Philosophical question about light saber styles...

[Ghisallo]

The resurrected thread about Shien and Djem raised this question in my head. When you think about how the Jedi speak and are portrayed it seems odd that there would be rigid styles. I think I have discovered that IRL we had a veritable Jedi on Earth and his way of describing the martial arts seems more Jedi like than what we have been given by the actual fiction... Its a little long but an interview worth the watch... It is my pleasure to introduce Master Lee.

Bruce Lee Interview Be Like Water, Be Formless!: https://youtu.be/q6OYQSSKWDI

Edited April 1, 2015 by Ghisallo

[tunewalker]

The resurrected thread about Shien and Djem raised this question in my head. When you think about how the Jedi speak and are portrayed it seems odd that there would be rigid styles. I think I have discovered that IRL we had a veritable Jedi on Earth and his way of describing the martial arts seems more Jedi like than what we have been given by the actual fiction... Its a little long but an interview worth the watch... It is my pleasure to introduce Master Lee.

Bruce Lee Interview Be Like Water, Be Formless!: https://youtu.be/q6OYQSSKWDI

 

To be truthful, I actually do NOT believe any jedi Subscribed to ONLY 1 form, while many had stylistic preferences, I do always get the sense that they COULD and WOULD change the style to fit the situations....

[MadDutchman]

I think the styles are more like disciplines, or categories/groupings of techniques. Any one practitioner will span multiple styles, however personal preference/physical stature will cause them to gravitate to a few.

 

 

As an example, I am a martial artist in RL, I am tall, lanky but exceptionally light. This naturally means any attack I perform is going to be weaker than the same attack launched by a larger, stronger individual. That being said, I am much faster, enabling me to utilize a more powerful technique in the same time span, or strike rabidly at a soft spot before an opponent can react. What I'm not inclined for is any kind of passive blocking, as I lack the weight to stop, or really even adequately redirect well aimed strikes.

 

To put this in terms of lightsaber forms, I'd be naturally inclined towards a Makashi/Ataru style, with bursts of Djem So thrown in when convenient. The idea of ONLY using precision, or agility, or power attacks is simply laughable.

Edited April 1, 2015 by MadDutchman

[Ghisallo]

Mad, I was thinking the same thing. I studied Aikido for a LONG time and still practice it and have a smattering of other forms and fighting systems (Ryu-Te, Krav Maga the other "top 2"). I do default to Aikido in stress because it is the one I am most comfortable with but this is as much a product of the fact that I do not live eat and breath the martial arts... I need a job lol. On a side note once your are comfortable enough with Aikido to be "street practical" it really is a hybrid art so while it has a name it is kinda a spiritual version of MMA. (It and Jujitsu descended from the same art form but Aikido maintained some Kenjutsu aspects and even adapted Kenjutsu strikes into unarmed strikes.)

 

The Jedi are more like Samurai, Buddhist or Taoist Monks etc....their "Job" is to master these things so being limited to one or the other seems to be over simplified at best.

Edited April 1, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Spetulhu]

Not all Jedi train for combat all their lives. There's artificers, diplomats, force adepts and what-have-you. Many will spend their time on something else than training every saber style there is. These guys will probably just pick the basic style and get their equivalent of a yellow belt, then take a weekly lesson to stay sharp. The more combat oriented knights will ofc take lessons in several styles, but they too are likely to prefer some style over the others because it fits their physique or psyche. Some styles might even be impossible to mix in a smooth fashion.

 

And ofc, depending on how rigid the training is it could also be seen as presumptuous to try mixing styles before you're a master in at least one. Teachers in martial arts often frown on the use of moves from some other art in their classes after all. That's not what they're teaching, and since you're not the teacher...

[Ghisallo]

Not all Jedi train for combat all their lives. There's artificers, diplomats, force adepts and what-have-you. Many will spend their time on something else than training every saber style there is. These guys will probably just pick the basic style and get their equivalent of a yellow belt, then take a weekly lesson to stay sharp. The more combat oriented knights will ofc take lessons in several styles, but they too are likely to prefer some style over the others because it fits their physique or psyche. Some styles might even be impossible to mix in a smooth fashion.

 

And ofc, depending on how rigid the training is it could also be seen as presumptuous to try mixing styles before you're a master in at least one. Teachers in martial arts often frown on the use of moves from some other art in their classes after all. That's not what they're teaching, and since you're not the teacher...

 

See this is where the lore contradicts itself. The history of this game and its predecessors talk about the force study and diplomat but when you look at a lot of the rest of the lore they do study the saber all their lives. Again a failure of a, for lack of a better term, a western mind set, but really imo it falls under the old canon rule of something created for a game mechanic.

 

The light saber through much of the lore is INTEGRAL to the study of the Force...the two are not separate. The practice of the Light Saber is, in essence, a focus because before you can master the force that surrounds you you first must master yourself. Such mastery never ends, it is a never ending study because as we change, even subtly, you must continually master yourself. The force is mastered along side with the saber. Instead of picturing the Jedi Knight of this game picture the Monk doing Tai Chi or another internal style of martial arts.

