Kaggath Battlegrounds Final: Republic Resistance vs Imperial Droid Division

[raandomname]

1.They know all about the TIEs being used however and intelligence will be ever-present.

2.No problem against long-range tracking cannons? they are not A-wings.

3.Fighter defenses aren't going to be as effective against a mass swarm of heavy fighters.

4.Multiple ships/fighters in the RR fleet have concs/assault concs.

5.Said formation is going to lose it's shielding quickly and be exposed against extremely fast and tough starfighters with the firepower required to cause heavy damage.

6.Venator shielding is going to be strong when they can focus it forwardly, not to mention the extremely tough Acclamators will be in a formation covering the Venators. Also those cannons aren't nearly that accurate.

1. From where does the RR know about the TIEs exactly?

2. As Wolf said: long range or fast tracking.

4. Which exactly?

5. You are really overestimating your starfighters. The IDD has its own fighters that are able to cause huge damage with concussion missiles from a far, the IDD has extremely advanced corvettesthat are built specifically to counter Rebel fighters that are in many ways similar to RR fighters and well defended heavy cruisers with loade of point defenses and light turbolasers that will be able to hit the RR's less maneuverable fighters (excluding TwinTails to some extent) and do extra damage.

[LadyKulvax]

1. From where does the RR know about the TIEs exactly?

2. As Wolf said: long range or fast tracking.

4. Which exactly?

5. You are really overestimating your starfighters. The IDD has its own fighters that are able to cause huge damage with concussion missiles from a far, the IDD has extremely advanced corvettesthat are built specifically to counter Rebel fighters that are in many ways similar to RR fighters and well defended heavy cruisers with loade of point defenses and light turbolasers that will be able to hit the RR's less maneuverable fighters (excluding TwinTails to some extent) and do extra damage.

1.Each faction knows basic information about their opponents, only allies are the exception.

2."In it's precise, long-range tracking mode, the DBY-827 could hit a target vessel at a range of 10 light-minutes."

4.X-83 TwinTails have Proton Torpodoes, Acclamators have heavy Proton Torpedoes and Conc Missiles. Venators have Heavy Proton Torpedo tubes.

5.Actually I think you are under-rating them and not affording them the quality they deserve, due to this i will give a detailed rundown:

 

Crossfire starfighters are the fastest fighters here and have comparable maneuverability, they can lose entire pieces of their craft and still carry on regardless, they are durable and extremely agile, taking them down is going to be far from easy.

 

X-83 TwinTail Starfighters are extremely fast, very maneuverable, have shuttle/light frigate class hull armor and shielding and have capital ship damaging load-outs. Better yet they have advanced Astromech Droids that can co-ordinate entire formations and mass calculate jumps, the IDD fleet may find itself swarmed in a starfighter screen right in their midst and have no idea where it came from.

 

The Ionizer is a durable heavy bomber that deals in Ion weaponry, one of their bombs can cripple entire sections of capital ships, they have far larger payloads than just one however. They could literally cripple the Praetor and leave it dead in the water for concs/heavy protons to deal the genuine damage.

Edited April 30, 2015 by LadyKulvax

[Beniboybling]

I'd just like to be clear on what factions do and do not know:

#104 Combatants have limited knowledge of their opponents. They are only aware of the nature of the enemies Head of State and Second-in-Command, not their allies of whom they do not know exist, finally they are aware of the size and firepower of military forces as well as possessing basic knowledge of their nature, though not prior to the match, only on recognition – the extent of this info will be similar to that of its summary on a Wookiee article.

So they would not be aware of the existence of the TIEs specifically until they see them in battle. Nor are prior preparations permitted before the Kaggath proper. Furthermore considering these units were made after the effective reformation of Republic Intelligence, they will not have any comprehensive knowledge on these units.

 

So yeah we are talking the following:

The TIE/D automated fighter, or droid/drone TIE fighter, was a TIE Series starfighter used by the reborn Emperor Palpatine during his attacks on the New Republic in 10 ABY.

 

...

 

Shadow Droids were Imperial starfighters piloted by surgically implanted organic brains, making the Shadow Droid more of a cyborg rather than a true battle droid.

 

--Taken from Wookieepedia

I don't feel that will be enough information to know about the TIE/D, Shadow Droid coordination. But considering that they are droids, its likely that Nek would infer they depend on these kinds of communication.

