Philosophical question about light saber styles...

[Fyurii]

Finally a lightsaber form has many different aspects, I don't see why one aspect couldn't be extrapolated into a new and different form.

 

Indeed, and this does happen in the real word too.

The opening post itself even makes mention of one of the more famous examples of someone doing that - Bruce Lee and his creation of Jeet Kune Do.

 

Going into a frame of mind whereby I'm in the SW universe and at least twenty years younger, Niman would certainly come across as a logical next step after Shii-Cho in terms of expanding on lightsaber proficiency, and as an "entry" form into forms 3 to 5.

[Ghisallo]

Ghisallo despite me posting the entry on Niman for you, I'm not convinced you read it. You keep claiming that the games defined Niman, that the games made it the moderation form, that the games made it less intensive.

 

But like, none of this is true! Let me make it a little more clear by highlighting key parts of the Insider for you:

This Form balances the emphases of other forms with overall moderation...

 

...

 

...It is considered a "diplomat's Form" because it is less intensive in its demands than other disciplines...

 

...

 

However, full masters of other Forms sometimes consider Form VI to be insufficiently demanding.

So given that (I suggest you read the entire entry for all the details) we can answer the following:

 

 

1. Did the games establish Niman as the moderation form? No.
    
    
   
2. Did the games establish Niman as the diplomats form? No.
    
    
   
3. Did the games establish Niman as a less intensive form? No.
   

 

The devil is indeed in the details, but you seem to be ignoring them. So what did the games establish? Not much really. The only really addition apparent to me is that Niman also became the Consular's form. That it became a style favored not only by those who wished to focus on the study of politics and negotiation, but the Force as well.

 

I don't really find that problematic however, Niman is a form that allows you to concentrate on non-martial skills, this doesn't necessarily need to be politics, there is no reason why it could not be the Force, or history, or something else.

 

Finally a lightsaber form has many different aspects, I don't see why one aspect couldn't be extrapolated into a new and different form. Or have an originally dual wielding form reconstructing as suitable for single blade combat.

 

P.S. The game mechanics in KOTOR are just that, game mechanics, I wouldn't pay them much attention.

 

No I did read it...sorry if I wasn't clear but the Canon says elsewhere that Niman was basically the Light Saber adoption of Jar'Kai, a dual bladed HARD to learn/master form.

 

My issue is as always with the inconsistencies. You have statements of here saying it is the "diplomats" forms... statements over there which have it born of an aggressive DW form...and we even see this aggressive DW nature in practice with Exar Kun...who most people, if not everyone, acknowledges as a Niman practitioner. Then we also have its more aggressive and intense function shown with the Exile if you roll Sentinel.

 

So which is it? If the origin story was logic, descriptions and example in practice etc were consistent I would be sitting in my corner. However they are not consistent and this is my issue.

[Ghisallo]

Indeed, and this does happen in the real word too.

The opening post itself even makes mention of one of the more famous examples of someone doing that - Bruce Lee and his creation of Jeet Kune Do.

 

Going into a frame of mind whereby I'm in the SW universe and at least twenty years younger, Niman would certainly come across as a logical next step after Shii-Cho in terms of expanding on lightsaber proficiency, and as an "entry" form into forms 3 to 5.

 

See that isn't what Bruce did. He believed intently that having style was wrong. He believed that one should practice not forms or styles but rather, in essence, practice the opponent. You do not learn Niman, Soresu, Shien, Ataru etc and then blend them into a new style... style should simply not exist. Did he come to this revelation by learning numerous styles of Martial Arts himself and seeing how the "dogma" of each created limitation? Yes indeed he did, but the revelation he learned was not to learn styles and modify them but rather to have no style. That is what he means when he say "be water my friend".

Edited April 4, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Fyurii]

See that isn't what Bruce did. He believed intently that having style was wrong. He believed that one should practice not forms or styles but rather, in essence, practice the opponent... Did he come to this revelation by learning numerous styles of Martial Arts himself and seeing how the "dogma" of each created limitation? Yes indeed he did, but the revelation he learned was not to learn styles and modify them but rather to have no style. That is what he means when he say "be water my friend".