 

To use RL there are external martial arts and internal martial arts. An example of internal martial arts is, as I noted, Tai Chi. Yeah you see old people moving in slow motion in a park BUT in the hands of a master it is a devastatingly effective combat art. Hell my first Sensi in Aikido was a Japanese born traditionalist. I spent almost as much time meditating as I did on the form...more if he felt, based on your performance (or lack there of) that you were not sufficiently exercising "no mind". Here is a Tai Chi example...

 

I get that for game purposes you could not have a Sage blasting away with force and then kicking but in melee with the sword this however is a game issue more than a lore issue. It was first introduced by purpose (the moderation form) in the video games and then made its way into the rest of the EU though it is often just assumed and not named...because of how the video games portrayed it. Until that point all you knew is that it existed and that those practicing it at the battle of Genosis died. Which seems all odd because at the battle of Genosis there is NO discernible difference in the actual style of the fighters between those who die and those who lived.

 

As for your idea you can't mix styles... Shenanigans...

 

While I instinctively use Aikido I have sparred going from Aikido when an opponent is on full attack, sometimes surprising them by going for a heel stomp o their instep (Krav Maga) when they think I am going to try a throw or suddenly instead of trying to do a soft block into a wrist lock/armbar (Aikido) I will instead use a hard block (essentially an attack against the attacking limb) from Ryu Te. No art is incompatible with another. You have two arms and two legs and there is no limit except the limit you create in your mind. You body doesn't suddenly have some bizzare movement limitation because you say "Karate" or whatever.

Edited April 1, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Beniboybling]

The light saber through much of the lore is INTEGRAL to the study of the Force...the two are not separate. The practice of the Light Saber is, in essence, a focus because before you can master the force that surrounds you you first must master yourself. Such mastery never ends, it is a never ending study because as we change, even subtly, you must continually master yourself. The force is mastered along side with the saber. Instead of picturing the Jedi Knight of this game picture the Monk doing Tai Chi or another internal style of martial arts.

Really? I'm not sure that was ever really made a concept...

 

Sure you need to master the Force to master a lightsaber, but the other way around? I don't know.

I get that for game purposes you could not have a Sage blasting away with force and then kicking but in melee with the sword this however is a game issue more than a lore issue. It was first introduced by purpose (the moderation form) in the video games and then made its way into the rest of the EU though it is often just assumed and not named...because of how the video games portrayed it.

Pretty sure all the lightsaber forms, including Niman, where introduced by Star Wars Insider i.e. Fightsaber.

To put this in terms of lightsaber forms, I'd be naturally inclined towards a Makashi/Ataru style, with bursts of Djem So thrown in when convenient. The idea of ONLY using precision, or agility, or power attacks is simply laughable.

There exist those lightsaber duelists who focus only on one form e.g. Dooku uses only Makashi.

 

However it mixes a lot of things, its just lacking in power.

 

In fact I don't think any of the styles can be defined solely in terms of one physical attribute, they draw many just in different ways and with different ratios. To claim any one style is devoid of any one attribute seems unlikely to me.

Edited April 1, 2015 by Beniboybling

[Alexeikruchev]

To be truthful, I actually do NOT believe any jedi Subscribed to ONLY 1 form, while many had stylistic preferences, I do always get the sense that they COULD and WOULD change the style to fit the situations....

 

Certainly: Every Jedi in the Old Jedi Order knew Shi Cho before anything else- it was their learners form. The Niman Discipline, later developed and based around Shi Cho, plus some improvements, actually was much more variety filled, so, Niman Itself constitutes changing the style to fit the situation. Jedi Masters, however, often specialized highly, and even hyper-specialized, to the exclusion of other techniques. While the O.P. is correct that philosophically, Jedi should not be given to hyper-specialization (that kind of extremism is in contrast to the dominant Nimanian school of thought which was foremost in Jedi theology), clearly, many Masters did not shy away from doing so. Kit Fisto specialized highly in Shi Cho- taking the basic form to new heights, Windu took Juyo so far as to create a sub-form of it, Vapaad. To develop a form further, one must specialize very much in it.

 

I personally have a hypothesis about the Old Jedi Order at the time of the Clone Wars, the months leading up to The Knightfall Tragedy, that it had become heavily philosophically and theologically corrupted. While I hate to point the finger at Yoda, who many revere as being the quintessential Jedi Grandmaster, I personally find myself to be increasingly critical of him, and the broader Order. We have canonical proof that Yoda, In spite of purported mastery of all 7 classical Lightsaber forms, in combat only chose to rely on one or two of them- Ataru, Ataru, Ataru, followed by , against a few droid battalions, a little Soresu/Shien for redirecting blaster volleys at them in TCW. In the movies, we see him fight in two major confrontations, and one minor: We have Yoda Versus Dooku, Yoda Versus Sidious, and Yoda Versus Two Poor Clone Bastards. (Bastards is technically correct, because all clone troopers are, by default, fatherless, and this is not, in fact, being used as a profanity). In all three cases, we see him go about his fights in identical fashion: he launches an immediate, unrestrained, ballistic-missile offense against his opponent in a puerile Ataru style. Flying, flipping, somersaulting, slashing, hacking, and tornado-of-death-ing against his foes. Against Dooku, this works fine, forcing a retreat, and after a limited attempt at Force based combat, Dooku disengages. Yoda wins a tactical victory, but chose to selfishly put the needs of two of his favorite pupils, Anakin and Obi Wan, over the good of the galaxy by stopping Dooku's escape. A blunder which, in hindsight, cost the galaxy at least a decade of war, millions if not billions of lives, and led to the downfall of the Jedi Order- at the hands of Sidious and Anakin Skywalker. Whom, if Yoda had not been philosophically corrupt, and had allowed the Jedi to sacrifice themselves for the Greater Good of the Republic, would never been able to betray the Order. Funny how that happens?

