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Kaggath Battlegrounds Final: Republic Resistance vs Imperial Droid Division


Beniboybling

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I have the umbrella of Republic intelligence during the Clone Wars, Clone Intelligence is definitely a separate entity but the SBI was integrated with RI on two separate occasions, both of them were directed by Armand Isard and he even sat upon Palpatine's personal council of trusted New Order advisors.

 

Clone Intelligence has employed Clone Shadow Troopers, SBI has employed Clone Shadow Troopers and RI has employed Clone Shadow Troopers.

 

The actual distinctions between the three agencies was in fact none-existent, as in reality all three were directed by Armand Isard, CI unofficially was directed by him as well due to his place on Palpatine's security council. In reality you are talking about three divisions of one agency. In all but an unofficial capacity.

 

They answered to Armand Isard, are not the same as Clone Intelligence Units and have worked for all three agencies.

 

Right now there are serious questions about RI's reach and your claims are tenuous and biased.

 

CI is definately independent and is essentially requested by RI and SBI for assistance much like the ARC commandos they're patterned off of. In the specific instance you're referencing, it happens after Grievous is found and is a military operation that isn't actually run by RI. So, no Ri never utilized shadow troopers.

 

Also, you have RI as your organization, not Armand Isard. His dealings don't change the nature of your organization as he (in this context) has no power outside the powerbase described (which is RI).

Edited by StarSquirrel
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CI employed them on Utapau before the invasion. RI employed them on Coruscant and at the end of the war directed them to secret facilities to guard.

 

Wasn't that on Utapau, and it was after the New Order was announced and the Republic had been dissolved.

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Right now there are serious questions about RI's reach and your claims are tenuous and biased.

 

CI is definately independent and is essentially requested by RI and SBI for assistance much like the ARC commandos they're patterned off of. In the specific instance you're referencing, it happens after Grievous is found and is a military operation that isn't actually run by RI. So, no Ri never utilized shadow troopers.

 

Also, you have RI as your organization, not Armand Isard. His dealings don't change the nature of your organization as he (in this context) has no power outside the powerbase described (which is RI).

 

You fail to realise how large RI is compared to the other two, RI is the actual intelligence organisation of the Galactic Republic and is vastly larger than the others, SBI is the police/political arm of the Galactic Republic and basically dealth with political dissidents and CIS propaganda, CI is the military's intelligence arm.

 

Republic Intelligence is an actual intelligence organisation and directed/enlisted the other two, calling me biased for pointing this out is completely uncalled for. I would suggest reading the actual content Armand appears in.

Edited by LadyKulvax
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Wasn't that on Utapau, and it was after the New Order was announced and the Republic had been dissolved.

 

Yes like I just told you. Which in reality is almost no different until the actual reforms came long after, Early Imperial Intelligence was almost exactly the same organization. Furthermore you are arguing upon a technicality whilst admitting that II and by extension RI have definite authority over their unit, your entire argument is based on absence of evidence. If Isard can direct them, RI by extension certainly would have.

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Well anyway, if Beni allows you to have the RI as a whole instead of just the RI then it's fine with me. Though that thing about Shadows being employed on Utapau seems iffy considering it's not mentioned anywhere else and the databank is just written by anyone who decides it. Edited by Wolfninjajedi
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As far as Inquisitors converting Jedi goes, they are just Inquisitors, you are assuming first off that they are good enough to take these Jedi Knights. Secondly they would have to go to Corellia and attack them to do so, which in my opinion would be fatal. They aren't going to be conveniently in bars or something, they would be in unit formations.

 

Underestimate them at your own peril. Each standard Inquisitor is at LEAST Jedi Knight level, as per their training and job requirements. I would dig out the exact source, but that was waaaay too long ago and Conquest long since had that PM cleared. I believe both Jarons and Selenial has the source, as you likely do as well LK. If I recall, it is a RPG manual for the dark side which describes Inquisitors and their abilities in generalities, which in essence show that the lowest is at least Jedi Knight level, with some of the more advanced Inquisitors being at or above Jedi Master level.

 

If there is one thing CW has taught me, is that when 2 saber wielders face off, those with blasters give them a wide birth... They will get plenty of chances.

