Kaggath Battlegrounds Final: Republic Resistance vs Imperial Droid Division

[Beniboybling]

Well I suppose the question remains as to whether they can break through the Resistance's fighter screens. On one hand as Mudkip has pointed out, the Resistance has a bunch of exceptional fighters in vast quantities, several piloted by Jedi. On the other hand the IDD has a comparatively smaller force of inferior fighters, but they do have the advantage of Shadow Droid coordination (though they remain outnumbered) and heavy point defense support.

 

However it could be argued that while the Resistance may not have enough advantages to seize fighter superiority, at the very least they can sufficiently play defensive, capitalizing on Venator support to deal with the Tartans. So really if the IDD are going to cripple the Resistance's capital ships, they need an effective way of punching a hole.

I dont think that the ray shields are able to stop him from sending signals.

I think he would have to interface with a terminal in order to hack into the on board systems. Edited April 20, 2015 by Beniboybling

[raandomname]

I think he would have to interface with a terminal in order to hack into the on board systems.

He hacked an entire planet without setting foot on it, so I highly doubt that.

[Beniboybling]

He hacked an entire planet without setting foot on it, so I highly doubt that.

Well in order to hack into the Executor, he had to use a computer terminal:

In an unoccupied corridor of the vast Super Star Destroyer, IG-88 finally got what he wanted. He found an unused terminal and jacked into the main computer core of the Executor. Normally the Star Destroyer's programming defenses would have blocked any such intrusion, but IG-88 was faster and far superior to any sluggish starship computer.

 

--Taken from Therefore I Am: The Tale of IG-88

So I think if IG-88 were to be isolated in this manner, his abilities would be neutralised.

[raandomname]

Well in order to hack into the Executor, he had to use a computer terminal:

In an unoccupied corridor of the vast Super Star Destroyer, IG-88 finally got what he wanted. He found an unused terminal and jacked into the main computer core of the Executor. Normally the Star Destroyer's programming defenses would have blocked any such intrusion, but IG-88 was faster and far superior to any sluggish starship computer.

 

--Taken from Therefore I Am: The Tale of IG-88

So I think if IG-88 were to be isolated in this manner, his abilities would be neutralised.

Admittedly, Im not an IT expert, but my understanding is that hacking what basically is an computer, would be a lot more difficult then hacking a much simpler machine.

Besides, he hacked the console to gain some of the Empire's most secret information, turning of a ray shield emitter should in any case be much easier.

[Selenial]

IG-88 could probably hack the ship before being noticed, and transfer control of internal systems to himself, as we know can be done.

 

He'd also get amazingly in depth information on their troop formations, and probably a hell of a lot of Republic Intelligence assets. If imperial intelligence encryptions don't stop him, theirs won't either.

[Beniboybling]

IG-88 could probably hack the ship before being noticed, and transfer control of internal systems to himself, as we know can be done.

 

He'd also get amazingly in depth information on their troop formations, and probably a hell of a lot of Republic Intelligence assets. If imperial intelligence encryptions don't stop him, theirs won't either.

That's definitely a workable possibility.

 

Though I find it unlikely that information of that kind would be stored in the ship's computers.

[Aurbere]

IG-88 could probably hack the ship before being noticed, and transfer control of internal systems to himself, as we know can be done.

 

He'd also get amazingly in depth information on their troop formations, and probably a hell of a lot of Republic Intelligence assets. If imperial intelligence encryptions don't stop him, theirs won't either.

 

How, exactly, could he hack into the ship without being noticed? I'd assume if he landed he would be noticed immediately.

 

Also, I'm pretty sure that kind of data isn't kept on ships. Isn't that why losing R2 in TCW was such a big deal?

[Beniboybling]

How, exactly, could he hack into the ship without being noticed? I'd assume if he landed he would be noticed immediately.

 

Also, I'm pretty sure that kind of data isn't kept on ships. Isn't that why losing R2 in TCW was such a big deal?

Well if IDD were able to successfully deploy Dark novatroopers via drop pods, they could provide a necessary distraction, noting that Kenobi and Anakin got pretty far before they themselves were caught in a ray shield.

 

I figure IG-88 could play the R2 in that situation, however Random also makes a good point.

[Selenial]

How, exactly, could he hack into the ship without being noticed? I'd assume if he landed he would be noticed immediately.

