How to play sin (hatred) in ranked?

[ForceOfFinland]

Guys i need advice. Started with ranked yesterday, played 11 or 12 matches for now, won 3 lost everything else...

I m using phase walk when its needed, stealth + deep stealth, electrocute, deflection... everything.

But, firstly, my damage isnt high enough (usually overall from 90-150K not more) and second, sometimes my system doesnt load me enemies on time!

This thing with damage... I dunno how to make higher one, because when im attacking and not defending, they r killing me too fast.

Please help!

[MisterPepssi]

Troll or nah?

[Floplag]

step 1, grab your dork

step 2, beat it on keyboard in general vicinity of keys that map to skills

step 3, profit

[Camelpockets]

step 1, grab your dork

step 2, beat it on keyboard in general vicinity of keys that map to skills

step 3, ???

step 4, profit

 

You missed a step

[ToMyMa]

Troll or nah?

 

Not a troll, played against him(her?) earlier. For further evidence, take a gander at the leaderboards.

 

To OP: Play some nwzs until you feel that you're good enough, and don't be afraid to ask for advice from other players.

[Exosasa]

Hoping this is a troll, and the above is just in on it.

 

If troll: s( ^_~)b

 

If not: ఠ_ఠ

[SkyLordJaden]

Doing the most damage in a match is not always the most important Thing. In ranked peeling for others, using taunts properly, and doing the right damage to the right person at the right time are all more important. That doesnt mean dot spread is a bad thing, it actually makes taking the correct people out a lot easier, but its more important that your team stays alive. If that means that "tank" then thats fine. Even if you die, hatred has the tools to stay alive until at least one or even two of the other team are dead, giving you a massive advantage.

[ForceOfFinland]

For those who suspected that im troll - no im definitely not a troll! If i was troll, would i ask for help here!?

For those who tried to help me - thank you very much.

But the problem still occurs... In normal warzones im good, because usually weaker players are playing it and nobody's targeting u, but when im attacked from 2 enemies at the same time in rwz AFTER actually spending half of my defences because i have big target above my head, i really cant persist in beating them so need to defend more, and more and more.

And while im defending, my other teammates r dead of course - and my dps is lower then tanks!

 

May somebody tell me how to use rotation in rwz when im targeted, to make big enough damage and defend well at the same time?

Edited March 18, 2015 by ForceOfFinland

[JarenWelen]

But the problem still occurs... In normal warzones im good, because usually weaker players are playing it and nobody's targeting u, but when im attacked from 2 enemies at the same time in rwz AFTER actually spending half of my defences because i have big target above my head, i really cant persist in beating them so need to defend more, and more and more.

And while im defending, my other teammates r dead of course - and my dps is lower then tanks!

 

The thing is, you're not meant to be an unkillable god. When multiple people attack you, you have three ways I can think of now to make them switch target: combat stealth, Phase Walk, and Shroud. The first two will have a minor hit on your damage output but a) you should have DoTs up and b) you can now come back into the fight while they're focusing on someone else. If they switch back to you then they're playing well with good awareness, GG to them.

 

I don't really understand what you mean by having to defend more: you work your defensive cooldowns into your play. Kite a bit if you need to but you have ranged attacks to keep damaging them. Plus your teammates should be trying to use their taunts and crowd control to help each other - if not then you're going to lose.

 

And while im defending, my other teammates r dead of course - and my dps is lower then tanks!

 

I think this right here is your problem. If your teammates are dead and you're trying to solo 2+ people, odds are you're not going to beat them unless they're exceptionally bad or you're exceptionally good. Forum advice won't affect either of these. If you're going into fights expecting to win when your entire team is dead, you're going to be disappointed.

[Jinre_the_Jedi]

In all honesty, if you are drawing the attention of 2 or even 3 people on the enemy team, then that's 100% good. Considering you have the defensive cooldowns to keep you alive for a MINIMUM of 21 seconds, the more focus fire on you, the better. While you're cc immune for 21 seconds, you're able to put out considerable damage and pressure to 4 targets at once, all while taking the focus off of your team, allowing them to basically free cast and rack up their damage numbers as well.

 

When you play an assassin, specifically a HATRED assassin, you should go in with the mindset of a sorcerer, instead of the mindset of a juggernaut. Currently, you have three 30m abilities, three 10 meter abilities, and 2 hard hitting 4 meter abilities. You also have a cumulative total of 7 seconds of roots, if you've spec'd into the correct utilities. Not to mention that you self heal for 25-100% of your damage, depending on the abilities, and if you have dots rolling on 4 targets at once and deathfield a cluster of 4 targets, you will easily heal for 3-5k health.