 

Each organisation and supplier has a representative, Republic Intel was directed by him personally and him giving his own information to his faction is certainly within the rules. I however would posit the same query to you: How is the Inquisitorious capturing Jedi and wiping out organisations? Getting so directly involved is not permitted in the rules for organisations.

 

There are actually multiple reasons why the Inquisitorious can be used this way. For ease of use, bullet points.

- Jerec was named Grand Inquisitor last match (Meaning he OWNS the organization now)

- Inquisitor's already have a base on Coruscant

- Crushed enemy bases in their spare time when force users were absent

- RR has Jedi

- Ect

 

To note, Sil kinda shot yourself in the foot with troops. Or at least the Phase 1 Dark Troopers, considering these guys are strict melee oriented they will need to close the distance pretty fast if they want even a chance to kill any Clones. Now the Phase 2 can do some serious damage sure, with their flight, armor and weaponry damage output comparable to that of an Imperial Walker, just your Phase 1s are at a severe disadvantage unless they are operating in more close quarters settings.

 

Now if the IDD is allowed the Inquisitors from their organization, which seems to be ok. Then that gives them even more of a boon against the Jedi here. The Phase 2 DTs alone will give many problems to the Jedi with their phrik armor, throwing Force capable Inquisitors will give more advantage, although I wouldn't say much of considering the Inquisitors did vary on the power scale.

 

As far as personal battles going, Mace or Sun shouldn't really have any problem with Jerec and Desann. Cody I don't see him being able to defeat IG-88 at all.

 

So as far as personal fights the RR I feel take it, I'm not sure it's something that should even be argued really.

 

Well, they have served me quite well so far. :o That said, if used well in the confines of Coronet City, they will be at quite close range and do not forget they are still quite durable, just not nearly as much so as their descendants.

 

As for the lethality of the Inquisitor's, they aren't winning any grand prizes for power, but force user vs force user is their entire purpose for being, I believe that they will do just fine, even more so since as you said, same exact Jedi Knights they were trained to capture, convert, or kill.

 

For every one inquisitor I should get vastly more intel agents or this is completely broken.

 

That is not how this works. In terms of scale, the entirety, or near entirety, of the Inquisitorious are able to be called on for this Kaggath due to all of the circumstances. They had two bases total. Prakith and Coruscant. Both are within the confines of this match. For the RI, they have only a fraction of their power base and resources.

 

Except dozens of trained Dark Siders is easily the most powerful unit the IDD now has by far, by comparison a few dozen intel agents would be as good as thin air. Making things fair is the point of said rules.

 

No. Simply put, in terms of brute strength, the PIII are much more lethal than a standard Inquisitor, unless it is one of the Master level ones... In fact, one PIII could likely overwhelm multiple Jedi Knights due to its arsenal and armor.

 

The rules are intended to prevent insane things such as getting 100+ jedi/sith from organizations, and as you said, not near that range. For most factions and most characters they wouldn't even get that many Inquisitors out of the Inquisitorious, but this is a case of character lining up with organization, combined with previous Kaggath events.

 

 

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My point is that if these Inquisitors as you say are better than the Jedi Knights here then I should definitely get CSTs in considerable number because you have essentially been afforded a second elite ground force with your organisation. It swings the ground war considerably to your favor and yet when I argue that I should get something to balance it out I am the one being called biased by Star.

 

Honestly if the rules can be used in such a way where simply having the right leader involved affords you a much more powerful unit in far more numbers then I certainly would have liked to hear about it. I was also unaware that you can use my orgnisation world to empower your own forces.

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You fail to realise how large RI is compared to the other two, RI is the actual intelligence organisation of the Galactic Republic and is vastly larger than the others, SBI is the police/political arm of the Galactic Republic and basically dealth with political dissidents and CIS propaganda, CI is the military's intelligence arm.

 

Republic Intelligence is an actual intelligence organisation and directed/enlisted the other two, calling me biased for pointing this out is completely uncalled for. I would suggest reading the actual content Armand appears in.

 

I am calling you biased because all you've done so far is make unsubstantiated or poorly sourced claims that cling to assumptions, random power grabs, and frivolous dismissals of your opponents (I'll grant you I've done this so I'll be better about explaining in the future). You're making claims that vastly inflate your power base from what is commonly understood as Republic Intelligence (not Imperial/Clone/Senate/etc...) to something more that what you are due.

