imageshack.com/a/img538/8908/e4bNS4.png

 

25 % / ((Activation / Cast) - 1) = 100 % + x %

<=> Activation / Cast = ( 100 % + x % + 25 %) / ( 100 % + x %)

Witch is a matematical form of : "If I add two boni of 25 and x % to a base of 100% and only know ( 100 % + x % + 25 %) and ( 100 % + x %), what is the value of x ?"

 

1st part : 20% damage buff and double buff

 

We can see that in "With training armor reduction module" and with "No PoM Cast", a bonus of 25 % led to a x = 10 %, witch is the bonus Drain Thoughts passive point (lvl 36), and with "PoM activation", X = 30 %, witch is a 20 % over the precedent 10 % Buff and can only be explained by a 20 % buff of PoM.

 

This insuficient buff is confirmed by the two PoM / ( (Activation / Cast) - 1 ) lines :

- A PoM buff of 25 % led to a x = 37 %, witch don't make sense.

- A PoM buff of 20 % led to a x = 10 %, witch is again the "Drain Thoughts" buff.

 

 

 

EDIT : The two following part can be explained by ceazare here.

2nd part : training dummy armor reduction module vs 5% Vulnerable

 

The second part "Without training armor reduction module" show the same value with a bonus of approximately 5 % in all cases. It could be interpreted as the Force Damage Bonus given by the Triomph main damage, but it should have also been given by the training armor reduction module and should have be seen in the "With training armor reduction module".

 

3rd part : training dummy armor reduction module and armor damage reduction %

 

"With / Without training armor reduction module" part seems to show a variation in the damage-reduction by armor rating, or by the armor reduction effect, or by the Triumph, with a lower reduction rate for high damages tics. I don't even know how to interprete it as it may be a part of the Triumph bug, I add it here.

 

 

Apart for signaling it, I also ask for a official position for this bug, as keeping the PoM for buffing Triumph damage can be seen as a bug-using, but immediately use the PoM on a Disturbance is a major constraint in the damage rotation, even buffed Disturbance dealing very low damages.

 

Thank you for paying attention and sorry for english mistakes.

Edited April 13, 2015 by EloM-AlYannoel

[ceazare]

I'm sorry, parts of your post and combat log are slightly difficult to read (I should restart learning French some day ), but I can try to reply anyway.

 

First off, yes, Presence of Mind is a 20 % damage increase, even though tooltip says 25 %.

 

Then there is another bug which makes stacking of buffs and debuffs work differently when you apply Dummy Armor Reduction Module, I wrote about that here: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=786798

 

I gave Vanquish as an example in that topic, so it should explain the strange variations you/ve experienced. Let me know if it doesn't!

Edited April 11, 2015 by ceazare

[EloM-AlYannoel]

I'm sorry, parts of your post and combat log are slightly difficult to read (I should restart learning French some day ), but I can try to reply anyway.

 

I didn't except anyone out of the team should take time to read it. I add here the translations :

 

Éradication = Vanquish

Écrasement (éradication) = Crushed (Vanquish)

 

Coupe-Force = Sever Force

Affaiblissement d'esprit = Weaken Mind

 

Lancer télékinétique = Telekinetic Throw

Force ondulatoire = Rippling Force

 

Armure en morceaux = training armor reduction module

Éradication: Vulnérable (Force) = Vulnerable

Présence d'esprit = Presence of Mind

 

I don't use Force in Balance or Force Serenity to reduce variations in damages dealt.

 

I also see a error in a copy-past part :

- A PoM buff of 25 % led to a x = 37 %, witch don't make sense.

- A PoM buff of 25 % led to a x = 10 %, witch is again the "Drain Thoughts" buff.

have been corrected as originaly intended :

- A PoM buff of 25 % led to a x = 37 %, witch don't make sense.

- A PoM buff of 20 % led to a x = 10 %, witch is again the "Drain Thoughts" buff.

 

 

Then there is another bug which makes stacking of buffs and debuffs work differently when you apply Dummy Armor Reduction Module, I wrote about that here: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=786798

I gave Vanquish as an example in that topic, so it should explain the strange variations you/ve experienced. Let me know if it doesn't!

This is a really impressive work whitch will realy help me for future theorycraft (and in argues about the futility of dummy fight comparisons). In few weeks I will have more time to work on this and I will be pleased to test this thing with other classes.

 

It explaned the strange 5 % bonus that I found in the "Without training armor reduction module" part and maybe the "With / Without training armor reduction module", as the armor reduction may worked differently with the training armor reduction module.

 

But the main problem, the augmentation of damage dealt by a Triumph already applied by a 4 stack PoM on the caracter, stay unexplained. If you search for "Écrasement" in starparse, you will see that for a single Triumph DoT, up to 4 values can be seen :

non-crit without PoM

crit without PoM

non-crit with PoM

crit with PoM

 

My crit multiplicator was 68,6 %.