 

Also, I'm pretty sure that kind of data isn't kept on ships. Isn't that why losing R2 in TCW was such a big deal?

Ventress.

 

That's all I should really need to say. We've seen before that a strong, devastating boarding party can completely mask the infiltration of a deadly and subtle unit, and it wouldn't take long for IG-88 to have complete control.

 

As for the R2 situation, that was different. You'd get that information on ships on a battle by battle basis, R2 had the troop movements and fleet formations used in the entire war. Information about the battle and forces would be available, certainly.

Edited April 21, 2015 by Selenial

[Beniboybling]

As for the R2 situation, that was different. You'd get that information on ships on a battle by battle basis, R2 had the troop movements and fleet formations used in the entire war. Information about the battle and forces would be available, certainly.

I don't see the logic there, troop and fleet formations don't change on a battle by battle basis, nor do Republic Intelligence assets (which really would have no reason to be on there), that is highly sensitive information.

 

The only thing that changes on such a basis is tactical plans and locations relevant to the situation, but it serves no purpose to have that information stored aboard the ships in space. It certainly wouldn't be "amazingly in-depth."

 

All that info would be stored on computers planetside.

[Beniboybling]

Something from Lady:

For said drop pods to even be plausibly employed in this battle they would need to get up close, meaning that Trench has to advanced on Nek's defensive formation. I can guarantee he will place his fleet in a position where the sun itself will make easy firing solutions mearly impossible for Trench to gain.

 

If Trench is foolish enough to advance on Bwua'tu's fleet he is going to get pounded relentlessly by heavy long range fire. Given that the fighter superiority is crucial here he is very highly likely to gun down as many Tartans as possible, once this is employed Nek would use his crossfires in a massed blitz attack on Trench's fighter force and defeat it through sheer numbers.

 

As this is happening the second fighter formation of X83s covering the Ionizers would move on the capital ships of Trench's fleet. Between a massed formation of Crossfires and the very durable Twintails then the point-defense turrets of the remaining Tartans would not be nearly enough to close the gap in fighter numbers.

 

Once the superior fighters and superior numbers all but cripple the IDD's fighter screen then the rest of the IDD fleet is left wide open to being crippled by ion weaponry and proton torpedoes.

 

At the same time Nek's fleet is at a distance in a defensive formation and between the reserve fighter squadrons and the PD cannons on the Venators the likelihood of any significant number of drop pods making it through is very low.

 

The remaining question is: would Jerec and the like risk losing so many Dark Troopers in an operation that could very well end in all of them being destroyed in the attempt to reach and board Nek's fleet? They are not easy to replace and they are already heavily out-numbered on the ground as it is.

 

 

It is here that I rest my case:

 

The Resistance has these advantages:

-A better fleet admiral

-Massive fighter superiority in both quality and quantity.

-First blood capability via massed long-range cannon fire.

-Jedi pilots.

-Daily or better fighter reinforcements.

-Familiarity with their ships.

-Jedi farsight on the battle.

 

The IDD has these advantages:

Boarding Parties.

A slight advantage in firepower due to the Praetor.

Networked fighters.

IG-88

 

The difference is that all of the first three of the IDD's advantages can and will be nullified by the many more advantages of the Resistance fleet. The IDD has one genuine chance and that chance is completely based upon absolutely everything going right for the IDD and the RR being incompetent.

I would understimate the firepower of the Praetor however, the firepower advantage it possesses is pretty considerable, and it is also difficult to take down. And in so far the Resistance lacks a viable strategy to achieve this.

 

IG-88 could also prove a major advantage as well, so the Resistance doesn't necessarily have the upper hand here. Boarding parties could also serve to increment the IDD's advantages so it will be vital to prevent them.

 

Thanks for your continued input though, its a good help in keeping the debate going.

Edited April 22, 2015 by Beniboybling

[raandomname]

Something from Lady:I would understimate the firepower of the Praetor however, the firepower advantage it possesses is pretty considerable, and it is also difficult to take down. And in so far the Resistance lacks a viable strategy to achieve this.

 

IG-88 could also prove a major advantage as well, so the Resistance doesn't necessarily have the upper hand here. Boarding parties could also serve to increment the IDD's advantages so it will be vital to prevent them.

 

Thanks for your continued input though, its a good help in keeping the debate going.