 

You're misunderstanding his intent.

When he says "be water", he means to move with fluidity, for each action to flow into the next one seamlessly.

The "lack of style" is a case of not using set stances and postures that are typical in various martial art styles, but to combine the best parts of several into a single martial art style that removes the rigidity of set stances and postures for each individual action.

 

Doing away with the parts that hinder efficiency of motion, and thereby energy, to maximise output of physical power allowing for more damage dealt, and doing it faster than your opponent can because you're performing less complicated actions.

 

You do not learn Niman, Soresu, Shien, Ataru etc and then blend them into a new style

 

Given that Niman combines elements from forms 1-5 (without 2 though), it would be counter productive to combine it with other styles it already borrows from to create a new style.

That's the very reason I'd consider it a "gateway" to the other styles it's comprised of. The choice of a "Jack of all trades" technique that is typically the most practical, with the option of further exploring it's "component parts".

[Ghisallo]

You're misunderstanding his intent.

When he says "be water", he means to move with fluidity, for each action to flow into the next one seamlessly.

The "lack of style" is a case of not using set stances and postures that are typical in various martial art styles, but to combine the best parts of several into a single martial art style that removes the rigidity of set stances and postures for each individual action.

 

Doing away with the parts that hinder efficiency of motion, and thereby energy, to maximise output of physical power allowing for more damage dealt, and doing it faster than your opponent can because you're performing less complicated actions.

 

I think maybe you misunderstand my point. I think Jeet Kune Do is actually a good style to use in order to explain the difference. There are two branches... JKD and JKD Concepts. JKD, as taught by Ted Wong, is basically a style... It teaches the fighting in the same way the founders of this style were taught by Bruce Lee. It is also HEAVILY influenced by the first martial art Bruce Lee invented... Jun Fan Gung Fu. Of the 4 founders only 2 were ever authorized to teach by Lee and those 2 were only authorized to teach JFGF... but they slapped the name JKD on it. Basically the talk the philosophy but have actually created as static a style as any other out there. To these people to be what they call "original JKD" it actually HAD to come from Bruce Lee directly.

 

Daniel Inosanto, the only person personally authorized by Bruce Lee to teach Jeet Kune Do, created JKD Concepts. This is not a codified style or art...it is constantly morphing and changing. Not based on a central dogma btw but actually in the hands of the individual practitioner. The idea here is that Jeet Kune Do was never meant to be a static style which the other JKD is. The point is to simply use JKD as a lense of sorts so that the practioner is constantly evolving the art to their personal strengths and weakness taking maneuvers from wherever they can find them.

 

It is the later form to which I refer to. You don't learn JKD then Karate, then Aikido then go back to the JKD guy to put them together... You get a basic framework of as a foundation (if you have no prior martial arts experience) and then the instructor, acting as much as a guide as teacher advises and helps you incorporate the moves from other forms into yours as they suit you physically, mentally and in terms of any specific "needs" you may have. This art is described by a simple diagram...learning to flow into, or away from, long range (kicks), middle distance (punches) and close quarters (grappling). Everything else is a very personal experience in the long run. This to me is very Jedi.

 

What we have in the Canon rather are "purists" like Dooku who actually sneered at people who did not specialize, those master multiple static forms and then put them together. Either way the Order, not necessarily the individual, has VII static forms which are held to with a dogma of sorts.

 

If the forms only existed as say, source information for the practitioner, I would be okay with that but the fact the order seems to embrace a rather rigid concept. They accept Consulars studying just Niman, or Dooku, a former Battlemaster (thus meaning head Light Saber instructor) would sneer at people who do not focus upon and master a single art, even before he went dark. It seems odd for this rigidity to exist inside the Jedi when their concept of the force and how one continues to grow in mastery of it seems quite different.

Edited April 4, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Fyurii]

What we have in the Canon rather are "purists" like Dooku who actually sneered at people who did not specialize, those master multiple static forms and then put them together. Either way the Order, not necessarily the individual, has VII static forms which are held to with a dogma of sorts.