 

So what am I getting at with this? You have the tools to kite effectively like a sorc, while also having the defensive cooldowns to live an extended life like a juggernaut. Not to mention that you have 2 escapes, one of which you can use while cc'd (Phase Walk), and the other which lets you reset combat and heal to full. The point is, use these things to your advantage. Get into the mind of your opponent and predict when they will use what abilities and counter it with your own abilities. Run in and initiate the fight so that you take all the burst, so that your team doesn't have to, since you have the defensive cooldowns to turn the burst into a slap on the wrist.

 

To play hatred effectively, you have to first know how to play the assassin class effectively. To play assassin effectively, you have to know your enemy and what they're capable of. I'll help you a bit by outlining some very general ways to fight against other classes:

 

Sniper/Gunslinger: Force them to fight you around an object which you can utilize for line of sight. Generally, I will just spam 30m abilities and hide, allowing my dot damage to add up while I take 0 damage from line of sighting them. If you see the ambush cast incoming, but you're not around a line of sight object, you have 3 options:

 

1. Force Cloak to cancel the cast. I usually use this time to reopen on them with spike/spinning kick.

2. Pop Deflection and pray to RNGesus that they miss.

3. Pop Adrenal+Mass Mind Control for the 45% damage reduction that it will give. This will bring a 12k ambush down to a measly 6k-ish hit, which is more manageable in the long run.

 

Sorcerer/Sage: Also force these guys into an area where you can line of sight. The downside is that they can also do it, and even better than you can since all of their abilities are 30 meters. Close distance on them by opening from stealth, and only Force Speed in order to chase their Force Speed. Likewise, you can hard stun them when you see them casting force speed to waste theirs and save yours. This will mainly be a battle of attrition, and it comes down to who has the most patience. Don't feel rushed! If you have to wait 15 seconds for your force shroud, then do so, just bide your time by throwing hard/soft cc's. Biggest tip I can offer here:

 

1. After they barrier, wait until the remaining channel time is at 1.9 seconds. When you see this, start to channel your whirlwhind/Force Lift. This will make it so that as soon as their bubble drops, they will be cc'd for 8 seconds, allowing their enduring bastion shield to fall off, so that you don't waste any damage on the shield.

2. The most important ability to use while enduring bastion is still up is discharge/force breach, and then once it falls down, follow it up with a melee ability to proc your hard hitting vanquish/demolish.

 

Marauder/Sentinel: Respect their damage. They are weak defensively, so take advantage of that, and they are VERY susceptible to roots and knock backs. Save your knock back for Ravage/Master Strike, hard stun them when they pop Undying Rage/Guarded by the force. A large portion of their damage can be negated by simply rooting and running out of melee range. Abuse your 10m and 30m abilites to take as little damage possible while also dealing as much damage as possible.

 

Assassin/Shadow: To beat a good sin/shadow, you need to make them use their defensive abilities first. Most of them will open with Deflection so that they're cc immune. I will generally just root/kite while only using force abilities to minimize the amount of dodge/parried attacks I throw out. I take the utility to take 30% less damage while stunned, so if I see them lining up their burst (discharge into thrash for the auto crit assassinate into demolish proc) then I pop mass mind control and warzone adrenal. Usually they will stun you to ensure their burst can't be negated, and this will give me 30% DR while stunned + 15% DR from adrenal + 30% DR from aoe taunt. That adds up to 75% damage reduction + whatever your base DR is. Basically, this negates their burst for 6 seconds. Now you are in a superior position, as you still have your defensive cooldowns, while they have none. Exploit this weakness and win.

 

Juggernaut/Guardian: This is the hardest fight to win, as it is more difficult for you since your dots will auto-trigger their enraged defense self heal stacks. The best way to beat a juggernaut is patience. When they pop their Endure pain and enraged defense, cloak out and wait it out in stealth, once those 2 fall off then you have a better chance of winning, since they won't be able to heal to full. You want to abuse your roots here and stay within 10 meters so that they can't leap to you and gain cc immunity.

 

Mercenary/Commando: This is probably one of the easier fights to win. The biggest tip I can give here is that when they net you, and they will, STAND STILL. The net does MORE damage if you move, stacking up to 6 or 10 times, I can't remember exactly. So you can negate this by simply staying put. If push comes to shove, and you have NO choice and can't just eat the net damage, use your cc breaker to break the net, allowing you to escape via phase walk and cloak.

