Kaggath Battlegrounds Final: Republic Resistance vs Imperial Droid Division

[tunewalker]

Also dunno where the Vindicator are getting their armament numbers, because the sources that it points to Starships of the Galaxy, the Vindicator isn't even on the sourcebook.

 

Its likely from "X-wing" as the ship seems to be the "small Imperial" from X-wing simply to give the player something LIKE an Imperial to fly against, that wasnt ACTUALLY an Imperial....

[Beniboybling]

Side Note: As for not scaling down with the rule, that is quite abusable... That reminds me of the situation of Trench vs Vong. Simply because the Vong came in a later date, they would of had an advantage had Trench not been given the utmost basics about the Vong. Here, the X-83 is out of time. Similar logic would apply if a Imp-II showed up in a fight against the Old Republic. If tech is not scaled, the Imp-II solo's, hence the entire reason for that rule. Here, it is a star fighter, but the advance of tech, which is supposed to be equalized, is essentially boosting instead, despite there being a direct comparison with the earlier X-wing models between it. Anyways, not a hill I am willing to die on, just think it is odd and exploitable if planned for. Really we should see if we can find how well the Predator's do against the Twin-tails or something else from the Legacy era to provide a proper and equal level comparison. Nor am I saying Twintail 100% = standard X-wing. No, despite this even if down-scaled it would still be quite lethal, more so than the standard X-wing.

It scales up, not down, because if we start scaling down we start stripping units of their capabilities, and that's inaccurate. For example the TwinTail despite being a model of the X-Wing series is clearly not a standard X-Wing, which for the record is what you are suggesting/demanding whether those are your intentions or not.

 

It is quite obvious that the TwinTail is a unique and elite fighter in itself designed for front-line service with the purposes of effectively tanking incoming fire, the X-Wing was never designed to do this.

 

Anyway in terms of fighters, I really don't see the need. In terms of armament they are unchanged since the Old Republic era, two to four laser cannons, some proton torpedoes, maybe a missile or two etc. etc.

 

Speed is not an issue either, we just use how it compared to its contemporaries, in this case the TwinTail was the best of its era, it is therefore the best of any era of fighters it is up against, unless they possess identical accolades.

[tunewalker]

Also again i DO believe the Tartans are being under played here. They did their job against ships stronger then the Venators and Acclamators. There is no reason to think they couldnt do it here.

[tunewalker]

It scales up, not down, because if we start scaling down we start stripping units of their capabilities, and that's inaccurate. For example the TwinTail despite being a model of the X-Wing series is clearly not a standard X-Wing, which for the record is what you are suggesting/demanding whether those are your intentions or not.

 

It is quite obvious that the TwinTail is a unique and elite fighter in itself designed for front-line service with the purposes of effectively tanking incoming fire, the X-Wing was never designed to do this.

 

Anyway in terms of fighters, I really don't see the need. In terms of armament they are unchanged since the Old Republic era, two to four laser cannons, some proton torpedoes, maybe a missile or two etc. etc.

 

Speed is not an issue either, we just use how it compared to its contemporaries, in this case the TwinTail was the best of its era, it is therefore the best of any era of fighters it is up against, unless they possess identical accolades.

 

Which means the IDD fighters are getting MASSIVE buffs?

[Silenceo]

And have you got a source for that (including the Imperial Aces part), because that would be useful info.[/color]

 

The link to the post from last Kaggath, which I linked early on, page 6.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=7831680&postcount=11

 

The specific quotes for the Shadow Droids:

 

 

Umak Leth removed the still-living gray matter from grievously wounded or incapacitated TIE fighter aces. They cybernetic hardware stripped the pilots of every remaining shred of humanity, but augmented their reflexes and abilities far beyond anything they would have otherwise known.

As a final twisted 'gift' Palpatine's clone bestowed upon his creations the limited ability to touch the darkside.

 

- Taken from Essential Guide to Vehicles & Vessels

 

 

Shadow Droids are actually cyborgs rather than true droids. Their biotic nature gives them an additional advantage that automantons can't match, the sleek fighters are armed with the power of the Darkside.

 

- Taken from Essential Guide to Vehicles & Vessels

 

As for the quotes on Imperial Pilots in general, I think I have quoted them before, but here ya are! *Thanks again Wolf!*

 

The top pilots in the galaxy are found in the Imperial Navy.

 

- Taken from Imperial Sourcebook 2nd edition

Straightforward.