1. First of Im gonna adress again how exactly the IDD will overcome the fighter disparity:

- the Skipreys and Shadow Droids are capable of destroying 1000-1500 RR starfighters with concusion missiles alone

- the Vindicators have very strong starfighter defenses and should be able to hold of around 500 starfighters on their own

- the Tartans can easilly hold of around 500 fighters

At which point the numbers are pretty even.

2. Now I dont really know where this whole superior quality thing is coming from.

The Ionizers are in all regards completelly outclassed by the Skipreys and the Shadow Droids can easilly compete with the TwinTails.

In general the Crossfires are being way overhyped in this thread. In Legacy even when piloted by the most elite pilots of the GA Remnant, Predators are still a threat to them. While the Predator probably has superior defenses and firepower to a TIE/D, the TIE has vastly superior piloting and maneuverability and is a smaller target. All in all the TIE/D is mostly comparable to a Predator, and should thus be able to compete fairly well with the Crossfires.

Ill also point out again that the Crossfire has an atrociously uncomfortable and akward design and is piloted by men who have absolutely no experience with it.

3. The IDD's fighters also have a vast advantage due to superior coordination. Often it doesnt matter how badly you are outgunned and outnumbered, when you can mobilise your forces more effectivelly and are able to gain small scale local superiority, you will also gain large scale superiority. And with superior pilots and coordination the IDD is asured this advantage.

3. The Jedi pilots of the RR are utterly useless and unimportant in this scenario. The R has only 50 Jedi at its disposal in total and it is really unlikely that the RR will use more then one squadron of Jedi pilots in the space battle and those will have no effect in the big picture, besides being inferior to the Shadow Droid's "pilots" anyway.

[ShadowMudkip]

1. First of Im gonna adress again how exactly the IDD will overcome the fighter disparity:

- the Skipreys and Shadow Droids are capable of destroying 1000-1500 RR starfighters with concusion missiles alone

- the Vindicators have very strong starfighter defenses and should be able to hold of around 500 starfighters on their own

- the Tartans can easilly hold of around 500 fighters

At which point the numbers are pretty even.

Not to be rude, but you can't pull arbitrary numbers from nowhere to support your claims. You also can't use the armament of a ship to take out other ships from a scenario. Example, the Venators are stated as having 52 point defense guns each. The Acclamators have 24 each. Combined, this equals 612 point defense cannons on the RR side. I could make the claim that if each cannon took care of one fighter, then the IDD is down to only half its fighter strength using StarSquirrels numbers. the problem with these arguments is that they have no basis.

2. Now I dont really know where this whole superior quality thing is coming from.

The Ionizers are in all regards completelly outclassed by the Skipreys and the Shadow Droids can easilly compete with the TwinTails.

Nothing to currently say here.

In general the Crossfires are being way overhyped in this thread. In Legacy even when piloted by the most elite pilots of the GA Remnant, Predators are still a threat to them. While the Predator probably has superior defenses and firepower to a TIE/D, the TIE has vastly superior piloting and maneuverability and is a smaller target. All in all the TIE/D is mostly comparable to a Predator, and should thus be able to compete fairly well with the Crossfires.

Ill also point out again that the Crossfire has an atrociously uncomfortable and akward design and is piloted by men who have absolutely no experience with it.

I believe there was an explanation in a past round (Warren v Silencio I recall) where it was stated that for the purpose of the Kaggath, the naval forces are familiar with their ships. I also personally believe the "Shadow Meld" to be overhyped since it is simply the Shadow Droids extremely limited precognition combined with basic droid to droid interface.

3. The IDD's fighters also have a vast advantage due to superior coordination. Often it doesnt matter how badly you are outgunned and outnumbered, when you can mobilise your forces more effectivelly and are able to gain small scale local superiority, you will also gain large scale superiority. And with superior pilots and coordination the IDD is asured this advantage.

Except that the extreme numbers advantage the RR possesses does not allow for small scale superiority. Also, how are the IDD's naval forces vastly superior to that of the GAR? Mindful that the clones were built to be genetically superior to normal humans, with things like better coordination and faster reaction times.

3. The Jedi pilots of the RR are utterly useless and unimportant in this scenario. The R has only 50 Jedi at its disposal in total and it is really unlikely that the RR will use more then one squadron of Jedi pilots in the space battle and those will have no effect in the big picture, besides being inferior to the Shadow Droid's "pilots" anyway.