 

But again, without this prior knowledge Nek will not be bringing jamming tech along with her. Its possible that the warships at his disposal possess basic jamming technology, but its not going to be anything considerably crippling.

[tunewalker]

1.Each faction knows basic information about their opponents, only allies are the exception.

2."In it's precise, long-range tracking mode, the DBY-827 could hit a target vessel at a range of 10 light-minutes."

4.X-83 TwinTails have Proton Torpodoes, Acclamators have heavy Proton Torpedoes and Conc Missiles. Venators have Heavy Proton Torpedo tubes.

5.Actually I think you are under-rating them and not affording them the quality they deserve, due to this i will give a detailed rundown:

 

Crossfire starfighters are the fastest fighters here and have comparable maneuverability, they can lose entire pieces of their craft and still carry on regardless, they are durable and extremely agile, taking them down is going to be far from easy.

 

X-83 TwinTail Starfighters are extremely fast, very maneuverable, have shuttle/light frigate class hull armor and shielding and have capital ship damaging load-outs. Better yet they have advanced Astromech Droids that can co-ordinate entire formations and mass calculate jumps, the IDD fleet may find itself swarmed in a starfighter screen right in their midst and have no idea where it came from.

 

The Ionizer is a durable heavy bomber that deals in Ion weaponry, one of their bombs can cripple entire sections of capital ships, they have far larger payloads than just one however. They could literally cripple the Praetor and leave it dead in the water for concs/heavy protons to deal the genuine damage.

 

2. Percise Doesnt not Equate to Fast tracking.... and that means max range is 180 KM, now its their PERCISSION that allows them to fire at that range, but I garantee they still dont hit everything at their max range, no ship does. The Venator has been shown having some of its shots miss at that range. So ya it CAN hit larger slower moving targets at 180 KM, but Percision does not mean Fast tracking.

[tunewalker]

I'd just like to be clear on what factions do and do not know:

#104 Combatants have limited knowledge of their opponents. They are only aware of the nature of the enemies Head of State and Second-in-Command, not their allies of whom they do not know exist, finally they are aware of the size and firepower of military forces as well as possessing basic knowledge of their nature, though not prior to the match, only on recognition – the extent of this info will be similar to that of its summary on a Wookiee article.

So they would not be aware of the existence of the TIEs specifically until they see them in battle. Nor are prior preparations permitted before the Kaggath proper. Furthermore considering these units were made after the effective reformation of Republic Intelligence, they will not have any comprehensive knowledge on these units.

 

So yeah we are talking the following:

The TIE/D automated fighter, or droid/drone TIE fighter, was a TIE Series starfighter used by the reborn Emperor Palpatine during his attacks on the New Republic in 10 ABY.

 

...

 

Shadow Droids were Imperial starfighters piloted by surgically implanted organic brains, making the Shadow Droid more of a cyborg rather than a true battle droid.

 

--Taken from Wookieepedia

I don't feel that will be enough information to know about the TIE/D, Shadow Droid coordination. But considering that they are droids, its likely that Nek would infer they depend on these kinds of communication.

 

But again, without this prior knowledge Nek will not be bringing jamming tech along with her. Its possible that the warships at his disposal possess basic jamming technology, but its not going to be anything considerably crippling.

 

You did it again.

 

 

Nek= Him

 

 

Nek had a relationship with a Straight female human named Daala, I am sure you know who she is....

[Beniboybling]

You did it again.

 

 

Nek= Him

 

 

Nek had a relationship with a Straight female human named Daala, I am sure you know who she is....

Lol, for the purposes of the Kaggath Nek is now female. Learn 2 deal. Edited April 30, 2015 by Beniboybling

[tunewalker]

Lol, for the purposes of the Kaggath Nek is now female. Learn 2 deal.

 

No Beni I dont want to be part of your weird sex change fantasies.... keep that to yourself .

[LadyKulvax]

2. Percise Doesnt not Equate to Fast tracking.... and that means max range is 180 KM, now its their PERCISSION that allows them to fire at that range, but I garantee they still dont hit everything at their max range, no ship does. The Venator has been shown having some of its shots miss at that range. So ya it CAN hit larger slower moving targets at 180 KM, but Percision does not mean Fast tracking.

 

It is called "Long-Range tracking mode" and is described as precise and even given a range, tracking isn't just implied but stated.

 

Regardless of this the Tartans aren't going to trash 2,000 Heavy Starfighters(That is how many you have left when detracting the IDD's own fighters) solo when they can be knocked out with one Ion hit, the Ionizers will be brutal.