 

A "dogma" that like the Order itself has changed over the course of many thousands of years, only when it needs to.

Given that Form V (Shien) was created initially to address the weaknesses of Form III, with the later Djem So variant being focused more toward single combat, it shows that the Order is more than capable of growing and adapting when it needs to.

 

If the forms only existed as say, source information for the practitioner, I would be okay with that but the fact the order seems to embrace a rather rigid concept. They accept Consulars studying just Niman, or Dooku, a former Battlemaster (thus meaning head Light Saber instructor) would sneer at people who do not focus upon and master a single art, even before he went dark. It seems odd for this rigidity to exist inside the Jedi when their concept of the force and how one continues to grow in mastery of it seems quite different.

 

Except the Order doesn't embrace rigid adherence to a single style.

With the exception of Form VII during the timeframe of the prequels, all members of the Jedi Order that wish to be practitioners of multiple styles can do so.

Adhering to a single lightsaber form is also a choice they're allowed to make for themselves. Obi-Wan Kenobi was a practitioner of Ataru like his Master, Qui-Gon Jinn. After Qui-Gon's defeat against Darth Maul, Obi-Wan chose to study and later mastered Soresu, which became one of the more prevalent styles used by Jedi during the Clone Wars.

 

To reiterate, the Jedi Order does not enforce adherence to a single style, individual Jedi are free to study multiple styles and personalise their own offensive and defensive techniques from the styles they have studied and/or mastered.

Edited April 4, 2015 by Fyurii

[Ghisallo]

Just going to comment on your last bit...

 

Does it make one cotton pickin' bit of sense for an order that is about one thing to say "okay guys... we are going to create a system that is the antithesis of our core philosophy?" No it makes no sense. If the order was going to have any system it would be like JKD Concepts they would NOT say let's come up with 7 dogmatic forms and allow people to pick and chose. The later is a completely illogical evolution.

 

The light saber forms were written by people that actually have no clue about martial arts and they used every bad myth out there to write what they did and even after that insider episode those that picked up the torch and ran with it couldn't maintain anything resembling consistency.

 

So we get a mess. And yeah, I know one of the guys who wrote that episode was a fencer....that is not a martial art. What got me interested in martial arts in the first place was my highschool having a fencing team (I did foil and saber but was better at saber). That is a sport, not a martial art.

Edited April 4, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Fyurii]

Just going to comment on your last bit...

 

Does it make one cotton pickin' bit of sense for an order that is about one thing to say "okay guys... we are going to create a system that is the antithesis of our core philosophy?" No it makes no sense. If the order was going to have any system it would be like JKD Concepts they would NOT say let's come up with 7 dogmatic forms and allow people to pick and chose. The later is a completely illogical evolution.

 

Given that you started this thread with the intention of drawing parallels of why you think the Jedi Order's seven forms of Lightsaber combat (a fictional series of melee combat styles that were made to look cool on screen) are bad when compared to Bruce Lee's creation, no matter how many times you are told that it is not a rule or policy that Jedi should adhere strictly to the tenets and practices of the style they are taught at the cost of learning others by individual choice, you consistently fall back to the apparent mind set of "The Jedi are wrong, Bruce Lee is right", despite the fact that Lee did what the Jedi do, if they so choose to. To learn other styles and use the parts that work well for them in practice.

 

If anything, the learning of lightsaber styles is possibly the single most flexible aspect of a Jedi's life, since it's left to them to decide if they want to specialise in one, or attempt to master and incorporate multiple.

[Ghisallo]

Thank you for twisting what I said into a mockery of what I said.

 

What I said was that the Jedi philosophy of the study of the force is mirrored by Lee's view of the martial arts to give it a rl analogue. Thats it...I am NOT saying Lee is right Jedi are wrong by any means.

 

So if the "Jedi way" (for lack of a better term) mirrors the idea of "the style of no style" then it is illogical that they would suddenly have 7 rigid and dogmatic styles of light saber combat and invite people to focus on such rigid structures. A great many Jedi use lightsaber combat as their primary means of expressing the force (actually until the RPG came out and then the Video games ALL Jedi did, heck even in the movies the light saber is central to the Jedi ethos...its only elsewhere that it is not) so it is illogical.