Its true that the RR won't put that many Jedi into space, but they won't be unimportant. Remember that Jedi have been known as great pilots, even more so the PT Jedi. In fact, the finest pilots were always Jedi or some other force user.

 

Responses above

[StarSquirrel]

Responses above

 

In response to the Jedi point

-Yeah they're useless, a squadron of Jedi in a space battle of this size against Shadow droids that match them in skill and force-enhanced piloting ability (and acknowledging that the Shadow Droids come in far greater numbers) the Jedi will have no measurable effect inside a cockpit.

 

As for the quality of fighters and quality of pilots

-I did an of this back in the early stages of this match (literally page #1)

 

For small-scale superiority, well lets look at large-scale superiority

-Tartans, with a suitable crossfire, can rip massive gaping holes in fighter formations as well as cover each other once the enemy fighters close. Assuming the enemy fighters close, the Tartans can stay in packs and sprint from one side of the battle to the other (with speed and maneuverability equal to that of some fighters) ripping through enemy lines while being at the same time, exceedingly difficult to engage adding to their survivability on top of the fact they already have corvette-sized ship's shields.

-Skiprays, with their missiles, can rip apart the enemy fighter formations. Meanwhile the IDD fighters are small, nimble, and/or stealthy as well as see the future preventing such a missile-based tactic from working on them.

-IG-88. We've discussed his ability to assassinate, but he is also capable of linking all the TIE/ds into a single hive-mind network as well giving them the ability to have a complete large-scale picture of the battle and respond to large-scale changes in the battle instantaneously, placing their tactical ability much closer to that of Nek's.

 

Suffice to say the IDD has a better combination of fighters and anti-starfighter weaponry than the RR.

 

Now for an honest opinion on fighters

-Crossfire is better than the TIE/D normally, but flown in flights coordinated by Shadow Droids the Crossfire's lack of maneuverability will be a fatal flaw especially in the tight confines of a dogfight.

-Prior to the dogfight Random made an excellent point that the missile capacity of the Skipray (as well as its insane durability and firepower) will rip massive portions of the RR fighter wings apart before the battle even begins, with the Crossfires and Ionizers being particularly vulnerable due to their poor maneuverability.

-The Shadow Droid meld isn't being overhyped though perhaps being a bit misunderstood. It really turns the TIE/ds from a mass of swarming droids into coordinated teams of droids that can act and react to the future. Aside from the Jedi, no other unit on the battlefield has anywhere close to the coordination the Shadow Droids can provide and as I've already mentioned, the Jedi are a non-issue due to their radically small numbers.

 

Oh, and lets not forget that the Shadow Droids are stealthy (combine that with their antennae and they make great scouts giving Trench more detailed info on Nek's movements) and even if targeted they have rear-facing guns on top of their already impressive armament allowing them to eliminate targets anywhere.

[tunewalker]

Want to point out a couple things that I dont think have properly been talked about (though I could be wrong about the talks)

 

1. Tartan's vunerability.

 

I believe people are making these out to be much more vulnerable then I truly believe them to be, while the Venator have good fire power, its really only their main guns, if you can stay out of range of the guns until flanking them they will basically be useless.

 

The Tartans have the speed to and maneuverability to do just this, while the Venator will STILL have some fire power in the rear it wont be enough to truly threaten the Tartans

 

2. Vindicator Maneuverability. Again as a smaller ship these things WILL (and do) move easier then the Venator's, but that is to be expected, of course the RR counters perfectly with the Acclamators here.

 

3. I have said it before, I do NOT believe Point defense guns have the range to protect other ships from fighters, even if they can protect themselves, this is a strict advantage for the IDD as it can cover its one large ship that DOESNT have fighter coverage.

 

4. Fighter SQUADS.... we need to stop looking at Individual fighters and start looking at SQUADS of fighters, individual fighters just have not shown the firepower to really have any effect on the overall battle between capital ships. They are Annoying Natts and that's about it, but a squad can deal SOME damage, but that's just it it still needs to be a SQUAD of fighters, even when fighting other fighters, you lean on your squad mates to get you through. You use your shields to soak up some damage while trying to evade as much fire as you can, and calling for back up from your mates who try to peel. 1 Fighter is ineffective, so we should stop CALCULATING them 1 fighter as a being instead talk more about the more accurate way they are going to effect the battle and that is AS A SQUAD.