Edited April 12, 2015 by EloM-AlYannoel

[ceazare]

Oh haha, so the dot part of a hardcast Vanquish still gets the 20 % Presence of Mind buff, even though you only get 4 stacks of it after using Vanquish. Nice find! Although I don't think it changes the way the spec plays much. Well except maybe the openers.

 

I'll test it when I can to see if anything is affected similarly, but yea it looks like you found another bug with that spec.

 

Also if you need a headstart with theorycrafting, I wrote down the way buffs/debuffs stack somewhere. I can send them.

Edited April 12, 2015 by ceazare

[EloM-AlYannoel]

This is even more powerfull, as it is a 25 % additive bonus cumulative with the 20 % give by the no-cast activation buff, for a total of 45 % additive bonus damage for the DoT part. This was so powerfull in pré-3.1.2 that a TKT right after au Triumph had an higher priority than an Force in Balance or a Force Serenity. And it will be more powerfull now !

 

 

If you have more information that the ones you presents in your thread, I will be pleased to read them. I have to rewrite all my theorycraft calculator now.

[ceazare]

Have you checked if Crushing Darkness (sorcerer version) works that way too?

 

Here's stacking of all abilities in a raid scenario (without Dummy Armor Reduction Module)

 

vulnerable = +5 % force damage
assailable = +7 % internal/elemental damage
overwhelmed = +10 % area damage

FM = Force Master 2 piece set bonus, 2 % damage for 15 seconds
Mind's Eye = +25 % damage to Force Serenity when target is suffering from Weaken Mind
PoM (Presence of Mind) = +20 % damage when activated with 4 PoM stacks
Drain Thoughts = +10 % damage to all dots
Force Supresssion = + 10 % damage to dots that consume a stack of Force Suppression left by Force in Balance
Mental Scarring = +15 % damage to dots on target below 30 % hp
Psychic Projection = -25 % damage to Telekinetic Throw
Tectonic Mastery = +25 % damage to Forcequake (utility)

Force Serenity: (1+ Mind's Eye) * (1 + vulnerable + assailable + FM)
Vanquish: (1 + vulnerable + FM + PoM)
Vanquish dots:  (1 + Drain Thoughts + PoM + FM + vulnerable) * (Force Suppression + 1) * (1 + Mental Scarring)
Mind Crush is the same, also if there is no vulnerable debuff present on target, Vanquish will apply it before doing damage (unlike overwhelmed debuff which is applied after damage of either Force in Balance or TK Wave)
Sever Force: (1 + Drain Thoughts + FM + vulnerable + assailable) * (Force Suppression + 1) * (1 + Mental Scarring)
Weaken Mind: (1 + Drain Thoughts + FM + vulnerable + assailable) * (Force Suppression + 1) * (1 + Mental Scarring)
Force in Balance: (1 + FM + vulnerable + assailable) * (1 + overwhelmed)
Disturbance: (1+ FM + vulnerable + PoM)
Telekinetic Throw: (1 + FM + vulnerable - Psychic Projection)
Rippling Force*: (1 + FM + vulnerable)

Turbulence: (1 + vulnerable + assailable + FM)
Telekinetic Gust: (1 + vulnerable + FM)
Telekinetic Wave: (1 + vulnerable + FM) * (1 + overwhelmed)
Telekinetic Burst: (1 + vulnerable + FM)
same for all procced attacks

Forcequake: (1 + FM + vulnerable + Tectonic Mastery) * (1 + overwhelmed)
Project: (1 + FM + vulnerable) 


*Imperial version of Rippling Force is actually a dot (bug) so for their version it's
(1 + Drain Thoughts + FM + vulnerable) * (1 + Force Suppression) * (1 + Mental Scarring)

[EloM-AlYannoel]

Mind Crushed isn't affected by the first part of the bug, is affected by the second part, witch is as you said part of a armor reduction module bug, and by the third part, witch can be another part of the armor reduction module bug if the damage reduction dealt by the armor is additive with 10% DT + 2% FM + 20% PoM.

 

The complete form of the stacks with armor reduction module should be :

(10% Supp + 5% Vulnerable) * (10% DT + 2% FM + 20% PoM - armor_damage_reduction_%) * 15% Execute

as with the form you wrote, "With armor reduction module" "20 % / ((Activation / Cast) -1)" have been = 0. By don't using Suppression or Force Master, PoM should have been independantly multiplicative.

If the armor damage reduction stay additive without armor reduction module, it should have made armor less effective again damaged-buffed abilites.

 

I will edit (again) the first post to take in count your work on the armor reduction module.

 

 

 

Thanks for the list. Even if the order of application for overwelm matter only for the first application, maybe the Force Potency pull priority will change.

Thanks also for the rippling force bug (have you already reported it ?), it will make me able to do an accurate guide for both classes (only in french, sadly or not ).

Edited April 13, 2015 by EloM-AlYannoel