 

Think about it: X-83s with light frigate class armor/shielding tank the incoming fire of the enemy fleet and once through the unscratched Ionizer formations sweep through crippling ships left and right with impunity, how does the IDD counter that? Point defense turrets? they simply are not enough.

 

Here is the Nek flavor of tactic: X-83s make a short in-system jump to the midst of the enemy fleet using their extremely advanced Astromechs to map it out for the pilots and get the drop on the enemy fighters as they launch and cause massive casualties at the start. Ionizers knock out most or possibly even all enemy capital ships with their Ion Bombs in the confusion and allow the Venators/Acclamators to shoot them like a fish in a barrel.

 

These are the tactics that Trench has to attempt to counter, I assure you said tactics will not end there.

[Beniboybling]

That is an interesting strategy, assuming Nek is capable of it, however one problem is the time it will take for the Republic Resistance to field their fighters. They can certainly do so faster than most thanks to their hangars, but take into account the IDDs forces are all automated, so we will be dealing with equally rapid deployment times on their end.

 

The point being that while the Resistance's fighters will be able to rapidly close the gap in this manner, they may find themselves in the middle of a swarm of fighters, not to mention extensive laser and point-defense systems.

 

And without capital ship back up that could prove problematic, as the IDD would be at liberty to concentrate fire.

[tunewalker]

That is an interesting strategy, assuming Nek is capable of it, however one problem is the time it will take for the Republic Resistance to field their fighters. They can certainly do so faster than most thanks to their hangars, but take into account the IDDs forces are all automated, so we will be dealing with equally rapid deployment times on their end.

 

The point being that while the Resistance's fighters will be able to rapidly close the gap in this manner, they may find themselves in the middle of a swarm of fighters, not to mention extensive laser and point-defense systems.

 

And without capital ship back up that could prove problematic, as the IDD would be at liberty to concentrate fire.

 

Only the Venators will rapid unload, (what was that around 1600 or so... probably a little more) teh Acclamators will be a bit slower to, and if the Monster ship on the IDD's end can manage to blow up a couple... well you get the idea.

 

 

Will cover difference in "long range tracking" and "fast tracking" when I get off work.

Edited April 30, 2015 by tunewalker

[raandomname]

It is called "Long-Range tracking mode" and is described as precise and even given a range, tracking isn't just implied but stated.

 

Regardless of this the Tartans aren't going to trash 2,000 Heavy Starfighters(That is how many you have left when detracting the IDD's own fighters) solo when they can be knocked out with one Ion hit, the Ionizers will be brutal.

 

Think about it: X-83s with light frigate class armor/shielding tank the incoming fire of the enemy fleet and once through the unscratched Ionizer formations sweep through crippling ships left and right with impunity, how does the IDD counter that? Point defense turrets? they simply are not enough.

 

Here is the Nek flavor of tactic: X-83s make a short in-system jump to the midst of the enemy fleet using their extremely advanced Astromechs to map it out for the pilots and get the drop on the enemy fighters as they launch and cause massive casualties at the start. Ionizers knock out most or possibly even all enemy capital ships with their Ion Bombs in the confusion and allow the Venators/Acclamators to shoot them like a fish in a barrel.

 

These are the tactics that Trench has to attempt to counter, I assure you said tactics will not end there.

 

1. Space combat in Star Wars does not work like this. I have never seen or heard of a single space battle where one side won with fighters alone. It just isnt happening.

Edit: fighters need capital ships for support and vice versa. Basic combined arms warfare. When the enemy can concentrate all his fire on your fighters, they will go down fairly quickly.

2. Besides, your fighters have no feats that I am awre of that actually support the level of power that you claim they have.

3a. Ionizers will not one shot corvettes in fact according to Wookiee it takes one squadron of Ionizers to disable a light freighter. Thats really unimpressive.

3b. The Tartans have strong defenses and are very large for corvettes and will thus take quite a beating.

4. For the thousandth time you will loose around 1000 fighters to concussion missiles alone.

5. Ionizers are not very durable. Ehile their armor is heavy they basically lack all shielding and are very unmaneuverable.

Edited April 30, 2015 by raandomname

[ShadowMudkip]

1. Space combat in Star Wars does not work like this. I have never seen or heard of a single space battle where one side won with fighters alone. It just isnt happening.

Edit: fighters need capital ships for support and vice versa. Basic combined arms warfare. When the enemy can concentrate all his fire on your fighters, they will go down fairly quickly.