 

If your philosophy is to recognize that you are one with everything, that

You must feel the Force around you; here, between you, me, the tree, the rock, everywhere, yes.

to simply flow, to not have passion but rather serenity, to not know chaos but harmony, you do not invite static concepts, passion or chaos, which is precisely what dogmatic styles create. The very act of voicing your rationale, "well you don't have to be dogmatic" implicitly says that you CAN be dogmatic, it invites all of these things and thus appears to be the antithesis of the core Jedi Philosophy.

[Beniboybling]

No I did read it...sorry if I wasn't clear but the Canon says elsewhere that Niman was basically the Light Saber adoption of Jar'Kai, a dual bladed HARD to learn/master form.

 

My issue is as always with the inconsistencies. You have statements of here saying it is the "diplomats" forms... statements over there which have it born of an aggressive DW form...and we even see this aggressive DW nature in practice with Exar Kun...who most people, if not everyone, acknowledges as a Niman practitioner. Then we also have its more aggressive and intense function shown with the Exile if you roll Sentinel.

 

So which is it? If the origin story was logic, descriptions and example in practice etc were consistent I would be sitting in my corner. However they are not consistent and this is my issue.

Yeah not from source I've seen.

 

Exar Kun deliberately eschewed the norm by abandoning moderation and basically made an entirely new form, which in many ways resembles Juyo. Again forms are flexible and can be used as tools to many different ends.

 

Niman is also considered a good platform for mastering multiple forms, and implementing multiple forms into your style, and if enough effort is put in one could feasibly use it to become an effective master of all seven styles.

 

So which is it? Its what you want it to be. But it functions as a moderate style.

[Beniboybling]

Jedi are not dogmatic? News to me.

 

Anyway, in order to have no style one must have styles in the first place, so there are inevitably going to exist some kind of codified set of moves, styles, practices, patterns etc. even if it is a basic framework like strong, fast, medium.

 

However Forms I - VII is in the end for the audience much more interesting that the inevitably vague description of lightsaber combat, moves and maneuvers that we would get if the framework were much more basic and flexible.

 

The audience needs rigid definition that they can easily perceive and connect with.

 

But again the Jedi have never shied away from dogmatism, their is plenty of rigidity within the Jedi Order, because what they are practicing is very dangerous and powerful, and they seek to control and reign that power in.

 

Not that the forms are that rigid, very few Jedi favour specialization in just one form.

Edited April 5, 2015 by Beniboybling

[Spetulhu]

What I said was that the Jedi philosophy of the study of the force is mirrored by Lee's view of the martial arts to give it a rl analogue. So if the "Jedi way" (for lack of a better term) mirrors the idea of "the style of no style" then it is illogical that they would suddenly have 7 rigid and dogmatic styles of light saber combat and invite people to focus on such rigid structures.

 

But the Jedi don't study all Force techniques either, do they? Not every Force adept is able to do everything - he's either weak in some area or totally incapable of something. Training might help him better grasp some technique but he'll still prefer to use the techniques he's strong with. Not all people want to challenge themself by taking on the handicap of a style they're ill suited for. Your Bruce Lee example is a perfect example of how people think. Even those that learned directly from him failed to understand him and created yet another rigid system instead.

 

Not everyone can be Bruce Lee - if we could he wouldn't be such a unique case. I imagine the Jedi do have a few Bruce Lees but most Jedi are just people that would rather have a "safe" set of skills. Those that trained many styles will do as you did in your examples and switch between them if needed, but they're still most comfortable with the one they know best.

[Fyurii]

Thank you for twisting what I said into a mockery of what I said.

 

What I said was that the Jedi philosophy of the study of the force is mirrored by Lee's view of the martial arts to give it a rl analogue. Thats it...I am NOT saying Lee is right Jedi are wrong by any means.