On to Sidious: Yoda, in spite of his age and power and experience, chooses to engage a Dark Lord of the Sith, whom he has -NO IDEA THE SKILL LEVEL OF-, arrogantly and aggressively launches an attack against on his own, instead of taking Obi Wan with him as support, OR going with Obi Wan to handle the fallen Anakin- which in either case would likely have led to a very different outcome, given Obi Wan would not have been killed so easily. He does so, unforgivably, by predictably mimicking his exact attack pattern from his duel with Dooku- and fails miserably to pierce the Sith Lord's defenses effectively. All Yoda manages to do is wear himself out, allow the Sith Lord to take the literal high ground, and then beats a hasty retreat. His hyper-specialization in Ataru, the most aggressive of all Jedi lightsaber forms, failed him, failed the Order, and failed the Galaxy. Not once, but twice.

 

Fortunately, his hyper-specialization did bring about one positive outcome: Yoda was able to decapitate, smoothly, two clone troopers who were triple his height on the Wookiee Homeworld. So, there's that. (So Impressive, Am I Right or Am I Right?!). Never mind this made no significant difference in the course of events, aside from Yoda being around to fail miserably shortly thereafter against Sidious.

 

Props for Yoda for being around to train Luke decades later, and props to him for surviving Sidious- given how poorly Yoda fought against him, it's a true testament to his ability that he even survived. Or maybe Sidious just knew he didn't need to finish off Yoda, since Yoda was going to do... exactly what Sidious needed him to do after his disgraceful defeat. Flee into exile and abandon the hundreds of surviving Jedi to their scattered, confused, leaderless, existence and doing nothing to save the Order that was in his charge from it's fate... instead, choosing to hide out and gamble everything on one of two newborn babies.

 

Against an Empire, and two Sith Lords that single handedly annihilated the Old Order.

 

What is my point? The Jedi Grandmaster of the Old order was a hyper-specialized duelist, who, when it counted, was not confident in his varied skill set, and rather relied only on one. We see this over and over with the Old Jedi Order: Windu only relied on Vapaad against Sidious- and it failed to deliver a victory, only a stalemate. Fisto relied on Shi Cho, and it got him killed. The great Jedi killer, Vader, knew more than just Djem So. He used Shien, Shi Cho, Ataru, Soresu, Jar'kai, and Makashi at different points, and had a custom, hybridized style. Obi Wan used Soresu to a fault at times, but he also frequently switched to Ataru and Shi Cho/ Djem So at times. I would also argue Shien, to an extent, as well. My point being the best used more than one, or hybridized, but the Order itself was rampant with two problems: Hyper specialization, or in the case of the broader Order- under specialization, due to the failings of Niman evidence by the massive Jedi losses at 1st Geonosis, and throughout the war. We often have Jedi falling victim to blaster fire in TCW, even Masters, and it goes to show they didn't spend enough time on blast deflection, as many of these shots came from the front from opponents they were physically aware of. - Which could be that Niman didn't spend as much time on the technique as, say, Soresu, Shien, or even Shi Cho's advanced disciplines.

 

In conclusion:

The ideological corruption of many Jedi, even the masters, lead to an Order which was fractured and to a large extent bloated and complacent. The very ideals of the Jedi Order were compromised clearly in not just the actions of the Jedi's leadership, but also their individual fighting styles. The end result was a crushing Sith victory, a high water mark the Sith had never before reached, save perhaps in the time of KOTOR II, and then, for far shorter a season.

[Ghisallo]

Sure you need to master the Force to master a lightsaber, but the other way around? I don't know.

 

When I wake up (getting ready for bed, I worked all night, I'll dig for the references but basically the idea originally was kinda the old school Wudang (fictional most commonly known from Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon), Shaolin/Bushido (real) idea that the art, in this case the light saber was NOT the end... it was the means to the end.

 

Basically through mastery of the light saber one mastered oneself...in mastering one's self one mastered the force... and it works the other way simultaneously...as you increase in the mastery of the force, you increase in the mastery of oneself.