2. Besides, your fighters have no feats that I am awre of that actually support the level of power that you claim they have.

3a. Ionizers will not one shot corvettes in fact according to Wookiee it takes one squadron of Ionizers to disable a light freighter. Thats really unimpressive.

3b. The Tartans have strong defenses and are very large for corvettes and will thus take quite a beating.

4. For the thousandth time you will loose around 1000 fighters to concussion missiles alone.

5. Ionizers are not very durable. Ehile their armor is heavy they basically lack all shielding and are very unmaneuverable.

 

1. Obligatory 1st Death Star mention

2. Wookie has them

3. dont have anything to say

4. Where are you getting the specific number of 1000?

5. Again I dont know that much about ionizers.

[Wolfninjajedi]

1. Obligatory 1st Death Star mention

 

You mean the battle where Red/Gold squadron got their **** kicked in and was only saved by Han coming in at the last moment?

 

Also I think he's talking about capital ship against capital ship.

 

Also now maybe I can clear this thing up, but what's the argument around turbolaser ranges and what not?

 

Also has it been brought up that the Venator's hangers would be vulnerable to bombing attacks and such?

Edited April 30, 2015 by Wolfninjajedi

[Selenial]

You mean the battle where Red/Gold squadron got their **** kicked in and was only saved by Han coming in at the last moment?

 

Also I think he's talking about capital ship against capital ship.

 

Also now maybe I can clear this thing up, but what's the argument around turbolaser ranges and what not?

 

Also has it been brought up that the Venator's hangers would be vulnerable to bombing attacks and such?

 

Yeh, but the squadrons got destroyed by the fighters or their own ineptitude, the Turbolasers on the Death Star were fundamentally flawed in that they couldn't fire beyond a certain angle, the attack run probably would have worked without a fighter intervention... But that's completely irrelevant to be honest, a space battle is an entire seperate entity to an attack on a station.

 

I think the argument is that they're less accurate at range, and I'm not going to lie I find Rayla's arguments pretty hyperbolic on that front. We see Venator literally missing capital ships in TCW, the idea they're perfectly accurate is ridiculous. If they hit the Tartan's it's more likely to be blind luck than skill.

 

And I don't think so, but it's a valid point.

Edited April 30, 2015 by Selenial

[Silenceo]

Just want to ask before much more is said regarding the Suppliers. Are they currently contributing at all to the RR's space points? If so, I might have to propose my... "solution" immediately... Like, seriously, the IDD is almost perfectly arrayed to decimate both of the RR's suppliers within the first week of the battle. (It's not as simple as most attempts to take out Suppliers, but very much due to unique characteristics and such that the IDD possess, as well as units they have. )

 

Anyways, if the RR's suppliers are not contributing to the space battle, no need to outline the plan specifics currently.

 

(I also will say though that the IDD is likely the best suited for bypassing blockades with methods mentioned in previous matches than any other faction so far. Drop pods, stealth, and ect ftw!)

[tunewalker]

Ok so what I was going to say about Long Range tracking and Fast tracking differences.

 

 

Look at a sniper shooting down range, when he moves his gun just a little it moves the bullet a lot, its High rate of "deflection" I think its called. vs a guy at short range moving a hand gun at a much faster rate as the closeness of the target means greater movement of the gun is needed to keep track of said moving target.

 

 

Now to go onto the "Long Range tracking" thing. In TCW we can see them basically fire all 8 of their guns and still only hit about 3 of them at capital ships that move less then half the speed of the Tartans and are more then Double the size. Further when it comes to "long range shots" we have seen similar showings from Imperial ships, to be more specific and more accurate they may hit about 20% LESS shots, but I see no reason to think their max range is any less, nor that their greater gun numbers to make up for their slightly reduced accuracy. It will be at Mid Range that both sides find they are able to hit the most and that is the Range the Venators are ultimately going to STRIVE to stay out of but given their speed is not noted as anything special for destroyer, and they will likely have a rough time of that given the other ships here.

 

 

Basically at that long range, the Venators history does not support hitting such a small and nimble target. Its more then capable of moving around them in this fassion and any shots fired in such a wasteful manner is just going to put them further behind.

