Kaggath Battlegrounds Final: Republic Resistance vs Imperial Droid Division

[Beniboybling]

While I do believe by armament alone the ISD is notably more powerful, Selenial's interpretation of the Tarkin Doctrine is correct, size and physical intimidation were significant factors, factors the Venator in comparison did not possess.

 

The Venator-class may I add, that had been dubbed the "Jedi Cruiser", it is a symbol of the Old Republic and the Jedi Order, not a symbol that the Empire would be interested in associating itself with, its decommissioning was inevitable.

 

So I certainly don't believe it is definitive proof of the Victory-class over the Venator. Which in terms of firepower has been compared to that of a Dreadnaught, nor did the Victor Initiative Project appear to be much of a success.

[Beniboybling]

Now where are you getting a Lucehulk's shieldings are 10x stronger than an ISD?

According to the Wookiee its peak shields are between 1.08 × 10/25 and 4.32 x 10/25 whereas the Imperial-I is 7,73 × 10/24. I don't do math, but I'm pretty sure the Lucrehulk is better...

 

However I'm not sure where the Wookiee is getting these estimations from.

 

However I don't think it proves much of anything, I think its obvious that a flotilla of Venators would scrap a single ISD in short order, but that certainly doesn't make 1 Venator equal to an ISD, which has over twice its power output.

[Selenial]

According to the Wookiee its peak shields are between 1.08 × 10/25 and 4.32 x 10/25 whereas the Imperial-I is 7,73 × 10/24. I don't do math, but I'm pretty sure the Lucrehulk is better...

 

However I'm not sure where the Wookiee is getting these estimations from.

 

However I don't think it proves much of anything, I think its obvious that a flotilla of Venators would scrap a single ISD in short order, but that certainly doesn't make 1 Venator equal to an ISD, which has over twice its power output.

 

Will have to sourcebook dive, it's just something I'd noticed and written down for the last Kaggath series. Either way, while yes a Flotilla could take one down, it specifically says punch through shields. A flotilla is a small fleet, so 3 ships at max since that's a standard fleet size for the Republic.

 

But a Venator is specifically able to divert all of it's power to it's weapons systems if wanted. Packing a punch into a lower amount of weapons has always been better at overwhelming shields, at least that's what I'd always worked on. Not saying a Venator would beat an Imp-1, but people need to stop acting like they aren't rivals. Due to the Imp's weakness to fighters, a fully comp'd Venator would run one into the ground...

[Beniboybling]

Well I think this energy would be best directed at the battle at hand.

 

*points to the viewport*

[Wolfninjajedi]

According to the Wookiee its peak shields are between 1.08 × 10/25 and 4.32 x 10/25 whereas the Imperial-I is 7,73 × 10/24. I don't do math, but I'm pretty sure the Lucrehulk is better...

 

However I'm not sure where the Wookiee is getting these estimations from.

 

However I don't think it proves much of anything, I think its obvious that a flotilla of Venators would scrap a single ISD in short order, but that certainly doesn't make 1 Venator equal to an ISD, which has over twice its power output.

 

Yeah the estimation is just a bunch of BS and is retarded. The estimation comes from how many Venators are in a fotilla and can calculating from...something, I don't know what. But the math involved is just stupid.

 

Also if you wanna go by that, the ISD has a far greater power output anyway.

 

So bringing up a flotilla being able to destroy a Lucrehulk cruiser is moot, because an even lesser number of ISDs could do the same. Their power output is that of a star, which can power all systems and STILL leave a generous amount leftover, so an ISD could very well do the same as a Venator and push all power to its guns, not that it needs to because it's power output outdoes the Venator anyway if were going by some math calculations.

Edited April 27, 2015 by Wolfninjajedi

[ShadowMudkip]

Is there info on the rate of fire for a SPHA-T?

[Beniboybling]

Yeah the estimation is just a bunch of BS and is retarded. The estimation comes from how many Venators are in a fotilla and can calculating from...something, I don't know what. But the math involved is just stupid.

