MC80 Cruiser vs Imperial Star Destroyer

[raandomname]

It is generally agreed that MC80 Cruisers and Imperial Star Destroyers are roughly equal. However, Ive been thinking for quite some time about how exactly the various MC80 models (a, B, Liberty, Home One) compare to ISD1s and ISD2s and how they overcome the tremendous firepower disparity?

Standard compliments for both.

Edited April 7, 2015 by raandomname

[Wolfninjajedi]

ISD really, the only thing the MC80 has is being quicker and having better maneuverability. The backup shield generators help, but in a straight up engagement, the MC80 loses, it's noted that doing so would result in decimation of the Rebel fleet.

 

The Imperial Navy did initially loses several ISDs to the cruisers, but this was because they weren't taking the Mon Cal serious enough. After which, they began to take it seriously and from that....well it's not a good idea for an MC80 to go up against an ISD solo.

 

The ISD outclasses the MC80 in firepower, durability the MC80 gives a slight advantage but tbh I'm not seeing much, the overlapping shields is great, but the ISD can take quite the beating too.

 

Fight compliment, the ISD outdoes the MC80 there too.

Edited April 8, 2015 by Wolfninjajedi

[raandomname]

ISD really, the only thing the MC80 has is being quicker and having better maneuverability. The backup shield generators help, but in a straight up engagement, the MC80 loses, it's noted that doing so would result in decimation of the Rebel fleet.

 

The Imperial Navy did initially loses several ISDs to the cruisers, but this was because they weren't taking the Mon Cal serious enough. After which, they began to take it seriously and from that....well it's not a good idea for an MC80 to go up against an ISD solo.

 

The ISD outclasses the MC80 in firepower, durability the MC80 gives a slight advantage but tbh I'm not seeing much, the overlapping shields is great, but the ISD can take quite the beating too.

 

Fight compliment, the ISD outdoes the MC80 there too.

At least when it comes to the compliments, I have to disagree with you. The Home One Class for example carries more fighters then an ISD and rebel fighters are generally also of better quality.

[Ghisallo]

At least when it comes to the compliments, I have to disagree with you. The Home One Class for example carries more fighters then an ISD and rebel fighters are generally also of better quality.

 

Was going to note the fighter thing. It balances things basically. While an extreme example look at today. The battleship is a relic due to the aircraft carrier. Now Like I said it is not a true analogy but the fighter complimen has to be accounted for when you look at firepower.

 

Also (historically) look at 17th Century Spain vs England. Spain had more ships... bigger ships, more guns but the English navy's ships were faster and more manuverable.

 

All is all the ships are relatively equal, they just use different design and tactical philosophies.

[Wolfninjajedi]

At least when it comes to the compliments, I have to disagree with you. The Home One Class for example carries more fighters then an ISD and rebel fighters are generally also of better quality.

 

I was just going for the MC80 Liberty vs an ISD, not counting the Home One variant.

 

Though there is conflicting issues with the Fighter compliment, one source says 120 and two other sources say 36. I'm tending to go with the 36 one, because 120 just doesn't seem right, especially considering an MC80 is smaller than an ISD.

Edited April 8, 2015 by Wolfninjajedi

[tunewalker]

I think to be fair to the Rebels here, Imps Star Destroyers usually acted on their own or with more Imp Star destroyers, Rebel Vessels like the MC usually were accompanied by Nebulon B's and/or CR90's and of course Hyper Drive capable fighters. Not all the fighters were INSIDE the MC80 most were actually outside.

 

And that's usually what made the difference, the MC80 could keep itself at a decent range using its shields to absorb some of the hits, while the fighters disabled the enemy fighters and then went in. The strong defenses of the MC80's were all that was neccisary as the fighters of the Rebel fleet were the real "muscle"

[Wolfninjajedi]

In taking that account now, the ISD does indeed outclass the MC80 in both firepower and fighter numbers. Sure the MC has better quality fighters, but this doesn't mean much.