 

Quote:

TIE pilots form an elite group within the Imperial Navy. Each candidate for admission into the rigorous TIE training program must undergo a strenuous screening and testing process.

 

- Taken from Imperial Sourcebook 2nd edition

TIE pilots are an elite group, the training is rigorous for those that pass through the screening and testing process.

 

Quote:

Imperial Fighter pilots form an elite group within the Imperial Navy. Only 10% of those accepted into training graduate with commissions.

 

- Taken from Episodes IV-VI Visual Dictionary

Only 10% actually become pilots.

 

Quote:

TIE pilot training was second to none, less than 10% made the grade, and the Imperial Pilot Corps was considered an elite unit within the Imperial Navy. The high performance of their fighters meant that pilots had to have reaction speeds well above normal.

- Taken from Fact File 13

 

As for the Imperial doctrine for star fighters, it can easily be found if you examine their capital ships. The easiest to follow example would be the ISD-I, but the Victory, Strike's, and other ships seem to follow this same exact formula. You know Beni, we have gone over this same exact ground in all 3 matches now.

 

The standard wing included four TIE Fighter squadrons (one squadron often referred to be a reconnaissance squadron of TIE/rc starfighters), one squadron of TIE Interceptors, one squadron of TIE Bombers (lower priority ships had to make do with TIE/gt starfighter-bombers). Often one or two flights in a fighter squadron were TIE/fc starfighters. Sometimes one of the fighter squadrons was used for training purposes. By the Battle of Endor, one of these fighter squadrons had been phased out in favor of a second squadron of TIE Interceptors.[26]

 

Curse you! Drawing me in by making me get the quotes! I will get you for this...

[Beniboybling]

There are no Acclamator variants that are for Starfighters, the only other variant is the Mark 2 which is designed around Orbital bombardment.

 

The showing in OCW is inconsistent with the rest of the lore.

 

As for the Imperial Ace thing for Shadow Droids.

But it exists, OCW is part of Star Wars continuity, therefore this variant exists.

[Beniboybling]

Which means the IDD fighters are getting MASSIVE buffs?

I'm no expert on the Legacy era, but the Predator fighter seems a suitable analog.

[Wolfninjajedi]

But it exists, OCW is part of Star Wars continuity, therefore this variant exists.

 

Yet this variant is nowhere to be found, ever in any other source. Let's also not forget, that this was before changes being made to ships, Venators being brought forth.

 

If anything, the Accalamator has been changed to strictly a planetary invasion ship with the Venator taking over as the starfighter carrier. Which makes sense, because the Accalmator is shown and noted as just being a carrier for an invasion force for planets, the Venator being the starfighter carrier for the ship battles.

Edited April 27, 2015 by Wolfninjajedi

[Beniboybling]

Yet this variant is nowhere to be found, ever in any other source. Let's also not forget, that this was before changes being made to ships, Venators being brought forth.

 

If anything, the Accalamator has been changed to strictly a planetary invasion ship with the Venator taking over as the starfighter carrier.

It doesn't matter, we can't make an appeal to ignorance or rather an absence of evidence to dispute its evident existence. Unless you have a source states no Acclamator class of this kind exists, its exists by OCW.

Curse you! Drawing me in by making me get the quotes! I will get you for this...

You have done well, Lord Silenceo. Edited April 27, 2015 by Beniboybling

[Wolfninjajedi]

It doesn't matter, we can't make an appeal to ignorance or rather an absence of evidence to dispute its evident existence. Unless you have a source states no Acclamator class of this kind exists, its exists by OCW.

 

If it existed, don't you think it would be noted somewhere? Anywhere at all? It doesn't, it only exists in OCW before the Venators came in, thus it was changed to a strict planetary invasion ship.

 

I would think it not being noted anywhere, says that it doesn't exist.

 

But fine, use this one showing and no other source saying such a variant exists.

Edited April 27, 2015 by Wolfninjajedi

[tunewalker]

You're getting on a mighty high horse here, Mr "Saba Sebatyne and Corran Horn could each beat Vitiate". Yah, I'm the one with an Era bias here

 

You seriously need a better argument than "Read civil war stuff because you're wrong" when you've yet to refute a single of the lines of the Tarkin Doctrine. Squads of Rebellion fighters could take on an Imperial-1 by flying low, since their turbolasers could not go beyond a 90 degree angle. If it was a venator however, the fighters would be slaughtered in droves and the Empire would have won the war. Instead, Tarkin, the guy who refused to leave the Death Star as a precaution felt that the Imperials kept the systems in line with large scary ships.