[tunewalker]

Lol someone's getting angry. It's actually supported by a lot, namely Tarkin himself...."Rule through the fear of force rather than through force itself." why use the ships that have liberated a galaxy from the Seperatist cause when you're trying to instill fear in systems?

 

More proof?

"New Order needs one undeniable and overwhelming symbol to impress and, yes, frighten the masses. The average citizen has no grasp of numbers nor a head for calculation"

"When citizens look at a Star Destroyer and then compare it to the craft which might be mustered to attack it, they have a tendency to dismiss such a notion as suicidal rather than approach the problem tactically."

"the average citizen deals in symbols, not rational analysis."

"then that weapon shall become the symbol of the Empire"

"Sweep away the last remnants of the Old Republic and let fear keep the local systems in line—fear of our ultimate weapon."

 

Jesus did you even read it before replying?

 

I Am SERISOULY wondering if you read what you just posted...., in addition to its listing of "Massive Firepower" as why the star destroyer is effective. Further, FEAR of Force still REQUIRES overwhelming Force. The Tarkin Doctrine is 100% about bringing the MOST FIREPOWER available to sway the masses NOT to attack through fear of being ran over. They have no "Mind for calculations" which is why they needed something MASSIVE and POWERFUL rather then something just "Large" and can field a lot of fighters, the Citizen's have no mind for calculating IE they have no Mind For Calculating just how much fighters change whats going on. But they understand, that thing is big and has more firepower in it then anything we have ever heard of.

 

Seriously read Star Wars Galactic Civil war Stuff, come back to me when your done and give me an actual LOGICAL Argument as to why the Venators werent used, when Military Doctrine (which by the way ask any one from the Military they will tell you that's basically like "orders of the highest regard") favors Overwhelming firepower over anything else.

 

The Victory did what it was supposed to Replaced the Venator, and then it got replace by the Imp, when they needed more ships following their Doctrine of "massive firepower prefered over all else" they didnt go for the Venator they went with the Victory.

Edited April 27, 2015 by tunewalker

[tunewalker]

Well I think this energy would be best directed at the battle at hand.

 

*points to the viewport*

 

Venator's are in the battle at hand, thus bringing them down to their ACTUAL Canon Level, rather then the Bull **** Fan level is directing energy at the battle at hand.

[Selenial]

I Am SERISOULY wondering if you read what you just posted...., in addition to its listing of "Massive Firepower" as why the star destroyer is effective. Further, FEAR of Force still REQUIRES overwhelming Force. The Tarkin Doctrine is 100% about bringing the MOST FIREPOWER available to sway the masses NOT to attack through fear of being ran over. They have no "Mind for calculations" which is why they needed something MASSIVE and POWERFUL rather then something just "Large" and can field a lot of fighters, the Citizen's have no mind for calculating IE they have no Mind For Calculating just how much fighters change whats going on. But they understand, that thing is big and has more firepower in it then anything we have ever heard of.

 

Seriously read Star Wars Galactic Civil war Stuff, come back to me when your done and give me an actual LOGICAL Argument as to why the Venators werent used, when Military Doctrine (which by the way ask any one from the Military they will tell you that's basically like "orders of the highest regard") favors Overwhelming firepower over anything else.

 

The Victory did what it was supposed to Replaced the Venator, and then it got replace by the Imp, when they needed more ships following their Doctrine of "massive firepower prefered over all else" they didnt go for the Venator they went with the Victory.

 

You're getting on a mighty high horse here, Mr "Saba Sebatyne and Corran Horn could each beat Vitiate". Yah, I'm the one with an Era bias here

 

You seriously need a better argument than "Read civil war stuff because you're wrong" when you've yet to refute a single of the lines of the Tarkin Doctrine. Squads of Rebellion fighters could take on an Imperial-1 by flying low, since their turbolasers could not go beyond a 90 degree angle. If it was a venator however, the fighters would be slaughtered in droves and the Empire would have won the war. Instead, Tarkin, the guy who refused to leave the Death Star as a precaution felt that the Imperials kept the systems in line with large scary ships.