 

The TIE fighter and X-wing have the same firepower output with the TIE fighter have a slight edge. The TIE fighter is also more agile and maneuverable than the X-wing, while the X-wing has shielding and durability.

 

The TIE Interceptor matches the A-wing, so nuff said there.

 

Some other stuff, but not in the mood to go into all that.

[Alexeikruchev]

As the point of the thread is comparing the vessels (Not so much their compliments of snub fighters, in which often the victory goes to the Rebels due to fighter superiority), the ISD has it for me. Historically, the one who can hit the hardest the fastest usually wins. And when it comes to capital ships, sublight speeds and maneuverability do not usually factor in to capital ship slugfests. i say this because a large ship is such a large target that it's speed and turning rarely transition into the ship itself dodging incoming fire. Therefore in a slugging match, it would play only a minor role. Also, an ISD would not be able to be outmaneuvered because their raw firepower at any distance where maneuverability woul dmater would overwhelm the Mon Cal defensive edge. That said, the Rebels' defensive mindset was not a bad one: Their purpose was to survive, and evade heavy imperial resistance, and the Mon Cal cruisers provided the firepower to slaughter smaller ships with ease, while being able to cut and run- and endure long enough to do so- once ships like ISD's showed up. They were never meant to fight one on one with ships like ISDs. They were meant to serve as meat-shields and carriers (depending on the chosen tactics involved), while their fighters, and just as critically, (likely more so), supporting ships. The Rebels philosophy relied on using multiple support ships to pin down and overwhelm isolated targets. They were not meant for protracted battle between ships in their own weight classes. So it's no surprise the ISD comes out on top as a battleship.

[Ghisallo]

Tbh this argument seems kinda like the wrong one to be having any who. First because there is NO standard MC80 class. Not only are there 5 basic classes, no single ship within the class is indentical. So just saying MC80 is largely meaningless.

 

Its about tactics and strategy. Do we have battleships anymore? No and it is not because of guided missile frigates and destroyers, it is because of the fact that increasing fast vessels and the use of aircraft made Battleship doctrine almost obsolete in terms of a sea battle. As such the compliment of fighters is absolutely relevant. In the case we have here where "battleships" are carrying fighters they amount to a "force multiplier" of sorts when looking at the firepower the vessels can unleash.

Edited April 14, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Nickious]

Weren't the MC 80s formally civilian design converted to miltary activities? The ISDs were designed specifically for combat in mind. I think the ISDs would probably win.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Tbh this argument seems kinda like the wrong one to be having any who. First because there is NO standard MC80 class. Not only are there 5 basic classes, no single ship within the class is indentical. So just saying MC80 is largely meaningless.

 

Its about tactics and strategy. Do we have battleships anymore? No and it is not because of guided missile frigates and destroyers, it is because of the fact that increasing fast vessels and the use of aircraft made Battleship doctrine almost obsolete in terms of a sea battle. As such the compliment of fighters is absolutely relevant. In the case we have here where "battleships" are carrying fighters they amount to a "force multiplier" of sorts when looking at the firepower the vessels can unleash.

 

The OP specifys which MC80, Liberty type and Home One.

[Ghisallo]

Weren't the MC 80s formally civilian design converted to miltary activities? The ISDs were designed specifically for combat in mind. I think the ISDs would probably win.

 

Its kinda here...there....and back again. They were civilian ships based on a design for a warship, that was turned into a warship. And that was just the ORIGINAL ones (whatever that was...) That were converted. As the produced new ones they were no retrofitted but built rom the ground up military vessels (though based on the basic pseudo-civilian design. It all ends up culminating in the MC80B which was similar enough to be considered the same class but was 100% purpose designed for war.

[Ghisallo]

The OP specifys which MC80, Liberty type and Home One.

 

And A and B (...various MC80 models (a, B, Liberty, Home One) ...) yeah... A and B classes could carry more fighters if so designed... 72 for the A and 8 was eventually upgraded to carrying 8 squadrons (a squadron typically consisting of 12 fighters...)