 

Now yes the forms started coming out in dribs and drabs via the insider (62 to be exact)...but really it was the games, at least with Niman to be specific, that filled in the details. Other than that when you see things people say "oh you saw Niman here..." Because the person was more identified as a Sorcerer (say Exar Kun because it is noted in numerous stories as being used at the trial of Ulic Qel Droma) BUT it is NEVER mentioned specifically beyond a brief blurb in the Insider... then the video game choses to flesh it out... BUT the video game is fleshing it out because, as an example...when first fleshed out as "the moderating form" only an Exile as a Jedi Sentinel could learn it. Which seems odd if Niman is the "consular's art" as the Sentinel was supposed to be the middle road between the consular and the guardian.

 

It's one of those annoying greyish areas where it is vague as all junk BUT then the group mind carries forward, not actual details from the Canon.

Edited April 1, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Beniboybling]

Actually I'd say Fightsaber pretty comprehensively established the Jedi lightsaber forms, marks of contact, their relationship to the saga and other aspects. I found the passage on Niman:

In the time of Palpatine's Chancellorship, Form VI is the current standard in Jedi lightsaber training. This Form balances the emphases of other forms with overall moderation, in keeping with the Jedi quest to achieve true harmony and justice without resorting to the rule of power. It is considered a "diplomat's Form" because it is less intensive in its demands than other disciplines, allowing Jedi to spend more time developing their skills in perception, political strategy, and negotiation, in practice, Form VI is a combination of Forms I, III, IV, and V. Young Jedi spend their first few years studying Form I and then a year or two with each additional Form before completing their training. By comparison, a Form VI master will spend at least ten years studying only that form after completing the basic Form I training. Form VI well suits the modern Jedi's role in the galaxy, in which a Knight overly trained in martial combat might be at loss to resolve a complex political conflict between star systems. However, full masters of other Forms sometimes consider Form VI to be insufficiently demanding.

 

--Taken from Star Wars Insider 62: Fightsaber - you can find the full article here.

The other entries are just as comprehensive, and future EU material has merely built on or simply regurgitated it, lightsaber forms among other things have remained pretty static in all respects from the get go.

 

The videogames don't in any way alter this, they're using a preexisting principle has a handy game mechanic.

 

However I think its a lot of the time assumed that Niman is just a lazy/weak style, its not really, its a fully fledged form in its own right but possesses a different set of principles that are not so strongly geared towards aggression.

 

Logically speaking I'd say your point about lightsaber forms makes sense, however I'd also argue that the Force, which in the end transcends physical objects like lightsabers (as Kreia would no doubt tell you) can be just as competently mastered in other ways, ways less dependent on the lightsaber that the Jedi Order would not discourage.

 

That said there is obviously a close relationship between the lightsaber and the Force, and every Jedi wields one.

Edited April 1, 2015 by Beniboybling

[Beniboybling]

While the O.P. is correct that philosophically, Jedi should not be given to hyper-specialization (that kind of extremism is in contrast to the dominant Nimanian school of thought which was foremost in Jedi theology), clearly, many Masters did not shy away from doing so.

 

...

 

Windu took Juyo so far as to create a sub-form of it, Vapaad.

I would just point out that Juyo is very much like Niman in the respect that it combines all seven forms of lightsaber combat, as does Vaapad, so Windu is very much a jack of all trades in that respect.

We have canonical proof that Yoda, In spite of purported mastery of all 7 classical Lightsaber forms, in combat only chose to rely on one or two of them- Ataru, Ataru, Ataru, followed by , against a few droid battalions, a little Soresu/Shien for redirecting blaster volleys at them in TCW.

I agree on this point, Yoda really shows a lack of versatility when it comes to lightsaber combat, he also never seems to incorporate Ataru and Soresu into a fluid form, he just seems to switch from one to another.

 

I also believe Yoda was stronger than Sidious by ROTS, so if he had dueled smart he could have won.

Yoda wins a tactical victory, but chose to selfishly put the needs of two of his favorite pupils, Anakin and Obi Wan, over the good of the galaxy by stopping Dooku's escape. A blunder which, in hindsight, cost the galaxy at least a decade of war, millions if not billions of lives, and led to the downfall of the Jedi Order- at the hands of Sidious and Anakin Skywalker. Whom, if Yoda had not been philosophically corrupt, and had allowed the Jedi to sacrifice themselves for the Greater Good of the Republic, would never been able to betray the Order.

I think this is quite unfair however, if Yoda had let Anakin and Kenobi die to catch Dooku do you think that would have made him look like the good guy? Can you imagine any Jedi from any period taking that course of action?

 

It would be perceived, and rightly so, as a betrayal of principles. The Jedi Order doesn't take the utilitarian approach that the means justify the ends, greatest good for the greatest number etc., they take the you might say Christian approach that all life is sacred, not to be discarded for a perceived "greater good", Jedi show compassion in all things.

 

Making that sacrifice would have made Yoda's victory a hollow one, because he would have sacrificed who he is to achieve results, if the entire Jedi Order followed that doctrine, they would cease to be recognizable, and instead become a callous, unfeeling organisation that does anything it takes to maintain order and maintain a greater good.

 

Sound familiar? Yeah, not too far from the principles of Darth Vader and the Imperial doctrine in general.