 

Again, please refute a single one of those Doctrine quotes and I'll get back to you.

[Selenial]

Also tune, you do realise that quote is literally him saying that Star Destroyers might not be as tactically sound, but people will be too scared to do diddly squat, right?

[Beniboybling]

Venator's are in the battle at hand, thus bringing them down to their ACTUAL Canon Level, rather then the Bull **** Fan level is directing energy at the battle at hand.

Well this is my stance.

 

 

1. The notion that the Venator-class is inferior to a Victory-class is ambiguous and unlikely.
    
    
   
2. The Venator in regards to firepower is obviously inferior to the IMP-I, but makes up for it with fighters.
    
    
   
3. 2 Vindicator-classes vs 1 Venator-class is for the most part an equal match.
   

 

If you'd like to continue this discussion in light of that, fine, but personally it appears purposeless, and I do indeed believe energy would be best spent focusing on how the Venator would fare against the fleets at hand.

 

I would start with the following:

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=8159919&postcount=197

 

And I would be interested to hear your thoughts.

Edited April 27, 2015 by Beniboybling

[ShadowMudkip]

If the RR's fighters can occupy/disable/cripple/ or even destroy enemy ships, then it would free up the capital ships needed to take on the Praetor.

 

One thing I want to bring up is, though jedi pilots wont be effective in the fight as a whole, they could be very effective if focused on one objective, namely guarding the Imperious from enemy fighters. If the all the Jedi pilots present were playing guard duty, then it would greatly increase the starfighter defenses needed by the Imperious due to its lack of Point defense guns.

[Silenceo]

Personally, I want to see the breakdown of where those fighters are coming from. Every time I search, the Acclamator- I does not have any fighters listed, as it is a transport for the most part. The Venators, while awesome at carrying fighters, still do not hit anywhere near the 4.5k or so figure. I just feel as if I am missing something...

 

(It is also good to note that the X-83 is merely the X-wing of the Legacy period, which should say hi to the universal tech rule, unless it was used in the time of Luke Skywalker? Which, btw, still a bit unsure how they are being accessed given the RR leadership, but not going into that seeing how that is not a worth-while discussion.)

 

Though, if you are referring to the 80 gunships that the Acclamator - I can carry, I have to question that being used to augment the forces considering that was meant specifically for ground support vehicles...

[Wolfninjajedi]

Personally, I want to see the breakdown of where those fighters are coming from. Every time I search, the Acclamator- I does not have any fighters listed, as it is a transport for the most part. The Venators, while awesome at carrying fighters, still do not hit anywhere near the 4.5k or so figure. I just feel as if I am missing something...

 

(It is also good to note that the X-83 is merely the X-wing of the Legacy period, which should say hi to the universal tech rule, unless it was used in the time of Luke Skywalker? Which, btw, still a bit unsure how they are being accessed given the RR leadership, but not going into that seeing how that is not a worth-while discussion.)

 

Though, if you are referring to the 80 gunships that the Acclamator - I can carry, I have to question that being used to augment the forces considering that was meant specifically for ground support vehicles...

 

The Acclamator is a planetary assault ship, meaning it only lands planet bound forces. So right, the Acclamator doesn't carry any Starfighters, just ground forces.

 

As for the Venator, it carries 192 V-wings or V-19s, 192 Etas and 36 ARC-170 fighters. This just fighters, now there's 6 Venators here so.. total would be..

 

2, 520 fighters across all 6 of them.

Edited April 27, 2015 by Wolfninjajedi

[ShadowMudkip]

Personally, I want to see the breakdown of where those fighters are coming from. Every time I search, the Acclamator- I does not have any fighters listed, as it is a transport for the most part. The Venators, while awesome at carrying fighters, still do not hit anywhere near the 4.5k or so figure. I just feel as if I am missing something...