 

Also your complete low balling of the Home class was kinda...ODD. Especially since the ISDs are 1600 meters long but Mon Calamari Home cruisers could be over 1400 and more in length because again ... No 2 are the same.

 

That is how in the old Canon they got around certain "specs"... Of the pre-A class Cruisers NO two were alike.

[Wolfninjajedi]

And A and B (...various MC80 models (a, B, Liberty, Home One) ...) yeah... A and B classes could carry more fighters if so designed... 72 for the A and 8 was eventually upgraded to carrying 8 squadrons (a squadron typically consisting of 12 fighters...)

 

Also your complete low balling of the Home class was kinda...ODD. Especially since the ISDs are 1600 meters long but Mon Calamari Home cruisers could be over 1400 and more in length because again ... No 2 are the same.

 

That is how in the old Canon they got around certain "specs"... Of the pre-A class Cruisers NO two were alike.

 

Obviously none were alike, I was merely going off of what the Sourcebooks say in regards to typical sizes and the like, I'm not taking into account modifications or anything like that because it can vary.

 

Edit: Ok I seem to have read over something, Ackbar's Home One can hold 120 starfighters. However considering that it's Ackbar's personal ship and the fact it's not a typical Mon Cal cruiser I don't think it should be used.

 

So with that the typical MC80 carries 36 fighters, 20 Ion cannons and 48 turbolasers with 6 tractor beams, according to sourcebooks.

Edited April 14, 2015 by Wolfninjajedi

[Ghisallo]

Obviously none were alike, I was merely going off of what the Sourcebooks say in regards to standard sizes and the like, I'm not taking into account modifications or anything like that because it can vary.

 

Yes but you miss one thing...size is an apples and oranges thing here. A MC80 had multiple fighter bays...vs the single large belly mounted bay of the ISD. Because of the cigar shape of the MC80 this means they can distribute the fighters across a larger "spread" of the vessel. Also keep in mind an MC80 had a crew of less than 6000 per the source books...an ISD had over 6 times that number...(37000 officers and crew).

 

That pretty much cancels out the size difference (1200 even 1400+ meters vs 1600).

 

My point is that it isn't about modifications...there simply is NO Mon Calamari "standard" until the MC80b.

 

Even if there was the A and B are in the discussion per the OP and they CRUSH an ISD I in terms of fighter compliments. And based on what I said about...while yes I would say over 100 is a bit much for a Home... Having more than an ISD I is not out of the question at all.

 

PS I always felt the crew difference between the two types of vessels was odd and with little explanation...but it is what it is.

Edited April 14, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Wolfninjajedi]

Yes but you miss one thing...size is an apples and oranges thing here. A MC80 had multiple fighter bays...vs the single large belly mounted bay of the ISD. Because of the cigar shape of the MC80 this means they can distribute the fighters across a larger "spread" of the vessel. Also keep in mind an MC80 had a crew of less than 6000 per the source books...an ISD had over 6 times that number...(37000 officers and crew).

 

That pretty much cancels out the size difference (1200 even 1400+ meters vs 1600).

 

My point is that it isn't about modifications...there simply is NO Mon Calamari "standard" until the MC80b.

 

Even if there was the A and B are in the discussion per the OP and they CRUSH an ISD I in terms of fighter compliments. And based on what I said about...while yes I would say over 100 is a bit much for a Home... Having more than an ISD I is not out of the question at all.

 

PS I always felt the crew difference between the two types of vessels was odd and with little explanation...but it is what it is.

 

Right there are no set sizes, but I'm going according to Sources, the specs..