 

I didn't twist anything. I simply cut to the heart of the matter, which is an unfortunate case of you not actually knowing what you're talking about, then making things worse for yourself by refusing to reexamine your position and all the relevant information that pertains to your assertions.

Specifically your repeated view that the Jedi had an inflexible and contradictory stance when it came to lightsaber combat, going as far as listing Dooku as an example of it, without doing any further investigation into your claims.

 

Not once did I write anything that was designed to debate or even counter your points about things not related to lightsaber combat, and with the exception of correcting your statement of Bioware creating Guardian and Consular Jedi classes and my personal preference of Jedi Knight 2 and Jedi Academy's 'saber styles, I have only been discussing within the context of Jedi and the seven (arguably nine) lightsaber forms.

[Ghisallo]

But the Jedi don't study all Force techniques either, do they? Not every Force adept is able to do everything - he's either weak in some area or totally incapable of something....

 

This is actually the entire point I am trying to make. Please go above to where I speak about JKD concepts irl. The entire point is that there can not, or should not be rigid dogmas there because everyone can NOT do the same things. You tailor it to your specific strengths and weaknesses. You find and compensate for those strengths and weaknesses learning from a teacher/master.

[Ghisallo]

I didn't twist anything. I simply cut to the heart of the matter, which is an unfortunate case of you not actually knowing what you're talking about, then making things worse for yourself by refusing to reexamine your position and all the relevant information that pertains to your assertions.

Specifically your repeated view that the Jedi had an inflexible and contradictory stance when it came to lightsaber combat, going as far as listing Dooku as an example of it, without doing any further investigation into your claims.

 

Not once did I write anything that was designed to debate or even counter your points about things not related to lightsaber combat, and with the exception of correcting your statement of Bioware creating Guardian and Consular Jedi classes and my personal preference of Jedi Knight 2 and Jedi Academy's 'saber styles, I have only been discussing within the context of Jedi and the seven (arguably nine) lightsaber forms.

 

Ahh so without any actual evidence that I don't know what I am talking about yopu will simply proclaim it,.

 

You tried to claim Bruce Lee's JKD philosophy contradicted me... I pointed out how it did not (via noting the JDK Concepts of the ONLY person Lee authorized to teach JKD) and you dodge it.

 

I say "okay maybe they just want to avoid RL stuff in a fictional world... so I go to SW source material so...

 

I noted quotes from statements from Yoda in the Canon and the Code itself to support my interpretation of how the Jedi see the light side of the force and how that vision is contradictory to rigid and dogmatic styles.

 

You have produced nothing to contradict this. You just say I don't know what I am talking about.

 

You ignore your own logical inconsistency in another part of your argument as well... I will paraphrase/bullet point for the sake of brevity.

 

---I note that if an order is the antithesis of a dogmatic path to enlightenment (with in the light of course) that the rigid and dogmatic lightsaber styles...which for many ARE the path to enlightenment make no sense.

--your response is to say "well no one is forced to adhere to the dogmatic styles"

--this implicitly means that an order that does not accept such a path... permits people to chose such a path.

 

I call you on this... state it makes little sense and in response I get simply "ahh well you don't know what you are talking about.

 

If you want to say that proe it. BEYOND the mere creation of the styles show me quotes about the Jedi Philosophy (there are a multitude of them) that prove me wrong. If you search my posts you will see more than once I say "Oh I did not know that" or "thanks for the info I will think about that." But simply I am right, you are wrong statements with nothing from the lore beyond somethings mere existence is NOT something one can use for critical thinking.

 

This was btw the point of my entire thread. To get people to STOP saying... well it says on on page 55 this exists" and rather ask... "does it make sense on page 55 that this exists?" Instead of doing that though people have simply said "well the good book says it so it is fact".

Edited April 7, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Ghisallo]

Yeah not from source I've seen.

 

Exar Kun deliberately eschewed the norm by abandoning moderation and basically made an entirely new form, which in many ways resembles Juyo. Again forms are flexible and can be used as tools to many different ends.

Niman is also considered a good platform for mastering multiple forms, and implementing multiple forms into your style, and if enough effort is put in one could feasibly use it to become an effective master of all seven styles.