 

(It is also good to note that the X-83 is merely the X-wing of the Legacy period, which should say hi to the universal tech rule, unless it was used in the time of Luke Skywalker? Which, btw, still a bit unsure how they are being accessed given the RR leadership, but not going into that seeing how that is not a worth-while discussion.)

 

Though, if you are referring to the 80 gunships that the Acclamator - I can carry, I have to question that being used to augment the forces considering that was meant specifically for ground support vehicles...

 

I just went through the whole thread and didn't find a reference to 4500 fighters. Idk I might have missed something but Beni will have to clarify.

 

EDIT: I found a post by Beni on page 3 that said the RR had 3300 fighters but not anything else.

Edited April 27, 2015 by ShadowMudkip

[Silenceo]

That is a mere 6% of the 4,600 fighters the Resistance has at its disposal. I am confident they can fulfill this quota and more. So I think that should definitely be taken into account when discussion Tartans vs RR fighters.

 

It has been brought up multiple times, but the most I have calculated given that the Acclamators NEVER carry star fighters...

 

Venator: 420 x 6 = 2520

Imperious: 60

 

Total: 2,580

 

Quite a bit short of that 4,600 or so number...

 

Side Note: If the Acclamators do give 80 per, even then that would only be 3,620. I am sure you can see where my confusion as to the numbers sprouts from...

Edited April 27, 2015 by Silenceo

[Wolfninjajedi]

It has been brought up multiple times, but the most I have calculated given that the Acclamators NEVER carry star fighters...

 

Venator: 420 x 6 = 2520

Imperious: 60

 

Total: 2,580

 

Quite a bit short of that 4,600 or so number...

 

See my post above, the Acclamator wasn't for ship to ship combat, it was strict a planetary invasion ship.

[Beniboybling]

If the RR's fighters can occupy/disable/cripple/ or even destroy enemy ships, then it would free up the capital ships needed to take on the Praetor.

 

One thing I want to bring up is, though jedi pilots wont be effective in the fight as a whole, they could be very effective if focused on one objective, namely guarding the Imperious from enemy fighters. If the all the Jedi pilots present were playing guard duty, then it would greatly increase the starfighter defenses needed by the Imperious due to its lack of Point defense guns.

For the Tartans they would certainly prove a threat, however the Vindicator-class is much better protected with 65 light turbolaser cannons - which would be mildly effective against fighters - and 20 point defense laser cannons, which could be potentially devastating. Combine that with its own fighter compliments, and I find it unlikely they'd be that effective.

 

That said, the bridge is exposed, though not quite as big and as vulnerable a target as that of the ISD. And they could at the very least prove effective in hit and run maneuvers (Twin Tails) soaking up the damage, with the goal to temporary disable shields and weapons with the ion cannons and disruptor torpedoes, leaving them vulnerable.

Personally, I want to see the breakdown of where those fighters are coming from. Every time I search, the Acclamator- I does not have any fighters listed, as it is a transport for the most part. The Venators, while awesome at carrying fighters, still do not hit anywhere near the 4.5k or so figure. I just feel as if I am missing something...

 

(It is also good to note that the X-83 is merely the X-wing of the Legacy period, which should say hi to the universal tech rule, unless it was used in the time of Luke Skywalker? Which, btw, still a bit unsure how they are being accessed given the RR leadership, but not going into that seeing how that is not a worth-while discussion.)

 

Though, if you are referring to the 80 gunships that the Acclamator - I can carry, I have to question that being used to augment the forces considering that was meant specifically for ground support vehicles...

Its carrying capacity has been estimated at 156 fighters, whats 13 squadrons of 12 fighters, based on one person counting them in OCW. If was on the page proper but has since been removed, but its the best we've got.

 

The universal tech rule doesn't not scale technology down, only upwards. At this point I don't feel an analog is particularly necessary, but I'm not familiar with how large the jump in technology is in the Legacy era.