 

5. I have never seen the Venator Field that many fighters at a single time, they take time to get their fighters out there, even with the Ventral doors as large as they are, to fit the fighters they cant all be lined up, nor can they all take off at the same time, there isnt enough space for it. The fighters will be done in waves, this is likely also slightly true for the other ships but it still must be taken into account, ESPECIALLY with the Tartans that need no deploying.

 

6. More People = more planning in Advanced, orders take a while to filter down, the RR has MOSTLY larger ships though the IDD still has 1 ship that's bigger then all of them with a larger crew. Ultimately I think they are about equal here, but the RR LIKELY has the slight edge with the commander.

 

7. Trench and Nek never met, I honestly do believe Nek is slightly superior, but Trench has several accolades going for him as well. Not to mention his style seems SOMEWHAT similar to Nek's with how they are both very analytical of their opponents. Nek I do believe is slightly better, but I do not think WE should pretend to know for certainty which would come out on top (this is a similar issue I have with "force user power levels" to be honest, as some how using that scale is any kind of a good indication, especially since my opinion is most masters of each era are more then capable of matching up with others... but That's me being a broken record at this point)

 

 

8. It has been mentioned that's why its being listed last here, but the IDD's Massive ship, the RR has SOME answer to it, but even then the RR commander is going to need to find a way around this things primary guns or suffer some serious pain and loss, thankfully the Commander is pretty good (Nek) and he has some maneuverable ships like the Acclamator's that might be able to pull such a trick off, not to mention 4 Venator's to this one large ship so flanking it may not be much of an issue, but which ever ship is intended as "bait" is going to be feeling it (if not dieing) in the morning.

 

 

Edit: 9. and such a focus on bringing down the Main ship could just cause the rest of the IDD fleet to tear through the RR fleet, that is the basic issue, the RR is having to deal with 1 MASSIVELY powerful ship and a GRIP TON of highly maneuverable well rounded capital ships. Dealing with the 1 Massive ship is hard enough and can be done with Maneuverability, but when your opponent is using the SAME tactic to deal with YOUR ships there is going to be an issue, Its counter your enemies maneuverable ships and get creamed by the main guns of hte Massive ship.... or Counter the massive ship and get Flanked and picked off by the smaller ones.... they have a tough job trying to do both, and its why I love the IDD fleet, I feel its BUILT like a proper "fleet" it has the 1 big flag ship, a few large back up ships, and then the small maneuverable Fighter peelers and flankers... in the Empire this was Imp Star's, Victories/ Vindicators, and then Carracks/ Tartans/ Lancers, in the Rebel Alliance this was Mon Cal's, Assault Frig/ Nebulon B's, and then CR90's.

Edited April 23, 2015 by tunewalker

[Silenceo]

Makes it hard to respond to due to being in the quotes...

 

For the Droid Meld, I fear you are not doing it quite the justice it deserves.

 

Facts:

- GE has searched for decades of ways to intertwine droid fighters with command modules and coordination between fighters never before seen.

- Human control too slow and blocky

- Droid control too predictable and exploitable

- TIE Droid was DESIGNED to link up with some sort of superior interface, with their on board computers storing tactics, maneuvers, and even past battles in order to help it adapt faster (which they have had 2 large battles)

- Shadow Droids are essentially cyborgs taken to the extreme. Speed and precision of droids, with the skill of Ace Imperial Pilots, combined with the creativity and diversity sentients bring to the table.

- Shadow Droids were no longer producible without a dark sider to create them, such as when Palpatine died.

- TIE D was unable to cope with its limitations due to lack of Imperial Funding (all time low at that time)

- TIE D was still lethal to organic pilots without any maneuvers or such programmed into them (Mon Cal and WD)

- Shadow Droids are designed to transmit their signals to a command ship and to other star fighters

- TIE D was designed to receive such

 

All of this can easily be found on the wiki, within the books, and even in the source books. Now, for the parts that are heavily implied:

 

- TIE D able to become coordinated by Shadow Droids via their signals

- Data load is divided into small squadrons for ease of use (1 Shadow droid per 5 TIE D)

- Due to Imperial Doctrine, 1/6 of my entire fighter force, are IMPERIAL ACES... Taken to an even higher level.