 

Seriously. No I don't think you get to use Armand Isard in his entirety as that violates the rules unless Beni specifically says otherwise. Like I said, explain why Beni didn't pull out Armand or Ysanne Isard in his match? Clone Shadow troopers are by your own admission not part of the RI, merely directed by them (much like the GAR is, well do you get the whole GAR as well since they work with the RI then?) then why do you think you can have them? And everyone recognizes a shift in the political structure even if members stay when the RI is turned into the II. But there is a significant enough difference that you can't claim the RI also bleeds into being the II as well.,

 

Seriously Rayla, I don't have a problem with recognizing the RI and its abilities. You have to understand, that in the context of this Kaggath, the size of the organization matters less because the size of the battlefield is much, much smaller. As a result a more elite, smaller force will do better than a sprawling unspecified organization that is good, but can't bring anything special to the table. You don't have to be better than everyone at everything, and you aren't due anything special beyond what your organization offers just because a leader (that isn't even a part of your faction's leadership) has connections to a completely separate organization.

Edited by StarSquirrel
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My point is that if these Inquisitors as you say are better than the Jedi Knights here then I should definitely get CSTs in considerable number because you have essentially been afforded a second elite ground force with your organisation. It swings the ground war considerably to your favor and yet when I argue that I should get something to balance it out I am the one being called biased by Star.

 

Honestly if the rules can be used in such a way where simply having the right leader involved affords you a much more powerful unit in far more numbers then I certainly would have liked to hear about it. I was also unaware that you can use my orgnisation world to empower your own forces.

 

To be fair, the Inquisitorious is not a pure intel agency nor a pure combat orientated organization. It is a little bit of both, and as I said, it is only due to the circumstances specific to this match, that there would be more than normal. It is no different than when Kuat Drive Yards provides the RR with heavy vehicles, except Inquisitors can not really be replaced. That said, I admit that if they are on the front lines intel will suffer, unless they take intel to the front lines.

 

Similar logic applies to cases with defections, which require certain things to occur. Such as distrust with rest of leader ship, some connection to the other side, willingness to join other side, chance to join other side, ect. This would be one of those very specific situations that happens once in a blue moon. As for Coruscant, that is just a stroke of luck. :o :o :o

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My point is that if these Inquisitors as you say are better than the Jedi Knights here then I should definitely get CSTs in considerable number because you have essentially been afforded a second elite ground force with your organisation. It swings the ground war considerably to your favor and yet when I argue that I should get something to balance it out I am the one being called biased by Star.

 

Honestly if the rules can be used in such a way where simply having the right leader involved affords you a much more powerful unit in far more numbers then I certainly would have liked to hear about it. I was also unaware that you can use my orgnisation world to empower your own forces.

 

You are being called biased for claiming you get things that you really honestly never should and that you have developed a habit of it. You keep doing it.

 

This isn't about fair, this is about fair for me.

 

Now I'll grant you that you have every right to be biased, as this is your faction. But just try to tone it down for everyone else's sake. I don't have a dog in this fight, so don't try to snap at me like I do. I call you biased because I'm calling it like I see it from an outside perspective. Now, I will admit, I could be more constructive and more polite about my criticism. You would have a valid point there.

Edited by StarSquirrel
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You are the one who made this personal for no reason whatsoever but to make it personal. I argue correctly that RI is the over-all intelligence organisation of the GR, both CI and SBI though separate are only arms of the senate and the military of the very same Republic. In reply you scream bias at me for requesting CSTs merely as a way for me to balance out the large increase in power the IDD has from it's own organization, as you have pointed out repeatedly in the rules I can obtain forces from my organisation.

 

I am arguing that the Inquisitors are very powerful in this context, through a part of a faction that isn't even really meant to enhance the ground forces of a faction nevermind supply an elite cadre of Dark Siders. I am not even arguing that Sil should not get them, simply that they not be overly numerous because that would massively effect the battle and potentially change it altogether despite organizatioms not being meant to be used in such a fashion. You call me biased even more for trying to maintain the balance i thought we had at the beginning, despite the fact said balance could be obtained In precisely the same fashion as Sil obtained his.

 

I am sorry that arguing for my faction at all makes me biased but that doesn't mean I am going to drop a debate simply to entertain your imagined slights.