[Beniboybling]

I just went through the whole thread and didn't find a reference to 4500 fighters. Idk I might have missed something but Beni will have to clarify.

 

EDIT: I found a post by Beni on page 3 that said the RR had 3300 fighters but not anything else.

Yeah that was changed due to an error on my part.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=8115460&postcount=66

 

4,600 is the original figure that was used in the past Kaggath.

[Silenceo]

For the Tartans they would certainly prove a threat, however the Vindicator-class is much better protected with 65 light turbolaser cannons - which would be mildly effective against fighters - and 20 point defense laser cannons, which could be potentially devastating. Combine that with its own fighter compliments, and I find it unlikely they'd be that effective.

 

That said, the bridge is exposed, though not quite as big and as vulnerable a target as that of the ISD. And they could at the very least prove effective in hit and run maneuvers (Twin Tails) soaking up the damage, with the goal to temporary disable shields and weapons with the ion cannons and disruptor torpedoes, leaving them vulnerable.

 

I REALLY feel as if you are severely underestimating Tartans. If it was that simple, a squad of X-wings would of laughed at the Tartans. Yet Tartans decimate X-wings when they face off... Minus of course, Rogue Squadron...

 

Its carrying capacity has been estimated at 156 fighters, whats 13 squadrons of 12 fighters, based on one person counting them in OCW. If was on the page proper but has since been removed, but its the best we've got.

 

The universal tech rule doesn't not scale technology down, only upwards. At this point I don't feel an analog is particularly necessary, but I'm not familiar with how large the jump in technology is in the Legacy era.

 

As for this, I have to call this out. That would count as modifying a vessel, since it is not stated to be such nor is that listed as a variant in the wiki... I know you don't trust it at times, but it is listed to have 0 star fighter capability. As for the spread of the other fighters, I kinda wonder about the distrubtion between the types. I mean, the Galactic Empire has an easily followed doctrine for such numbers but I do not recall the Republic having such other than their standard carried, which are not really explained.

 

For example:

 

Galactic Empire Star Fighter Doctrine

 

Divided into 6 pieces:

 

4 Fighter

1 Bomber

1 Elite/Interceptor

 

Which translates into:

 

4 TIE D per

1 Skipray

1 Shadow Droid

 

1/6 of the IDD are confirmed Imperial Aces. That along should heftily swing the fighter combat.

 

Side Note: As for not scaling down with the rule, that is quite abusable... That reminds me of the situation of Trench vs Vong. Simply because the Vong came in a later date, they would of had an advantage had Trench not been given the utmost basics about the Vong. Here, the X-83 is out of time. Similar logic would apply if a Imp-II showed up in a fight against the Old Republic. If tech is not scaled, the Imp-II solo's, hence the entire reason for that rule. Here, it is a star fighter, but the advance of tech, which is supposed to be equalized, is essentially boosting instead, despite there being a direct comparison with the earlier X-wing models between it. Anyways, not a hill I am willing to die on, just think it is odd and exploitable if planned for. Really we should see if we can find how well the Predator's do against the Twin-tails or something else from the Legacy era to provide a proper and equal level comparison. Nor am I saying Twintail 100% = standard X-wing. No, despite this even if down-scaled it would still be quite lethal, more so than the standard X-wing.

Edited April 27, 2015 by Silenceo

[Wolfninjajedi]

Also dunno where the Vindicator are getting their armament numbers, because the sources that it points to Starships of the Galaxy, the Vindicator isn't even on the sourcebook. Edited April 27, 2015 by Wolfninjajedi

[Beniboybling]

I REALLY feel as if you are severely underestimating Tartans. If it was that simple, a squad of X-wings would of laughed at the Tartans. Yet Tartans decimate X-wings when they face off... Minus of course, Rogue Squadron...