- IG-88 would be able to coordinate the Shadow Droids so that they can then coordinate the TIE D

- Shadow Droids being the top of the food chain of pilot skill. They quite literally could surpass the average Jedi.

- Skiprays using jamming tech would be able to make strikes that are difficult to counter

 

Imperial pilots are said to be the best in the galaxy, and even some of the Rebellions best pilots were former Imperial pilots. Imperial Ace's could easily solo an entire squadron of X-wings by themselves in standard craft... In a Shadow Droid, with the pre-cog, WITH the advanced droid reflexes.... They are quite simply beyond a standard Jedi in a star fighter. 1/6 of my force of these, are easily able to pickup the slack, not to mention the coordination the TIE D's will have to ensure the Shadow Droids can cause maximum damage. Oh, and do not forget Shadow Droids have stealth coating and are armed to the teeth, as well as pretty dang agile...

 

For this next part, while the clones were good, they were not the caliber of ship men that the Galactic Empire employed, heck, I had several quotes saying as such from the previous match and linked here early on. The clones did not receive special ranks or training for star ships, there was not much difference between them on the ground and in space apart from the equipment used. Imperial crews on the other hand are repeatedly stated to be the most well trained in the galaxy ever. My entire crew is composed of such. It is also good to keep in mind that the tartans, while likely to be targeted, will heavily push the star fighter battle in the IDD's favor. They were designed to quite literally demolish entire squadrons in seconds. Since the RR star fighters are sturdy I guess it would be a several seconds for a squadron instead... Now, I know that pure Capital ship firepower, most of mine comes from the Vengeance but statistically, I have about the same if not more capital ship grade fire power. Add into that the IDD's ability to sweep the fighter game and it is a snow ball effect. If the RR can not stop the Skiprays or even the Shadow Droids, both of which have forms of stealth or jamming, then the RR simply can not win.

 

All the IDD fighters would need is 10 seconds of a gap, and due to their insane coordination, they could easily exploit it and a Venator or two lose their bridge. They have all the means in the world to do this as well. Heck, if the RR plays defensively with its fighters, they could be targeted by the larger guns just by virtue of being near the RR capital ships. If they are not engaging, they are likely to either be out of position or to be guarding the vessels. If the latter, they could easily take a pounding from the big guns before fighter strikes or tartan strikes cause casualties.

 

Quite simply, those Jedi are very limited and at the same time vastly out classed in this fight in regards to space combat. A Jedi's main strength in a star fighter is their pre-cog and not so much their natural skill, which albeit some did possess. However, the average run of the mill Jedi was not a hot shot pilot rather than they could use pre-cog to punch way above their weight class in a star fighter. In this fight, that is turned against them. The Shadow Droids have pre-cog as well, have stealth capabilities, AND are all Ace's. Every. Single. One. Is. An. Ace. In essence the Jedi pilots would be out gunned, out classed, and out numbered. Heck, it would actually help the IDD if Jedi were killed in space.

 

A Jedi pilots greatest strength which usually was uncontested (not to mention they are used to just fighting Vultures...) is heavily contested but the contester has multiple factors going for them that the Jedi do not.

 

 

 

There, I responded to a post with a meaningful response... I guess I might get drawn in... No! Must go get Conquest back up and running! I am too busy for this Kaggath!

[Wolfninjajedi]

Sil just to note, there were Clone pilots trained for piloting starships/fighters and the like.

 

Trained on Kamino before being sent offworld to continue to train in advanced training.

 

However yes, with sources the Imperial Navy crews have more going for them at being better than Clones.

Edited April 23, 2015 by Wolfninjajedi

[Silenceo]

Sil just to note, there were Clone pilots trained for piloting starships/fighters and the like.

 

Trained on Kamino before being sent offworld to continue to train in advanced training.

 

However yes, with sources the Imperial Navy crews have more going for them at being better than Clones.

 

Ah, my bad on the Clone Pilots then. Though, I still suspect Imperial Gunners > Clone Gunners.

 

Either way, gotta get out of here before Beni gets me with a hook!

 

*Runs for the escape pods*

[Wolfninjajedi]

Ah, my bad on the Clone Pilots then. Though, I still suspect Imperial Gunners > Clone Gunners.