 

Powertech/Vanguard: Everything they have, with the exception of rail shot, can be shrouded. Use this to your advantage. If they pop their energy shield, cc them via whirlwhind, or anything, and just line of sight them until it wears off. When you are going to go for heavy burst, make sure NOT to stun them, as this will reduce your burst damage by 30%. Only stun them when you need to either stop incoming damage to yourself, or when they have up a defensive ability. When you trigger Kolto Overload, they don't benefit from the damage reduction while it's active if they're AP, so you can normally kill them through it, if you can't, then just kite. My biggest tip here is:

 

1. When they pop sonic the hedgehog hydrolics, if they have more health than you or are at an advantage, run them OPPOSITE of where your phase walk is placed, take them out about 50 meters, and then phase walk. This will force them to run 50-60 meters into the opposite direction, and will time out their Hydrolics and sometimes even energy shield.

 

Scoundrel/Operative: This will be the hardest fight that you will fight. If they are concealment, they simply out burst you, and because one of their advanced classes is a healer, they are privy to MUCH better self healing than you. They can kite you indefinitely while negating a large sum of your damage via their Roll mechanic. Lastly, they can cleanse your dots via evasion, and then if spec'd into it, cleanse them again via their combat stealth. In a straight up 1 versus 1, you should lose to a good operative, so all you can do here is either:

 

1. Take it to acid. Is it a **** move? Yup, sure is, but a win is a win, and that's your best chance of winning that fight.

2. Try to fight them. If you KNOW they are a less skilled player and don't know how to properly play their class, then exploit the fact that they are extremely vulnerable to roots. If they are rooted then they cannot troll roll, so use your roots to pin them down.

 

Lastly, I will sum this post up with some general tips that you may or may not have known that may help you win some future warzones.

 

1. Phase Walk can be used while you are stunned/cc'd. Use this to your advantage to get out of a disadvantageous situation while you are cc'd.

2. The Overload/Force Wave knock back root will work even when your enemy has full resolve. It is true that the knockback portion will be resisted due to full resolve, but the root portion will work, pinning down your target for 5 seconds, or if they take damage after 2 seconds. This is GREAT and pinning down an operative who is about to roll away.

3. Don't use force push/overload until AFTER an inquisitor/consular's force speed has ended. This will prevent them from being immune to the root portion of the effect.

4. Sometimes it's more beneficial to force cloak > Spike for as an interrupt if it will lock down a healer for a killing blow instead of using Phase Walk > Force Cloak to heal to full.

5. If you are in a 2v1 situation, or even 2v2 situation and you've phase walked > Force cloaked to heal to full, sometimes it's better to run back into the fight before you achieve full health, as leaving your partner to 1v2 can sometimes lead to a loss. Judge this on a case by case scenario though.

6. For the most part, don't combine Force Shroud with Deflection if you don't have to. This cuts your cc immunity time in half.

7. Biggest tip I can offer: Sometimes it's better to just eat damage as opposed to using a big defensive cd, such as deflection or shroud. If I run into 4 enemies, I know I will be hard stunned, so I will pop mass mind control + warzone adrenal for 45% DR, then they will inevitably stun me, giving me an additional 30% DR. In a situation like this, I will simply eat all the damage thrown at me for 6 seconds, and then most of it will be recovered by using Overcharge Saber/Battle Readiness as well as a 4 man Deathfield/Force in Balance. Knowing when to just take damage and when to pop defensive cooldowns will be what makes or breaks a good assassin or shadow.

8. When fighting on a map with 2 tiers (Makeb, Orbital Station), place your Phase Walk at the top tier. When things are going south, jump down, if you're low health, your enemy will jump down with you to chase, allowing you to phase walk back up top and waste a good 10-15 seconds of their time running back up. This also forces the enemy team to 3v4, since one of their members is below, but you and your team will ideally still be up top on tier 2 of the map.

9. Phase walk is very versatile for juking. Practice juking out your enemy in various ways. Get a good feel for how far you can leash out before you're out of range of phase walk. It takes practice, but eventually it becomes second nature.

 

This is only a small portion of a wide array of knowledge I've accumulated over the 2 years I've played this class. I hope that at least some of this information could be of help.