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You call me biased even more for trying to maintain the balance i thought we had at the beginning, despite the fact said balance could be obtained In precisely the same fashion as Sil obtained his.

 

Trying to stay out of the whole Clone Shadow Trooper thing, but I felt I should mention that even before the Inquisitorious obtained the variables it has in this match, it still provided the IDD with Inquisitors that were used on Kaas. In effect no unit types were gained, but merely amplified due to the unforeseen variables. Heck, until the match actually started, I felt as if the IDD would do terribly on the ground against the RR, Inquisitors or no, but due to the developments, I am a bit more optimistic.

 

Now, depending on how well the three sabotage plans pan out, I might get more optimistic, or less. *shrug*

 

Either way, trying to keep it civil, so as usual, I mean no offense in any form, and if I have done so I apologize for the choice of words. That said, I am also trying not to go crazy into the Kaggath at this time. *Though I will defend the Inquisitorious if I must.* :d_grin:

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So it looks like some clarifications are in order.

 

Nek survived the space battle, as did Windu and IG-88.

 

Organisations are not limited - unlike suppliers - by their BOE:

 

#35 The organisation is capable of operating, and has access to all its assets outside the scope of its base of operations. Its abilities are not limited in anyway – only its abilities to provide your faction with physical units which can only be provided in small quantities.

So both Republic Intelligence and the Inquisitorious are working at full capacity, and the RI has all its galactic spanning resources, but they can't flood the Kaggath with hundreds of agents and the like.

 

I have yet to see any operations that conflict with this rule:

#36 Members of the organisation operate in the exact same way as members of the supplier, they can be acted upon but can only act upon their power base, this however does not apply to provided assets i.e. agents, mercenaries, droids etc. which operate as units.

Supplying agents and information to infiltrate and dismantle the Inquisitorius is perfectly fine and vice versa. Loopholes need to exploited to use one's organisation in its intended and full capacity. I wouldn't worry about rules concerning this matter, they are not very restrictive. As long as Isard isn't commanding fleets or clone trooper companies its fine.

 

Concerning the presence of Armand Isard, he exists:

#32 Members of said suppliers e.g. leaders, administrators etc. are also present in the Kaggath but they can only affect it in limited ways. They can be acted upon and influenced e.g. persuaded to defect, killed, reasoned with etc. but cannot directly take control or issue commands over anything other than their own power base e.g. your supply base.

As specified in Rule #36 this applies to the organisation as well.

 

However Star is correct that this is his Republic iteration, so he has no knowledge of the Inquisitorious. He is perfectly capable of supplying his knowledge and expertise to the Resistance however within the capacity of the organisation.

 

P.S. Ysanne was brought up in the last Kaggath Star, when it was foolishly proposed by the opposition that she would defect to the Imperial Droid Division. Suffice to say that argument was crushed underfoot. :jawa_evil:

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Exectute RR Fleet

- Similar to what was done to you last round, Beni

-10 points for lack of originality, -10 points for unflattering irony.

 

:jawa_evil:To throw in some points I'd note that the Imperial Droid Divisions' fleet is heavily damaged, however they have the shipyards on Sullust to conduct repairs. The Republic Resistance will also likely be receiving repairs from Kuat.

 

In both respects, leaving them vulnerable for interception/sabotage.

 

Its especially critical for the IDD, because while the Vengeance is to heavily damaged to be formidable, once repaired and with the Resistance robbed of the Imperious, it will most certainly outgun their entire fleet.

Edited by Beniboybling
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-10 points for lack of originality, -10 points for unflattering irony.

 

:jawa_evil:To throw in some points I'd note that the Imperial Droid Divisions' fleet is heavily damaged, however they have the shipyards on Sullust to conduct repairs. The Republic Resistance will also likely be receiving repairs from Kuat.

 

In both respects, leaving them vulnerable for interception/sabotage.

 

Its especially critical for the IDD, because while the Vengeance is to heavily damaged to be formidable, once repaired and with the Resistance robbed of the Imperious, it will most certainly outgun their entire fleet.

 

To be fair, I did add a backup scenario to it. :p

 

As for the fleets themselves, it is unlikely the RR fleet would all head to Kuat at once, which would leave Corellian space unblockaded or not enough ships to blockade.