 

Either way, gotta get out of here before Beni gets me with a hook!

 

*Runs for the escape pods*

 

Yeah Imperial Gunners are better, but this is more due to information regarding their capabilities.

[Beniboybling]

1. Tartan's vunerability.

 

I believe people are making these out to be much more vulnerable then I truly believe them to be, while the Venator have good fire power, its really only their main guns, if you can stay out of range of the guns until flanking them they will basically be useless.

 

The Tartans have the speed to and maneuverability to do just this, while the Venator will STILL have some fire power in the rear it wont be enough to truly threaten the Tartans

Easier said that done, the Venators have batteries on both sides and the design allows these batteries to fire forward effectively, they have 360 degree swivel capabilities and have various targeting modes for differing situations.

 

I do not see the Tartans escaping them so easily.

I have never seen the Venator Field that many fighters at a single time, they take time to get their fighters out there, even with the Ventral doors as large as they are, to fit the fighters they cant all be lined up, nor can they all take off at the same time, there isnt enough space for it. The fighters will be done in waves, this is likely also slightly true for the other ships but it still must be taken into account, ESPECIALLY with the Tartans that need no deploying.

The Venator possesses a hangar bay far larger than any known cruiser, its half a kilometer along, and according to Wookieepedia this allows it to "rapidly launch hundreds of fighters", its purpose built to this effective, so its extremely unlikely it would fare worse when it comes to fielding than a normal cruiser.

 

More likely that the Venator will be able to field the most fighters at the quickest rate.

Trench and Nek never met, I honestly do believe Nek is slightly superior, but Trench has several accolades going for him as well. Not to mention his style seems SOMEWHAT similar to Nek's with how they are both very analytical of their opponents. Nek I do believe is slightly better, but I do not think WE should pretend to know for certainty which would come out on top (this is a similar issue I have with "force user power levels" to be honest, as some how using that scale is any kind of a good indication, especially since my opinion is most masters of each era are more then capable of matching up with others... but That's me being a broken record at this point)

I think slightly superior is an understatement. Trench is clearly a capable commander yes with an impressive history of victories, but his impact on the war was minimal in comparison to Grievous. Nek on the other hand as Star has explained played an instrumental if not vital part in all the conflicts he participated in and has an exceptional and in many respects unprecedented set of achievements.

 

Remember that Nek beat the Thrawn Simulator prior to commanding a single fleet engagement. Trench is realistically out of his depth, and is going to have to rely more heavily on the forces at his disposal to win.

 

Other than that, excellent points from everyone.

[tunewalker]

Easier said that done, the Venators have batteries on both sides and the design allows these batteries to fire forward effectively, they have 360 degree swivel capabilities and have various targeting modes for differing situations.

 

I do not see the Tartans escaping them so easily.The Venator possesses a hangar bay far larger than any known cruiser, its half a kilometer along, and according to Wookieepedia this allows it to "rapidly launch hundreds of fighters", its purpose built to this effective, so its extremely unlikely it would fare worse when it comes to fielding than a normal cruiser.

 

More likely that the Venator will be able to field the most fighters at the quickest rate.I think slightly superior is an understatement. Trench is clearly a capable commander yes with an impressive history of victories, but his impact on the war was minimal in comparison to Grievous. Nek on the other hand as Star has explained played an instrumental if not vital part in all the conflicts he participated in and has an exceptional and in many respects unprecedented set of achievements.

 

Remember that Nek beat the Thrawn Simulator prior to commanding a single fleet engagement. Trench is realistically out of his depth, and is going to have to rely more heavily on the forces at his disposal to win.

 

Other than that, excellent points from everyone.

 

On the "tartan" thing and the "guns swivel thing" ya let me know next time the Venator Shoots THREW itself to shoot at a target.... oh wait that would be incredibly STUPID.

 

Point is the tartans are VERY fast, and being able to turn the guns backwards does NOT equate to being able to shoot directing behind you with your full fire power. A limited amount of guns for Cap ship firing DOES equate to a limited amount of coverage of a Kilometer long ship.

 

Not to mention go ahead waste those 8 guns trying to hit a few Tartans that are using the bigger ships and any space Debris for Obstruction, moving at High speeds and are using your own BODY to make it difficult to hit them. Every shot you waste on that is not hitting the Vindicators which ARE tearing through you at that point.