Edited March 18, 2015 by Jinre_the_Jedi

[Evolixe]

^

 

And this is exactly why I don't like making "PvP Guides"

Because half of your information is incomplete or in certain situations even plain false. But you don't mention it.

 

I don't blame you for that as it would increase the size of the post by a factor 3 at the very least.. but the point I'm trying to make is that there's a million and one things that can happen. And you're supposed to learn what best to do by rationalizing and instinct on your own. It's the only way to account for every possible outcome.

 

Taking a guideline and treating them as a set of rules not to be broken will perhaps put you on a path to some success. But you will never become an actual good player that way.

Edited March 18, 2015 by Evolixe

[Floplag]

You missed a step

 

is there another on in that case?

i know thats the usual form but in this case i didnt see the need

[Jinre_the_Jedi]

^

 

And this is exactly why I don't like making "PvP Guides"

Because half of your information is incomplete or in certain situations even plain false. But you don't mention it.

 

I don't blame you for that as it would increase the size of the post by a factor 3 at the very least.. but the point I'm trying to make is that there's a million and one things that can happen. And you're supposed to learn what best to do by rationalizing and instinct on your own. It's the only way to account for every possible outcome.

 

Taking a guideline and treating them as a set of rules not to be broken will perhaps put you on a path to some success. But you will never become an actual good player that way.

 

If I took the time out to sit down and type EVERYTHING the goes into being a good assassin/shadow player, I would have a novel. I very explicitly stated in the beginning of the post, "these are some VERY GENERAL tips to help you".

 

In a real warzone, you will rarely have the opportunity to 1 v 1, so a good portion of the 1v1 material that I've listed is only used to serve as guidelines for what to expect when you see a class who is targeting you. Realistically, you will be assailed by multiple players at once, so you actually have to think about what multiple people will be throwing out at you at once, which complicates things, but it's possible, and can be done. But it is literally impossible to give explicit tips on how to win a 4v4 warzone, since every warzone is dynamic, and no two warzones are the same. This means that you need to deploy various different strategies each time and utilize plays that will give you the most success to winning the arena.

 

So yes, I'm aware that a large portion of that information is incorrect in a true 4v4 situation, but now he has more information than he had before, which is better than nothing. Maybe instead of attempting to tear down my post, you can help him with tips as well, since making comments on my post does not help him play assassin any better.

[Jinre_the_Jedi]

Lastly, I will say this. Experience is the best teacher. You can read guides all day, and take tips from top players to the best of your ability, but practicing and playing actual arenas are the only way you will understand how far you can push the envelope and know the limits of your class. Unfortunately, there is no guide for experience, as this is only accumulated over time via trial and error.

 

@ the OP, just do the best you can and every time you lose, identify what YOU did wrong that had you done it differently, would've ended up in a victory instead of a defeat. Then, amend those mistakes for next time, so that you don't consistently make the same mistake over and over.

[MasterFeign]

I've also learned a lot, from OWPvp. Granted it's been quite dead, but getting people on Yavin 4, or attracting capped levels to outposts, or when the outlaw's den was more popular, helped me figure out how to play my class, outside of the objective heavy WZs.

 

Also playing all other classes help as well.

[Jinre_the_Jedi]

Also playing all other classes help as well.

 

^This. The more you know about other classes, the better you will be at predicting your enemy.

[Evolixe]

 

So yes, I'm aware that a large portion of that information is incorrect in a true 4v4 situation, but now he has more information than he had before, which is better than nothing. Maybe instead of attempting to tear down my post, you can help him with tips as well, since making comments on my post does not help him play assassin any better.

 

I don't necessarily agree with that.

There is such a thing as too much at the same time. Also, 9/10 people that are still learners in this game will treat any advice that makes halfwhat sense like a holy grail. "Don't dare to have your own opinion about a situation because that might be wrong". Is what I'm trying to avoid at all costs.

 

The best way for someone to develop, is for them to do it own their own. They just need to be willing and selfaware.

Because the metal boxes of "Oh but I don't need to get any better because..." or "I think I'm good enough for what I like" are fatal.

Edited March 18, 2015 by Evolixe

[DomiSotto]

Kre’a, next NaNoWriMo is not that far away if you decide to expand on the short story. Thank you. The AC vs AC format is fantastic.

 

It takes efforts to learn to ride a bike, but it would have been an unsurmountable task for the most of us, if it started with inventing the wheel. More would successes if they were given a bike. Even more when they saw someone else ride a bike… etc.