 

Again, please refute a single one of those Doctrine quotes and I'll get back to you.

 

It doesnt NEED "refuting" it proves every point i made.

 

 

What was the Reaction to the Death Star.

 

"What good are Snub fighters going to be against THAT"

 

"Look at the size of that thing"

 

"Attacking that Battle station isnt my Idea of Courage, more like..... Suicide"

 

The idea of the Tarkin Doctrine was sound.

 

Further it ONLY worked if the ship had such overwhelming firepower that the "tactical" idea of "Lets approach it with fighters, or Lets get out of its gun sights" wasnt even thought of because people were to busy PISSING themselves at the overwhelming firepower the ship had.

 

I wasnt talking tactics, as the Empire DID find ways to fix "vulnerabilities" (Tartan-class) but that doesnt change its overall purpose, nor does it change what it was. It traded Small ship tactical Viability for such an overwhelming amount of firepower as to Strike FEAR into the enemies hearts.

 

Had the Imperial Not been invent the Victory would have taken that role... and did take that role until the Imperials could be fielded in large enough numbers before being decommissioned and then Recommissioned under the same Military Doctrine.

[tunewalker]

But it exists, OCW is part of Star Wars continuity, therefore this variant exists.

 

To me it sounds like OCW brought in Venators earlier then intended, and that those ships ARENT acclamators but Miss Drawn Venators....

[StarSquirrel]

It doesn't matter, we can't make an appeal to ignorance or rather an absence of evidence to dispute its evident existence. Unless you have a source states no Acclamator class of this kind exists, its exists by OCW.

 

#10 Any units lacking in substantial information are not permitted as faction choices.

 

And you don't have enough solid info on the OCW Acclamator to pass this rule Beni. If you'd like though you can repeal this rule and open the can of worms that follows it if you'd like.

Edited April 27, 2015 by StarSquirrel

[Silenceo]

Doing a little digging, and while I am not 100% sure when they were encountered, it turns out the Shadow Droids were still being used in the Legacy era by Sith Lords. Now, if I can pin point when and where...

 

(Help is of course appreciated)

[Wolfninjajedi]

Also in the OCW you see Venators actually start making an appearance shown here..

 

https://youtu.be/XVk9lPotcW4?t=4938

 

Also at 1:23:12

Edited April 27, 2015 by Wolfninjajedi

[Beniboybling]

#10 Any units lacking in substantial information are not permitted as faction choices.

 

And you don't have enough solid info on the OCW Acclamator to pass this rule Beni. If you'd like though you can repeal this rule and open the can of worms that follows it if you'd like.

 

Edit: also, looking at the show again, I think Tune has a point. Those have an entirely different design than any acclamator I've seen. They have ventral hangers, a split at the nose... etc

We have comprehensive information on dimensions, speed, power output, shield strength, hull strength, armament, passengers, role, history and until recently removed by the Wookiee, fighter complements, on the Acclamator.

 

That is not unit lacking in substantial information, and was approved on good basis. This unit it would appear is of a different design, but it is a design we have substantial information on. In the end it would be in-genuine of myself to approve the use of this ship for Lady, and then repeal it mid-Kaggath, one match in, on the basis of unpopularity.

 

I'm afraid its here to stay, and we must do are best to accommodate for that.

Edited April 27, 2015 by Beniboybling

[tunewalker]

We have comprehensive information on dimensions, speed, power output, shield strength, hull strength, armament, passengers, role, history and until recently removed by the Wookiee, fighter complements, on the Acclamator.

 

That is not unit lacking in substantial information, and was approved on good basis. This unit it would appear is of a different design, but it is a design we have substantial information on. In the end it would be in-genuine of myself to approve the use of this ship for Lady, and then repeal it mid-Kaggath, one match in, on the basis of unpopularity.

 

I'm afraid its here to stay, and we must do are best to accommodate for that.

 

Ya its here, As the "acclamator I' which has no Fighter compliment to speak of. The amount of times some one DIDNT get what they THOUGHT they would have in a Kaggath is huge..... Classic Kaggath anyone..... Rebel Army......

[Beniboybling]

Ya its here, As the "acclamator I' which has no Fighter compliment to speak of. The amount of times some one DIDNT get what they THOUGHT they would have in a Kaggath is huge..... Classic Kaggath anyone..... Rebel Army......

I try my best, but I see no reason to make alterations at this point, considering this vessel exists.

[Wolfninjajedi]

You know what? Even in OCW, the Accalamaor didn't launch ANY fighters, it was shown as a planetary assault ship.