 

Heck let me hit you up with a quote from the man himself, Luke Skywalker:

 

There are times when the end justifies the means. But when you build an argument based on a whole series of such times, you may find that you've constructed an entire philosophy of evil.

 

Quintessential Jedi Grandmaster right there, heed his words.

Or maybe Sidious just knew he didn't need to finish off Yoda, since Yoda was going to do... exactly what Sidious needed him to do after his disgraceful defeat. Flee into exile and abandon the hundreds of surviving Jedi to their scattered, confused, leaderless, existence and doing nothing to save the Order that was in his charge from it's fate... instead, choosing to hide out and gamble everything on one of two newborn babies.

This isn't exactly true, Yoda and Kenobi went to the Jedi Temple to instruct all the Jedi to go into hiding, but admittedly yes he did little to protect and/or organise them after that occurred, and just waited for the Skywalkers.

 

Whom he almost refused to train... lawls. Yoda was old and I think he had lost hope after being beaten.

The ideological corruption of many Jedi, even the masters, lead to an Order which was fractured and to a large extent bloated and complacent. The very ideals of the Jedi Order were compromised clearly in not just the actions of the Jedi's leadership, but also their individual fighting styles. The end result was a crushing Sith victory, a high water mark the Sith had never before reached, save perhaps in the time of KOTOR II, and then, for far shorter a season.

Overall a correct assessment really, and I think Yoda's single-minded approach to combat definitely reflects on his philosophical shortcomings and overall shortcomings of the Order.

 

They were inflexible, self assured and yes definitely complacent.

[cs_zoltan]

and every Jedi wields one.

 

Lies

[Beniboybling]

Lies

Details, details.

[Spetulhu]

As for your idea you can't mix styles... Shenanigans... You body doesn't suddenly have some bizzare movement limitation because you say "Karate" or whatever.

 

Ofc not, but if you haven't actually trained anything but karate you're going to have to make do with it.

 

Even if you do have several styles in the baggage you don't get to train them together whenever you want. You might want to see about some Ataru moves in the Shii-Cho class but the teacher can't let you do that against students who don't know that style yet. And later when traveling with your master he's who you're most often training with. If he doesn't see the merits in some style you're not training it until you can decide those things yourself. Once you can then go ahead, but many Jedi have long since decided that the style(s) they know is more than enough for now.

 

You think of the Jedi as idealized Samurai, masters of all combat arts and philosophy and so on. I see them more as the actual Samurai under the Tokugawa shogunate, bureaucrats who may or may not be any good for real fights. They've laid down the bow, spear and armor to walk around with the sword they were previously ashamed to brag about, and the sword schools all claim to be the best. They often have to take a second job just to make ends meet since samurai pay is codified in law with no provisions for inflation or other problems.

[Ghisallo]

Ofc not, but if you haven't actually trained anything but karate you're going to have to make do with it.

 

Even if you do have several styles in the baggage you don't get to train them together whenever you want. You might want to see about some Ataru moves in the Shii-Cho class but the teacher can't let you do that against students who don't know that style yet. And later when traveling with your master he's who you're most often training with. If he doesn't see the merits in some style you're not training it until you can decide those things yourself. Once you can then go ahead, but many Jedi have long since decided that the style(s) they know is more than enough for now.

 

You think of the Jedi as idealized Samurai, masters of all combat arts and philosophy and so on. I see them more as the actual Samurai under the Tokugawa shogunate, bureaucrats who may or may not be any good for real fights. They've laid down the bow, spear and armor to walk around with the sword they were previously ashamed to brag about, and the sword schools all claim to be the best. They often have to take a second job just to make ends meet since samurai pay is codified in law with no provisions for inflation or other problems.

 

I underlined the important bit. You are proving my point... watch the video I linked earlier. It is the person, the mind and yes sometimes the master that places limits on what you can ad can not do... it is not your body.

 

My point is to say that the overall Jedi philosophy seems to be counter to this rigidity...beyond the idea that the "light side is the right side." Beyond that the idea is that one is supposed to simply find oneness, to flow... in essence the underlying philosophy is what Bruce Lee expresses in the video...

 

PS I completely get the "master being annoyed bit". I studied Aikido for quite sometime and am actually going back to formal training in the hopes I can advance further. To broaden my skill set I started taking Ryu Te (I even had the honor of watching the founder of the form, Seiyu Oyata, trounce a fellow student). I annoyed my sensi to no end one day. I was frustrated that my sparring partner was stronger than I was and the level of sparring we were at was highly strength related. After a series of defeats I defaulted to Aikido and started trouncing my opponent. My Sensi stopped the match... turned what I did into a teaching tool and then privately ripped me a new one lol.