[Jinre_the_Jedi]

Kre’a, next NaNoWriMo is not that far away if you decide to expand on the short story. Thank you. The AC vs AC format is fantastic.

 

It takes efforts to learn to ride a bike, but it would have been an unsurmountable task for the most of us, if it started with inventing the wheel. More would successes if they were given a bike. Even more when they saw someone else ride a bike… etc.

 

I could try to expand more on the niches of shadow/sin but what Evolixe stated is true, the best and only way you can actually get better is by diving in and learning for yourself.

 

Perfect example of this actually, I have 2 assassins. Last season, my first assassin was rated 841 ELO. I lost A LOT of games, but I never quit, I kept on queuing and eventually learned the ins and outs of the class. I made another assassin and tried my luck at solo ranked again, this time I achieved a rating of 1641.

 

My point is, it took a ton of losses and examining my mistakes until I was finally able to create a strategy that worked for me in solo queue. While I'm not the best assassin by far, I am better, FAR better than I was a year ago. Experience is truly the best teacher.

[DomiSotto]

I understand and accept the point you both are making, yet every time I read a guide or a discussion I come across things that would never have occurred to me. The creativity you guys show is simply amazing to me. I neither play a Shadow/Sin, nor intend to, but I appreciate seeing the thought process in the strategy sketches you've presented.

[Evolixe]

I understand and accept the point you both are making, yet every time I read a guide or a discussion I come across things that would never have occurred to me. The creativity you guys show is simply amazing to me. I neither play a Shadow/Sin, nor intend to, but I appreciate seeing the thought process in the strategy sketches you've presented.

 

Watch streams. The second best way to learn and improve is watching what others do indirectly.

(As watching and evaluating it directly is exactly what personal experience is all about)

 

You can always ask a player why he chose to do what he did. They might not always answer you, but it's worth the shot everytime. I don't actually have a sub anymore, but I could do 1 last stream tonight if you're genuinely interested.

 

 

Mind you even the best players in the game make mistakes on a regular basis. The only difference with Jack Nextdoor is that they learn from it and take it up for if there ever comes a "next time" or similar/comparable situation.

Edited March 18, 2015 by Evolixe

[RodneyMcNeely]

^

 

And this is exactly why I don't like making "PvP Guides"

Because half of your information is incomplete or in certain situations even plain false. But you don't mention it.

 

I don't blame you for that as it would increase the size of the post by a factor 3 at the very least.. but the point I'm trying to make is that there's a million and one things that can happen. And you're supposed to learn what best to do by rationalizing and instinct on your own. It's the only way to account for every possible outcome.

 

Taking a guideline and treating them as a set of rules not to be broken will perhaps put you on a path to some success. But you will never become an actual good player that way.

So providing a good, solid starting point is a bad thing?

 

Evo, I swear. You have got to be the most contrary human being on Planet Earth. There is absolutely no good reason for you to step in a crap all over someone trying to be helpful.

 

It's good, solid information that will most likely make this player better.

 

But, nooooooooooooooooooooooooo. The self-proclaimed "best player in the game" isn't happy unless he's vomiting venom all over the place.

 

You need about 6 months of intensive therapy. And I'm not even kidding.

 

[Evolixe]

So providing a good, solid starting point is a bad thing?

 

Evo, I swear. You have got to be the most contrary human being on Planet Earth. There is absolutely no good reason for you to step in a crap all over someone trying to be helpful.

 

It's good, solid information that will most likely make this player better.

 

But, nooooooooooooooooooooooooo. The self-proclaimed "best player in the game" isn't happy unless he's vomiting venom all over the place.

 

You need about 6 months of intensive therapy. And I'm not even kidding.

 

 

You need to read my posts more carefully before you start making comments. Seriously.

 

I'm not going to repeat myself, I very clearly explained why I said what I did.

[RodneyMcNeely]

You need to read my posts more carefully before you start making comments. Seriously.

 

I'm not going to repeat myself, I very clearly explained why I said what I did.

I did. And it was jam-packed with snark wrapped in a thin veneer of nicety.

 

If this were the only post in which you gushed negativity, I wouldn't have thought a second thing about it.

 

But it's a pattern with you, and - apparently - you're the only one who doesn't see it.

 

Either that, or you just don't give a damn.

[Evolixe]

or you just don't give a damn.

 

Your opinion about my behaviour of coming across really doesn't concern me.

It's only the point that really matters.