 

Meanwhile, IG-2000 has a hyperdrive rating of 1.0, which while the same speed as a Venator... they start at the same location, over Corellia. (The IDD fleet is likely headed to Sullust, but the IG-2000 could remain in stealth over the planet, waiting for its chance, or if the RR fleet all goes to Kuat, pursuing.) While it might not sound like much, that ship can carry at least 8 Nova's, which are likely already on board due to how the space scenario played out. What defense does the RR have against IG-88 and his squad of Nova's? If they get aboard a vessel, it is basically doomed since all the Jedi, Windu, and likely Nek are all on Corellia.

 

So in essence, the RR would be unable to capitalize on the damaged IDD fleet, even if they wanted to. By the time they get repairs, the distance would be too great to get there before the Vengeance is fully repaired as well.

 

As for potential sabotage over Sullust, I do believe the Inquisitor Duo says hi again, as does travel time. :D

 

The end result being one of the two:

 

- IG-88 and his squad destroy the remaining RR ships while they are in dock or in orbit.

- IDD fleet gets repairs before RR fleet can reach Sullust, which means the Vengeance solo's remaining enemy's

 

Culminating in:

 

- RR blockade inevitably broken

- IDD achieves space superiority

 

Unless counters are brought forward that stop any possibility of either of those two, it is one of those screwed if you do, screwed if you don't situations. Jerec should give IG-88 a raise...

 

Side Note: I thought star fighters couldn't be replaced?

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So it looks like some clarifications are in order.

 

Nek survived the space battle, as did Windu and IG-88.

 

Organisations are not limited - unlike suppliers - by their BOE:

 

#35 The organisation is capable of operating, and has access to all its assets outside the scope of its base of operations. Its abilities are not limited in anyway – only its abilities to provide your faction with physical units which can only be provided in small quantities.

So both Republic Intelligence and the Inquisitorious are working at full capacity, and the RI has all its galactic spanning resources, but they can't flood the Kaggath with hundreds of agents and the like.

 

I have yet to see any operations that conflict with this rule:

#36 Members of the organisation operate in the exact same way as members of the supplier, they can be acted upon but can only act upon their power base, this however does not apply to provided assets i.e. agents, mercenaries, droids etc. which operate as units.

Supplying agents and information to infiltrate and dismantle the Inquisitorius is perfectly fine and vice versa. Loopholes need to exploited to use one's organisation in its intended and full capacity. I wouldn't worry about rules concerning this matter, they are not very restrictive. As long as Isard isn't commanding fleets or clone trooper companies its fine.

 

Concerning the presence of Armand Isard, he exists:

#32 Members of said suppliers e.g. leaders, administrators etc. are also present in the Kaggath but they can only affect it in limited ways. They can be acted upon and influenced e.g. persuaded to defect, killed, reasoned with etc. but cannot directly take control or issue commands over anything other than their own power base e.g. your supply base.

As specified in Rule #36 this applies to the organisation as well.

 

However Star is correct that this is his Republic iteration, so he has no knowledge of the Inquisitorious. He is perfectly capable of supplying his knowledge and expertise to the Resistance however within the capacity of the organisation.

 

P.S. Ysanne was brought up in the last Kaggath Star, when it was foolishly proposed by the opposition that she would defect to the Imperial Droid Division. Suffice to say that argument was crushed underfoot. :jawa_evil:

 

Not exactly sure how Nek survived given all the variables... but alright... Guess Daala is all alone for having gone down with her ship, despite having one of the more impressive survival records... :rolleyes:

 

That said, I find infiltration of the Inquisitorious by none force sensitives an impossibility. They would all sense the lack of any force power at all and it would be over before it began... I know you were likely just using it as an example, but just wanted to stomp it out before someone tried to run with it. :p

 

So, since Isard has no knowledge of the Inquisitorious, does that mean the plan to take out the RI on Coruscant is a go? :d_evil: (If it had been Imperial Isard, there is the possibility he would of preferred Imperial over Rebel/Republic...)

 

As for the younger Isard... I always said it was a mere possibility, NOT a likely hood. :rolleyes:

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Going to Sullust and repairing a heavily damaged monster-sized battlecruiser and dozens of other ships which are also heavily damaged is a whole other prospect compared to slight damage on a few Venators/Acclamators in the largest shipyard in the galaxy not even a day away from the area they battled in. Also starfighters would have been constructed from the beginning, meaning Venator complements could be partially replenished almost instantly. Essentially the RR is going to be ready for war far before the IDD will be and the upgrades to the RR fleet will drastically effect the battle to come. Using both CGTs and 220-SIGs Nek will be long prepared for any surprises to come.