 

1,200 meters

 

28 Ion Cannons

 

48 Turbolasers

 

6 Tractor Beams

 

36 Starfighters(A-wing, X-wing, B-wing, Y-wing)

 

This is what a typical MC80 star cruiser is, this is what's noted in 3 different sources. Starships of the Galaxy, New Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels, Rebel Alliance Sourcebook

 

This is what I'm using here...now let's compare this to a typical ISD 1

 

1,600 meters

 

60 Turbolasers

 

60 Ion Cannons

 

10 tractor beams

 

72 TIE fighters(variety) along with gunboats, skiprays etc

Edited April 14, 2015 by Wolfninjajedi

[Ghisallo]

Right there are no set sizes, but I'm going according to Sources, the specs..

 

1,200 meters

 

28 Ion Cannons

 

48 Turbolasers

 

6 Tractor Beams

 

36 Starfighters(A-wing, X-wing, B-wing, Y-wing)

 

This is what a typical MC80 star cruiser is, this is what's noted in 3 different sources. Starships of the Galaxy, New Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels, Rebel Alliance Sourcebook

 

This is what I'm using here...now let's compare this to a typical ISD 1

 

1,600 meters

 

60 Turbolasers

 

60 Ion Cannons

 

10 tractor beams

 

72 TIE fighters(variety) along with gunboats, skiprays etc

 

And there are other canon sources that contradict your single source. You are picking the one source convenient to your argument AND ignoring that that the A and B classes carried more.... Heck you even omitted the A and B classes when you claimed what the OP spoke of... Even when the OP specifically noted these two classes...

Edited April 14, 2015 by Ghisallo

[raandomname]

PS I always felt the crew difference between the two types of vessels was odd and with little explanation...but it is what it is.

That kinda makes sense imo.

1. the standard MC80 is smaller

2. the rebels had access to way less personel. I thimk that this is the main reason

3. while Im not saying that the MC is better, Mon Cal ships seem in general to be more high-tech and so the MC probably has more automated systems

4. the MC80 has much less weapons and thus requires less gunners

[Wolfninjajedi]

And there are other canon sources that contradict your single source. You are picking the one source convenient to your argument AND ignoring that that the A and B classes carried more.... Heck you even omitted the A and B classes when you claimed what the OP spoke of... Even when the OP specifically noted these two classes...

 

Actually no, there aren't any other sources that contradict the armaments of an ISD.

 

Also I think were getting wries crossed here, I was guessing when the OP said A and B, he was referring to the Liberty and Home one in the quotes, not the other classes.

 

Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels, Imperial Sourcebook 2nd edition, New Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels, they all say the same thing about the ISD.

 

At any rate, I was merely just comparing the ISDs to the Liberty and Home One types, I wasn't taking into account the A, B ones.

Edited April 14, 2015 by Wolfninjajedi

[raandomname]

Actually no, there aren't any other sources that contradict the armaments of an ISD.

 

Also I think were getting wries crossed here, I was guessing when the OP said A and B, he was referring to the Liberty and Home one in the quotes, not the other classes.

 

Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels, Imperial Sourcebook 2nd edition, New Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels, they all say the same thing about the ISD.

No, I actually ment all 4 types.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Ok so duh, of course the A, B ones destroy an ISD or ISD 2, they outgun and out fighter them. The ISDs take the win over the Liberty and Home one types though. Edited April 14, 2015 by Wolfninjajedi

[raandomname]

Ok so duh, of course the A, B ones destroy an ISD or ISD 2, they outgun and out fighter them. The ISDs take the win over the Liberty and Home one types though.

Doesnt the ISD2 have a similar if not greater armagement to the MC80a and MC80B?

[Wolfninjajedi]

Doesnt the ISD2 have a similar if not greater armagement to the MC80a and MC80B?

 

Wait, wait...now I'm just getting confused, I'm having conflicting sources here regarding the A and B. I'll get back to this, when I've sorted everything out.

Edited April 14, 2015 by Wolfninjajedi

[raandomname]

Wait, wait...now I'm just getting confused, I'm having conflicting sources here regarding the A and B. I'll get back to this, when I've sorted everything out.

Alright. Curious to see what you find out.

[tunewalker]

Wasnt the Home One type larger AND stronger then the A OR B type. I was under the imperession the Home one Type was the biggest and Strongest of the MC80's....