[Ghisallo]

Actually I'd say Fightsaber pretty comprehensively established the Jedi lightsaber forms, marks of contact, their relationship to the saga and other aspects. I found the passage on Niman:

In the time of Palpatine's Chancellorship, Form VI is the current standard in Jedi lightsaber training. This Form balances the emphases of other forms with overall moderation, in keeping with the Jedi quest to achieve true harmony and justice without resorting to the rule of power. It is considered a "diplomat's Form" because it is less intensive in its demands than other disciplines, allowing Jedi to spend more time developing their skills in perception, political strategy, and negotiation, in practice, Form VI is a combination of Forms I, III, IV, and V. Young Jedi spend their first few years studying Form I and then a year or two with each additional Form before completing their training. By comparison, a Form VI master will spend at least ten years studying only that form after completing the basic Form I training. Form VI well suits the modern Jedi's role in the galaxy, in which a Knight overly trained in martial combat might be at loss to resolve a complex political conflict between star systems. However, full masters of other Forms sometimes consider Form VI to be insufficiently demanding.

 

--Taken from Star Wars Insider 62: Fightsaber - you can find the full article here.

The other entries are just as comprehensive, and future EU material has merely built on or simply regurgitated it, lightsaber forms among other things have remained pretty static in all respects from the get go.

 

The videogames don't in any way alter this, they're using a preexisting principle has a handy game mechanic.

 

However I think its a lot of the time assumed that Niman is just a lazy/weak style, its not really, its a fully fledged form in its own right but possesses a different set of principles that are not so strongly geared towards aggression.

 

Logically speaking I'd say your point about lightsaber forms makes sense, however I'd also argue that the Force, which in the end transcends physical objects like lightsabers (as Kreia would no doubt tell you) can be just as competently mastered in other ways, ways less dependent on the lightsaber that the Jedi Order would not discourage.

 

That said there is obviously a close relationship between the lightsaber and the Force, and every Jedi wields one.

 

Oh I don't deny the forms were established there... it was the detailed nature that was lacking and the devil is in those details sometimes.

 

I am also not saying that absolutely positively you can not master the force without the Light Saber, there are other paths obviously because in the EU there are multiple force traditions. It's just until that issue of the Insider and until the video games expanded upon that issue. Now admittedly I am talking as someone who has been watching and reading this stuff since Episode IV was first in the theaters... so until 2002 this is what was the rule...

 

This is the weapon of a Jedi Knight. Not as clumsy or random as a blaster; an elegant weapon for a more civilized age.

 

It was not until the video games that the idea of the 'Jedi Consular' even existed and even then it was for game mechanics purposes. Until then Jedi aspired to be Jedi Knights. AFTER the games people started saying "oh that is a Jedi Consular and this is a Jedi Consular" BUT you never see the concept specifically stated until the video games because the concept didn't exist. Then you have the contradiction that admittedly kills my anal retentiveness. When we first see Niman in the games it is only the Sentinel that can use it. The sentinel is neither the Warrior nor the Consular but somewhere in between... YET Niman evolves... somehow into the consular's art?

 

Basically the details of the form... this one does this specifically...that one that... seems to be a product of group think rather than actual Canon. The fact that people then attribute Niman to a style that does not dual wield when DW is actually a core of the original Niman and the Jar'Kai that spawned it makes my head hurt. What is even more crazy bearing is that Jar'Kai actually requires MORE martial skill yet somehow Niman that is allegedly born of it only 300 years later (SWTOR era, is suddenly the consular's art that does not require as much focus and training). So while I acknowledge the forms exist...the details behind them do annoy.

 

Maybe I should not look at the totality of the history and ask "htf did it become this?!?!?! it makes NO logical sense whatsoever" but that would be contrary to my nature .

Edited April 2, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Fyurii]

It was not until the video games that the idea of the 'Jedi Consular' even existed and even then it was for game mechanics purposes.

 

Half right.

It was the Star Wars Pen & Paper RPG series that introduced Guardian and Consular classes of Jedi, since the whole thing was basically D&D wrapped in a Star Wars ribbon.

 

Sentinel was what Bioware created for KoTOR, to be the "middle of the road" option between the two already existing classes.

Since KoTOR used modified D&D 3.5 (iirc) rules, it was something they were familiar enough with from previous RPG games they'd done, especially with Neverwinter Nights (Odyssey engine was an updated version of Aurora for NWN), which played very similarly (albeit KoTOR being much more streamlined by comparison to NWN in game mechanics).

[MadDutchman]

I underlined the important bit. You are proving my point... watch the video I linked earlier. It is the person, the mind and yes sometimes the master that places limits on what you can ad can not do... it is not your body.

 

My point is to say that the overall Jedi philosophy seems to be counter to this rigidity...beyond the idea that the "light side is the right side." Beyond that the idea is that one is supposed to simply find oneness, to flow... in essence the underlying philosophy is what Bruce Lee expresses in the video...

 

PS I completely get the "master being annoyed bit". I studied Aikido for quite sometime and am actually going back to formal training in the hopes I can advance further. To broaden my skill set I started taking Ryu Te (I even had the honor of watching the founder of the form, Seiyu Oyata, trounce a fellow student). I annoyed my sensi to no end one day. I was frustrated that my sparring partner was stronger than I was and the level of sparring we were at was highly strength related. After a series of defeats I defaulted to Aikido and started trouncing my opponent. My Sensi stopped the match... turned what I did into a teaching tool and then privately ripped me a new one lol.