 

Concerning organisations, this puts into play exactly what I hoped, this is an entire galaxy spanning intelligence organization facing off against an agency designed for hunting specific individuals. The information and infiltration resources may well cripple any operations attempted by the Inquisitorious, they will be many steps ahead by sheer virtue of number and resources. Setting traps well in advanced and even sending small armies of top clones to hunt them down is well within their capabilities. Having Director Isard, one of the best in the lore at his job will only increase their efficiency.

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The IG-2000 has a 2 hyperdrive rating.

 

Curse you wiki! *shakes fist*

 

Going to Sullust and repairing a heavily damaged monster-sized battlecruiser and dozens of other ships which are also heavily damaged is a whole other prospect compared to slight damage on a few Venators/Acclamators in the largest shipyard in the galaxy not even a day away from the area they battled in. Also starfighters would have been constructed from the beginning, meaning Venator complements could be partially replenished almost instantly. Essentially the RR is going to be ready for war far before the IDD will be and the upgrades to the RR fleet will drastically effect the battle to come. Using both CGTs and 220-SIGs Nek will be long prepared for any surprises to come.

 

Concerning organisations, this puts into play exactly what I hoped, this is an entire galaxy spanning intelligence organization facing off against an agency designed for hunting specific individuals. The information and infiltration resources may well cripple any operations attempted by the Inquisitorious, they will be many steps ahead by sheer virtue of number and resources. Setting traps well in advanced and even sending small armies of top clones to hunt them down is well within their capabilities. Having Director Isard, one of the best in the lore at his job will only increase their efficiency.

 

 

 

As for repairs, while the IDD took worse damage, that does not mean the entire RR fleet can be 100% repaired in a single day as you presume LK. Nor would it take much longer for the IDD fleet to get repaired at Sullust, not counting travel time which is a double edged sword. After all, while Kuat was the best shipyard in the galaxy, Sullust was no slouch in the ship building department if I recall correctly...

 

Given all the travel time, the RR would have to give chase before repairs in order to get there before the IDD are repaired.

 

As for the upgrades... From the scenario, it does not appear that the RR even knows that the IDD is using stealth tech, which means they will NOT be using CGT. The 220-SIG might come into play admittedly, since Nek noted the fighters and how well they were performing, which might lead him to assume something.

 

Though the RI simply will be unable to foil or infiltrate the IDD or the Inquisitorious, or even the Commerce Guild. They are basically arrayed perfectly to stop any infiltration by the RI since every single soldier for the IDD is a droid, those who are not are force sensitive, Trench is not even human, all the vehicles are self-controlled, Inquisitors have had Sullust staked out for quite a while, and the RI doesn't have access to CST.

 

As for many steps ahead, I have to question since during the CW, the iteration of Isard that is used, the Republic was surprised, sabotaged, duped, and plain out of the loop in many intel related matters. Malevolence? Blue Shadow Virus? Lack of infiltration? Coruscant itself sabotaged? There are many black marks on the RI's CW record. I am not implying the Inquisitorious has a perfect record either.

 

As for information gathering, what will they really get that will mean anything? Both factions already know where the others HQ is, so that is one key piece out the window. The organizations? Nothing can be done with that given all the precautions and such setup unless forces are diverted from Kuat. The only possible one is perhaps movements on Corellia, but even that is severely limited due to Inquisitors direct presence and that Dark Troopers do not simply march around like the CIS as RI is used to.

 

In summery of RI:

- Infiltration not possible

- Intel limited

- No clone shadow troopers

- Inquisitors countering front line actions

 

This is all also assuming that the Inquisitorious somehow fails in its assault on the RI HQ. Which the Inquisitorious knows every single thing about, seeing how it had turned into II HQ, and they were a branch of such as keeps being mentioned. Nor does the RI have units to repel Inquisitors should they appear on their door step. Which would culminate in the database of RI being eradicated, leadership gone, no more support, and a huge hit to morale.

 

Unless of course, there is something at the RI HQ on Coruscant that can stop the Inquisitorious' attack?

Edited by Silenceo
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