 

So which is it? Its what you want it to be. But it functions as a moderate style.

 

How you describe things though is NOT how the EU Canon explains things and this is my issue. They describe it as "you learn style A and if you want to go beyond that you learns styles B through F and then if you are good enough you can combine various forms."

[Ghisallo]

Jedi are not dogmatic? News to me.

 

Anyway, in order to have no style one must have styles in the first place, so there are inevitably going to exist some kind of codified set of moves, styles, practices, patterns etc. even if it is a basic framework like strong, fast, medium.

 

However Forms I - VII is in the end for the audience much more interesting that the inevitably vague description of lightsaber combat, moves and maneuvers that we would get if the framework were much more basic and flexible.

 

The audience needs rigid definition that they can easily perceive and connect with.

 

But again the Jedi have never shied away from dogmatism, their is plenty of rigidity within the Jedi Order, because what they are practicing is very dangerous and powerful, and they seek to control and reign that power in.

 

Not that the forms are that rigid, very few Jedi favour specialization in just one form.

\

Okay I love this because you get to the heart of the matter. The Jedi have dogma in only one regard really... the light and the dark. Once you get away from those "issues" is where it becomes free.

 

I will use a real world analogy again... I hope it doesn't get exaggerated. Look at the Roman Catholic Church. They adhere to a single dogma in terms of the sacraments, Christ being the son of God, all that "good" stuff.... BUT youy have MULTIPLE Orders of Priests, nuns and Monk's/Brothers (basically male nuns). Each with their own purposes with in the Church and Ways of doing things that do not contradict the central dogma.

 

Here we have the Jedi, who at least in all the canon I have read have fewer rules and are more "eastern" (for lack of a better term BUT at times they seem even more dogmatic than even one of the most dogmatic religions irl.

 

This hurts both my sense of common sense and logic.

[tunewalker]

Not sure about being a "more free" way then the nuns and the like. There are A LOT of rules they have to follow. "The Code" is talked about constantly in the prequels with all kinds of rules of things that are Forbidden, and things that are "essential" How many people you can train at a time so on and so forth. The Code itself is pretty Dogmatic to begin with.

 

And again I want to point out that I never seen the EU like that. There are people that LEAN one way or another stylistically, but that is all.

 

Anakin had clear training in Form 1, 3, 4, both versions form 5, and 6. Form 2 was largely not practiced as the number of saber duelist on Saber duelist duels were at an all time low. The sith were dead for 1,000 years. It fell out of practice because it fell out of need of being used. Form VII was restricted to being learned by people that had could have issues with Aggression, technically in his early years even Obi-wan was barred from it do to his aggression, its no wonder Skywalker didnt.

 

But when in MOST combat situations he was either dealing with blaster Opponents (1,3, 5 Shien) all being the best for those situations, Shien matching Anakin's PERSONALITY the most.

 

In blade on blade Situations 4, 5 and 6 would be his best (6 and 4 he uses when he duel wields as that largely covers all Duel Wielding training) but again do to his power in the force and shear strength he DOES fall back on 5, simply because it IS the best for the situation.

 

The Forms themselves are also I feel more "fluid" then you are giving them credit for. Or by Fluid, I should say "free" there is a centeral Idea to them and a few signature techniques that are intended to be practiced, but as far as I can tell they are mostly just a matter of "thought process" while fighting. A sword is different then hand to hand martial arts, I have never seen the Idea of Jeet Kun Do applied to weapons combat, the closest in Star Wars is Ataru actually. The idea there is everything is a weapon, hand foot, sword Force everything be fast and react to your opponent and learn to utilize everything to the best of your ability. Form V is still about turning away an opponents blade then using the momentum brought on by the redirect bring a crashing blow down on their heads... then keep it that way.

 

Its just the Forms themselves have an IDEA, but not many have that many "moves" wit them, and to top it off we have several examples of force users swapping forms for certain situations, and the "practitioners" of a style not JUST using that style, only finding that particular style fits their situations and their personalities the most.

Edited April 7, 2015 by tunewalker