 

It was the same way for me in Taekwondo, I regularly resorted to what the instructor called "dirty tactics" due to Taekwondo's excessive dependence on kicks over other forms. Didn't make me very popular, but then, after I've dropped my bony elbow into their painfully predictable roundhouse kicks, they're the ones that look dumb, not me.

 

I think this is one of the problems faced by the Jedi, they had their concept of what was "proper" after so many years, and it really limited them. You get some Jedi like Anakin who had skill in multiple forms (III, IV and V if memory serves), but others who practically ignored others, like Kanan (favoured III to "ridiculous degree" though to be fair to him he was a padawan at the time of order 66)

[tunewalker]

And the interesting thing about that is we ALSO know that VII was rarely taught to as was II as it fell out of favor due to its specilization against Saber duelists, and the rarity of those opponents. VI was the standard of Saber combat, and I was just the basics to begin with, so we can actually surmise that Technically Anakin likely used I, III, IV, V and VI, it IS directly stated that he used VI against Dooku in Episode II when he went to duel wielding against him. So basically he DID adapt and use every form, its just with his strength, speed and abilities III, IV and V were the most oppropriate and effective forms for him in a vast majority of situations. They fit his physical and mental state the most often.

 

That's why they are refered to as "practitioners" rather then "specialists" I just find it is the forms their mental state and physical capabilities lean them towards the most often.

[Ghisallo]

Half right.

It was the Star Wars Pen & Paper RPG series that introduced Guardian and Consular classes of Jedi, since the whole thing was basically D&D wrapped in a Star Wars ribbon.

 

Sentinel was what Bioware created for KoTOR, to be the "middle of the road" option between the two already existing classes.

Since KoTOR used modified D&D 3.5 (iirc) rules, it was something they were familiar enough with from previous RPG games they'd done, especially with Neverwinter Nights (Odyssey engine was an updated version of Aurora for NWN), which played very similarly (albeit KoTOR being much more streamlined by comparison to NWN in game mechanics).

 

Yeah but my issues are, according to the Canon rules on the now defunct holonet, things for game mechanics are just for the game.

 

The light saber forms were basically just named in an issue of the insider...then the games decided to define them. The definitions are also at times contradictory like Niman which, when introduced, was a rather intensive form of sword play but is now the easy one.

[Ghisallo]

It was the same way for me in Taekwondo, I regularly resorted to what the instructor called "dirty tactics" due to Taekwondo's excessive dependence on kicks over other forms. Didn't make me very popular, but then, after I've dropped my bony elbow into their painfully predictable roundhouse kicks, they're the ones that look dumb, not me.

 

I think this is one of the problems faced by the Jedi, they had their concept of what was "proper" after so many years, and it really limited them. You get some Jedi like Anakin who had skill in multiple forms (III, IV and V if memory serves), but others who practically ignored others, like Kanan (favoured III to "ridiculous degree" though to be fair to him he was a padawan at the time of order 66)

 

Lol... my brother in law takes TKD... made his black belt a couple months ago. he wanted to spar... I promised to NOT use Aikido. he thought I would use Ryu-Te but tbh I never got any good at it. My Sensi learned the from from it's creator and is "authorized" to teach it so he teaches it in a VERY rigid way. I liked the Aikido katas because they flowed but the Ryu-Te katas felt like I was in "stop motion."

 

So instead I used Krav Maga and boy was he annoyed. He would go to make a kick and I would kick him in the shin...a TKD move incorporated in but he didn't expect it. Then he would punch and I would do a Wing Chun move imported into KM... a block that is essentially a strike to the "offending arm" and almost simultaneously launching a strike with the other hand since they are now "open"... instead of the neck/throat shot as trained I was polite enough to catch him in the solar plexus. Luckily we get along REALLY well lol

 

back on point

 

I just think the entire idea of the forms overall is "un-Jedi". I noted Obi-Wan's quote. We get the different "classes" of Jedi for video game purposes and such things aren't supposed to be Canon. I can totally get that a jedi may chose to focus on the "art" over the "martial" when it comes to light saber practice and so would be less skilled than another Jedi but the idea of distinctly different forms seems to against the way the Jedi see the Universe and the Force. It's supposed to be about unity of thought and action, being in harmony with the Universe. It is supposed to be flowing, and not forcing things with ones passions. Such "rigidity" in structure seems counter to the ethos somehow.

Edited April 3, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Fyurii]

Yeah but my issues are, according to the Canon rules on the now defunct holonet, things for game mechanics are just for the game.

 

IIRC, it did mostly remain that way until the KoTOR comics had Consulars and Seers as actual divisions/sections of the Jedi Order.

 

The light saber forms were basically just named in an issue of the insider...then the games decided to define them. The definitions are also at times contradictory like Niman which, when introduced, was a rather intensive form of sword play but is now the easy one.

 

That kind of thing goes beyond just the Jedi "classes" and the changes over time to the lightsaber forms.

Jar'Kai (dual wielding) was first mentioned in the game X-Wing: Alliance, where one of the trophies you got for accomplishing a bonus objective was a pair of Jar'Kai dueling sabers. They were a pair of typical real world sabers with serrated blades.