I'm not talking about X-Wings, I'm talking about TwinTails. I summarised that argument here:

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=8159919&postcount=197

As for this, I have to call this out. That would count as modifying a vessel, since it is not stated to be such nor is that listed as a variant in the wiki... I know you don't trust it at times, but it is listed to have 0 star fighter capability. As for the spread of the other fighters, I kinda wonder about the distrubtion between the types. I mean, the Galactic Empire has an easily followed doctrine for such numbers but I do not recall the Republic having such other than their standard carried, which are not really explained.

 

For example:

 

Galactic Empire Star Fighter Doctrine

 

Divided into 6 pieces:

 

4 Fighter

1 Bomber

1 Elite/Interceptor

 

Which translates into:

 

4 TIE D per

1 Skipray

1 Shadow Droid

 

1/6 of the IDD are confirmed Imperial Aces. That along should heftily swing the fighter combat.

Again it is seen fielding fighters in OCW, which means such a variant exists, and that is variant Lady has chosen.

 

Bearing in mind it was listed as carrying said number of fighters when that choice is made. I have faith in the Wookiee, but its statistics are not law, something that has been demonstrated a number of times in this tournament.

 

And have you got a source for that (including the Imperial Aces part), because that would be useful info.

Edited April 27, 2015 by Beniboybling

[tunewalker]

Well this is my stance.

 

 

1. The notion that the Venator-class is inferior to a Victory-class is ambiguous and unlikely.
    
    
   
2. The Venator in regards to firepower is obviously inferior to the IMP-I, but makes up for it with fighters.
    
    
   
3. 2 Vindicator-classes vs 1 Venator-class is for the most part an equal match.
   

 

If you'd like to continue this discussion in light of that, fine, but personally it appears purposeless, and I do indeed believe energy would be best spent focusing on how the Venator would fare against the fleets at hand.

 

I would start with the following:

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=8159919&postcount=197

 

And I would be interested to hear your thoughts.

 

1. The Ship was set to replace it and the only reason it DIDNT was the Imperial. Further I want every one to really look over the Tarkin Doctrine one more time, when he starts refering to an "Ultimate weapon" that would prove to cause opponents to be so fearful as to quell rebellion upon sight and you would only need 1 of.... its the Death Star, are any of us really going to sit here and say that IT didnt have insane firepower..... Of course the hell not. If by the Tarkin Doctrine the Victory Replaced the Venator then it could have ONLY been because of firepower considering that is EXACTLY what its designed to do, I dont know why any one should be surprised by that, Similar Size, but the Victory gives up Hangar space for a Larger Reactor and more powerful Guns... Am I going to say the Venator's guns werent more accurate? no I dont feel right saying that. Am I going to say the Venator didnt have better Armor, no the Tarkin Doctrine didnt emphasis TO heavily on Armor it emphasised Firepower....

 

2. yes but we werent talking about fighters in this case we were talking about Cap Ship vs Cap Ship fire power, IE fighters would be factored in seperately.

 

3. I agree, and that's my point, honestly looking at the fact that we agree here its likely the Victory that is underestimated, but as the Victory is not IN this battle it doesnt matter.

 

 

The rest I will get to in a moment.

[Wolfninjajedi]

I'm not talking about X-Wings, I'm talking about TwinTails. I summarised that argument here:

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=8159919&postcount=197

Again it is seen fielding fighters in OCW, which means such a variant exists, and that is variant Lady has chosen.

 

Bearing in mind it was listed as carrying said number of fighters when that choice is made. I have faith in the Wookiee, but its statistics are not law, something that has been demonstrated a number of times in this tournament.

 

And have you got a source for that (including the Imperial Aces part), because that would be useful info.

 

There are no Acclamator variants that are for Starfighters, the only other variant is the Mark 2 which is designed around Orbital bombardment.

 

The showing in OCW is inconsistent with the rest of the lore.

 

As for the Imperial Ace thing for Shadow Droids.

 

To do this he removed the still-living gray matter from grievously wounded or incapacitated TIE fighter aces.

 

- Taken from Essential guide to Droids

Edited April 27, 2015 by Wolfninjajedi