[Beniboybling]

On the "tartan" thing and the "guns swivel thing" ya let me know next time the Venator Shoots THREW itself to shoot at a target.... oh wait that would be incredibly STUPID.

 

Point is the tartans are VERY fast, and being able to turn the guns backwards does NOT equate to being able to shoot directing behind you with your full fire power. A limited amount of guns for Cap ship firing DOES equate to a limited amount of coverage of a Kilometer long ship.

 

Not to mention go ahead waste those 8 guns trying to hit a few Tartans that are using the bigger ships and any space Debris for Obstruction, moving at High speeds and are using your own BODY to make it difficult to hit them. Every shot you waste on that is not hitting the Vindicators which ARE tearing through you at that point.

Considering that it has guns on both sides, I don't see how that would be an issue, they only blind spots the Venator has are the rear and the underbelly, Nek is going to make it difficult/impossible for them to approach from such angles.

[tunewalker]

Considering that it has guns on both sides, I don't see how that would be an issue, they only blind spots the Venator has are the rear and the underbelly, Nek is going to make it difficult/impossible for them to approach from such angles.

 

How.... The Tartans are massively more maneuverable then ANY other ship in his arsenal, to top it off if he spends to many ships on that GG, not enough firepower to take down the Bigger ships.

 

I have been saying the Rear the entire time... so "sides" dont matter......

 

 

Edit: I really really need to fight this "Venator Hype" train...... The Victory Class was intended to Replace them, The Victory I was a "failed" project for its speed issues and the like.... The Victory II was considered a "Success" but it would end up being Over Shadowed by the Imperial I-class. While the Venator's MAIN guns, could match the MAIN guns on the Imperial Class the Venator had 8 of them and the Imperial had 6... So its no WONDER the Venator could match its MAIN guns, that doesnt mean it can match the WHOLE ship.

 

Finally the Tarkin Doctrine refers to FIREPOWER, not just size. The opponent is meant to look at something and go .... oh goodness how are we ever going to beat THAT thing, the Advantage of the Venator is the Fighters as most arent a Pentiant for numbers and critically thinking.

 

I want people to really stop and think for a moment..... Why were Venator's phased out in Favor of Imperials AND Victory-classes, if Victories project of being a replacement wasnt a success.

 

Money isnt a reason, after all you already HAVE thousands of Venators scrapping them to build OTHER ships is a massive WASTE of money.... the Victory is SMALLER then the Venator so having the Venator phased out and the Victory NOT phased out doesnt make any sense from the "size is better then all perspective". The only true explination I can see is that the Venator DID have other weaknesses that the Victory did not, be it firepower, coverage, Ground troop maneuvering capabilities, but Ultimately the Venator was Phased out... and the Victory AND the Imperial were moved in.

Edited April 25, 2015 by tunewalker

[Beniboybling]

How.... The Tartans are massively more maneuverable then ANY other ship in his arsenal, to top it off if he spends to many ships on that GG, not enough firepower to take down the Bigger ships.

 

I have been saying the Rear the entire time... so "sides" dont matter......

Simple positioning for one, the fleet is going to be positioned facing the enemy, meaning the Tartans would have to come at them from the front, not the rear, they could theoretically attempt to circle around them, but detaching themselves from the main group would make them easy to pick off.

[tunewalker]

Simple positioning for one, the fleet is going to be positioned facing the enemy, meaning the Tartans would have to come at them from the front, not the rear, they could theoretically attempt to circle around them, but detaching themselves from the main group would make them easy to pick off.

 

Not at range, AND just a few are needed to be in the main group....

 

The Venators STILL have a max range.... and that's the meaning of Maneuverability, being able to skirt inside their own ships and then BLAZE past the Venators guns and get behind with out suffering much of a hit from the Venator as the Main guns are focused on other things and the guns designed for Point blank shooting the Tartans are still to far away from, by the time the guns start focusing on the Tartans to late out of arc.....

 

Or the second choice of course being going around outside of range of the Venators and doing their thing there. There is an advantage to having Maneuverable Capital ships...

 

 

Edit: in other words, its NOT theoretical, nothing Theoretical about circling around, that is the job of 90% of Corvettes in a Capital ship battle, 1 Screen fighters, 2 get around to enemy blind spots using superior mobility.

Edited April 25, 2015 by tunewalker