There was some confusion over the dueling sabers that already existed, and the use of Jar'Kai as a lightsaber form, which was softly retconned by Wizards of The Coast in a supplement for the P&P game which basically said that the dual wield combat style, and the sabers of the trophy, originate with the Yovshin Swordsmen of Atrisia.

This issue I liked the resolution to, because it showed the logical in-universe adoption of non-lightsaber combat styles for lightsaber wielders.

 

Another change was with the Echani. The first time I ever saw the word in Star Wars media, was the first of the Crimson Empire series.

Echani was then just a martial art, but one of the single deadliest which at that time was only seen used by (because that's what they were trained in) the Emperor's Imperial Guard.

With their grueling training (already being the best-of-the-best from the Stormtrooper Corps) in combination with Echani, they were able to operate almost on par with Jedi when it came to combat, lacking only the Force*.

Of course, that also changed with KoTOR and was further explored by Obsidian in KoTOR 2.

 

In a vague reference to the necro'd Shien/Djem So thread, the lightsaber forms themselves underwent retcons too.

Form V Djem So was originally a much later addition in chronology to Shien, but then Djem So was changed to appear further back in the timeline so that Jedi such as Ulic Qel Droma could be made practitioners of it.

 

I've got to admit though, as a game mechanic when it comes to lightsaber styles I still vastly prefer Jedi Knight 2 & Jedi Academy's Fast/Medium/Strong style. Especially since until Episodes 2 & 3, they were the only time that there was effort put into making visually distinct fighting styles that had appeared after Luke vs Vader on Bespin.

In comparison to the later list of seven forms, it still came across as a streamlined and more effective method for lightsaber combat over what was brought out by SW Insider.

 

 

*Just for some interesting information!

Originally Crimson Empire was going to show the Imperial Guard as being all clones from a single template (not Fett, Crimson Empire started in '97, before Episode 1 in '99), which was first "hinted at" with all those whose faces were shown to be close to identical with the only differences coming from age, hairstyle and Kanos' scar from Vader's lightsaber cutting his face in a demonstration during training on Yinchor. This was effectively dropped and never picked up again.

Given that the main antagonist of the first series, Carnor Jax a traitor Guardsman, was Force Sensitive and practicing using the Force in the post-RoTJ era, it would also have hinted that the Prime Template came from at least a Jedi from before the rise of the Empire.

[Ghisallo]

Agree on the Fast/Medium/Strong style thing. In essence you would have the same basic frame work, the differences would instead rather be personally tailored (with the assistance of a master instructor) to the particular strength and weaknesses of the Jedi themselves.

[Beniboybling]

Ghisallo despite me posting the entry on Niman for you, I'm not convinced you read it. You keep claiming that the games defined Niman, that the games made it the moderation form, that the games made it less intensive.

 

But like, none of this is true! Let me make it a little more clear by highlighting key parts of the Insider for you:

This Form balances the emphases of other forms with overall moderation...

 

...

 

...It is considered a "diplomat's Form" because it is less intensive in its demands than other disciplines...

 

...

 

However, full masters of other Forms sometimes consider Form VI to be insufficiently demanding.

So given that (I suggest you read the entire entry for all the details) we can answer the following:

 

 

1. Did the games establish Niman as the moderation form? No.
    
    
   
2. Did the games establish Niman as the diplomats form? No.
    
    
   
3. Did the games establish Niman as a less intensive form? No.
   

 

The devil is indeed in the details, but you seem to be ignoring them. So what did the games establish? Not much really. The only really addition apparent to me is that Niman also became the Consular's form. That it became a style favored not only by those who wished to focus on the study of politics and negotiation, but the Force as well.

 

I don't really find that problematic however, Niman is a form that allows you to concentrate on non-martial skills, this doesn't necessarily need to be politics, there is no reason why it could not be the Force, or history, or something else.

 

Finally a lightsaber form has many different aspects, I don't see why one aspect couldn't be extrapolated into a new and different form. Or have an originally dual wielding form reconstructing as suitable for single blade combat.

 

P.S. The game mechanics in KOTOR are just that, game mechanics, I wouldn't pay them much attention.

[tunewalker]

Honestly from what I read there is 2 forms of Niman, the single blade variant and the Duel Blade Variant

 

"Jar'Kai was originally a style of swordplay that utilized dual blades, developed by the Yovshin Swordsmen. A similar dual-blade technique referred to as Niman was developed by the Royale Macheteros of the Kashi Mer monarchy.[2] Niman was adopted by the darksider group known as the Legions of Lettow during the First Great Schism, as well as the Jedi Order itself.[2] Niman was developed into the sixth form of Lightsaber combat, retaining its name,[2] while Jar'Kai became something of a blanket term for dual-blade combat."

 

So basically when you are saying "Jar'kai" now adays its not so much a "style" as it is 2 handed fighting, styles that are highly compatible and teach "Jar'kai" have been noted to be of course Niman, Ataru, Makashi (do to its 1 handed grip preference) and Juyo (Do to its aggressive stacato preferences). Most who are using "Jar'kai" are using Niman as its kind of the base form of "Jar'kai".