 

I just watched through the appearances it makes, in at no time did the Accalmators launch any fighters.

Edited April 27, 2015 by Wolfninjajedi

[tunewalker]

I try my best, but I see no reason to make alterations at this point, considering this vessel exists.

 

Does it? I see no record of it, we arent even clear that the "acclamators" you are talking about are even "Acclamators"

[tunewalker]

You know what? Even in OCW, the Accalamaor didn't launch ANY fighters, it was shown as a planetary assault ship.

 

I just watched through the appearances it makes, in at no time did the Accalmators launch any fighters.

 

Was just noticing that to...... I dont see an Acclamator Launching fighters at any point.

[Silenceo]

We have comprehensive information on dimensions, speed, power output, shield strength, hull strength, armament, passengers, role, history and until recently removed by the Wookiee, fighter complements, on the Acclamator.

 

That is not unit lacking in substantial information, and was approved on good basis. This unit it would appear is of a different design, but it is a design we have substantial information on. In the end it would be in-genuine of myself to approve the use of this ship for Lady, and then repeal it mid-Kaggath, one match in, on the basis of unpopularity.

 

I'm afraid its here to stay, and we must do are best to accommodate for that.

 

All due respect Beni, we have extremely little data on it... It is seen what, once? In the series of the Clone Wars that even in Legends continuity is considered non-cannon? Who is to say it wasn't a proto-type or such that was scrapped?

 

Heck, if such was applicable, too bad I didn't choose:

 

Enforcer: More firepower, same size, interdiction, better defense, more energy, more guns, same base hull...

 

Sadly, I can not find the prototypes that were based on the Vindicator... There were 2-3 of them and they were epic! Point being, there were ships said to be Vindicators, but experimental in design that are only seen once. Yet, such could be not be the basis for ships in the Kaggath for previous reasons. Nor do you have to take away the Acclamators, merely do not give them the fighters they do not have.

[StarSquirrel]

All due respect Beni, we have extremely little data on it... It is seen what, once? In the series of the Clone Wars that even in Legends continuity is considered non-cannon? Who is to say it wasn't a proto-type or such that was scrapped?

 

Heck, if such was applicable, too bad I didn't choose:

 

Enforcer: More firepower, same size, interdiction, better defense, more energy, more guns, same base hull...

 

Sadly, I can not find the prototypes that were based on the Vindicator... There were 2-3 of them and they were epic! Point being, there were ships said to be Vindicators, but experimental in design that are only seen once. Yet, such could be not be the basis for ships in the Kaggath for previous reasons. Nor do you have to take away the Acclamators, merely do not give them the fighters they do not have.

Again Beni,

 

rule #10, I'll quote it again for you if you'd like. Unless you're willing to permit everyone else to take units with no info, use the little (poorly supported) info we have on them, and go wild, then accept that the Acclamator's fighter-carrying variant (if there is one) is not fit for use in this match.

 

Also explain, why the hell would the Republic need two fighter carriers in the fleet? I mean, seriously does that not strike anyone else as ridiculous?

Edited April 27, 2015 by StarSquirrel

[Selenial]

We have comprehensive information on dimensions, speed, power output, shield strength, hull strength, armament, passengers, role, history and until recently removed by the Wookiee, fighter complements, on the Acclamator.

 

That is not unit lacking in substantial information, and was approved on good basis. This unit it would appear is of a different design, but it is a design we have substantial information on. In the end it would be in-genuine of myself to approve the use of this ship for Lady, and then repeal it mid-Kaggath, one match in, on the basis of unpopularity.

 

I'm afraid its here to stay, and we must do are best to accommodate for that.

 

The amount of "Deal with it's" you've given her fleet is frankly unprofessional and pretty aggravating. This is why we continuously ask you to actually let us publish faction lists...

 

Just my two cents, don't rage.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Was just noticing that to...... I dont see an Acclamator Launching fighters at any point.

 

Actually there is literally 1 whole scene like all of 2 seconds, where it does launch like...8 fighters, but this is inconsistent as the V-19s which are the ones being shown in OCW, have their own hyperdrives or hyperdrive rings, meaning they don't need a carrier.

 

Every other scene aside from that one inconsistency is the Acclamator launching strict ground forces. But whatever, if they wanna have the Acclamators here launching fighters, whatever. Though for next time they shouldn't be, as the Acclamators are a strict planetary invasion carrier.

Edited April 28, 2015 by Wolfninjajedi