 

Also I still do believe when utilized properly each Tartan is worth 5 squads.... 20 x 5= 100x 12= 1,200. This is taking into account the idea that they will be lossed from being hit by Venators and Acclamators. that leaves 2,400 Fighters, I estimate 3 Acclamators full could be lost before deployment as the Acclamators deployment speeds are nothing not worthy and more then 3 acclamators could be lost before they fully deploy. That's another 240, leaving 2,160 fighters vs how ever many the IDD has and more specifically (as I have stated before we need to stop refering them as single fighters and more as squads, as its highly unlikely for a single fighter to make that much of an impact on ships these sizes) so that is 180 squads remaining not a bad strength at all and more then capable of doing VERY serious damage, but I dont know how many Squads the IDD has.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Just to bring something else up, the guys behind the ones operating said weapons on the Tartans and other things in relation to turbolaser emplacements and so forth.

 

Imperial Gunners, these guys either didn't make the cut into becoming TIE pilots or are pilots in training. Regardless of this, it's noted they have superior reflexes, keen eyesight, are master gunners and sport specialized computer helmets equipped with macrobioncular veiwplates and sensor arrays to help hit fast moving starfighters.

Edited May 1, 2015 by Wolfninjajedi

[Aurbere]

1. Space combat in Star Wars does not work like this. I have never seen or heard of a single space battle where one side won with fighters alone. It just isnt happening.

 

Jan Dodonna made the Rebels pretty successful on that front, so it can happen.

[Selenial]

Jan Dodonna made the Rebels pretty successful on that front, so it can happen.

 

Except Dodonna was fighting a campaign with superior fighters and pilots, picking and choosing targets and fighting ships with terrible fighter defense.

 

This is completely different unfortunately.

Edited May 1, 2015 by Selenial

[Beniboybling]

I estimate 3 Acclamators full could be lost before deployment as the Acclamators deployment speeds are nothing not worthy and more then 3 acclamators could be lost before they fully deploy.

Really? The IDD is going to take out three Acclamators in what the first 5-10 minutes of the battle?

 

That seems farfetched to me, especially considering how durable they are.

 

Anyway this has still gone uncountered, so I'm going to raise it again for discussion.

Edited May 1, 2015 by Beniboybling

[tunewalker]

Really? The IDD is going to take out three Acclamators in what the first 5-10 minutes of the battle?

 

That seems farfetched to me, especially considering how durable they are.

 

Anyway this has still gone uncountered, so I'm going to raise it again for discussion.

 

I think it will take LONGER then 5-10 minutes for them to field their full force. I was looking at around an hour, or more.

Edited May 1, 2015 by tunewalker

[Beniboybling]

I think it will take LONGER then 5-10 minutes for them to field their full force. I was looking at around an hour, or more.

I guess if your argument is that if an Acclamator is destroyed, some of the fighters it has yet to field will go down with it.

 

Still I'd say the same applies to the IDD, it won't be a race to get all your fighters out of the bays, and destroying capital ships in general is going to limit/cut off the current fighter pools reinforcements and resupply.

[tunewalker]

I guess if your argument is that if an Acclamator is destroyed, some of the fighters it has yet to field will go down with it.

 

Still I'd say the same applies to the IDD, it won't be a race to get all your fighters out of the bays, and destroying capital ships in general is going to limit/cut off the current fighter pools reinforcements and resupply.

 

Yes this is true, I just find the IDD's being less of an issue because they arent as reliant ON their fighters.

[Beniboybling]

So any more thoughts, maybe some final arguments are in order...

[LadyKulvax]

I think one thing we need to end with is that Trench has never faced a Nek calibre opponent before, He either plays large scale defense or brute force offense. Nek works on entirely different levels of strategy, Nek with smaller fleets against vastly larger armadas such as the Vong and Killiks was consistently successful, brute forcing him just isn't sufficient. Trench can't play defensive against a force that increases daily in size so he has to go offensive and win as soon as he can.

 

Trench has not shown any form of offensive strategies or tactics sufficient enough to break Nek, Nek will out play him continuously with ambushes and traps just like he did against the Vong and the Killiks.

 

Admiral Daala and the likes tried to defeat him with larger array of firepower and they got completely schooled in the attempt. They are demonstratively better in everywhere than Trench, he is not a bad admiral by any means but I see no reason to place him even on Pallaeon/Daala tier, nevermind Nek/Thrawn tier.

 

Nek has all the means and advantages by which to defeat Trench, Trench is on the clock and will be pressured by Jerec into defeating Nek early, an offensive against a far better fleet admiral whom will bank on being attacked and thus plan ten steps ahead may be near suicidal.